Leaders debate

[Saintandy666]

Scientific poll conducted for ITV had Clegg winning by a country mile.

[View From The Top]

There is an issue that a minority party that wants proportional representation gets more than proportional airtime. Dave was really the only one having to fight battles on two fronts which generally never works.

 

My point was that it makes Camerons job much harder. Clegg had fraudon agreeing with him most of the evening, which made cleggs job far easier. Watching Brown suck up to Clegg made me want to vomit.

The TV Polls have it as:

 

1. Clegg

2. Cameron (who scored well on some issues)

3. Fraudon

 

I would say that is how I saw it, in terms of performance (rather than policy). In terms of policy, I think cameron as more realistic, because the other two promised the earth, when we all know that there will be massive cuts whoever wins the election.

 

Amen to that comrade.

[Johnny Bognor]

Amen to that comrade.

 

Short of going to Cleggs lecturn, unzipping his flies and sucking him off, Clown made Cleggs job easy.

 

Now as you seem to agree with me (to some extent), would you agree that this made Cameron's job far harder?

 

To combat this, Cameron will have to be far more direct in future debates.

[View From The Top]

Short of going to Cleggs lecturn, unzipping his flies and sucking him off, Clown made Cleggs job easy.

 

Now as you seem to agree with me (to some extent), would you agree that this made Cameron's job far harder?

 

To combat this, Cameron will have to be far more direct in future debates.

 

No, I don't agree with you as I thought Clegg was as uncompromising with Brown as he was with Cameron, if not more so.

 

What he did very well was play the middle ground card which used to be the preserve of the tories before Blair stole it. It was very canny.

 

Brown is a cu*t and no matter what he does, a seismic shift isn't going to occur so it was Cameron's chance to really shine, avoid sounding like a toff and to project a sense of being a premier in waiting and I thought his own personal performance was well short of that which I'm very surprised at.

[Chin Strain]

Apart from his current MPship, he has only before been an MEP for the East Midlands prior to becoming MP.

 

True....0 out of 2 for his local area then!

[Johnny Bognor]

No, I don't agree with you as I thought Clegg was as uncompromising with Brown as he was with Cameron, if not more so.

 

What he did very well was play the middle ground card which used to be the preserve of the tories before Blair stole it. It was very canny.

 

Brown is a cu*t and no matter what he does, a seismic shift isn't going to occur so it was Cameron's chance to really shine, avoid sounding like a toff and to project a sense of being a premier in waiting and I thought his own personal performance was well short of that which I'm very surprised at.

 

In terms of political fallout, the loser is Labour. Much of the tory vote 37-38% will hold. I can see much of the labour support switching to the lib dems to the point where they could be the official opposition.

 

They did a poll in the Bolton marginal, but you could never see them going for a toff / southern bastard. On that poll, the seat goes from Labour to Lib Dem.

[Berkshire Saint]

I know....I'm assuming he's got a house in Sheffield....

 

I'm never too sure whether to trust an MP who represents people from an area that they're not connected to. He seems to go wherever he has a chance of being elected.

 

Hardly any MPs are actually from their local constituency.

[SuperMikey]

Brown - Didn't do as badly as I thought he would. Made some good points, asked some tricky questions for the other 2 candidates (mainly focussed on Cameron) and came across OK. I don't like Labour's new policies, but contrary to public opinion, i'd rather have somebody with 3 or 4 years experience as PM running the country at the moment than somebody with none, preferably in a hung parliament with the Lib Dems.

 

Cameron - I don't know what it is about him, but I really loathe the guy. He seems to think he's some kind of messiah, but he just comes across to me as a bit of a jumped up posh tw*t. Didn't handle himself too well when it came to debating with the other candidates rather than just answering questions. The whole 'servicemen and women in Afghanistan' shabang just made me want to gag, it's obvious he really doesn't give a flying f*ck. He just wants to cosy up in Number 10 with Black Beaut...er, I mean Samantha Cameron.

 

Clegg - Very impressed with him tonight. Repeated the 'two old parties' a lot, but every Lib Dem leader has been doing that for years. His communication with the audience was excellent, either looking directly at the person who asked the question in the crowd or down the camera lens at us. If he handles himself like this in the next two debates, there could be a very interesting shift in opinion in the polls, with Cleggy absolutely rinsing the other two in every debate poll at the moment.

