Breaking News - Brown to resign, Labour entering negotiations with the Liberals

[dune]

Yep, you're right - a bit like the Tory alliances in Europe. You'd have UKIP and the BNP....good luck with that.

 

Not the BNP, but yes UKIP would be a loyal member of the Conservative block.

 

Gone would be the days of centre ground politics.

[View From The Top]

Works in Germany, works in Sweden, works in Belgium, works in Switzerland, works in Ireland what makes you think it can't work here?

 

Stanley said so and Stanley has been right all along with his election predictions.

[dune]

Stanley said so and Stanley has been right all along with his election predictions.

 

It could work, but PR would deliver hardline politics and each successive change of govt would be all about undoing what the last lot did.

[View From The Top]

Not the BNP, but yes UKIP would be a loyal member of the Conservative block.

 

Gone would be the days of centre ground politics.

 

I would see it as bringing politics to the centre, which will disappoint you of course as you've been saying how you want the tories to lurch to the right.

[revolution saint]

Not the BNP, but yes UKIP would be a loyal member of the Conservative block.

 

Gone would be the days of centre ground politics.

 

So by that I can infer you believe UKIP are not centre ground? If you wanted centre ground then why didn't you vote for your centre ground Tory party?

[View From The Top]

It could work, but PR would deliver hardline politics and each successive change of govt would be all about undoing what the last lot did.

 

I agree that you'd have hardline at the extremes but the major parties would, IMHO, shift to the centre where the majority of the UK electorate are situated.

[dune]

I agree that you'd have hardline at the extremes but the major parties would, IMHO, shift to the centre where the majority of the UK electorate are situated.

 

I disagree because UKIP would do well under PR with voters knowing tha a vote for UKIP is a vote for the Conservative coalition. In respect of the right wing block it would push the block away from the centre.

 

The same would happen with the leftwing block - as Labour loses proportional influence it would become more leftwing..

[dune]

So by that I can infer you believe UKIP are not centre ground? If you wanted centre ground then why didn't you vote for your centre ground Tory party?

 

I've explained before that i'd be happy when the Conservative block was in power with UKIP because we'd get a referendum on such things as banning the Burkha (a ukip policy), but a coin has both sides and it'd be horrible to live under a leftie coalition.

 

n'b i've used the Burkha point as i'm sure those on theft would have a fit of the vapours if we did have this referendum so ask yourself do you want PR and such politics in govt? Because if we did get PR you'll have made the bed so you'll bloody well have to lie in it.

Edited 10 May, 2010 by dune

[revolution saint]

I disagree because UKIP would do well under PR with voters knowing tha a vote for UKIP is a vote for the Conservative coalition. In respect of the right wing block it would push the block away from the centre.

 

The same would happen with the leftwing block - as Labour loses proportional influence it would become more leftwing..

 

And that's how you justified your vote for UKIP you nutter! You wanted a more right wing Tory party! Or do you now disagree with yourself (not for the first time).

[gary r]

another un elected cretin to run the country then

[Guided Missile]

When is anyone going to realise that the issue is no longer the parties, but the policies and there is only one issue that requires a strong policy and that is the massive debts run up under Labour? All of the parties agree that cuts will have to be made in public spending. The only argument is when they have to be made. If we don't get this right, it is hardly going to be possible to finance the other policies that each party wants to enact after the next election.

 

Watching Clegg and Brown, just demonstrates how much these two grubby, unprincipled politicians have learnt from the Mugabe school of "Holding on to Power". All their supporters can continue to sing along to their "Politics of Envy" tune, but I can foresee, if we allow their leaky boat to set sail, that we'll soon be printing £10,000 notes, that will fuel the fires, that will be burning on the barricades in London...

[dune]

And that's how you justified your vote for UKIP you nutter! You wanted a more right wing Tory party! Or do you now disagree with yourself (not for the first time).

 

Thanks for proving my point. You are having a hissy fit about the UKIP policy of banning the Burkha yet you want a PR voting system that will give UKIP great sway when a right wing coalition comes into power. Make your mind up, you either want PR warts and all or you don't.

[View From The Top]

another un elected cretin to run the country then

 

 

You do understand how it works don't you?

[dune]

Watching Clegg and Brown, just demonstrates how much these two grubby, unprincipled politicians have learnt from the Mugabe school of "Holding on to Power". All their supporters can continue to sing along to their "Politics of Envy" tune, but I can foresee, if we allow their leaky boat to set sail, that we'll soon be printing £10,000 notes, that will fuel the fires, that will be burning on the barricades in London...

