Cameron must be absolutely gutted

[Joensuu]

Appears to me the best way for the deal with parties like the BNP, etc, is to let them get elected for a few seats so that people can see them for what they are. Look at that council in London (name escapes me) where last time BNP got some councillors, this election they all went I believe. Plus its questionable if you can extrapolate from the results for FPTP to apply the figures to a PR system as many of the votes for minor parties could well have been protest votes where the people knew their candidate was not going to get elected but wanted to send a message. I would hope that in a PR system where (almost) every vote counts that the electorate would spend more time considering the policies of all parties rather than just plumping for a protest vote for party x.

 

Barking & Dagenham. BNP currently have 19 councillors nationally, last week they had 45.

 

Bizarrely, in the local elections people swung away from both the Lib Dems and Tories to Labour. Labour gained 15 councils and 420 councillors last week.

[Wes Tender]

yes and lets see the diehards from the robert mugabe schools of politics justifying the first past the post system:) even michael portillo who was a diehard supporter has changed his mind and said the present system is not Representative of the will of the people.

 

Who are the Marxists posting on here?

[Joensuu]

Who are the Marxists posting on here?

 

Assume he means Authoritarians not Marxists. Authoritarians, whether left or right will do anything they can to retain power, hense their support of the biased FPTP system.

[Mao Cap]

A pretty slick and well-run campaign. Huge advertising revenue paid for by mates in the City. Six of the nine national newspapers performing fellatio on DC and pausing only ot spit what was in their mouths at Brown/Clegg for four whole weeks (with the others pretty lukewarm either way except the Mirror). A deeply unpopular PM who got himself into a PR disaster a few days before the election. A knackered government who most people (including many on the left) would do nearly anything to kick out. The Lib Dems doing slightly better as a proportion of the vote, but most people who said they would vote for them actually bottling it at the last minute.

 

Failing to get a majority and receiving only 38% (I think?) of the vote is a pretty poor payoff with all the above factors on your side. Hard to see what the Tories can do to win any more people over. They could do the immigrant-hating, gay-bashing, prison-building, Mail/Express, frothing at the mouth type stuff, but that certainly didn't get them anywhere in 2001 or 2005.

 

Some proper monetarist 80s sh*t? - cutting services (the amount you can save from "reducing waste" is actually f*ck-all in macroeconomic terms) trying to break public sector unions etc. would be greeted ecstatically by the right of the party and the Tory heartlands, but only significantly higher taxes can really make a difference to the deficit over the next few years. Impose them, and the City and wealthy start to get fractious and give it their usual horsesh*t about moving to Dubai and so on. Don't impose them, and the opposition parties can point out the skyrocketing inequality and that the cuts aren't even achieving what they're supposed to.

 

Some euro-bashing might be useful with what's going on at the moment, but then you'd have to acknowledge Gordon Brown's role in keeping Britain out of the single currency. The straight bananas, "paedo immigrants given £1m under Human Rights Act" is just more populist preaching to the converted.

 

This has turned out incredibly long, but yeah - poor level of support considering the most favourable circumstances for 13 years (longer than that, if anything).

[solentstars]

Assume he means Authoritarians not Marxists. Authoritarians, whether left or right will do anything they can to retain power, hense their support of the biased FPTP system.

 

yes i think you know the Authoritarians is what i was getting at and was not surprised by the first person to reply;)

[Fuengirola Saint]

Not a lot of interest in this debate. The election was a poisoned chalice for whoever won it. Labour left the Country in such a parlous state economically that the medicine that needs to be taken to put us back on our feet is so nasty, that the electorate would almost certainly vote out the party having to administer it, at the next election.

 

Fuengirola posts his opinion and says "end of", but typically carries on posting. He left this Country because he couldn't stand the Conservatives, but feels qualified to comment on them, even though his opinions are diluted through lack of personal experience of everyday life here.

 

 

 

Well, you're a Mirror reader.

 

Irishsaint makes his comments invalid as being fair and balanced because of his second line, which exposes him as a political bigot. He goes on to list those European states whose economies are on the verge of meltdown and claims that it is a global problem. It doesn't seem to occur that the problems might lie with the EU, where all of those economies are in a straight-jacket, unable to regulate their own economies when they overheat or fail. The fact that there are other countries that have largely escaped the impact of the widespread economic downturn, argues the point that it is a global phenomenon.

