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Volcanic ash cloud

Pancake

By Pancake,
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dune

dune

Posted
Posted
There was a report that military flights were also grounded but I don't know if that was verifed.

 

I think the aviation industry has gone ultra health and safety daft. I rememebe rflying out to muscat and oman a few years ago when there were violent sand storms about . we got diverted to malta and it was just as bad there but we were still allowed to land.

Phil you will know do they still fly aircraft over there during a sandstorm or do they just ground the planes in Dubai

 

That's a point, The canary islands regularly suffer from the Calima but it never stops flights as far as i'm aware.

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dune

dune

Posted
Posted
Is there a difference, though, between potential damage from the 'ash' that is, I understand, like powdered glass and sand?

 

Any geologists out there?

 

I think like you say it's a glass like powder that heats up and melts as it enters the jet engines and then is cooled down and solidifies causing them to seize up.

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dubai_phil

dubai_phil

Posted
Posted
There was a report that military flights were also grounded but I don't know if that was verifed.

 

I think the aviation industry has gone ultra health and safety daft. I rememebe rflying out to muscat and oman a few years ago when there were violent sand storms about . we got diverted to malta and it was just as bad there but we were still allowed to land.

Phil you will know do they still fly aircraft over there during a sandstorm or do they just ground the planes in Dubai

 

That's really a question for Eric:-)

Technically I think the engines are desiged to cope with that, it is the nature of Ash that is the problem IIRC.

 

But in my time here have been grounded for fog (quite common)

 

But also in the middle of July in 42C been grounded by ICE on the wings of the plane...

 

It landed with too much fuel in the tanks, hit high humidity and froze, of course no de-icing kit here and they had to pump the old fuel out and then refuel - took about 2 hours. Mate from UK is moving in today, he's been re-booked for 30th April. BA have SUCH a backlog

 

And no, travel insurance isn't covering it, and no as he was not in transit, BA ain't paying any compensation. He's self employed and fuming, bit like the Volcano.

 

I'm just charging him Food & Drink :cool:

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St Landrew

St Landrew

Posted
Posted

Well the Mt Eyjafjallajöekull [love that name]eruption hadn't personally piddled me off until now, but next week's Motegi MotoGP, in Japan, has been called off until October 4th, because nobody can get there. All the bikes, machinery and kit is there already, after being flown on a week ago from the last MotoGP in Qatar. Bugger it.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/motorbikes/8628316.stm

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mini_me

mini_me

Posted
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Currently stuck in Hong Kong with no chance of a flight for weeks.... already been stranded 3 days and had to move hotels 3 times.......

 

It might sound great to some but just want to get home....

 

Any suggestions on alternative transport/routes welcome ?

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RonManager

RonManager

Posted
Posted
Currently stuck in Hong Kong with no chance of a flight for weeks.... already been stranded 3 days and had to move hotels 3 times.......

 

It might sound great to some but just want to get home....

 

Any suggestions on alternative transport/routes welcome ?

 

This might sound extreme but have you thought about rail. North through China then west through Russia etc. Not that expensive and should take about 7 days.

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mini_me

mini_me

Posted
Posted
This might sound extreme but have you thought about rail. North through China then west through Russia etc. Not that expensive and should take about 7 days.

 

Not as extreme as the prospect of not getting a flight for weeks !

 

I am going to start looking into the visa requirements for this. Getting into Russia is my concern in this respect.

 

Thanks for the suggestion though.

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Nexstar

Nexstar

Posted
Posted

Story off the BBC site:

 

My son is stuck with a school party in Shanghai, China. There are forty 15 to 16 year olds with four teachers there.

They were due to fly back Thursday but have been informed by a business class passenger on the same BA flight they will not be flying before Monday 26 April at the earliest.

We have already looked to see if my son can get back overland and there is a train service from Beijing via Moscow, Copenhagen and Eurostar but it takes 10-12 days....he may have to do this sooner or later.

