Clegg U turns on coalition commitment

[dune]

So now we know exactly where the Liberals stand. Forget the lies about them forming a government with the party given the mandate - be that the most votes or the most seats, as he has come out today and categorically stated he'll only go into government with the party that agree's to PR voting.

 

The Tories have already said they won't throw away the british system of majority governments in favour of a system that will eave us with coalition governments forever (although they haven't ruled out a referendum), wheras the desperate Labour party have agreed to reform (whatever this reform entails is anyones guess). Based on this it's reasonable to assume that a vote for the Liberals is a vote for Brown and a vote for the end to strong government forever.

 

In a recent poll conducted for ITN 75% of voters said they didn't want a hung parliament, with 20% in favour and 8% undecided, so it's clear that Cleggs demands are not what the public wants. It's disgraceful that he's putting his own agenda above the good of the country and resorting to blackmail when our country is in such a dire economic situation.

[benjii]

If the Tories win a majority then Clegg is irrelevant. If they can't then he is relevant. If you don't agree with that, then I would suggest he has a point with regards to electoral reform.

[dune]

If the Tories win a majority then Clegg is irrelevant. If they can't then he is relevant. If you don't agree with that, then I would suggest he has a point with regards to electoral reform.

 

As i've explained in another thread PR will change politics forever and will radicalise the parties away from the centre ground because of the pacts that will be required. Basically all PR will do is create another two party system with the choice being RIGHT or LEFT due to how parties will ally.

 

I'm very concerned about the unknown, it may work alright, but those Liberals that are so keen on the idea need to realise that a coin has two side and when the Left are not the ruling side of the house it's going to ultra right wing which they'll hate, when the Left are the ruling side of the house it'll be the polar opposite.

[benjii]

Those are valid concerns f'sure but I'm sure it will be as clear cut as that.

[CB Fry]

As i've explained in another thread PR will change politics forever and will radicalise the parties away from the centre ground because of the pacts that will be required. Basically all PR will do is create another two party system with the choice being RIGHT or LEFT due to how parties will ally.

 

I'm very concerned about the unknown, it may work alright, but those Liberals that are so keen on the idea need to realise that a coin has two side and when the Left are not the ruling side of the house it's going to ultra right wing which they'll hate, when the Left are the ruling side of the house it'll be the polar opposite.

 

 

This is a most bizarre set of assumptions of what a PR-driven house of commons would bring about.

 

PR by its nature will force compromise and coalition. You'll get extreme parties in the commons - you might get a Green MP and a BNP MP but not swathes of them. And it certainly won't make the middle ground any less attractive, because most of the country are in the middle ground.

 

And, again, you've started a thread based on tonight's headlines with your usual "ah-haaaaaaaaaa" finality. Nothing is "categorically stated" until the dust clears which might not be until a week after the ballot.

 

It's the tightest election campaign for a generation - expect quite a lot of flex and flux for the next week and a half. You're going to have to roll with it.

[benjii]

Those are valid concerns f'sure but I'm sure it will be as clear cut as that.

 

Just to be clear, I ommitted a "not" from that. CB Fry's version is closer to reality IMO.

[dune]

Those are valid concerns f'sure but I'm sure it will be as clear cut as that.

 

It will though, it stands to reason. Imagine there's a Lib-Lab-Green rulling coalition putting up taxes, scrapping our nuclear deterent, giving our powers to Brussels and the public want change. They'll then vote for one of the parties in the Right wing block to change the direction and these parties will gain over 50% of the vote and in comes the Tories, UKIP, the ulster unionists and the whole political ideology will swing right over from hardline left politics to hardline right politics. Notice i didn't say far left and far right, but it won't be far off it. Don't get me wrong I do want the tories to move to the right and PR will deliver this, but it's going to be hell for people like me when the Left get in. Vice Versa this if you're a leftie. So ask yourself this - what is the effect going to be on society of such polar systems? I can see it leading to political unrest and violence on the streets and we'll end up like a more politically divided nation than America where the Left/Right split is so prominent, however unlike in America the splits in opinion won't be over thosands of miles due to our geographics and overcrowded island so the potential for clashes is greatly increased. In short PR will lead to anarchy.