 

VFTT uses such language about Dune that I thought was supposed to be worthy of an infraction.

 

Like Andynorthern who calls Delldays thick, for a perfectly reasonable comment, they both lose the argument because they have to resort to name-calling rather than debating the points raised.

 

Geneva Saint points out that the PR system of voting works perfectly well in Germany, whilst ignoring the opposite case in Italy, which has had more changes of Government since the war than any other country in the civilised democratic World.

 

Saintandy points out that there were an extra million Lid/Dem votes this time around and believes it was because they had the right policies. Regrettably for him, the truth of the matter was that most of those extra votes were because the electorate were urged by Labour to vote tactically to stop the Conservatives getting elected and also because Clegg came across well as the "triumph of presentation over substance candidate" in the televised debates.

 

Andy56 is closer to the mark of what will probably happen one way or another, with whoever has to administer the medicine getting a kicking from the electorate the next time around. For that reason, I hope that the Lib/Dems and Labour hammer out a deal, igniting public resentment if Brown tries to cling on in Number 10. But when he calls on there to be electoral reform so that the Conservatives are never elected again, I conversely call on electoral reform to remove the Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs and to form an English Parliament. If all of those bleating about how unfair the electoral system is had any sense of fair play, they would agree that this is the most unfair situation of all, those "Countries" having their own Parliaments/Assemblies, ability to influence our English affairs while we have no say in theirs.

 

 

Not really a Mirror reader, more El Pais,I think i have the right to comment on the Tories having lived through the nightmare years 79-97

[Wes Tender]

Some euro-bashing might be useful with what's going on at the moment, but then you'd have to acknowledge Gordon Brown's role in keeping Britain out of the single currency.

 

And what was that exactly? Refusing to hold a referendum on whether we joined the Euro? But on the other hand, signing up to the Treaty of Nice without offering the electorate an opportunity to vote via a referendum on whether they approved to the further loss of sovereignty that entailed?

 

And yet he proposes to hold a referendum on our electoral system. Hypocrite!

[Whitey Grandad]

They still have a national parliament, The Bundestag

Yes but there is an extra layer beneath as we have seen with Nordrhein-Westfalen yesterday. What I am saying is that direct comparisons with the German political system can be misleading.

[Whitey Grandad]

Not really a Mirror reader, more El Pais,I think i have the right to comment on the Tories having lived through the nightmare years 79-97

That's strange, my nightmare started in 1997

[Wes Tender]

Assume he means Authoritarians not Marxists. Authoritarians, whether left or right will do anything they can to retain power, hense their support of the biased FPTP system.

 

No, I did meant Marxists. Not really a very good example to quote Mugabe, was it, solentstars?

 

And so by your definition, Gordon Brown is authoritarian, as he is attempting to cling to power, even accepting the possibility of changing the voting system to achieve it. But then he has changed his mind on the FPTP system all of a sudden, even though Labour had 13 years to do something about it. So as GB's position undermines your example in connection of the FPTP system, it wasn't a particularly good example, was it?

[Wes Tender]

That's strange, my nightmare started in 1997

Mine too. It just goes to show, one person's nightmare is another's dream.

[View From The Top]

VFTT uses such language about Dune that I thought was supposed to be worthy of an infraction.

 

All of which is true.

 

Stanley has attended NF marches. He does believe that the white races are superior to the black and brown races due to a warped view of Darwin. He has supported the BNP. He has said that he questions the holocaust ever took place. He has said that Nazi Germany was "misunderstood".

 

Dune may like to forget what Stanley said but some if us have long memories.

[Mao Cap]

And what was that exactly? Refusing to hold a referendum on whether we joined the Euro? But on the other hand, signing up to the Treaty of Nice without offering the electorate an opportunity to vote via a referendum on whether they approved to the further loss of sovereignty that entailed?

 

And yet he proposes to hold a referendum on our electoral system. Hypocrite!

 

The issues around treaties and sovereignty and all that crap have little visible effect on peoples' lives and are only a matter of interest to hardcore Tory and UKIP types, whose votes those parties can rely upon anyway.

 

To your average floating voter (i.e. vaguely anti-EU but not really too bothered, Europe seems to consistently come last in most lists of voters' concerns) the only thing that might bother them would be an actual move towards joining the euro, as a big and visible step that would have a substantial effect on the lives of everyone. And as joining the euro didn't and wasn't going to happen under Labour, anti-Europe talk will be met with indifference (and is of course always a dodgy thing to discuss in the Tory party anyway).