 

This is the truth.

[View From The Top]

Thanks for proving my point. You are having a hissy fit about the UKIP policy of banning the Burkha yet you want a PR voting system that will give UKIP great sway when a right wing coalition comes into power. Make your mind up, you either want PR warts and all or you don't.

 

Talk about miss the point. Like myself he's pointing out that your decision to vote for UKIP was to jolt the tories to the right and now your mithering that it's the end of centre based politics.

 

UKIP, BNP AN Other poll votes and so should have a place in Parliament no matter how odious we may find their politics. I call it democracy.

[MorningtonCrescent]

Works in Germany, works in Japan, works in Sweden, works in Belgium, works in Switzerland, works in Ireland what makes you think it can't work here?

 

India's current coalition consits of 13 different parties.

 

You may correct in stating that there are coalition governments in all these places, but how are judging that they "work"?

 

I know of many people who have lived and worked in Belgium (for example) who would tell you that coalition government has NOT worked there.

 

Also, Italy has a coalition government, does it not? Did you decide NOT to include that in your list as it has clearly let the electorate down by bringing fraudsters to power on a regular basis?

 

Coalitions DON'T work, history proves that. The strongest countries in the world are those who have a rulers with the power to make the difficult decisions and to drive through their policies. This will never be able to "please all the people all the time", but at least it gets things done.

 

PR/AV or any other form of watering down of the system leads to backroom deals and horsetrading over "power issues". Unfortunate, but true.

 

The fact that someone with only 23% of the vote (and the ONLY party who stood for PR in their manifesto) can use that as the "deal breaker" in discusions and ultimately be the people who decide who resides in No 10, is frankly absurd.

 

And before I get "labelled" as another "nazi".... I also don't believe the current system does deliver a fair outcome, when 23% of the vote can equal such a small return in seats. I'm just not advocating that I know of a better system that can deliver strong government.

 

None of the "main" parties completely reflect my thoughts and views on how the country should be run - and that is failure in having "party politics" at all....

 

FWIW - I believe we should have regional assemblies in place of all current levels of government. Local, County and National. One assembly elected by the local people to run all the services in the area (maybe by county, or even a slightly larger area). Those Asemblies would then elect a number of those members who would represent the area in London, in Parliament, based on the proportional split of the Assembly. Perhaps this could be the "second house", as I am also not a major fan of the Lords (either elected or otherwise).

 

It probably wouldn't work, but as I said - I don't have the answers. I just know I would rather have a FPTP system that can deliver a majority government (of whichever flavour), than continuous PR and coalition governments.

[dune]

Talk about miss the point. Like myself he's pointing out that your decision to vote for UKIP was to jolt the tories to the right and now your mithering that it's the end of centre based politics.

 

I'm saying that PR will be a nightmare when the lefties are in power from my perspective, and equally you are your lefty pals will be going divvy when the right wing coalition is in power. If PR happens i'll bet it's you lot that complain the most though.

[Ludwig]

Coalitions DON'T work, history proves that. The strongest countries in the world are those who have a rulers with the power to make the difficult decisions and to drive through their policies. This will never be able to "please all the people all the time", but at least it gets things done.

 

I was under the impression that right-wing supporters always hark back towards the 'glory days' in which the second world war was won, remind me what government we were under? Was the coalition under Lloyd George prior to that, encompassing the first world war, unworkable?

[View From The Top]

I'm saying that PR will be a nightmare when the lefties are in power from my perspective, and equally you are your lefty pals will be going divvy when the right wing coalition is in power. If PR happens i'll bet it's you lot that complain the most though.

 

Not judging by the mithering on this board.

 

I happen to believe that every vote should count. I've always believed that and I always will. Idealistic I know.

[TopGun]

another un elected cretin to run the country then

 

What a cretinous remark.

[TopGun]

Cat amongst the pigeon times however you look at it now.

 

Almost impossible to predict what will happen in the next six months and what ultimate outcome that brings about.

[GenevaSaint]

Not judging by the mithering on this board.

 

I happen to believe that every vote should count. I've always believed that and I always will. Idealistic I know.

 

I must admit regardless of the rights and wrong, it strike me the right don't want PR as they'll probably struggle to gain power again. The Lib Dems and Labour are far more "aligned" then the Tories and LibDems.