[saint_stevo]

the fact i work within the public sector pretty much rules the tories out for me.......also, fair play to blunkett for coming on, must be harder to swat up for such a show than the others for obvious reasons

[trousers]

the fact i work within the public sector pretty much rules the tories out for me.......

 

Depends if you are 'front line' or a 'middle management pen pusher'.

 

The Tories want to ensure more funds get to the former and waste less funds on the latter.

 

If I was a front line public service worker it would (logically) be the Tories for me

[Johnny Bognor]

Clegg - Very impressed with him tonight. Repeated the 'two old parties' a lot, but every Lib Dem leader has been doing that for years. His communication with the audience was excellent, either looking directly at the person who asked the question in the crowd or down the camera lens at us. If he handles himself like this in the next two debates, there could be a very interesting shift in opinion in the polls, with Cleggy absolutely rinsing the other two in every debate poll at the moment.

 

I don't disagree with what you say here in terms of his performance, but when you promised increased spending on pretty much everything, throw in a £17bn tax cut and promise to tackle the defecit to the extent of the other two, means that anyone who buys into this is living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

His assertion that scrapping trident would save £100bn is in fact over 25 years, which equates to £4bn a year. This as a cut is less is less than the cut in NI, but is dressed up as something bigger and he wants the others to be straight with people.

[Scudamore]

Scientific poll conducted for ITV had Clegg winning by a country mile.

 

ITV: "Something like this has never been done before"

 

Yes...because it is a pretty stupid thing to do.

 

Let's conduct a poll in ten minutes...it's bound to be of substance!

[Mao Cap]

Brown did better than most floating voters were probably expecting, though the X Factor reference at the end was a true facepalm moment. Cameron did OK but continues to come across as a slick PR-man lightweight (after all, that's what he is).

 

Clegg won the night, but spent too much of his time giving grief to the other two parties, made him look small-time. And it's yet to be seen how much of an effect these debates will have on the vote.

[Saintandy666]

ITV: "Something like this has never been done before"

 

Yes...because it is a pretty stupid thing to do.

 

Let's conduct a poll in ten minutes...it's bound to be of substance!

 

It's initial reactions? What's wrong with that, I'm sure there will be over polls about it in a day or two...

[hypochondriac]

I dislike both Brown and Cameron but Brown surprised me how well he did.

[dune]

Twitter did a graph which plotted each leader based on reactions throughout the debate. As soon as Gordon Brown started talking about immigration his graph nosedived.

[dune]

I notice that Sterling has fallen against the Dollar and the Euro today because the market is getting jittery about a hung parliament again. This is based on the Liberal leader supposedly doing well. However i'm still of the belief that the Liberals will flop as per usual when it comes to real votes at the election. That said i believe that they will split the labour vote enough in some areas (Luton South, Worcester for example) which will allow the Tories to win in the Tory versus Labour marginals.

Edited 16 April, 2010 by dune

[saint lard]

Clegg had a very polished performance,he capitalised on the usual points scoring between Cameron and Brown.

 

I notice Brown pretty much made point of "i agree with Nick" constantly.

 

I will be honest i knew very little of Clegg but i was impressed.

Cameron was very dissapointing in his rebuttles,he came across as even looking awkward at times.And he failed to answer the accusations by Brown,but then he is a politician!

 

Brown was more assured than i thought he would be but came across as very agressive yet still managed to really grate on me.He just doed not connect with the public,imo.facts and figures thats about it and they appear not to be anything new.

 

Clegg answered questions, found every opportunity to round on the Tories and Labour,and show them for what they are, 'old politics'

[trousers]

Cameron was very dissapointing in his rebuttles,he came across as even looking awkward at times.And he failed to answer the accusations by Brown,but then he is a politician!

 

That's because the format wasn't condusive to a proper 'accusation vs response' debate. Each leader got approx one minute to make each point.

 

It's much quicker to express an accusation than it is to provide sn explanation to an accusation. Brown, sorry Mandleson, would have known that hence the obvious tactic from labour.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Brown/mandleson had a big say in the format of the 'debates' before agreeing to do it...

[bungle]

It wouldn't surprise me if Brown/mandleson had a big say in the format of the 'debates' before agreeing to do it...

 

All three parties had say in deciding how the debates would work. There are about 70 different rules. So I suggest you forget your pointless accusations about debate rigging.