[CB Fry]

It will though, it stands to reason. Imagine there's a Lib-Lab-Green rulling coalition putting up taxes, scrapping our nuclear deterent, giving our powers to Brussels and the public want change. They'll then vote for one of the parties in the Right wing block to change the direction and these parties will gain over 50% of the vote and in comes the Tories, UKIP, the ulster unionists and the whole political ideology will swing right over from hardline left politics to hardline right politics. Notice i didn't say far left and far right, but it won't be far off it. Don't get me wrong I do want the tories to move to the right and PR will deliver this, but it's going to be hell for people like me when the Left get in. Vice Versa this if you're a leftie. So ask yourself this - what is the effect going to be on society of such polar systems? I can see it leading to political unrest and violence on the streets and we'll end up like a more politically divided nation than America where the Left/Right split is so prominent, however unlike in America the splits in opinion won't be over thosands of miles due to our geographics and overcrowded island so the potential for clashes is greatly increased. In short PR will lead to anarchy.

 

 

So what you seem to be saying is PR will deliver more decisive government than the current system which delivers middle ground fudge?

 

I have never heard one opponent of PR ever use that argument before now and it certainly isn't the argument the Tories are using.

[dune]

So what you seem to be saying is PR will deliver more decisive government than the current system which delivers middle ground fudge?

 

I have never heard one opponent of PR ever use that argument before now and it certainly isn't the argument the Tories are using.

 

Decisive poltics isn't the word, radical is the word. Gone will be the days of centre ground politics. It's a step into the unknown and it's not without great danger.

 

And i couldn't give a toss what the Tories or anyone else are saying, I make my own mind up on issues.

[Badger]

The bizarre irony is that if either Brown or Cameron concede on the issue of PR then we are likely to have hung parliaments time after time.

The prospect of a government with up to 30% of the house occupied by simpering liberals,not to mention a few extremes as well,is not an attractive proposition.

[CB Fry]

Decisive poltics isn't the word, radical is the word. Gone will be the days of centre ground politics. It's a step into the unknown and it's not without great danger.

 

And i couldn't give a toss what the Tories or anyone else are saying, I make my own mind up on issues.

 

 

Which is fine, but you are a pioneer in thinking that proportional representation brings about radical politics.

 

Everyone else on both sides of the PR debate from passionately for to rabidly against would agree it does nothing of the sort.

 

Everyone (except you) who is vehemently opposed to PR hates it because it creates coalition, compromised mush of a government with no clear political vision with each government an inch left or right of the one before it.

 

And those that support it do so because it creates a government of plurality, of lots of different voices compromising and it prevents radical government.

 

So you are clearly a visionary because you're out there on your own on this one.

[revolution saint]

So now we know exactly where the Liberals stand. Forget the lies about them forming a government with the party given the mandate - be that the most votes or the most seats, as he has come out today and categorically stated he'll only go into government with the party that agree's to PR voting.

 

The Tories have already said they won't throw away the british system of majority governments in favour of a system that will eave us with coalition governments forever (although they haven't ruled out a referendum), wheras the desperate Labour party have agreed to reform (whatever this reform entails is anyones guess). Based on this it's reasonable to assume that a vote for the Liberals is a vote for Brown and a vote for the end to strong government forever.

 

In a recent poll conducted for ITN 75% of voters said they didn't want a hung parliament, with 20% in favour and 8% undecided, so it's clear that Cleggs demands are not what the public wants. It's disgraceful that he's putting his own agenda above the good of the country and resorting to blackmail when our country is in such a dire economic situation.

 

For a person who'll be voting BNP precisely because you think it will lurch the Tories further to the right you have a bizarre way of expressing your opinions. Surely PR in this case would strengthen your case? Or was that last week's opinion?

[dune]

For a person who'll be voting BNP precisely because you think it will lurch the Tories further to the right you have a bizarre way of expressing your opinions. Surely PR in this case would strengthen your case? Or was that last week's opinion?

 

I'm voting UKIP, keep up. And yes PR will strengthen my beliefs when the right is in office, but equally when the left is in it's going to annoy me immensely. It's the extreme yo yoing that PR will bring that worries me because it could lead to anarchy.