[dune]

Not judging by the mithering on this board.

 

I happen to believe that every vote should count. I've always believed that and I always will. Idealistic I know.

 

You whinge and whine about when Thatcher was in power. If PR comes about and UKIP and the Conservatives and the DUP get into power you'll spontaneously combust.

 

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

 

Galatians VI

[GenevaSaint]

What a cretinous remark.

 

TopGun are you going to let Gary know that we vote for parties not individuals....... Or shall we let him fester is his strange little world :-)

[dune]

I must admit regardless of the rights and wrong, it strike me the right don't want PR as they'll probably struggle to gain power again. The Lib Dems and Labour are far more "aligned" then the Tories and LibDems.

 

Do you really think that under PR the British public would never want anything but the Leftwing Comunist Coalition Party?

[GenevaSaint]

Do you really think that under PR the British public would never want anything but the Leftwing Comunist Coalition Party?

 

I really don't think it would be that leftwing, as I posted somewhere yesterday. I personally think it will bring politics to the centre away from the wild left to right swings of Labour and the Conservatives.

[Saintandy666]

Would people stop using this bull**** phrase 'unelected prime minister'. In the UK, we elect MPs who then lend legitimacy to a group of MPs form a government. It's called parliamentary democracy and if you don't like it change the system to what the USA has.

 

If they wanted to 326 random mps could tomorrow form the **** party and they would be in government.

 

Oh, and all this ******** about coalitions being awful. Political parties are coalitions full of tendencies and factions!!!! They all overlap and to be honest, everything and everyone is full of ****. The end.

[badgerx16]

The strongest countries in the world are those who have a rulers with the power to make the difficult decisions and to drive through their policies.

Out of curiosity, give us some examples.

[GenevaSaint]

You whinge and whine about when Thatcher was in power. If PR comes about and UKIP and the Conservatives and the DUP get into power you'll spontaneously combust.

 

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Galatians VI

 

There's only one massive group of whingers on here at the moment, and it's not the left of centre brigade I can tell you that. Really you tory voters should really go back and read this in 12 months when the dust has settled.

[dune]

I really don't think it would be that leftwing, as I posted somewhere yesterday. I personally think it will bring politics to the centre away from the wild left to right swings of Labour and the Conservatives.

 

How have you come to this conclusion? How would the rightwing block be comprised (parties) and how would the leftwing block be comprised (parties)?

[View From The Top]

You whinge and whine about when Thatcher was in power. If PR comes about and UKIP and the Conservatives and the DUP get into power you'll spontaneously combust.

 

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

 

Galatians VI

 

She was ousted over a generation ago and the world has moved on since then.

 

I happen to believe every vote should count then and I still do now. It's not right that a tory in Labour heatlands and a Labour supporter in tory heartlands vote doesn't count due to geography.

 

I would also suggest that your whinging and whining on this thread sums you and your politics up nicely.

[GenevaSaint]

How have you come to this conclusion? How would the rightwing block be comprised (parties) and how would the leftwing block be comprised (parties)?

 

I just make it up as you do with most of your comments on here Dune.

 

It's a personal opinion that's all. I believe (rightly or wrongly) that coallitions would provide a more mellow experience of the left and right. The problem with asking for parties is that we don't know the make up of the PR parliament so it's a bit hard to tell.

 

Left leaning.....

Labour, SDLP, Greens, SNP, Plaid Cymru. Not sure about the latter two as they'll sell themselves to the highest bidder!

 

Leftish Leaning

LibDems

 

Right Leaning.....

Conservatives, DUP, UUP, UKIP

 

Far Right... BNP

[dune]

Left leaning.....

Labour, SDLP, Greens, SNP, Plaid Cymru. Not sure about the latter two as they'll sell themselves to the highest bidder!

 

Leftish Leaning

LibDems

 

Right Leaning.....

Conservatives, DUP, UUP, UKIP

 

Far Right... BNP

 

So are you saying the Liberals will be a yo yo party?

[ecuk268]

Out of curiosity, give us some examples.

 

Well Germany - the economic success story of Europe.

 

Oh, hang on, they're ruled by a coalition.

[trousers]

Would people stop using this bull**** phrase 'unelected prime minister'.