[trousers]

 

All three parties had say in deciding how the debates would work. There are about 70 different rules. So I suggest you forget your pointless accusations about debate rigging.

 

Thanks for the offer but I'll carry on making them. Peter Mandleson has more spin than Pete Burns.

 

Lest ye forget it was Labour who put the kybosh onbthese debates last time around and were last to 'sign up' this time around.

[saint lard]

Agreed trousers,the format somewhat stunted the ability for a full rebuttle,but imo Cameron had opportunitys to deny/answer the questions/accusations Brown put to him,he constantly stalled and gave the spin and spoon fed response and did'nt come across well in doing so.

 

Brown and Clegg managed to give some answers when asked awkward or telling questions.

 

As you say, Mandelson would have briefed Brown uo to the hilt.

 

I have no axe to grind with any of them per say.

But decision time is not far away and niether are the next live debates,Cameron needs to improve somewhat,perhaps the expectations by some in thinking he would be the most impressive of the three has made him look a little 'vunerable' and open to more scrutiny in his performance.

[CB Saint]

Brown biggest handicapp (apart from his dour demenour) is that he can hardly say we need a radical shake up of welfare / education etc, because the obvious retort is"well what exactly have you been doing for 13 years. Either you haven't been doing your job at all or the things that you have been done didn't work. "

 

I thought Clegg look like a rabbit caught in the headlights in the opening remarks but improved. Cameron needs to up his game.

[trousers]

IMHO...there should have been three different format 'debates'. An orchestrated/stiffled one like last night, a 'question time' style one with more audience participation and a 3 way paxman-esque interview.

 

Why have three 'debates' exactly the same format? Unless 'someone' wouldn't have been comfortable with something less scripted...

[SO16_Saint]

Cameron needs to up his game.

 

This, above all else, I think, came through last night.

 

I'm trying to pug my personal views to one side, and Clegg did well but Cameron - must do better - C-

[trousers]

 

This, above all else, I think, came through last night.

 

I'm trying to pug my personal views to one side, and Clegg did well but Cameron - must do better - C-

A bit like Saints after 10 games this season then...? :-)

[Johnny Bognor]

One thing no-one seems to have picked up on, so maybe it's just me, is that Clegg clearly and knowingly broke one of the rule.

 

He said that he knew he was not allowed to ask the audience questions to which he then asked the question and asked the audience member to nod his head.

 

Now I know Clegg is standing on a fairness ticket, but where I come from, fairness is about not breaking the rules.

[scott_saints]

Good tactics from Clegg to come across as a people person last night. Looking at the people in the audience in the eye and writing down their names to thank them at the end etc.

 

Cameron=Lightweight.

[View From The Top]

It wouldn't surprise me if Brown/mandleson had a big say in the format of the 'debates' before agreeing to do it...

 

Could you be anymore clueless?

[OldNick]

Guardian Instant Poll suggests Clegg won, followed by Brown with Cameron on 8.8%

what a surprise Cameron did well to get 8 with those readers Lol

[OldNick]

the fact i work within the public sector pretty much rules the tories out for me.......also, fair play to blunkett for coming on, must be harder to swat up for such a show than the others for obvious reasons

So self interest rules, that is something people always point at the tories about.

Did you not hear Clegg say he was going to cut into the public sector as in wage cap, he didnt say he would stop the NI, and so that is effectively a wage cut for the public sector.

All the politicians hide the bad news. Clegg talking about being honest is a nonsense. I wish Cameron had pushed him more about the 2.5m the Liberals took from the criminal and have not paid it back, Clegg was on the run but DC pulled back.

Clegg came across well, but standing there with his hand in his pocket was disrespectful to the nation as he was supposed to be trying to convince us he was PM material. He may as well done a high five at the end.

Brown tried to be personable but you can see it is not just his way and he grates. That is why he gave Clegg such an easy ride, he knows his only way to power is by coalition and expect a lot more cosying up to Cleggy baby in the next couple of debates. DM's strategy seems to be trying to stay above the dirty politics and looking statesmanlike.

Clegg taxing the banks will not help the economy, that is our main income as a nation, without the City where are our earnings comiong from now oil and gas is fast running out?

[bungle]

what a surprise Cameron did well to get 8 with those readers Lol

 

Times poll Clegg got 61%.