BA say they will pay for one more night and after that they're on their own. We're not getting a lot of information from the school in Twickenham, but the head teacher is meeting the parents of all the children stuck in China on Monday.

The school opens tomorrow so I guess she's got a bit of a nightmare on her hands. I'm in regular touch with our son - he's run up a £250 mobile phone bill. The LEA has provided additional funding for teachers.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Sounds like Mini Me's story but X40 kids!

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Arizona

Arizona

Posted
Posted

A few points.

 

Lard - Holding isn't really the problem here. At most airports in Europe, holding is unheard of. It's only the busiest places like Heathrow, Frankfurst, Amsterdam etc where it's comon. Even then, it's not particularly a problem with the ash. If anything, you will be below the ash at holding altitudes.

 

Bridge - No, the lack of planes isn't causing nice weather. We had bad weather loooooong before we had planes. There is a nice high pressure system over the UK, which has been giving us this lovely weather. I've got a nice week sat in the sun drunking beer planned.

 

Dune - The Canaries wont be affected by Calima if the airport you're going to is sufficiently upwind of the eruption. Rekjavik airport remained open long after UK airspace was closed.

 

FWIW I don't think this is an overreaction?PC gone mad at all. Thousands of flights accross Europe every week. It only takes one to find a patch of ash and suddenly we've got a 200 ton glider up there.

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dune

dune

Posted
Posted
Currently stuck in Hong Kong with no chance of a flight for weeks.... already been stranded 3 days and had to move hotels 3 times.......

 

It might sound great to some but just want to get home....

 

Any suggestions on alternative transport/routes welcome ?

 

Take a container ship to Madras, then a train to Bombay, then a dow to Oman, then a Camel to Jordan, then walk bare foot through the holy land, thumb a lift to Constantinople, then jump on the Orient Express and bobs your uncle.

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dubai_phil

dubai_phil

Posted
Posted
Currently stuck in Hong Kong with no chance of a flight for weeks.... already been stranded 3 days and had to move hotels 3 times.......

 

It might sound great to some but just want to get home....

 

Any suggestions on alternative transport/routes welcome ?

 

Turkish & Greek Airports open. So fly to Istanbul & take Orient Express? But everyone else is trying to do that. There aren't any rental cars left at most airports let alone taxis or seats on trains.

 

As with the school party, the airlines aren't obliged to help. The problem is that flights to the UK this last weekend were all oversold (normal practice) because of the returning Easter Holidays. 26th for a confirmed flight is better than the BA guys stranded here are getting. Gold card members are getting 26th anyone else is getting 1st May onwards.

 

When you then add those stranded passengers to the normal daily traffic there simply aren't enough empty seats to get everyone back.

 

The EU/Gov could demand that extra flights are laid on to bring back the refugees, but then where are the spare planes? there aren't any, they'll all be in normal daily use. As for kicking off other passengers who had booked for these days - what about their rights? Very tough call. Maybe time to mobilize those old RAF VC-10's and some C-17's...

 

Time for a Branson publicity stunt methinks. Charter some of those big Antonovs and give out blankets and sandwiches, Dunkirk spirit....

 

IF they are allowed to fly.

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Nexstar

Nexstar

Posted
Posted
Turkish & Greek Airports open. So fly to Istanbul & take Orient Express? But everyone else is trying to do that. There aren't any rental cars left at most airports let alone taxis or seats on trains.

 

As with the school party, the airlines aren't obliged to help. The problem is that flights to the UK this last weekend were all oversold (normal practice) because of the returning Easter Holidays. 26th for a confirmed flight is better than the BA guys stranded here are getting. Gold card members are getting 26th anyone else is getting 1st May onwards.

 

When you then add those stranded passengers to the normal daily traffic there simply aren't enough empty seats to get everyone back.

 

The EU/Gov could demand that extra flights are laid on to bring back the refugees, but then where are the spare planes? there aren't any, they'll all be in normal daily use. As for kicking off other passengers who had booked for these days - what about their rights? Very tough call. Maybe time to mobilize those old RAF VC-10's and some C-17's...

