Why Won't The Liberals Answer The Question?

[Thedelldays]

As for the Trident issue, I think that it's outdated, and if we really do need a nuclear deterrent then there are other options out there. Of course, that doesn't fit in with the savings scheme that Clegg et al have outlined, but politicians rarely stick to their guns.

what other credible options are to provide an effective nuclear deterent (

[View From The Top]

You might think you know it all, but you don't.

 

So the US enquiries into the war in Iraq, that concluded that there was no evidence of Iraq being a safe haven for terrorists is wrong is it?

 

I think General Petraeus is slightly better placed than you.

 

Out. Of. Your. Depth.

[SuperMikey]

what other credible options are to provide an effective nuclear deterent (

 

I'm not a nuclear scientist or arms expert, so I can't sit here and go through a list of options, because i've not got much knowledge on the subject. All I know is that there is not just one form of nuclear defense out there, why not try something like missile silos? Help a brotha' out here?

[Thedelldays]

I'm not a nuclear scientist or arms expert, so I can't sit here and go through a list of options, because i've not got much knowledge on the subject. All I know is that there is not just one form of nuclear defense out there, why not try something like missile silos? Help a brotha' out here?

so you just threw that line in to make a point...?

believe it or not, the set up we have is the best and cheapest option

[SuperMikey]

so you just threw that line in to make a point...?

believe it or not, the set up we have is the best and cheapest option

 

I'm not completely clueless on the subject, I do have an idea of the different systems, but i'm not sure on what's available, practical and cost-effective. That's for the big boys to talk about. However, Clegg has said time and time again that Trident is a waste of money and there are other options, so i'll take his word on the subject.

[dune]

Any opportunity eh Dune? If Clegg has said they'll side with whoever has the biggest mandate, and that's what will happen if we find ourselves in a hung parliament situation. Pretty simple really. I would say that the 2 MPs that you've seen shirk the question were relatively small MPs in terms of power in the party, so they didn't want to give an answer which doesn't fit with the opinions of the main politicians.

 

But they wouldn't answer whether the party with the most seats had the mandate or the party with the most votes. I'm sure Clegg will be asked to clarify soon and he'll dodge the question just the same. So we can only believe the poltical commentators who say the Liberals will cosy up to Brown if his party has more seats but less votes. Do you think if they did this they'd be supporting the party with the mandate?

[Thedelldays]

I'm not completely clueless on the subject, I do have an idea of the different systems, but i'm not sure on what's available, practical and cost-effective. That's for the big boys to talk about. However, Clegg has said time and time again that Trident is a waste of money and there are other options, so i'll take his word on the subject.

well, the powers at be (who are always trying to penny pinch from the MoD) say otherwise..

 

I would not be surprised if Clegg (if he won the election) held off or even reversed his views on Trident

 

SM Launched ballistic missiles are the best (operationally) and cheapest option for a credible nuclear deterent..

[View From The Top]

so you just threw that line in to make a point...?

believe it or not, the set up we have is the best and cheapest option

 

Current yes. Future replacement no.

[Thedelldays]

Current yes. Future replacement no.

cheapest option (should we keep a deterent) is infact, upgrading the current set up

 

personally, I reckon when the current V-class submarines die, that will be that

[dune]

So the US enquiries into the war in Iraq, that concluded that there was no evidence of Iraq being a safe haven for terrorists is wrong is it?

 

I think General Petraeus is slightly better placed than you.

 

Out. Of. Your. Depth.

 

So iraq didn't shelter:

 

Abu Nidal, who, until he was found dead in Baghdad in August 2002, led an organisation responsible for attacks that killed some 300 people.

 

Palestine Liberation Front leader Abu Abbas, who was responsible for the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Laurocruise ship in the Mediterranean. Abbas was captured by U.S. forces April 15.

 

Two Saudis who hijacked a Saudi Arabian Airlines flight to Baghdad in 2000.

 

Abdul Rahman Yasin, who is on the FBI's "most wanted terrorists" list for his alleged role in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

 

This is all a pack of lies is it?