[bridge too far]

what a surprise Cameron did well to get 8 with those readers Lol

 

I can't find it on the Guardian website - so I don't know what the demographic was.

 

I imagine it was an 'instant' poll after the debate. Mr TF told me about it last night - I didn't check it for myself.

 

But you're probably right. The Guardian is pushing Nick Clegg a lot.

[OldNick]

Times poll Clegg got 61%.

What did Brown get?

[Barry the Badger]

One thing no-one seems to have picked up on, so maybe it's just me, is that Clegg clearly and knowingly broke one of the rule.

 

He said that he knew he was not allowed to ask the audience questions to which he then asked the question and asked the audience member to nod his head.

 

Now I know Clegg is standing on a fairness ticket, but where I come from, fairness is about not breaking the rules.

 

I think the rule would have been there to stop them actually engaging in conversation with the audience.

 

As for Clegg, he was just checking that he had understood the point of the original question correctly, I don't think it was a problem.

[Huntingdon]

Clegg doing well is a victory for Labour not the Lib Dems

 

Nick Clegg has as much chance of being Prime Minister as Nick Griffin

 

The Lib Dems cannot win the election, but they can stop the Conservatives winning, so no wonder Brown was giving Clegg nods of agreement throughout

[OldNick]

Clegg doing well is a victory for Labour not the Lib Dems

 

Nick Clegg has as much chance of being Prime Minister as Nick Griffin

 

The Lib Dems cannot win the election, but they can stop the Conservatives winning, so no wonder Brown was giving Clegg nods of agreement throughout

Yep it is Browns only chance of getting the keys to No 10 and so he will cuddle up. Whether the penny will drop with the electorate I dont know. One thing is certain in my mind is that a hung parliament is a disaster, we are going back to the early 1970's all over again and that sent us into freefall. The nation likes to p### about with all its class nonsense, but really we need people who create wealth to be rewarded (not bankers bonusses) not to feel 2nd class citizens. If i have a choice i want the best for my children and want the whole of society to be pulled upwards. Create a successful vibrant economy and you get more tax revenue, keep punishing the richest and they just move quietly away to foreign lands. I know of a few clients who have sold up and are moving elsewhere, their wealth is moving away whch in turn weakens the nation.

[Clapham Saint]

What did Brown get?

 

http://timesonline.typepad.com/election10/2010/04/poll-so-who-won.html#tp

 

Clegg 45.9%

Cameron 32.9%

Brown 21.2%

[surrey1saint]

I thought that Clegg was impressive,the other 2 ,I've heard it all before,same old, same old.

 

The problem is that where I live is tory heartland,so a vote any other way would very likely be wasted.

It the voters that live in the marginals that will decide if we get a hung parliament or not.

[OldNick]

http://timesonline.typepad.com/election10/2010/04/poll-so-who-won.html#tp

 

Clegg 45.9%

Cameron 32.9%

Brown 21.2%

Thanks CS, So not 61% to Clegg!!! Must be a different poll.

[Thedelldays]

always a win-win situation for clegg

 

being seen on an equal footing to the other two and getting massive exposure from the norm

[OldNick]

always a win-win situation for clegg

 

being seen on an equal footing to the other two and getting massive exposure from the norm

He hasn't wheeled his wife out, Im not sure whether that is by choice but perhaps as she sounds as though she is not Britsih then he may worry that some would not be so keen on him.

Personally it doesnt matter to me, but I do wonder if that may make a difference to a small percentage if they did hear her talking, and so she is given a back seat

[bungle]

What did Brown get?

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7099182.ece

[bungle]

He hasn't wheeled his wife out, Im not sure whether that is by choice but perhaps as she sounds as though she is not Britsih then he may worry that some would not be so keen on him.

Personally it doesnt matter to me, but I do wonder if that may make a difference to a small percentage if they did hear her talking, and so she is given a back seat

 

More nickh Tory tosh.

 

Clegg's wife has a job and they have kinds together. She has chosen to continue working and being a mother to her children. I don't vote for the politicians wife, I vote on policies.

[OldNick]

More nickh Tory tosh.

 

Clegg's wife has a job and they have kinds together. She has chosen to continue working and being a mother to her children. I don't vote for the politicians wife, I vote on policies.