[revolution saint]

I'm voting UKIP, keep up. And yes PR will strengthen my beliefs when the right is in office, but equally when the left is in it's going to annoy me immensely. It's the extreme yo yoing that PR will bring that worries me because it could lead to anarchy.

 

I apologise, although i could of course argue that UKIP is an extreme party and ironic given your concern about extreme politics. Shouldn't you be voting for a main stream party, or is that next week's opinion?

 

You really are a gift though - don't stop.

[Mao Cap]

I apologise, although i could of course argue that UKIP is an extreme party and ironic given your concern about extreme politics. Shouldn't you be voting for a main stream party, or is that next week's opinion?

 

You really are a gift though - don't stop.

 

HOT TIP - For a sneak preview of Dune's new opinions next week, read whatever those loathsome slugs McKinstry or Flynn are saying in the Express.

[1976_Child]

Clegg's a ****. End of.

[dune]

I apologise, although i could of course argue that UKIP is an extreme party and ironic given your concern about extreme politics. Shouldn't you be voting for a main stream party, or is that next week's opinion?

 

You really are a gift though - don't stop.

 

I'm concerned about wacky left wing parties such as the Liberals and the Greens being part of the left wing pact, this will be the price of PR. When they get in you're going to see the Far Right react with anger and their ranks swell, conversely when the right wing pact is in power comprising the Tories and UKIP etc you're going to see the lefties up in arms and their ranks swell. PR will see the far right and the far left grow and in my opinion this will lead to a rise in civil disturbances.

[bungle]

http://saintsweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=21881

[ecuk268]

Decisive poltics isn't the word, radical is the word. Gone will be the days of centre ground politics. It's a step into the unknown and it's not without great danger.

 

And i couldn't give a toss what the Tories or anyone else are saying, I make my own mind up on issues.

 

Germany had had coalition governments for ages and it hasn't done them any harm. Many of the prosperous European countries have coalitions which work perfectly well.

[dune]

Germany had had coalition governments for ages and it hasn't done them any harm. Many of the prosperous European countries have coalitions which work perfectly well.

 

Coalitions may deliver centre ground politics in other countries but that won't happen here. I'm not saying the alliances won't be workable, but what I am saying is that the alliances will divide the nation and lead to anarchy.

[Joensuu]

Coalitions may deliver centre ground politics in other countries but that won't happen here. I'm not saying the alliances won't be workable, but what I am saying is that the alliances will divide the nation and lead to anarchy.

 

Source?

[dune]

Source?

 

Me.

 

Tell me why i'm wrong.

[Joensuu]

Me.

 

Tell me why i'm wrong.

 

Lack of supporting evidence. Oh, and plenty of evidence to the contrary on the continent.

[OldNick]

In my living memory we had one hung parliament.... boy that was a barrel of laughs for the nation.

Fashion goes in circles and the 1970's are all the rage I didn't think it would be the same for politics.

As Reagan said 'You aint seen nothing yet' sleepwalking into the unknown all on the back of the first ever 90 minute tv debate.Lol

[dune]

Lack of supporting evidence. Oh, and plenty of evidence to the contrary on the continent.

 

I couldn't care less what happens on the continent. The fact is that in this country the left would be a Lib-Lab-possible green alliance and the right would be a Con-UKIP-Unionist alliance. Such alliances would take us away from centre ground politics and would lead to tensions. How you can deny such a rational arguement that is applicable to our country, not some other country that where PR may work alright, is beyond me.

[Joensuu]

In my living memory we had one hung parliament.... boy that was a barrel of laughs for the nation.

Fashion goes in circles and the 1970's are all the rage I didn't think it would be the same for politics.

As Reagan said 'You aint seen nothing yet' sleepwalking into the unknown all on the back of the first ever 90 minute tv debate.Lol

 

1974 was a complete failure, and has managed to scare people away from hung parliaments, which are usually decisive, representative, and perfectly workable.

[dune]

To put it another way the current choice is between centre right and centre left, but under PR the choice will be between hardline right and hardline left. So you Liberals had better not start moaning WHEN a hardline right coalition is in power because you'll have made the bed so you'll have to lie in it.