[View From The Top]

So iraq didn't shelter:

 

Abu Nidal, who, until he was found dead in Baghdad in August 2002, led an organisation responsible for attacks that killed some 300 people.

 

Palestine Liberation Front leader Abu Abbas, who was responsible for the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Laurocruise ship in the Mediterranean. Abbas was captured by U.S. forces April 15.

 

Two Saudis who hijacked a Saudi Arabian Airlines flight to Baghdad in 2000.

 

Abdul Rahman Yasin, who is on the FBI's "most wanted terrorists" list for his alleged role in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

 

This is all a pack of lies is it?

 

I refer you to my previous answer.

[dune]

I refer you to my previous answer.

 

I refer you to the facts. You might know nearly everything but as this thread shows you don't quite know it all.

[badgerx16]

Saddam needed removing and he was removed. He was a tyrant that killed people.

 

Why not Mugabe then ? Oh, forgot, no oil.

 

He was a threat to the region

 

North Korea ? Ooops, might be able to defend themselves, let's look somewhere easier.

 

and the country was a safe harbour for Terrorists.

 

Anybody fancy a little intervention in Yemen ? No ? ( Do the Yanks even know where it is ? )

 

The people of Iraq now have a better country and democracy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8629858.stm. Yep, they've got democracy down to a tee !

 

I think the war was justified

No it wasn't,

 

and the result is a better country.

( From Wiki ) In October 2006, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) and the Iraqi government estimated that more than 365,000 Iraqis had been displaced since the 2006 bombing of the al-Askari Mosque, bringing the total number of Iraqi refugees to more than 1.6 million.[66] By 2008, the UNHCR raised the estimate of refugees to a total of about 4.7 million (~16% of the population). The number of refugees estimated abroad was 2 million (a number close to CIA projections[67]) and the number of internally displaced people was 2.7 million.[68] In 2007, Iraq's anti-corruption board reported that 35% of Iraqi children, or about five million children, were orphans.

 

Yep, you're right about that one !

[View From The Top]

I refer you to the facts. You might know nearly everything but as this thread shows you don't quite know it all.

 

I'm take the word of a respected (one of the few) US General over that of a NF rally attending neo-nazi thank you Stanley.

 

I would suggest you go away and brush up on the reports published.

[Joensuu]

Saddam needed removing and he was removed. He was a tyrant that killed people. He was a threat to the region and the country was a safe harbour for Terrorists. The people of Iraq now have a better country and democracy. I think the war was justified and the result is a better country.

 

Even by your own standards, that's incredibly far from the mark.

 

Yes Saddam was a nasty boy, and yes he murdered many of his own people. But we didn't go their for charitable reasons did we? Otherwise we'd have already gone into Harare, Rangoon and Pyongyang. Good job our invasion preserved so many Iraqi lives eh, we wouldn't have more blood on our hands than Saddam?

 

Terrorists were few and far between in Iraq under Saddam. I'm not sure the same can be said right now.

 

Oh, if you think we left Iraq a better country, think again http://www.iraqanalysis.org/info/55 Oh, and I wonder how stable this veritable paradise of a country would be if the remaining 110,000 US forces were to withdraw?

 

To summarise, we took over a mess, then procceeded to stir up a religious storm, murdered huge numbers, encouraged terrorism to flourish, fostered some good old anti-West hatred, all the while syphoning off the crude oil.

 

Just wish we had more Liberal Democrats, and less Torys (especially nasty right wing Torys such as Blair).

[dune]

To summarise, we took over a mess, then procceeded to stir up a religious storm, murdered huge numbers, encouraged terrorism to flourish, fostered some good old anti-West hatred, all the while syphoning off the crude oil.

 

Just wish we had more Liberal Democrats, and less Torys (especially nasty right wing Torys such as Blair).

 

If the war had been "sold" as a war to control the oil reserves would you have supported it? I would.

[Joensuu]

If the war had been "sold" as a war to control the oil reserves would you have supported it? I would.

 

No. I'd have been outraged. (perhaps a little shocked at a government displaying honesty).

[badgerx16]

So iraq didn't shelter:

 

Abu Nidal, who, until he was found dead in Baghdad in August 2002, led an organisation responsible for attacks that killed some 300 people.

