Big Society, the clues in the Initals. BS.

[View From The Top]

There manifesto clearly states they want to join the euro.

 

It does indeed. It also says that it will have to be put to a referendum as UK law would need to be changed.

 

I don't think you're uncovered a hidden story I'm afraid.

Edited 3 May, 2010 by View From The Top

[Wes Tender]

Anyway, this is one of the reasons if I could vote(because I'm not old enough ) I would vote Liberal Democrat as they offer a true route to a fairer system.

 

But didn't you get the entire point of the sketch? It was Labour propaganda.

 

It obviously failed in your case.

 

So the Lib/Dems "offer a true route to a fairer system".

 

Full marks for swallowing their sound bite. It sounds great, but means nothing, like all good sound bites. You've obviously thought this through and concluded that of the other two parties, one offers the untrue route to a fair system and the other offers the true route to an unfair system.

 

Ah, the unblemished idealism of sweet innocent youth.

[Saintandy666]

But didn't you get the entire point of the sketch? It was Labour propaganda.

 

It obviously failed in your case.

 

So the Lib/Dems "offer a true route to a fairer system".

 

Full marks for swallowing their sound bite. It sounds great, but means nothing, like all good sound bites. You've obviously thought this through and concluded that of the other two parties, one offers the untrue route to a fair system and the other offers the true route to an unfair system.

 

Ah, the unblemished idealism of sweet innocent youth.

 

I thought the Big Society was Bull**** from the second it was announced. I used that video to back up my point, I realise it is 'propaganda', but so is the information that was put out there to convince you of what your opinions now are.

 

And yes, the Lib Dems will do it best, it's basically redistribution of taxes(or tax the rich more), it's makes sense.

[Wes Tender]

I'm glad Gordon Brown just got recognition of how good his speech was on BBC news.

 

Oh, and the Guardian...

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/may/03/gordon-brown-citizensuk-leadership-debate

 

For those who mocked my judgement!

 

Ah, the Guardian, that bastion of totally unbiased middle of the road opinion. What a recommendation for the impartiality of the judgement.

[Saintandy666]

Ah, the Guardian, that bastion of totally unbiased middle of the road opinion. What a recommendation for the impartiality of the judgement.

 

Nick Robinson said it also. I said it also, for ****s sake, why does no one believe me?!

[Wes Tender]

I thought the Big Society was Bull**** from the second it was announced. I used that video to back up my point, I realise it is 'propaganda', but so is the information that was put out there to convince you of what your opinions now are.

And yes, the Lib Dems will do it best, it's basically redistribution of taxes(or tax the rich more), it's makes sense.

 

Not so. My opinions have been formed over decades of experience of British politics, going back to the time at the end of the Macmillan era and the start of the Harold Wilson government.

 

Yours?

 

As for your assertion that the Lib/Dems will do wealth distribution best, I beg to differ, They have no track record at it, as the last time they were the Government was under Lloyd George 90 odd years ago. Labour do it best, with their "Squeeze 'em til the pips squeak mantra.

 

I really can't be bothered to go over all the old ground as to why taxing the rich isn't the panacea you might think it is, but suffice it to say that if you are bright enough, or industrious enough to make a success of your life, you might take a different view of it all if you should find that somehow, what you considered to be a reasonable level of income, might be deemed to categorise you as rich in the eyes of a future Labour or Lib/Dem Government.

 

But then again, you might revel in paying a disproportionate percentage of your income to the Exchequer and it might give you a nice warm feeling.

 

I don't.

[Saintandy666]

Not so. My opinions have been formed over decades of experience of British politics, going back to the time at the end of the Macmillan era and the start of the Harold Wilson government.

 

Yours?

 

As for your assertion that the Lib/Dems will do wealth distribution best, I beg to differ, They have no track record at it, as the last time they were the Government was under Lloyd George 90 odd years ago. Labour do it best, with their "Squeeze 'em til the pips squeak mantra.