 

What I mean is, they're stuck preaching to the converted and there doesn't seem to be many issues around which they can capitalise on and attract new Tories.

[View From The Top]

No, I did meant Marxists. Not really a very good example to quote Mugabe, was it, solentstars?

 

And so by your definition, Gordon Brown is authoritarian, as he is attempting to cling to power, even accepting the possibility of changing the voting system to achieve it. But then he has changed his mind on the FPTP system all of a sudden, even though Labour had 13 years to do something about it. So as GB's position undermines your example in connection of the FPTP system, it wasn't a particularly good example, was it?

 

Brown wants to keep FPTP but use the STV system so that all MPs have a majority of the votes from their own seat.

 

It's also clear that he's not attempting to cling to power in any way, shape or form. I don't like the man but he's just letting things run their course as he should.

[Fuengirola Saint]

Yes but there is an extra layer beneath as we have seen with Nordrhein-Westfalen yesterday. What I am saying is that direct comparisons with the German political system can be misleading.

 

A similar system exists here in Spain with the Communidades Autonomos, eg, Andalucia, Catalunya etc

[Fuengirola Saint]

That's strange, my nightmare started in 1997

 

You must sleep in a strange bed

[Joensuu]

You must sleep in a strange bed

 

Is Whitey married to Debbie McGee?

[Fuengirola Saint]

No, I did meant Marxists. Not really a very good example to quote Mugabe, was it, solentstars?

 

And so by your definition, Gordon Brown is authoritarian, as he is attempting to cling to power, even accepting the possibility of changing the voting system to achieve it. But then he has changed his mind on the FPTP system all of a sudden, even though Labour had 13 years to do something about it. So as GB's position undermines your example in connection of the FPTP system, it wasn't a particularly good example, was it?

 

I agree with you on this matter :-o the death bed conversion by Brown has not been very impressive

[buctootim]

I agree with you on this matter :-o the death bed conversion by Brown has not been very impressive

 

Particularly since Blair promised a referendum on PR and Brown reportedly was part of the rebellion against it, forcing Blair to backtrack.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/blair-plans-to-ditch-promise-on-electoral-reform-690255.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/183879.stm

Edited 10 May, 2010 by buctootim
more info

[Sour Mash]

All of which is true.

 

Stanley has attended NF marches. He does believe that the white races are superior to the black and brown races due to a warped view of Darwin. He has supported the BNP. He has said that he questions the holocaust ever took place. He has said that Nazi Germany was "misunderstood".

 

Dune may like to forget what Stanley said but some if us have long memories.

 

Don't you get bored of posting it on EVERY SINGLE F*****G THREAD though?

[solentstars]

The issues around treaties and sovereignty and all that crap have little visible effect on peoples' lives and are only a matter of interest to hardcore Tory and UKIP types, whose votes those parties can rely upon anyway.

 

To your average floating voter (i.e. vaguely anti-EU but not really too bothered, Europe seems to consistently come last in most lists of voters' concerns) the only thing that might bother them would be an actual move towards joining the euro, as a big and visible step that would have a substantial effect on the lives of everyone. And as joining the euro didn't and wasn't going to happen under Labour, anti-Europe talk will be met with indifference (and is of course always a dodgy thing to discuss in the Tory party anyway).

 

What I mean is, they're stuck preaching to the converted and there doesn't seem to be many issues around which they can capitalise on and attract new Tories.

 

i think the hardcore torys and labour supporters stand out with their closed minds.

thank god cameron is turning out to be a moderate and aiming the centre ground but worry about some of the nutters still leftover from their schoolboy thatcherite ideology still.

thank god we got our hung parliment:)

[Wes Tender]

The issues around treaties and sovereignty and all that crap have little visible effect on peoples' lives and are only a matter of interest to hardcore Tory and UKIP types, whose votes those parties can rely upon anyway.

 

To your average floating voter (i.e. vaguely anti-EU but not really too bothered, Europe seems to consistently come last in most lists of voters' concerns) the only thing that might bother them would be an actual move towards joining the euro, as a big and visible step that would have a substantial effect on the lives of everyone. And as joining the euro didn't and wasn't going to happen under Labour, anti-Europe talk will be met with indifference (and is of course always a dodgy thing to discuss in the Tory party anyway).

 

What I mean is, they're stuck preaching to the converted and there doesn't seem to be many issues around which they can capitalise on and attract new Tories.