 

Why was he in Iraq ? Maybe he wasn't being 'sheltered' after all ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/abu-nidal-notorious-palestinian-mercenary-was-a-us-spy-972812.html

 

Abdul Rahman Yasin, who is on the FBI's "most wanted terrorists" list for his alleged role in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

Yasin was born in the US, and was held by the FBI after the 1993 WTC attack, before being released as a reward for his co-operation with them ! He moved to Iraq, where after a year of 'freedom' he was arrested and held in jail.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/31/60minutes/main510795.shtml

[TopGun]

The Iraq War and Afghanistan are relatively non-issues.

 

All parties would have supported the deployment had they been in power.

 

This is where the LDs get easy votes from non-war supporters. And I don't say I support the war... it's just decisions.

[dune]

Why was he in Iraq ? Maybe he wasn't being 'sheltered' after all ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/abu-nidal-notorious-palestinian-mercenary-was-a-us-spy-972812.html

 

 

Yasin was born in the US, and was held by the FBI after the 1993 WTC attack, before being released as a reward for his co-operation with them ! He moved to Iraq, where after a year of 'freedom' he was arrested and held in jail.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/31/60minutes/main510795.shtml

 

Case 1) All Left wing supposition.

 

Case 2) The word of Saddams authorities.

[dune]

The Iraq War and Afghanistan are relatively non-issues.

 

All parties would have supported the deployment had they been in power.

 

This is where the LDs get easy votes from non-war supporters. And I don't say I support the war... it's just decisions.

 

Top Gun we're going to have stop agreeing with each other.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Well done he's a politician They all do it.

 

I get the feeling that Dune thinks the Tories don't lie.

 

I tend to agree with you.

[View From The Top]

Case 1) All Left wing supposition.

 

Case 2) The word of Saddams authorities.

 

Out. Of. Your. Depth.

[dune]

Out. Of. Your. Depth.

 

VFTT on ignore.

[dune]

I get the feeling that Dune thinks the Tories don't lie.

 

I tend to agree with you.

 

They all lie.

[View From The Top]

VFTT on ignore.

 

Too easy to beat you Mr NF.

[badgerx16]

They all lie.

Well done ! That's the first step.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

They all lie.

 

Of course they do.

 

So are the Tories the best liars?

[dune]

Of course they do.

 

So are the Tories the best liars?

 

In this election thus far the Liberals are the most convincing liars, but up until last week they weren't being pressed on their lies. That's all changed now.

[TopGun]

Top Gun we're going to have stop agreeing with each other.

 

That's because we are socialists Dune.

[dune]

That's because we are socialists Dune.

 

:neutral:

[TopGun]

:neutral:

 

Lol...

 

I am sure Dune that if you think an MP is doing the right thing you would vote for him or her?

[dune]

Lol...

 

I am sure Dune that if you think an MP is doing the right thing you would vote for him or her?

 

I vote on national issues in general elections.

[TopGun]

I vote on national issues in general elections.

 

Me too. That's why I vote Labour rather than waste a vote on the BNP.

[dune]

Me too. That's why I vote Labour rather than waste a vote on the BNP.

 

If you live in a safe seat voting means nothing. If I lived in a marginal i'd vote Tory obviously, but as I don't I choose to use my pointless vote as a protest vote. The more protest votes the BNP get the more chance the Conservatives will move to the right. Of course I could vote UKIP but the BNP make the point better.

[Thedelldays]

the liberals immigration policy is barking

[dune]

the liberals immigration policy is barking

 

Exactly and all the polls show that this policy is dead against the popular view in this country. That's why it's completely mad how anyone could switch and vote for them. It simply illustrates how thick so many people in this country are.

[badgerx16]

It simply illustrates how thick so many people in this country are.

Careful now, you may provoke a few comparisons between pots & kettles.

[dune]

Careful now, you may provoke a few comparisons between pots & kettles.

 

Are we allowed to use that saying nowadays?

[Joensuu]

The more protest votes the BNP get the more chance the Conservatives will move to the right. Of course I could vote UKIP but the BNP make the point better.