 

I really can't be bothered to go over all the old ground as to why taxing the rich isn't the panacea you might think it is, but suffice it to say that if you are bright enough, or industrious enough to make a success of your life, you might take a different view of it all if you should find that somehow, what you considered to be a reasonable level of income, might be deemed to categorise you as rich in the eyes of a future Labour or Lib/Dem Government.

 

But then again, you might revel in paying a disproportionate percentage of your income to the Exchequer and it might give you a nice warm feeling.

 

I don't.

 

Oh yawn... I hate the arrogance of older people who just say they are right because they are older. It's patronising and just because you are 17 it does not mean you don't have legitimate political views, so please with all politeness stop with the patronising. And I can assure you, your opinions will be based on absorbence of even more 'propaganda' over the decades mixed in with personal experience. No-one remains uninfluenced by others opinions.

 

You grossly overstate the effects of what a Lib Dem and/or Labour Government would have on the pockets of the rich(though to be honest, those who can pay should have to pay). And they should pay a disproportionate amount, poll tax proves this. And I don't give a **** if one day it is me paying a bit more either.

[Wes Tender]

Oh yawn... I hate the arrogance of older people who just say they are right because they are older. It's patronising and just because you are 17 it does not mean you don't have legitimate political views, so please with all politeness stop with the patronising. And I can assure you, your opinions will be based on absorbence of even more 'propaganda' over the decades mixed in with personal experience. No-one remains uninfluenced by others opinions.

 

You grossly overstate the effects of what a Lib Dem and/or Labour Government would have on the pockets of the rich(though to be honest, those who can pay should have to pay). And they should pay a disproportionate amount, poll tax proves this. And I don't give a **** if one day it is me paying a bit more either.

 

Ah! The arrogance of youth, who think they know it all, when the ink has hardly dried on their birth certificates. I couldn't care a toss if you think that you're being patronised. You deserve it.

 

How much personal experience backs up your legitimate views?

 

None.

 

You sound like the Lib/Dem version of Tory Boy.

 

Goodnight.

[Saintandy666]

Ah! The arrogance of youth, who think they know it all, when the ink has hardly dried on their birth certificates. I couldn't care a toss if you think that you're being patronised. You deserve it.

 

How much personal experience backs up your legitimate views?

 

None.

 

You sound like the Lib/Dem version of Tory Boy.

 

Goodnight.

 

Shut up. I respect your view, I understand views in different people are different, something you are incapable of. You sound like the arrogant **** who always insists he is right no matter what. Well, wakey wakey... not everyone thinks the same as you.

 

'Goodnight'

[badgerx16]

'The Big Society' - a Busy-Bodies Charter where Neighbourhood Watch organisers, school Parent Governors, and Scout Leaders, take over the world.

[Fuengirola Saint]

Shut up. I respect your view, I understand views in different people are different, something you are incapable of. You sound like the arrogant **** who always insists he is right no matter what. Well, wakey wakey... not everyone thinks the same as you.

 

'Goodnight'

 

That´s his problem, he´s obviously an intelligent bloke but exudes this arrogance which gets your hackles up, if you disagree with him you are either thick or ignorant.( I hope you read this Wes )

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

'The Big Society' - a Busy-Bodies Charter where Neighbourhood Watch organisers, school Parent Governors, and Scout Leaders, take over the world.

 

 

Better than the overpaid, politically correct, interfering stasis that run our lifes now. These people do it for out of duty.

[dune]

That´s his problem, he´s obviously an intelligent bloke but exudes this arrogance which gets your hackles up, if you disagree with him you are either thick or ignorant.( I hope you read this Wes )

 

VFTT regularly calls me thick and ignorant and a nazi. It's most upsetting. Will you be my friend Fungi?

[Fuengirola Saint]

VFTT regularly calls me thick and ignorant and a nazi. It's most upsetting. Will you be my friend Fungi?

 

Only if you vote Labour ;-) ( well you are a Nazi though )

[dune]

Only if you vote Labour ;-) ( well you are a Nazi though )

 

Don't be like that, if Dave Cam can hug a hoodie what's wrong with being nice to Nazi's? As to voting Labour it could be a problem. My hair has already started turning ginger since went all leftie and joined UKIP.

