3rd Televised debate

[Thedelldays]

Disagree quite strongly. I felt Cameron and Brown just made diggs at each other all night like a personal vendetta. Understandably Clegg struggled to get involved in the debate.

 

I'd rather have George Bush running this country than Gordon Brown though, so whatever trevor.

they had digs at each other as they were the only two really coming out with any proposals.....dimbleby kept going from one to the other because clegg had no real substance...

 

at least gordy and cameron tried to give some proposals about cuts and taxes

[benjii]

Need? No. Should they be entitled? Yes.

 

Why?

 

Why on earth should you get state money for popping a sprog?

[benjii]

they had digs at each other as they were the only two really coming out with any proposals.....dimbleby kept going from one to the other because clegg had no real substance...

 

at least gordy and cameron tried to give some proposals about cuts and taxes

 

Why do you say Clegg had no substance? His proposals are more detailed than anyone else's.

[Ludwig]

Why?

 

Why on earth should you get state money for popping a sprog?

 

'Family' is important, as Davey would rightly tell you.

[Thedelldays]

Why?

 

Why on earth should you get state money for popping a sprog?

utterly stupid....why on earth could someone say that people on £50K+ are entitled to benefits then complain the torys only help the rich..

[Ludwig]

Surprise surprise, The Sun's poll gives it to Cameron.

[Thedelldays]

'Family' is important, as Davey would rightly tell you.

not sure what that means...if someone can quite clearly afford NOT to have help from the tax payer, then they should not....

 

I thought you were aginst the torys giving money to people who dont need it..?

[Johnny Bognor]

Link? Would genuinely be interested to see these stats.

 

 

When I get 10 minutes, I will dig out the info for you.

 

I have made this point many a time on this forum, but will have to dig out the research. As it is now QT, followed by This Week, I will try to get it for you tomorrow.

Edited 29 April, 2010 by Johnny Bognor

[dune]

Surprise surprise, The Sun's poll gives it to Cameron.

 

I think this in the only time Cameron has come out on top, but not so much on personality, but on policy. Immigration is a major problem in this country and the Tories are a better option than Labour or the Liberals to deal with it. In a few years time Turkey may join the EU and we need a Tory govt to stop them all coming here. I'd rather have a UKIP govt. though.

[SuperMikey]

Interesting that, Brown looked lost most of the way through, and only really seemed to find his feet when arguing with Cameron. As much as I hate to say it, I think Cameron won the debate tonight. While he was spouting the same old sh!t, he was telling the people what they wanted to hear and not what was factually correct and feasible. Cleggy didn't really get into it tonight, because the emphasis was very much on how Brown would bounce back and whether Cameron would seize his opportunity or not.

 

Couple of things:

 

- Cameron's proposed 'cap' on immigration is ridiculous, as it's prevented by EU laws to restrict the movement of EU nationals. As was stated, 80% of the people arriving in this country last year were EU nationals, and that figure cannot be capped. So basically, in order for this 'cap' to have any noticeable effect on immigration, you'd basically have to not allow any immigrants in from outside the EU. Didn't think that one through very clearly.

 

- Brown and Cameron thinking they'd sounded Clegg out on his 600k amnesty is ridiculous as well, because we're talking about people who are contributing to the economy here. We're pretty much operating on a 1 in/1 out policy here at the moment, as with the last 1m migrants and immigrants that came in, 1m Brits left the country. All that we're talking about is the diluting of the British society here, we're hardly being overwhelmed really.

 

- Brown should never, ever smile. It's just weird.

[Ludwig]

utterly stupid....why on earth could someone say that people on £50K+ are entitled to benefits then complain the torys only help the rich..

 

You can see Cameron's allegiances lie with the upper classes, as opposed to the 'middle-classes'. Households earning between 50-100k per year are comfortable, but nowhere near the income of those who his inheritance tax cuts will benefit. It's not just upper class vs lower class, the many in the middle are clearly forgotten.

[trousers]

Cameron 41%

Clegg 34%

Brown 25%

[Millbrook Saint]

Need? No. Should they be entitled? Yes.

 

Rubbish!!

 

And there was me thinking family tax credits were there to help struggling families.

 

Just because someone earning £20k a year is entitled to it to help put food on the table, doesn't mean someone earning £50k a year is entitled to it to help run the car or finance the nice foreign holiday.

 

Times are hard at the moment we all need to tighten our belts, benefits should be there to help people with hardships not to boost an already decent wage.