No different to people having a go a Sarah Brown or Camerons wife. Do you agree some voters would shy away from Clegg as his wife is foreign, (is she East European she sounded like it)

[bridge too far]

No different to people having a go a Sarah Brown or Camerons wife. Do you agree some voters would shy away from Clegg as his wife is foreign, (is she East European she sounded like it)

 

I thought she was Spanish or Latin American or South American?

 

I think she's an international lawyer so I imagine she's quite a busy woman.

[Clapham Saint]

Thanks CS, So not 61% to Clegg!!! Must be a different poll.

 

 

It hasn't been closed so may have changed...

My personal frustration is the lack of acknowledgement as too how bad the economic situation really is.

Unfortunately any party declaring "we're ****ed and need to sort it our pronto" will be accused of talking down the economy into a double dip recession, and of course nobody likes to vote for cuts if somebody else is promising that is isn't necessary.

Personally I get more and more frustrated as I come across friends who hear promises to "halve the deficit in 4 years" and assume that it means halving the debt.

It doesn't. Halving the rate at which our debt continues to increase is not solving the problem.

There is going to need to be cuts to services. Nobody wants this to be the case but the sooner we recognise that this is the case and stop praying that it will go away if we ignore it the better. Allowing the problem to mount will only make it worse.

I'm with Allister Heath (from a pre-debate article) in my frustration with all parties.

"unfortunately for Darling, is about it: contrary to what he claims and perhaps even believes, the Labour manifesto is disturbingly collectivist. All the tax hikes, including the rise in national insurance, penalise work and damage incentives; that and the rest of his parties’ policies will continue to erode Britain and London’s competitiveness, cost jobs and over time make us a substantially poorer and less dynamic nation."

"It is desperately important to cut the size of the deficit – and the Lib Dems, like the Tories and Labour, fail to explain how they will do anything more than slightly reduce its size"

 

http://www.cityam.com/news-and-analysis/allister-heath/labour-and-liberals-move-the-left

 

 

[OldNick]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7099182.ece

tHanks Bungle. Interesting how the debate has shifted the scene. My wife agreed that Clegg has come across twice this week as best, but whether he could be trusted when so little is known about him.

He is the new kid and fresh, wait until he is on the ropes and then see if his hands are still in his pocket.

He was flustered when DC pinned him about the funny money not being paid back , and he was out of his comfort zne. If another moment comes up like that then we will see. I have not seen him work well in PMQ's and so time will tell. Clegg is definately on a roll

[Clapham Saint]

I thought she was Spanish or Latin American or South American?

 

I think she's an international lawyer so I imagine she's quite a busy woman.

 

I think she's Spanish.

 

Sound's very sensible from the little I've heard from her.

[OldNick]

It hasn't been closed so may have changed...

My personal frustration is the lack of acknowledgement as too how bad the economic situation really is.

Unfortunately any party declaring "we're ****ed and need to sort it our pronto" will be accused of talking down the economy into a double dip recession, and of course nobody likes to vote for cuts if somebody else is promising that is isn't necessary.

Personally I get more and more frustrated as I come across friends who hear promises to "halve the deficit in 4 years" and assume that it means halving the debt.

It doesn't. Halving the rate at which our debt continues to increase is not solving the problem.

There is going to need to be cuts to services. Nobody wants this to be the case but the sooner we recognise that this is the case and stop praying that it will go away if we ignore it the better. Allowing the problem to mount will only make it worse.

I'm with Allister Heath (from a pre-debate article) in my frustration with all parties.

"unfortunately for Darling, is about it: contrary to what he claims and perhaps even believes, the Labour manifesto is disturbingly collectivist. All the tax hikes, including the rise in national insurance, penalise work and damage incentives; that and the rest of his parties’ policies will continue to erode Britain and London’s competitiveness, cost jobs and over time make us a substantially poorer and less dynamic nation."

"It is desperately important to cut the size of the deficit – and the Lib Dems, like the Tories and Labour, fail to explain how they will do anything more than slightly reduce its size"

 

http://www.cityam.com/news-and-analysis/allister-heath/labour-and-liberals-move-the-left

 

 

 

Yep, my clients and business friends can't understand why we are not in freefall. It is a phoney war as present and only after the election will we see where we really are, although like Pompey we know there are massive debts but not sure where they are hidden.

House prices have stayed strong (due to lack of supply) and consumers seem to be spending. It is all very complex but I still see massive problems for us around the corner