[GenevaSaint]

There manifesto clearly states they want to join the euro, when DC said this NC denies and said no plans to join the euro because he knows the public don’t want it.

 

This is not the b**dy X factor, although I do want the future PM to have charisma which I feel both Clegg and Cameron have, but any neutral will have to agree that Brown does not inspire!

 

In response to part I, they do indeed want to join the Euro, IF economic conditions are right and the public vote that way in a referendum. The arrogance of ordinary Dave was astounding, we will never join the Euro under any circumstances, what a ****.

 

I agree with part II, we're focusing too much on the personalities. Brown has little or now public charisma, but that shouldn't matter it should all be about policies. Unfortunately this is not the case.

[Wade Garrett]

I think it's ironic when Thatcherite Cameron talks about 'Big Society' when Maggie herself said in a famous interview 'there is no such thing as society'.

 

Leopards don't change their spots. To think the Tories have gone caring and sharing is rubbish.

[dune]

I think it's ironic when Thatcherite Cameron talks about 'Big Society' when Maggie herself said in a famous interview 'there is no such thing as society'.

 

Leopards don't change their spots. To think the Tories have gone caring and sharing is rubbish.

 

If you believe in social mobility then it's support for businesses that will deliver it. The Conservatives have pledged to abolish empoyers NI contributions on the first worker new businesses employ. It needs to be understood that the only way we're going to get out of the mess we're in is through the growth of the private sector and the Conservatives are the party with the policies to achieve this.

 

The Conservatives are accused of being the party of the rich, but if you look outside the box it's clear that the Conservative party is the party that will get Britain working again.

[Wade Garrett]

If you believe in social mobility then it's support for businesses that will deliver it. The Conservatives have pledged to abolish empoyers NI contributions on the first worker new businesses employ. It needs to be understood that the only way we're going to get out of the mess we're in is through the growth of the private sector and the Conservatives are the party with the policies to achieve this.

 

The Conservatives are accused of being the party of the rich, but if you look outside the box it's clear that the Conservative party is the party that will get Britain working again.

 

As long as this isn't achieved by exploiting the workforce I have no real problem with that.

[dune]

As long as this isn't achieved by exploiting the workforce I have no real problem with that.

 

Look at the facts.

 

The Tories have been out in the cold for 13 years - they're not going to blow the chance if they get it.

 

I do hope they take a tough stance with brussels in relation to red tape (and I think they will given the fact DC is a eurosceptic although it's not been reported much) but the minimum wage is here to stay.

 

As DC has said "If we don't deliver sack us at the next election".

[Wade Garrett]

Look at the facts.

 

The Tories have been out in the cold for 13 years - they're not going to blow the chance if they get it.

 

I do hope they take a tough stance with brussels in relation to red tape (and I think they will given the fact DC is a eurosceptic although it's not been reported much) but the minimum wage is here to stay.

 

As DC has said "If we don't deliver sack us at the next election".

 

That's fine. I'll wait and see. But to be honest I quite like the right not to work sweatshop hours. I am not saying that I will under the Tories, as I say, I'll wait and see.

[OldNick]

As long as this isn't achieved by exploiting the workforce I have no real problem with that.

Wade could you quantify what you mean by that?

What is exploitation of the workforce?

[dune]

That's fine. I'll wait and see. But to be honest I quite like the right not to work sweatshop hours. I am not saying that I will under the Tories, as I say, I'll wait and see.

 

I've opted out of the EU working week directive. I don't do a lot of OT but I do think I should be able to work it if I want to earn a bit more.

[Scummer]

I find it funny that the socialists have such a low opinion of the public at large. Isn't that a bit contradictory?

[Joensuu]

Could someone explain to me what 'Big Society' actually means? Surely a soundbite should be named in a self-explanatory way?

 

Bet that only a minority have heard of the 'Big Society', and only a minority of those have any idea what its about. Certainly not a vote winner.