 

So you don't believe that if the people of this country were told that the cost to each and every one of them of being in the EU was £2000 per annum it wouldn't have any affect on their lives if they were given it back, or didn't have to pay it?

 

The problem is that the impression that your average voter does not care too much about it, comes about for the following reasons:-

 

1) Granted it is not the main issue in a General Election, where the voting public have other priorities. But it is far more relevant in the European Elections, where they have far more clout making a protest vote. But in the run up to the European Elections, the main parties attempt to keep support away from parties like UKIP by making promises they then break.

 

2) Referenda have been promised on more than one occasion by the parties, but they somehow never come to fruition. The public are just apathetic at them for crying wolf so often and don't believe them any longer.

 

3) They are told the same sort of lies that are spouted on here as scare tactics, that we would risk losing all of our trade with Europe and somehow not be able to establish trading relationships with others. But of course, the European nations would not wish to discontinue trading with us and we could therefore demand reciprocal trade to the same extent.

 

And I don't think for one minute that he general public just shrug their shoulders at the situation that the European Court of Law takes precedence over the laws passed by our own elected Parliament.

[View From The Top]

Don't you get bored of posting it on EVERY SINGLE F*****G THREAD though?

 

Nope.

[bridge too far]

So you don't believe that if the people of this country were told that the cost to each and every one of them of being in the EU was £2000 per annum it wouldn't have any affect on their lives if they were given it back, or didn't have to pay it?

 

The problem is that the impression that your average voter does not care too much about it, comes about for the following reasons:-

 

1) Granted it is not the main issue in a General Election, where the voting public have other priorities. But it is far more relevant in the European Elections, where they have far more clout making a protest vote. But in the run up to the European Elections, the main parties attempt to keep support away from parties like UKIP by making promises they then break.

 

2) Referenda have been promised on more than one occasion by the parties, but they somehow never come to fruition. The public are just apathetic at them for crying wolf so often and don't believe them any longer.

 

3) They are told the same sort of lies that are spouted on here as scare tactics, that we would risk losing all of our trade with Europe and somehow not be able to establish trading relationships with others. But of course, the European nations would not wish to discontinue trading with us and we could therefore demand reciprocal trade to the same extent.

 

And I don't think for one minute that he general public just shrug their shoulders at the situation that the European Court of Law takes precedence over the laws passed by our own elected Parliament.

 

If you google "eu law precedent over uk law" you will find many articles that indicate that the precedence applies 'where there is conflict [with national law]'. Some of the articles suggest that many member states (Germany for example) challenge this assumption.

[View From The Top]

2) Referenda have been promised on more than one occasion by the parties, but they somehow never come to fruition. The public are just apathetic at them for crying wolf so often and don't believe them any longer.

 

Only one referendum needs to be called though. A simple In or Out.

 

Anyone under 53 (I think) has never been asked about if we want to be in or out and "we" voted to be in a trading community not a political union.

[badgerx16]

Yes the BNP may get one or two seats under PR, the Greens would get more, and UKIP might even manage one ! You may even see independant 'single issue' parties gaining more credibility. That's what democracy is about.

 

Like them or loath them, the BNP, UKIP, ( and the Tories ), are legitimate political parties, and have every right to exist and stand for election. At least that way their mandate can be tested.

 

To misquote Voltaire "I disapprove completely of your bigotted, right-wing, hate-filled, racist agenda, but will defend to the death your right to put it to the public vote and be humiliated".

[pedg]

For those that think PR would line the commons with extremists have look at the following page:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/may/10/proportional-representation-general-election-2010

 

Shows that under AV in England there would be only 1 extra non con/lab/lib MP and under STV there would actually be one less (brighton's green).

 

Under AV the SNP would get 1 less and under STV 7 more.

[Minty]

I think it's fair to say however, that under PR, more people would be incluined to vote for 'minority' parties, rather than one of the main three. I know I would for example.

[buctootim]

For those that think PR would line the commons with extremists have look at the following page:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/may/10/proportional-representation-general-election-2010

 

Shows that under AV in England there would be only 1 extra non con/lab/lib MP and under STV there would actually be one less (brighton's green).

 

Under AV the SNP would get 1 less and under STV 7 more.

 

 

AV would only be a marginal improvement imo because it still disproprotionately benefits the large parties. STV would be much more representative without promoting extremism - because the fringe parties would pick up comparatively few second and third preference votes.