[Thedelldays]

 

 

 

- Brown and Cameron thinking they'd sounded Clegg out on his 600k amnesty is ridiculous as well, because we're talking about people who are contributing to the economy here. We're pretty much operating on a 1 in/1 out policy here at the moment, as with the last 1m migrants and immigrants that came in, 1m Brits left the country. All that we're talking about is the diluting of the British society here, we're hardly being overwhelmed really.

 

- Brown should never, ever smile. It's just weird.

they were talking about illegals

[Ludwig]

not sure what that means...if someone can quite clearly afford NOT to have help from the tax payer, then they should not....

 

I thought you were aginst the torys giving money to people who dont need it..?

 

Those who would claim child benefit would likely spend it, inheritance tax cuts windfalls would likely not be spent at all. A difference between giving money to people who don't need it and giving money that won't be spent and boost the economy.

[Thedelldays]

You can see Cameron's allegiances lie with the upper classes, as opposed to the 'middle-classes'. Households earning between 50-100k per year are comfortable, but nowhere near the income of those who his inheritance tax cuts will benefit. It's not just upper class vs lower class, the many in the middle are clearly forgotten.

yet, you think those on £50k a year should get state help.?

[Ludwig]

Cameron 41%

Clegg 34%

Brown 25%

 

According to Murdoch.

[trousers]

 

According to Murdoch.

No, it was the bigoted voters....

[Thedelldays]

YouGov and Angus Reid are both calling the third debate for Cameron. YouGov have figures of Cameron 41%, Brown 25%, Clegg 32%.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

All the new jobs created since 1997 have gone to immigrants. Brown is completely full of ****.

 

Talking sh1te again Stanley.

[SuperMikey]

they were talking about illegals

 

Ok, well switch migrants for immigrants then. I think they should definitely have the right to stay here if they've lived here for more than 10 years, worked or are working and contribute to the economy. In fact, it'd be stupid to kick them out. Taking 600,000 people out of the workforce is just sheer moronism.

[trousers]

YouGov and Angus Reid are both calling the third debate for Cameron. YouGov have figures of Cameron 41%, Brown 25%, Clegg 32%.

Yeah, but Mandy and Campbell are saying the polls don't mean anything so we can all ignore them. Sigh.

[Thedelldays]

Ok, well switch migrants for immigrants then. I think they should definitely have the right to stay here if they've lived here for more than 10 years, worked or are working and contribute to the economy. In fact, it'd be stupid to kick them out. Taking 600,000 people out of the workforce is just sheer moronism.

they were talking about illegal immigrants..the ones that DONT have the right to be here...they are not in the work force (unless they work cash-in-hand) and the amnesty the libs propose will allow around 600,000 of them to bring over 1 reletive each and then they will have the welfare system open to them..which, if they are here illegally in the first place, they would mostly use

[AndyNorthernSaints]

YouGov and Angus Reid are both calling the third debate for Cameron. YouGov have figures of Cameron 41%, Brown 25%, Clegg 32%.

 

Cameron did not answer any question from or even look at Brown. He would not deny he will make the rich millionaires of this country richer and the poor poorer. Same old Tory....

[dune]

Talking sh1te again Stanley.

 

BRITISH JOBS PLEDGE SHATTERED AS 98% GIVEN TO IMMIGRANTS

 

Official figures revealed that more than nine out 10 of the 1.7 million jobs added to the economy since 1997 have gone to workers from overseas.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/167882/British-jobs-pledge-shattered-as-98-given-to-immigrants

[View From The Top]

BRITISH JOBS PLEDGE SHATTERED AS 98% GIVEN TO IMMIGRANTS

 

Official figures revealed that more than nine out 10 of the 1.7 million jobs added to the economy since 1997 have gone to workers from overseas.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/167882/British-jobs-pledge-shattered-as-98-given-to-immigrants

 

 

You really couldn't be thicker.

[dune]

You really couldn't be thicker.

 

I see you've reverted back to form.

[View From The Top]

I see you've reverted back to form.

 

And you remain as thick as pig sh*t.