[sperm_john]

What really bugs me is when you hear these politicians from the left (both lib and lab) saying 'we need to tax the rich' ...'those that can pay should have to pay' ...errrr am I missing something??? So because I've worked hard all my life and somebody else in Rotherham or somewhere has sat on their arse claiming job seekers I'm left sat in Hampshire footing the bill? This is exactly what's wrong with a Labour government and exactly what's wrong with the country at the moment. Whoever thinks the public sector could exist without the private sector is an idiot, its funded on taxes, taxes that wouldn't be paid without the private sector, so to give the public sector more important makes no sense? ITS RELIANT. So anyway Andy, I know your giving it your all to convince us that Labour or the Liberals are worth sticking with/voting for, but why should I have to foot the bill? Why should I have to pay 'just because I can' ...surely that's not the 'fairness' that the Liberals are advocating?! No ...they mean fair as in anyone with money pays more so no one go's without, that's essentially communist ideals, and we are all left with no money ...way to inspire people to do something with their lives, no just sit round in a house with 18 kids and someone else will pay 'because they can' ...As a side mark, at least David Cameron is saying 'we are all in it together' and 'lets roll up our sleeves on friday' not ...you can do f*** all and get away with it

[dune]

Could someone explain to me what 'Big Society' actually means? Surely a soundbite should be named in a self-explanatory way?

 

Bet that only a minority have heard of the 'Big Society', and only a minority of those have any idea what its about. Certainly not a vote winner.

 

It's a very easy concept to grasp. The Big Society is a fundamental policy encompassing the principle of making the Society Bigger. In essence it encapsulates the principles of Britain in Bloom and within a year of the Conservatives gaining power I fully expect to see our towns and cities awash with hanging baskets and ornamental shrub beds. The very fabric of our society will be transformed as it will take the hoodlums away from the precincts and instead of smoking weed and drinking white lightening they'll be planting Geraniums and white washing Banksy's. The pessimism on this forum is endemic of the small society in which we live so think big and vote Conservative.

[Wes Tender]

In response to part I, they do indeed want to join the Euro, IF economic conditions are right and the public vote that way in a referendum. The arrogance of ordinary Dave was astounding, we will never join the Euro under any circumstances, what a ****.

 

I agree with part II, we're focusing too much on the personalities. Brown has little or now public charisma, but that shouldn't matter it should all be about policies. Unfortunately this is not the case.

 

Firstly, why is a firm stance on not joining the Euro labelled by you to be arrogant? It is a principled stand, a declared policy. The usual woolly rhetoric and weasel words surface again and again in the debate on Europe. When the conditions are right, in the fullness of time, when the voting public form a consensus on it. Does it begin to sound like Sir Humphrey from "Yes Minister"?

 

So the Lib/Dems will grant us a referendum on it will they? But then I don't seem to recall them being in favour of a referendum on the various Treaties that changed our membership of just a trading block into becoming a Federal State with a centralised Parliament whose laws over rode our elected Parliament. And when will the conditions ever be right and in whose opinion? The Libs are being hypocritical here.

 

I was interested and amazed to see the results of a survey this morning that showed the order of importance that the public attaches to the various issues in this election campaign. It seems that the number one issue isn't the economy, surprisingly, but Immigration leads as most important by several percent.

 

I might be wrong, but somehow I suspect that this public opinion on the subject is not coming down on the side of giving illegal immigrants an amnesty if they have been here a decade, or the looney idea that those additional new immigrants can somehow be evenly dispersed throughout the land.

 

Europe comes way down the priorities in this survey.

 

As for your agreement with the other poster on the matter of personalities, I agree entirely with you both. Take this thread, for instance. It is all about how the individual party leaders came across in front of an audience from a particular sector of society, a collective of charity and citizenship pressure groups. To a certain extent, this was not entirely a typical grouping as a cross section of the electorate and neither were the leaders in a position to cross examine each other as in the television debates. But in this election campaign more than in any other in British political history, it is all about presentation over substance, which is wrong. So Brown came across well. So what? It was all platitudes and sound bites. Where was the Beef?