[badgerx16]

I think it's fair to say however, that under PR, more people would be incluined to vote for 'minority' parties, rather than one of the main three. I know I would for example.

+ 1

 

I voted tactically, because the candidate I would have supported under PR had no chance against the LAB / CON 'norm'.

[Mao Cap]

i think the hardcore torys and labour supporters stand out with their closed minds.

thank god cameron is turning out to be a moderate and aiming the centre ground but worry about some of the nutters still leftover from their schoolboy thatcherite ideology still.

thank god we got our hung parliment:)

 

You knows it man

 

So you don't believe that if the people of this country were told that the cost to each and every one of them of being in the EU was £2000 per annum it wouldn't have any affect on their lives if they were given it back, or didn't have to pay it?

 

The problem is that the impression that your average voter does not care too much about it, comes about for the following reasons:-

 

1) Granted it is not the main issue in a General Election, where the voting public have other priorities. But it is far more relevant in the European Elections, where they have far more clout making a protest vote. But in the run up to the European Elections, the main parties attempt to keep support away from parties like UKIP by making promises they then break.

 

2) Referenda have been promised on more than one occasion by the parties, but they somehow never come to fruition. The public are just apathetic at them for crying wolf so often and don't believe them any longer.

 

3) They are told the same sort of lies that are spouted on here as scare tactics, that we would risk losing all of our trade with Europe and somehow not be able to establish trading relationships with others. But of course, the European nations would not wish to discontinue trading with us and we could therefore demand reciprocal trade to the same extent.

 

And I don't think for one minute that he general public just shrug their shoulders at the situation that the European Court of Law takes precedence over the laws passed by our own elected Parliament.

 

Well they did when the Conservative Party were banging that drum to little response throughout their shift to the right in the early 2000s, and there is little reason why that should change now.

 

Whatever statistics get pulled out of the air about what a utopian world we'd live in if we weren't in the EU (probably from Policy Exchange or Taxpayers' Alliance or one of them, and therefore so skewed as to be completely meaningless - wouldn't treat studies from think-thanks with an obvious agenda saying how great the EU was with any more respect, mind) most people go for weeks at a time without the EU ever crossing their mind. I know I do, anyway. Housing, schools, care for the elderly, yep. Lisbon Treaty, meh. People can be riled up for a second by stories about straight bananas and heroic grocers refusing to measure stuff in grams and kilograms and all that piddling Little Englander type of sh*te, but five seconds later they'll put down their Mail and forget all about it.

 

Not saying the Tory party couldn't bring in a few UKIP voters in from the cold with some more radical anti-Europe rhetoric and manoeuvres (those were presumably the people they were going for by joining in with all those nutty far-right parties in the European Parliament) but for every one of them they'd lose as much or more Ken Clarke-type people on the left of the party without making much of a difference to floating voters. Not worth doing if they want to appeal to a wider section of the electorate.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

 

 

 

Not saying the Tory party couldn't bring in a few UKIP voters in from the cold with some more radical anti-Europe rhetoric and manoeuvres (those were presumably the people they were going for by joining in with all those nutty far-right parties in the European Parliament) but for every one of them they'd lose as much or more Ken Clarke-type people on the left of the party without making much of a difference to floating voters. Not worth doing if they want to appeal to a wider section of the electorate.

 

How do you explain The Torys and UKIP being first and second in the European elcetions then?

 

The one election when Europe is top of the agenda, the EUROPEAN ELECTIONS, Labour and Lib/Dems came 3rd and 4th. The Torys came first, followed by a fringe party who want to withdraw. The fact the pro European loons were completely routed, goes against your theory somewhat.

[View From The Top]

How do you explain The Torys and UKIP being first and second in the European elcetions then?

 

The one election when Europe is top of the agenda, the EUROPEAN ELECTIONS, Labour and Lib/Dems came 3rd and 4th. The Torys came first, followed by a fringe party who want to withdraw. The fact the pro European loons were completely routed, goes against your theory somewhat.

 

They were motivated by a single issue to vote. After all withdrawal from the EU is the sole reason for the existence of UKIP so if they can't get their vote out for that what hope do they have.

 

No party, apart from the fringe such as UKIP, BNP, English Nationalist support withdrawal from the EU and I'd wager that apart from those motivated solely by the withdrawal argument, the populace vote on national issues.