 

Time for a Branson publicity stunt methinks. Charter some of those big Antonovs and give out blankets and sandwiches, Dunkirk spirit....

 

IF they are allowed to fly.

 

Yeah, an absolute nightmare for the kids and teachers involved though. It perhaps wouldn't be so bad if the students were a couple of years older and could get hold of some money, but at that age they surely wouldn't be able to withdraw it. It's then up to the 4 teachers to decide on where the students will stay for at least the next 8 days, what to eat/drink and what to do in that time. I'm not sure where they'd get the money for all this either.

 

Massive headache for the headteacher of that school.

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andysstuff

andysstuff

Posted
Posted
Yeah, an absolute nightmare for the kids and teachers involved though. It perhaps wouldn't be so bad if the students were a couple of years older and could get hold of some money, but at that age they surely wouldn't be able to withdraw it. It's then up to the 4 teachers to decide on where the students will stay for at least the next 8 days, what to eat/drink and what to do in that time. I'm not sure where they'd get the money for all this either.

 

Massive headache for the headteacher of that school.

 

Strikes me a visit to the Embassy wouldn'y go amiss?

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Arizona

Arizona

Posted
Posted

 

Nope, just assumed you were talking about volcanic activity.

 

Most aircraft wouldn't fly into a sandstorm, even so dust is not as much of an issue. The big problem is volcanic ash, which, when heated quickly enough and cooled can turn into glass and seize engines.

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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted

Can't they just fit some tights around the front of each jet engine (with some elastic bands or suchlike) so that air can get sucked in but ash particles don't?

 

I once got a 'B' in O-level applied physics. Back in the day when exams were still difficult

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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted
Apparently in the days after 9/11 when the US grounded all of the flights the average temperature in the states spiked upwards by a couple of degrees.

The theory of 'Global Dimming"; ( http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect16/Sect16_2.html )...

The cause of global dimming is largely due to increased soot, ash, and sulphur particles released to the atmosphere by industrial activity and automobile use. The particles serve as nuclei for water droplets that make up clouds. The clouds in turn become more reflective, sending a greater percentage of incoming irradiation back into space. Much of the particulate matter is carbon-rich, being soot caused in part by regional burning of forests and grasslands (both controlled crop-management burning and wildfires). MODIS on Terra and Aqua produced this global map of carbon soot in the atmosphere; wildfires in northwest Siberia account for the high readings there.

globalcarbon_gmao_200607.jpg

 

Carbon distribution in the world's atmosphere for one day in July, 2006.

 

Another factor which seems important in moderating temperatures is the large number of contrails from airplanes, as seen here:

300px-Sfc-contrail-1-26-01.jpg

 

 

Contrails from airplanes, seen looking up from the surface.

 

While the contrails may seem insignificant, their role was indirectly verified as a side effect of 9/11 (the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks in the U.S.). For almost 4 days after the government grounded all commercial flights in the U.S., the amount of measured irradiation increased enough to raise average temperatures by a degree Celsius. Upon resuming flights, this increase was reversed

 

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bristolsaint29

bristolsaint29

Posted
Posted
The problem arises when aircraft are told to start stacking due to various reasons,an aircraft may have to remain at a particular height for a considerable amount of time,if therefore you restrict the window of altitude that aircraft can fly in it can become very congested at particular heights.Also you cannot depend that an aircraft that is in a holding/stacking position will not be effected by ash if it is at the same altitude for long periods,the ash is falling at different rates in different areas.

 

Hopefully you get what i mean.

 

And the rate the fuel burns at lower altitude means planes wouldn't get as far, which could prove a bit of a problem.

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted

 

And the rate the fuel burns at lower altitude means planes wouldn't get as far, which could prove a bit of a problem.

Just ask for £50 extra from anyone who wanted to go. For North American & Caribbean flights keep below 12,000 ft for the first hour and Bob's your mother's brother.