 

Blair made presentation an art form with his spin doctor Campbell, but this election has taken us a step further down that road. We are much the worse for it.

[OldNick]

It's a very easy concept to grasp. The Big Society is a fundamental policy encompassing the principle of making the Society Bigger. In essence it encapsulates the principles of Britain in Bloom and within a year of the Conservatives gaining power I fully expect to see our towns and cities awash with hanging baskets and ornamental shrub beds. The very fabric of our society will be transformed as it will take the hoodlums away from the precincts and instead of smoking weed and drinking white lightening they'll be planting Geraniums and white washing Banksy's. The pessimism on this forum is endemic of the small society in which we live so think big and vote Conservative.

Lol. Personally the big society is a great concept, whether people are interested is another thing. I suspect most parents will like the thought of the rules being slackened so discipline at schools is looked at. IMO most decent hardworking people of all political persuasions want some kind of proper order back into the fabric of society. The days when you could point out to somebody who drops litter to pick it up etc without getting a mouthful of bile and abuse , need to return. That common decency and pride in our streets and nation returns.Not chest thumping Engeeerrllaand stuff but jsut respect for other people would be nice.

[Wade Garrett]

Wade could you quantify what you mean by that?

What is exploitation of the workforce?

 

Specifically, I mean not being forced to do more than a 48 hour week. Voluntarily is fine, but I work hard and like time with my family as well.

[Wade Garrett]

I've opted out of the EU working week directive. I don't do a lot of OT but I do think I should be able to work it if I want to earn a bit more.

 

That's fine as long as it's voluntary.

[saint1977]

Specifically, I mean not being forced to do more than a 48 hour week. Voluntarily is fine, but I work hard and like time with my family as well.

 

There's the rub. I do take part when I can in activity that would be deemed "Big Society" but get up at 6am and get home around 8pm due to the commute I do. I like Cameron's ideas in principle BUT if they are going to work he will need leverage on UK employers across all sectors to make it work and to enable people the economic freedom to do it - whether that means tax concessions I don't know.

 

We already work the longest hours in Europe for the highest house prices so something has to give. Personally, I'd reduce local government's scope far more, giving housing to Housing Associations would take local politicians out of it and encourage responsible tenants and a big saving on TUPE transfers of LA Housing Depts. Also, why not have regional HR and Payroll teams - Soton, E'leigh, HCC etc? I know Soton is a unitary authority but think about the savings. It's areas like Social Workers that we should be preserving at local levels as the risk is too high of regionalising these and ditto communities teams.

[Joensuu]

It's a very easy concept to grasp. The Big Society is a fundamental policy encompassing the principle of making the Society Bigger. In essence it encapsulates the principles of Britain in Bloom and within a year of the Conservatives gaining power I fully expect to see our towns and cities awash with hanging baskets and ornamental shrub beds. The very fabric of our society will be transformed as it will take the hoodlums away from the precincts and instead of smoking weed and drinking white lightening they'll be planting Geraniums and white washing Banksy's. The pessimism on this forum is endemic of the small society in which we live so think big and vote Conservative.

 

Sorry, but what has 'big' got to do with flowers? What is a 'big society'? I can only assume that it means a society with more members. Are the Tories asking us to have more kids? Or are they wanting to reduce border controls?

[dune]

Sorry, but what has 'big' got to do with flowers? What is a 'big society'? I can only assume that it means a society with more members. Are the Tories asking us to have more kids? Or are they wanting to reduce border controls?

 

I get it, nickh gets, everyone seems to get it apart from you. Think of a little accorn and then think of a giant oak, think of little puddle and then think of an ocean, think of spec of dust and then think of giant mountain, think single starling and then think of a flock, think adam and think of eve and think of the human race today. The big society is like the small society but bigger. Now that wasn't too difficult was it?

[hypochondriac]

And what a great speech he gave in response. And shush, under the tories, we wouldn't even have a minimum wage, let alone a living wage.

 

TBH it just sounded very Americanised to me. It didn't sound real just full of patriotic phrases without actually saying much.