[solentstars]

They were motivated by a single issue to vote. After all withdrawal from the EU is the sole reason for the existence of UKIP so if they can't get their vote out for that what hope do they have.

 

No party, apart from the fringe such as UKIP, BNP, English Nationalist support withdrawal from the EU and I'd wager that apart from those motivated solely by the withdrawal argument, the populace vote on national issues.

 

i agree we will never leave the eu because none of the major partys want it. i,ve got respect for ukip and anyone who wants to leave the eu needs to vote for them unlike the torys who play the anti eu card.

don,t waste your votes on the tories if you want to leave the eu you ,ve got to vote ukip:D

[Lord Duckhunter]

They were motivated by a single issue to vote. After all withdrawal from the EU is the sole reason for the existence of UKIP so if they can't get their vote out for that what hope do they have.

 

No party, apart from the fringe such as UKIP, BNP, English Nationalist support withdrawal from the EU and I'd wager that apart from those motivated solely by the withdrawal argument, the populace vote on national issues.

 

So UKIP "got their vote out" for those elections. How do you explain the Torys topping the poll? The original post was rallying against the Torys extreme views on Europe and yet in the election that puts Europe firmly on the agenda, they top the poll (followed by the withdrawal Party). Perhaps, (and the sandal wearers wont like this), the Tory and UKIP views are in fact Britain's mainstream view on Europe and it's the lefties that are extreme and out of touch.

[dune]

Perhaps, (and the sandal wearers wont like this), the Tory and UKIP views are in fact Britain's mainstream view on Europe and it's the lefties that are extreme and out of touch.

 

Lefties out of touch???? No, never.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

 

 

Like Andynorthern who calls Delldays thick, for a perfectly reasonable comment, they both lose the argument because they have to resort to name-calling rather than debating the points raised.

 

 

 

He has a very simplistic view on politics and limited knowledge of history regarding Tory policy. But like he said, he does not care what happened in the 80's becuase it didn't affect him. Typical Tory.

 

As for name calling, look at some of your own posts.

[View From The Top]

Duckhunter[/left];720517]So UKIP "got their vote out" for those elections. How do you explain the

Torystopping the poll? The original post was rallying against theTorysextreme views on Europe and yet in the election that puts Europe firmly on the agenda, they top the poll (followed by the withdrawal Party). Perhaps, (and the sandal wearers wont like this), the Tory and UKIP views are in fact Britain's mainstream view on Europe and it's the lefties that are extreme and out of touch.

 

So the tories are advocating our withdrawal from the EU or are going to offer a referendum on it? No. Thought not.

 

In LaLa land you may want to pretend that the tories did well in the Euro elections because of they obvious anti-Euro stance, as illustrated by their immediate moves to withdraw us from it, but any reasonably bright person knows that these sought of elections are fought, for the three main parties, on national issues and are used as protests against sitting governments of any colour.

 

Please, try to keep up.

[Wes Tender]

 

He has a very simplistic view on politics and limited knowledge of history regarding Tory policy. But like he said, he does not care what happened in the 80's becuase it didn't affect him. Typical Tory.

 

As for name calling, look at some of your own posts.

 

Whereas of course, you're an expert on political history and Tory policy? Many on here are very selective about their views on the political landscape of the 80's and I suspect that some have formed opinions about it based on dogma because they were too young to have lived through it.

 

There are a few of us though who have lived through the period of Labour domination in the years leading up to the 80's and also the period of Labour governments afterwards. Why, some of us remember what a disaster the Lib/Lab pact was the first time around. Do you?

[Whitey Grandad]

Is Whitey married to Debbie McGee?

No, but I can work a bit of magic when I have to.

[Wes Tender]

[/left]

 

So the tories are advocating our withdrawal from the EU or are going to offer a referendum on it? No. Thought not.

 

In LaLa land you may want to pretend that the tories did well in the Euro elections because of they obvious anti-Euro stance, as illustrated by their immediate moves to withdraw us from it, but any reasonably bright person knows that these sought (sic) of elections are fought, for the three main parties, on national issues and are used as protests against sitting governments of any colour.

 

Please, try to keep up.

 

So what you're saying, is that the European elections are a complete waste of time, as the electorate vote only on National issues, ignoring the purpose of having separate elections to elect their representatives in Europe ? That's an awful indictment of the democratic system, isn't it? And you infer that it is the reasonably bright people who ignore the European issues and vote only on National issues?