 

You are, of course, technically correct, but to suggest that the leader of the party isn't a significant influence on who people vote for is to stick one's head in the sand somewhat

[badgerx16]

You are, of course, technically correct, but to suggest that the leader of the party isn't a significant influence on who people vote for is to stick one's head in the sand somewhat

John Major was an 'unelected' PM for the first part of his tenure. Churchill was 'unelected' as leader in WW2.

[revolution saint]

Thanks for proving my point. You are having a hissy fit about the UKIP policy of banning the Burkha yet you want a PR voting system that will give UKIP great sway when a right wing coalition comes into power. Make your mind up, you either want PR warts and all or you don't.

 

At what point did I ever express an opinion on the Burkha? Only a right wing immigrant obsessed idiot would ever bring that up and think that it would matter to anyone let alone me. You can keep your small minded opinions - your priorities are not mine.

 

Talk about miss the point. Like myself he's pointing out that your decision to vote for UKIP was to jolt the tories to the right and now your mithering that it's the end of centre based politics.

 

UKIP, BNP AN Other poll votes and so should have a place in Parliament no matter how odious we may find their politics. I call it democracy.

 

Thank you.

[Matthew Le God]

to suggest that the leader of the party isn't a significant influence on who people vote for is to stick one's head in the sand somewhat

 

That is fault of the electorate not the political party.

 

Having TV debates doesn't help, makes it too presidential. Most people couldn't name the candidate they voted for probably in this election and instead just the leaders(though some probably don't even know them).

Edited 10 May, 2010 by Matthew Le God

[Whitey Grandad]

How does the choice of Speaker affect the arithmetic?

[Johnny Bognor]

John Major was an 'unelected' PM for the first part of his tenure. Churchill was 'unelected' as leader in WW2.

 

 

John Major was elected by the MP's which were chosen by the electorate to represent them.

 

Brown was given the job without a single vote being cast. There is a difference......

[revolution saint]

John Major was an 'unelected' PM for the first part of his tenure. Churchill was 'unelected' as leader in WW2.

 

John Major was elected by the MP's which were chosen by the electorate to represent them.

 

Brown was given the job without a single vote being cast. There is a difference......

 

What bit of "first part of his tenure" don't you understand? Fact is you NEVER vote for a PM in this country. If you want a presidential system then argue for it.

[badgerx16]

John Major was elected by the MP's which were chosen by the electorate to represent them.

 

And that electorate voted for Maggie, not the Grey Man

[bridge too far]

How does the choice of Speaker affect the arithmetic?

 

It won't - the Speaker is neutral:

 

http://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/principal/speaker/

[Thedelldays]

And that electorate voted for Maggie, not the Grey Man

the electorate voted for their local MP....etc

[Johnny Bognor]

What bit of "first part of his tenure" don't you understand? Fact is you NEVER vote for a PM in this country. If you want a presidential system then argue for it.

 

 

John Major won a leadership election in the party. Can you remind me how Brown was selected?

[badgerx16]

John Major won a leadership election in the party. Can you remind me how Brown was selected?

The semantic argument says by an uncontested election within the PLP, the main point aimed at Gordy by the right was that he didn't get an electoral mandate, neither did Major, so stop trying to avoid the facts.

[solentstars]

Yup, PR at the next election and Stanley knows that's the end of the two party system. A system which suited both left and right far more than PR will.

 

No wonder the teddy has come flying out of the pram.

 

yep and it would be great to end the two party love in,poor old stanley his facist tendencies are started to show.

[Johnny Bognor]

The semantic argument says by an uncontested election within the PLP, the main point aimed at Gordy by the right was that he didn't get an electoral mandate, neither did Major, so stop trying to avoid the facts.

 

Thatcher went which triggered a leadership election.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election,_1990

 

Therefore John Major was an elected Prime Minister.

 

Brown was given the job and it was a total stich up between Blair and Brown. Had the Labour party voted for and got Brown, he would have had more legitimacy. As it was, we all got stuck with Gordon the Moron by default. Now he has gone, I hope the Labour party go through the process of choosing a leader rather than handing the batton on to Medolsomes new bum boy.

[Whitey Grandad]

 

Well Germany - the economic success story of Europe.

 

Oh, hang on, they're ruled by a coalition.

Are you suggesting that Germany's economic prowess is due to them having PR?

[Whitey Grandad]

The semantic argument says by an uncontested election within the PLP, the main point aimed at Gordy by the right was that he didn't get an electoral mandate, neither did Major, so stop trying to avoid the facts.

Major did at least win a General Election.