[Joensuu]

I couldn't care less what happens on the continent. The fact is that in this country the left would be a Lib-Lab-possible green alliance and the right would be a Con-UKIP-Unionist alliance. Such alliances would take us away from centre ground politics and would lead to tensions.

 

Away from the centre ground, possibly, but these things balance out. More representative of the views of the country, definately.

 

It is likely that more parties will form, each representing a niche opinion - it won't just be left v right as you imagine.

 

How you can deny such a rational arguement that is applicable to our country, not some other country that where PR may work alright, is beyond me.

 

Because, I find your assumption (that the very similar countries who we neighbour are too different to use as examples for how the UK might work) to be rather bizarre. We have similar economies, education systems, desires, politics, welfare, sport, recreation, desires and lifestyles. Why would we not be similar when it comes to how a hung parliament might function?

 

Would a carrot seed and a parsnip seed be too different to each other to assume that they might act in different ways when planted?

[View From The Top]

Me.

 

:smt043

[Joensuu]

To put it another way the current choice is between centre right and centre left, but under PR the choice will be between hardline right and hardline left. So you Liberals had better not start moaning WHEN a hardline right coalition is in power because you'll have made the bed so you'll have to lie in it.

 

Or perhaps you could choose to vote for the middle. Why couldn't centre right and centre left parties be able to form a centralist block?

[dune]

:smt043

 

You're a one trick pony VFTT. You're only capable of insults or sarcasm or acting like a silly kid. Debate the point and stop acting like an idiot.

[Joensuu]

You're a one trick pony VFTT. You're only capable of insults or sarcasm or acting like a silly kid. Debate the point and stop acting like an idiot.

 

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/JoeHollon/2010-02-14_202320_KettleCallingPotBlack.jpg

[dune]

Away from the centre ground, possibly, but these things balance out. More representative of the views of the country, definately.

 

It is likely that more parties will form, each representing a niche opinion - it won't just be left v right as you imagine.

 

Depending on the structure of a PR system focus groups may get the odd MP in, but essebtially the coalitions will be made up on the basis of left and right. The nationalists are the exception, but the Union is dieing anyway thanks to devolution and in a few years time Scotland will no longer be represented at westminster.

[dune]

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/JoeHollon/2010-02-14_202320_KettleCallingPotBlack.jpg

 

Every other post from VFTT is an insult or sarcasm. Tell me why i'm wrong by all means - that is what debate is about.

[badgerx16]

Democracy is 22% of the electorate delivering a 66 seat overall majority.

 

LOL

[Joensuu]

Depending on the structure of a PR system focus groups may get the odd MP in, but essebtially the coalitions will be made up on the basis of left and right. The nationalists are the exception, but the Union is dieing anyway thanks to devolution and in a few years time Scotland will no longer be represented at westminster.

 

If the majority of people vote towards the centre, won't a PR system mean that the majority of MPs who are elected represent a central party (whether moderate left, right, authoritarian or liberal)? Why would coalitions be made of the basis of left and right?

 

Scotland may or may not continue to be part of the union. For the first time in three hundred years the majority of English people don't care whether the are or not, and while a slim majority of Scots realise what they would lose and want to retain the union. Under FPTP losing Scotland would cement years of Tory governments; under PR losing Scotland would not really change the balance of power too significantly.

[TopGun]

I think Clegg is overplaying his hand. I expect the LD vote to start to fall between now and next Thursday as voters start to make hard choices.

[Joensuu]

Every other post from VFTT is an insult or sarcasm. Tell me why i'm wrong by all means - that is what debate is about.

 

To be fair VFTT's post was sarcastic (you did make a rather daft blunder), but it wasn't insulting. Some of the statements you have made about race and environment are far more inaccurate and insulting IMO.

[Joensuu]

I think Clegg is overplaying his hand. I expect the LD vote to start to fall between now and next Thursday as voters start to make hard choices.

 

I am worried he has said too much, and should have stayed stum. He buckled under the weight of Tory pressure to reveal his hand, and has revealed the only hand he could. Who knows how it will change the polls, it could work tactically to Clegg’s favour, but I fear it might have been a bit too cavalier.