 

But the BNP are the the left of the Conservatives Are you a closet communist?

 

[Joensuu]

the liberals immigration policy is barking

 

I beg to differ

[TopGun]

the liberals immigration policy is barking

 

The election won't be won on immigration. It's a high profile but minority issue.

[TopGun]

But the BNP are the the left of the Conservatives Are you a closet communist?

 

 

Respect is just laughable though!

[Yeovil Saint]

The way I look at it is if you imagine this sort of scenario

 

Tories 36% 287 seats

Labour 31% 254 seats

Lib Dems 27% 86 seats

Others 6% (9 DUP, 5 SF, 3 SDLP, 3 Independents, 2 Respect, 1 Green)

 

Then any Tory-Lib Dems coalition would have to have a programme of work that was about 80% Tory and 20% Lib Dem based on the strength each party has in the House. It's not the case that Clegg has to support the largest party, but morally he does have to try to reach an agreement with them. In that scenario, the British electorate won't have given Cameron an absolute majority so he will have to give up something in order to form a government.

 

If both parties can't form an agreement then it might be easier for the Lib Dems and Labour to agree on a programme. One trump card could be that they could offer Clegg the top job as he's personally more popular than Gordon Brown.

 

Off on a tangent, but am I the only person who doesn't want Vince Cable anywhere near the Treasury. Don't know why but I don't trust him one bit.

[dune]

Off on a tangent, but am I the only person who doesn't want Vince Cable anywhere near the Treasury. Don't know why but I don't trust him one bit.

 

I used to respect him but he's wrong about not tackling the deficit straight away. We're in a quicksand like situation and only the Tories will get to work fixing the problem straight away. You look at Greece and that's what will happen to us if we don't act asap.

[Johnny Bognor]

Off on a tangent, but am I the only person who doesn't want Vince Cable anywhere near the Treasury. Don't know why but I don't trust him one bit.

 

I used to think he was OK as he made some of the right noises earlier on in the noughties, but it seems he is now full of his own self importance:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/liberaldemocrats/7534160/Vince-Cable-apologises-for-Treasury-boast.html

 

 

As for St Vince warning us that government borrowing was a major problem in 2003, Oliver "Bleeding" Letwin did the same in 2003, but no-one on here is lauding St Letwin. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3306109.stm)

 

This is a good read....

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/2010/04/07/is-vince-cables-economic-reputation-fully-deserved/

Edited 20 April, 2010 by Johnny Bognor

[dune]

No deal with Cameron after the election, say Lib Dem voters

 

 

Liberal Democrat voters would prefer to see Nick Clegg supporting Gordon Brown – rather than David Cameron – as prime minister in the event of a hung parliament after the election, according to a new survey.

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-deal-with-cameron-after-the-election-say-lib-dem-voters-1948796.html

 

With every day that passes the message is getting out that a vote for the Liberals is a vote for Gordon Brown.

[badgerx16]

No deal with Cameron after the election, say Lib Dem voters

 

 

Liberal Democrat voters would prefer to see Nick Clegg supporting Gordon Brown – rather than David Cameron – as prime minister in the event of a hung parliament after the election, according to a new survey.

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-deal-with-cameron-after-the-election-say-lib-dem-voters-1948796.html

 

With every day that passes the message is getting out that a vote for the Liberals is a vote for Gordon Brown.

And every day it becomes clearer that this is probably the result most of the electorate support.

[Saint_clark]

And every day it becomes clearer that this is probably the result most of the electorate support.

 

Exactly. It would have been impossible for the Lib Dems to gain total power in this election, but it strengthens their position immensely for the next one.

[dune]

Exactly. It would have been impossible for the Lib Dems to gain total power in this election, but it strengthens their position immensely for the next one.

 

It has far deeper repersussions than I think most appreciate. If the Lib-Dems form part of a coalition the whole voting system will be reformed. Two party strong majority government will be gone. In its place we'll be left with minority coaloition governements. Much like when the Liberals were destryoed by Labour at the turn of the last century we're at a tipping point again. It may work because it'll benefit parties I like such as the BNP and UKIP, but with change comes uncertainty and our country could be on a path to ruin.