[SuperMikey]

they were talking about illegal immigrants..the ones that DONT have the right to be here...they are not in the work force (unless they work cash-in-hand) and the amnesty the libs propose will allow around 600,000 of them to bring over 1 reletive each and then they will have the welfare system open to them..which, if they are here illegally in the first place, they would mostly use

 

Well, that doesn't really fit with the whole "98% of jobs have been given to immigrants" spiel that Stanley...I mean, 'dune', is coming out with now. We're talking about giving them citizenship, i've got no issues with that. If you lived and worked in say, Bulgaria, for 10 years, built your home there, had a job, your family were there with you, would you say that you were entitled to say you were a Bulgarian citizen? The fact that these people have come here illegally is irrelevant now, because they're here now and have been for quite some time. Nothing we can do about that. What we can do is incorporate them into our system so they can benefit everyone by paying taxes and contributing to the economy. Nothing wrong with that imho.

 

What would you do with these 600,000 people then if you don't agree with this policy?

[AndyNorthernSaints]

How thick are you Stanley!!! deluded white power mad nutter all rolled into one. You need help!!!!!!!!!!

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Well, that doesn't really fit with the whole "98% of jobs have been given to immigrants" spiel that Stanley...I mean, 'dune', is coming out with now. We're talking about giving them citizenship, i've got no issues with that. If you lived and worked in say, Bulgaria, for 10 years, built your home there, had a job, your family were there with you, would you say that you were entitled to say you were a Bulgarian citizen? The fact that these people have come here illegally is irrelevant now, because they're here now and have been for quite some time. Nothing we can do about that. What we can do is incorporate them into our system so they can benefit everyone by paying taxes and contributing to the economy. Nothing wrong with that imho.

 

What would you do with these 600,000 people then if you don't agree with this policy?

 

Well if you recognise their illegal status then I would get them to leave and ensure that we would have 600,000 jobs made available to those that are legal British citizens.

[Thedelldays]

Well, that doesn't really fit with the whole "98% of jobs have been given to immigrants" spiel that Stanley...I mean, 'dune', is coming out with now. We're talking about giving them citizenship, i've got no issues with that. If you lived and worked in say, Bulgaria, for 10 years, built your home there, had a job, your family were there with you, would you say that you were entitled to say you were a Bulgarian citizen? The fact that these people have come here illegally is irrelevant now, because they're here now and have been for quite some time. Nothing we can do about that. What we can do is incorporate them into our system so they can benefit everyone by paying taxes and contributing to the economy. Nothing wrong with that imho.

 

What would you do with these 600,000 people then if you don't agree with this policy?

 

 

well, thankfully, the libdems will never gain enough power (if at all) to come close to this barmy idea

[dune]

And you remain as thick as pig sh*t.

 

You just don't like the facts.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

How thick are you Stanley!!! deluded white power mad nutter all rolled into one. You need help!!!!!!!!!!

 

Try to argue the point rather than the poster.

[benjii]

You can see Cameron's allegiances lie with the upper classes, as opposed to the 'middle-classes'. Households earning between 50-100k per year are comfortable, but nowhere near the income of those who his inheritance tax cuts will benefit. It's not just upper class vs lower class, the many in the middle are clearly forgotten.

 

No one should have to pay inheritance tax. No one at all, ever IMO. It's just a callous money grab and is quite distasteful. Not surprising it's quite popular with the lefties.

[saintkiptanui]

You're all thicko c*nts who think you know what you are talking about but you don't, the most thick is Thorpe le saint and Dune, interestingly both at different ends of the sectrum but both utter Drapers.

[dune]

Those on the left say they want a deabte about immigration, but as soon as you provide a link to official figures that don't suit their agenda they get all abusive.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Try to argue the point rather than the poster.

 

Try not to be as stupid as him.

[benjii]

I imagine VFTT must be pretty close to a ban...

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Those on the left say they want a deabte about immigration, but as soon as you provide a link to official figures that don't suit their agenda they get all abusive.

 

We don't suit your white power racist agenda Stanley.

[Thedelldays]

I imagine VFTT must be pretty close to a ban...

No chance

 

He used to be abusive to me.

Just ignore it

[dune]

We don't suit your white power racist agenda.

 

Are the official figures wrong?

[SuperMikey]

Well if you recognise their illegal status then I would get them to leave and ensure that we would have 600,000 jobs made available to those that are legal British citizens.

 

But of the 2.5m unemployed, how many would want to be cleaning public toilets or flipping burgers at Little Chef?