[Joensuu]

I get it, nickh gets, everyone seems to get it apart from you. Think of a little accorn and then think of a giant oak, think of little puddle and then think of an ocean, think of spec of dust and then think of giant mountain, think single starling and then think of a flock, think adam and think of eve and think of the human race today. The big society is like the small society but bigger. Now that wasn't too difficult was it?

 

Dune, I understand Cameron's idea, I just don't really get why they called it 'big'. What they really mean is 'improve', or 'energise'. Dave seems to want to create a society which is modelled on the activities of the Women's Institute or something. I bet if you stopped 10 people in the street and asked them what 'big society' means you might get 1 person who knows, and nine confused faces or incorrect guesses. My point is, that irrespective of the aim of the policy, the name just simply doesn't convey the meaning.

 

BTW, I don't oppose the policy, it just sounds a bit twee and quaint. It will, no doubt, be all the rage in Tumbridge Wells and Marlbrough, but it's unlikely to get too much interest in Lordshill or Tower Hamlets.

[saint1977]

I get it, nickh gets, everyone seems to get it apart from you. Think of a little accorn and then think of a giant oak, think of little puddle and then think of an ocean, think of spec of dust and then think of giant mountain, think single starling and then think of a flock, think adam and think of eve and think of the human race today. The big society is like the small society but bigger. Now that wasn't too difficult was it?

 

I'm not against the ideas Dune but it needs employer buy-in and I don't see the evidence of that. It's all very well Cameron saying he wants BS and for us to spend more time with our families but tell that to employers! Now, what he could do is get Ashcroft to put in £10m of the taxes he allegedly cheated on paying into a start-up fund and employers can put in for matched-funding at different levels for a day a week of their staff's time in a local BS project. So for an SME, they'd get 80% of the wages refunded but the likes of IBM might get 25% as they can better afford it. Good for the CSR angle for the companies and good for employees to spend time in communities. If the employees enjoy it, we might grow it and then we need to work with the charities sector on helping them culturally change to adapt to the new patterns of volunteering.

 

I was a bit tongue-in-cheek on Ashcroft - although he actually should do this an apology to us - but philanthropy will be crucial in developing BS fully with public finances so sickly. Cameron must repudiate and publicly reject Thatcher's "no such thing as a society" comments from the 1980s added to the injection of private finance if the Conservatives are to be really taken seriously on this.

[OldNick]

Specifically, I mean not being forced to do more than a 48 hour week. Voluntarily is fine, but I work hard and like time with my family as well.

Why you think that a tory businessman is likely to be harsher than a labour or Liberal one is what is upsetting.

There are a###holes in all walks of life and without wishing to offend some people, my own thoughts are that the people who abuse the workforce are not always the people born in this country and dont follow the same rules.

We have laws to stop such things taking place and I for one would not defend any person for forcing people to work longer than they wish.

A good employer gets a happy workforce, so a better product and service, it is in their interests for that to happen.

Bad employers are not only tories, and you have laws to stop you being abused.

On the other hand, sometimes it is not only the boss who is an a###. How many employees are looking for a sickie or a Claims Direct injury? I wouldnt say only labour or Libs are in those categories either.

[Wade Garrett]

Why you think that a tory businessman is likely to be harsher than a labour or Liberal one is what is upsetting.

There are a###holes in all walks of life and without wishing to offend some people, my own thoughts are that the people who abuse the workforce are not always the people born in this country and dont follow the same rules.

We have laws to stop such things taking place and I for one would not defend any person for forcing people to work longer than they wish.

A good employer gets a happy workforce, so a better product and service, it is in their interests for that to happen.

Bad employers are not only tories, and you have laws to stop you being abused.

On the other hand, sometimes it is not only the boss who is an a###. How many employees are looking for a sickie or a Claims Direct injury? I wouldnt say only labour or Libs are in those categories either.

 

I wasn't talking about bosses, or their political persuasions. I was referring to the government legislation on working hours. I am happy as it stands, and would not want it changed.

 

You seem to make a lot of assumptions.