 

And furthermore, these reasonably bright people are more interested in wasting their votes to give the sitting Government a good kicking, instead of using them to vote for the party which most represents their views?

 

Why don't we just lance this boil once and for all and have a referendum on Europe, in or out? As you have proven, the democratic process on it is farcical.

[Whitey Grandad]

So what you're saying, is that the European elections are a complete waste of time, as the electorate vote only on National issues, ignoring the purpose of having separate elections to elect their representatives in Europe ? That's an awful indictment of the democratic system, isn't it? And you infer that it is the reasonably bright people who ignore the European issues and vote only on National issues?

 

And furthermore, these reasonably bright people are more interested in wasting their votes to give the sitting Government a good kicking, instead of using them to vote for the party which most represents their views?

 

Why don't we just lance this boil once and for all and have a referendum on Europe, in or out? As you have proven, the democratic process on it is farcical.

It's not quite that simple.

[OldNick]

Not really a Mirror reader, more El Pais,I think i have the right to comment on the Tories having lived through the nightmare years 79-97

they were bloody great years for me.

 

Seeing Scargill and other militant trades union leaders trying to use their members to bring down governments for their own political ends was great.

Seeing miners being foolishly used for this was not so paletable.

After living through Red Robbo bringing down Leyland and all of British industry being paraylised by union power, it was a breath of fresh air.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

they were bloody great years for me.

 

Seeing Scargill and other militant trades union leaders trying to use their members to bring down governments for their own political ends was great.

Seeing miners being foolishly used for this was not so paletable.

After living through Red Robbo bringing down Leyland and all of British industry being paraylised by union power, it was a breath of fresh air.

 

Do you enjoy seeing people suffer and whole communities devastated?

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Whereas of course, you're an expert on political history and Tory policy? Many on here are very selective about their views on the political landscape of the 80's and I suspect that some have formed opinions about it based on dogma because they were too young to have lived through it.

 

There are a few of us though who have lived through the period of Labour domination in the years leading up to the 80's and also the period of Labour governments afterwards. Why, some of us remember what a disaster the Lib/Lab pact was the first time around. Do you?

 

I'm old enough to have lived through Tory rule 79-97 and see what effect it had on people in this country. There is little point in discusing this with someone who has completly different set of values and ethics.

[OldNick]

Do you enjoy seeing people suffer and whole communities devastated?

Andy, it depends on who was responsible for it.

As i put I didnt enjoy watching miners being used as a political tool. Their leaders wanted to use their membership to try and pervert/oust the elected government of the day.

Iam a person who wants social justice but allowing people to gain wealth by hardwork. They then contribute by paying fair taxes (not like Sir Phillip Green , who doesnt pay tax) to help care for the weak.

To me the Tories have a lot of middle to left policies eg their NHS schools spending ringfenced. They are business minded and so are better placed in formulating a plan to get us out of an economic mess.

When we are righted then Im all for no tax up to 10k a year. That is a fantastic idea and feel Cameron is likely to embrace that

[Wes Tender]

I'm old enough to have lived through Tory rule 79-97 and see what effect it had on people in this country. There is little point in discusing this with someone who has completly different set of values and ethics.

Ah! So you aren't old enough to have experienced the period of Labour misrule before that then. My set of values and ethics were moulded then and some didn't like the medicine we had to take in the eighties to get our bankrupt, overmanned and inefficient economy back on its feet. As they say, what goes around, comes around and undoubtedly you will bleat when the nasty medicine is administered this time around following Labour's latest spell in power.

[Whitey Grandad]

Ah! So you aren't old enough to have experienced the period of Labour misrule before that then. My set of values and ethics were moulded then and some didn't like the medicine we had to take in the eighties to get our bankrupt, overmanned and inefficient economy back on its feet. As they say, what goes around, comes around and undoubtedly you will bleat when the nasty medicine is administered this time around following Labour's latest spell in power.

 

Me too. Two Labour parliaments is about all that the country can survive.

[buctootim]

Me too. Two Labour parliaments is about all that the country can survive.

 

TBF two Parliaments of any Government is all the country can stand. They all seem to lose the plot after 10 years.

[Whitey Grandad]

TBF two Parliaments of any Government is all the country can stand. They all seem to lose the plot after 10 years.

 

Very true. There is a lot of discussion about the voting system not being representative but on average every 30 or 40 years the minority party gets to have a say.