[View From The Top]

I think Clegg is overplaying his hand. I expect the LD vote to start to fall between now and next Thursday as voters start to make hard choices.

 

I'd agree with that.

[View From The Top]

You're a one trick pony VFTT. You're only capable of insults or sarcasm or acting like a silly kid. Debate the point and stop acting like an idiot.

 

Get real. You're a not very bright neo-nazi white supremacist whose opinion changes with the editorials in a newspaper.

 

You are incapable of debate as you do not posses the ability to come up with anything logical, sensible or rationale.

[dune]

Democracy is 22% of the electorate delivering a 66 seat overall majority.

 

LOL

 

I can't argue against that, it's not fair, but what i'm doing is saying how I think PR would work and if you think hardline politics would be a good thing then fine. But bare in mind that it'd be hardline for both sides. If you can accept this and and agree not to complain when a hardline coalition not to your leaning is in power then fine, but ask yourself this - will everyone else be so understanding?

[The9]

So now we know exactly where the Liberals stand. Forget the lies about them forming a government with the party given the mandate - be that the most votes or the most seats, as he has come out today and categorically stated he'll only go into government with the party that agree's to PR voting.

 

Smart move given that it's been Liberal/SDP/Alliance/Lib Dem policy since at least 1985 and it's also the only way to get themselves more representation - or "fair" representation if you agree that Parliament should reflect the exact breakdown of voter intentions, rather than just making the majority of votes count for nothing.

[dune]

Get real. You're a not very bright neo-nazi white supremacist whose opinion changes with the editorials in a newspaper.

 

You are incapable of debate as you do not posses the ability to come up with anything logical, sensible or rationale.

 

And yet again you've ignored the subject of the thread and instead resulted to insults. Insult me by PM if you want, but what benefit does this nonsense bring to the debate. You've said the same thing countless times already so everyone knows your view. It's boring now though and is making you look daft when you're clearly not.

[benjii]

And yet again you've ignored the subject of the thread and instead resulted to insults. Insult me by PM if you want, but what benefit does this nonsense bring to the debate. You've said the same thing countless times already so everyone knows your view. It's boring now though and is making you look daft when you're clearly not.

 

Agreed.

[solentstars]

It will though, it stands to reason. Imagine there's a Lib-Lab-Green rulling coalition putting up taxes, scrapping our nuclear deterent, giving our powers to Brussels and the public want change. They'll then vote for one of the parties in the Right wing block to change the direction and these parties will gain over 50% of the vote and in comes the Tories, UKIP, the ulster unionists and the whole political ideology will swing right over from hardline left politics to hardline right politics. Notice i didn't say far left and far right, but it won't be far off it. Don't get me wrong I do want the tories to move to the right and PR will deliver this, but it's going to be hell for people like me when the Left get in. Vice Versa this if you're a leftie. So ask yourself this - what is the effect going to be on society of such polar systems? I can see it leading to political unrest and violence on the streets and we'll end up like a more politically divided nation than America where the Left/Right split is so prominent, however unlike in America the splits in opinion won't be over thosands of miles due to our geographics and overcrowded island so the potential for clashes is greatly increased. In short PR will lead to anarchy.

 

i worry about you,do you see doom and gloom in everything apart from your love of conservatives and a hitler loving bnp party.

[solentstars]

I think Clegg is overplaying his hand. I expect the LD vote to start to fall between now and next Thursday as voters start to make hard choices.

did someone post the same thing last week:D

[Lord Duckhunter]

Michael Portillo was on "This week" last night, he said Clegg was talking too much and therefore could make a big mistake.

[solentstars]

just seen the most pathetic party political broadcast by the conservative party ever,do they think the British public are that thick.

 

no wonder they are struggling to get pass their core support,so much for change:rolleyes:

[John B]

Me.

 

Tell me why i'm wrong.

 

The problems with coalitions is that the electorate do not actually know what policies will be adopted after the election because some of each of the partners will be adopted.

 

Labour have suggested some kind of PR ie AV to be decided by a Referendum.

 

 

The Tories dont like the thought of PR because Lab/Lib seems to be a more likely partnership than Con/Lib - lots of Liberal supporters came from the SDP the breakaway section of the Labour Party