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squiggly_dan

squiggly_dan

Posted
Posted
Currently stuck in Hong Kong with no chance of a flight for weeks.... already been stranded 3 days and had to move hotels 3 times.......

 

It might sound great to some but just want to get home....

 

Any suggestions on alternative transport/routes welcome ?

 

According to the BBC, several parts of Europe are still open, including Southern France. It appears that Air France have re-routed a number of their flights to Toulouse, and you can currently get a one-way ticket from Hong Kong departing Tuesday for under £1000+tax.

 

It might be worth phoning Airlines serving Hong Kong and Greece, Lithuania, Portugal, Russia, Turkey, Ukraine, Spain, Italy, Norway, Bulgaria, Sweden, Poland and France to see if there are any cheaper options (the Hong Kong Airport website will probably have route maps).

 

A simple train ride once in Europe to Northern France, and hopefully the ferry/Eurostar options will be viable once you arrive!

 

Please let us know how you are getting on, and if I can help!

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dune

dune

Posted
Posted
How exactly ? You either choke on particulate pollution or fry due to MMGW.

 

But surely it's the burning of fossil fuel that causes that nasty blanket of polution that is melting the ice caps and is called MMGW - that's what the climate brigade keep saying. The greens want less planes flying because of the CO2 emisions and the Ice caps melting caused by it. Are you now saying that's wrong? If it's true that planes not flying causes temperatures to increase then it quite clearly means that the stories we've been fed about MMGW is simply nonsense.

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squiggly_dan

squiggly_dan

Posted
Posted
Complete non-starter, this idea. The crisis would be over by the time the UK got organised.

 

I think it is a good idea actually - assuming a number of airlines usually have two opposing planes in the air on long-haul flights, only half would be trapped in Europe. This means that they could fly people into France/Spain, then put them on boats back home.

 

Even if it takes some time to organise, it has to be better than people trapped on the other side of the world with no money to pay for accomodation - surely this is the type of crisis the EU was designed for? :lol:

 

Just think, the Royal Navy could serve a purpose for once, and provide an expedited freight and passenger service for the UK for a few weeks! :wink:

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted

I was working on Jersey, due to fly back to Southampton on Friday evening. Luckily I went to the Ferry terminal at St. Helier to inquire as to the sailings and prices. I got there at about 9.40 and already there was a large queue trying to book for Weymouth, Poole, or Portsmouth. Their computer terminals were down and they were short staffed. Eventually, nearly two hours later, I got a ticket to Portsmouth. The tickets for all three destinations sold out soon afterwards and on my trip, there were no cabin or seats available, so I had to sleep on the floor in the bar, along with dozens of others. Not nice. Not so bad for those who would have been flying into Southampton, but the ferry also had passengers on board who were there from cancelled flights to destinations all around the UK and they had to then arrange their onward journeys.

Strangely, flights between Jersey and Guernsey were OK, but quite why they couldn't just go 100 miles or so in a turbo-prop aircraft in the extreme South of Britain, is beyond me.

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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted
But surely it's the burning of fossil fuel that causes that nasty blanket of polution that is melting the ice caps and is called MMGW - that's what the climate brigade keep saying. The greens want less planes flying because of the CO2 emisions and the Ice caps melting caused by it. Are you now saying that's wrong? If it's true that planes not flying causes temperatures to increase then it quite clearly means that the stories we've been fed about MMGW is simply nonsense.

No, it is quite simple - surely even enough for you !

 

There are 2 main effects in action, according to the prevailing theories. The first is MMGW, caused by generating large quantities of CO2, methane, & water vapour, which act as greenhouse gases and cause temperature rises experienced at surface levels of the planet. The second is the effect of particulate pollution, ( which is also a side effect of burning fossil fuels ), which when it reaches critical higher levels acts to reflect solar radiation, and therefore cools the planetary ecosystem. The second acts to reduce the effect of the first.

At lower levels, particularly during take-off, climbing to cruising altitudes, and landing, aircraft are contributing to the greenhouse effect, once at heights above 30,000 feet they are predominantly adding to GD.

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