Also, you say "get them to leave" like you could just flick a switch and they'll all vanish. I can safely say that any operation like that would take years, if not decades, to remove all 600k from the country, and we just don't have the resources now to mount an operation on that kind of scale at the moment. It makes a lot more sense for these people to stay and help us through the difficult time we're having rather than getting them to clear off and leaving us with a gaping hole in the workforce which isn't going to be filled by unemployed web designers and software engineers, let me tell you.

 

well, thankfully, the libdems will never gain enough power (if at all) to come close to this barmy idea

 

How exactly is it barmy? It's the only immigration policy of the 3 main parties which is even remotely operational and can be implemented straight away, and it also makes sense. Didn't hear Cameron and Brown talking about how they'll deal with immigration, they shirked the question or changed the topic rather than resort to talking about their p!ss poor policies. At least the Lib Dems have the cojones to tackle the issue and go public about it, the only other parties to do that really are the BNP and UKIP, so what does that say about the parties at this election?

 

And I wouldn't speak too soon about Lib Dems not getting enough power to implement it, if we end up with a LibLab coalition (looking unlikely now) then i'm sure the Libs will push it and Labour don't have an alternative solution. If the Conservatives form a coalition with the SNP and Plaid Cymru, we'll have another general election within the year, voters will be disillusioned with the Conservatives and could turn to the Lib Dems, as we've seen with Labour voters flocking to the Libs at this election.

 

Don't speak too soon is all i'm saying...

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Are the official figures wrong?

 

In the Express??????????????

[dune]

In the Express??????????????

 

Would official figures be more official if they were in the Guardian, or are official figures the same wherever they're published?

[benjii]

But of the 2.5m unemployed, how many would want to be cleaning public toilets or flipping burgers at Little Chef?

Also, you say "get them to leave" like you could just flick a switch and they'll all vanish. I can safely say that any operation like that would take years, if not decades, to remove all 600k from the country, and we just don't have the resources now to mount an operation on that kind of scale at the moment. It makes a lot more sense for these people to stay and help us through the difficult time we're having rather than getting them to clear off and leaving us with a gaping hole in the workforce which isn't going to be filled by unemployed web designers and software engineers, let me tell you.

 

 

 

How exactly is it barmy? It's the only immigration policy of the 3 main parties which is even remotely operational and can be implemented straight away, and it also makes sense. Didn't hear Cameron and Brown talking about how they'll deal with immigration, they shirked the question or changed the topic rather than resort to talking about their p!ss poor policies. At least the Lib Dems have the cojones to tackle the issue and go public about it, the only other parties to do that really are the BNP and UKIP, so what does that say about the parties at this election?

 

And I wouldn't speak too soon about Lib Dems not getting enough power to implement it, if we end up with a LibLab coalition (looking unlikely now) then i'm sure the Libs will push it and Labour don't have an alternative solution. If the Conservatives form a coalition with the SNP and Plaid Cymru, we'll have another general election within the year, voters will be disillusioned with the Conservatives and could turn to the Lib Dems, as we've seen with Labour voters flocking to the Libs at this election.

 

Don't speak too soon is all i'm saying...

 

Good post.

[SuperMikey]

Good post.

 

All seems to have gone quiet on the Sergei and TDD front for a bit, so i'm off to bed and i'll check back tomorrow afternoon to see if they've come up with any answers. I'm not holding my breath.

 

xxxxxxxxxx

[badgerx16]

BRITISH JOBS PLEDGE SHATTERED AS 98% GIVEN TO IMMIGRANTS

 

Official figures revealed that more than nine out 10 of the 1.7 million jobs added to the economy since 1997 have gone to workers from overseas.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/167882/British-jobs-pledge-shattered-as-98-given-to-immigrants

http://tabloid-watch.blogspot.com/2010/04/scaremongering-about-immigrants-and.html

 

http://www.fullfact.org/blogdetail/?id=16&sel=blog ( "From this we can deduce that almost 40 per cent of those listed as “foreign born” in the Spectator tables and described by the Mail as “immigrants” are in possession of a British passport" )

Edited 29 April, 2010 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

Are the official figures wrong?

No, but the Express and Daily Hail are in their interpretation of them.

[Whitey Grandad]

We're overcrowded and it's stifling every aspect of our lives. The official figures for the population of Britain are enormous under-estimates and I once saw a figure of 80 million. We can't move, we can't travel on the roads, the trains are full, we can't park in our local supermarkets, we can't find a dentist, we can't even find a campsite in summer. Any talk of economic benefits from immigration is a load of bullocks.