MOD to pay for soldier being late on parade

[Viking Warrior]

What is up with this mamby pamby state

 

A tribunal is considering how much the MoD must pay a female soldier after she won her case against the Army for sexual and racial discrimination.

 

Tilern DeBique, 28, was disciplined after not appearing on parade because she had to look after her daughter.

 

The corporal could be paid up to £100,000 for loss of earnings, injury to feelings and aggravated damages.

 

The MoD said personnel with children "are responsible for ensuring they have childcare arrangements in place".

 

Cpl DeBique was told the Army was "unsuitable for a single mother who couldn't sort out her childcare arrangements".

 

The judge who ruled on the MoD's appeal called it an unusual case, because Cpl DeBique was a Foreign and Commonwealth soldier serving in the British Army, as well as being a single mother.

 

Her daughter was initially cared for by her family in St Vincent. She then brought her child to England, and asked if a relative could come to the UK to help with childcare - but was told immigration rules did not allow it.

 

The corporal missed work when her child was ill, and was late for parade, resulting in disciplinary action.

 

Her commanding officer told Cpl Debique she was expected to be available for duty at any time.

 

The MoD said Cpl Debique was offered an alternative job, but left.

 

Welfare support

 

The tribunal criticised the Army for not helping to make childcare arrangements.

 

An MoD spokesman said: "The armed forces aim to achieve a working environment free from harassment, intimidation and discrimination.

 

"Serving personnel who are parents are responsible for ensuring they have childcare arrangements in place so that they can fulfil all of their Army duties.

 

"Commonwealth and Republic of Ireland citizens have access to the same levels of Army welfare support as their British counterparts."

 

BBC defence correspondent Caroline Wyatt said the military will be studying the case to see what they have to do better under the law with regard to single parents.

 

The Army will have to look very carefully at what they are asking single parents to do, she added.

 

The compensation hearing continues.

[StuRomseySaint]

Absolute f*cking b*llocks. I was charged with failing to attend parade and spent 4 days in jail because I was a few hours late... because my 1 week old son was having complications and I had stayed in Kent for the doctors appointment in the morning before heading back to Tidworth.

 

I knew I was going to get punished and took it on the chin... rules are rules.

[Wilko]

Apparently these parades are really important......

 

Army - meh

[StuRomseySaint]

Apparently these parades are really important......

 

Army - meh

 

Errrrr, well yes they are... blanket rules... it's called discipline. And 'parade' does not mean going on a march with a band... morning parade is a military term for the start of the working day.

 

And as for Army - meh... if it wasn't for the Army you would be a German you nonce. Are you now saying we don't need an armed force?

[Gingeletiss]

Apparently these parades are really important......

 

Army - meh

 

So speaks someone who hasn't got a clue. It's as Stu says, a matter of discipline, the something that makes us the best fighting force in the world. She like many others from 'overseas' see fit to milk this country for all it's worth. Note, before you pillarise me for that statement, reflect on it, I say the same for all those native born who do the same (see thread on benifits).

[Wilko]

Errrrr, well yes they are... blanket rules... it's called discipline. And 'parade' does not mean going on a march with a band... morning parade is a military term for the start of the working day.

 

And as for Army - meh... if it wasn't for the Army you would be a German you nonce. Are you now saying we don't need an armed force?

 

Stu,

 

Thanks for your swift response, which cleared up some of my misconceptions about 'parade'. It is clear that missing parade, and therefore being late for work, warrants a punishment of four days in jail. I only wish this was the case universally.

 

I have no sympathy for this lady and agree with the statement that the army is 'unsuitable for a single mother who couldn't sort out her childcare arrangements'.

 

Wilko

[StuRomseySaint]

Stu,

 

Thanks for your swift response, which cleared up some of my misconceptions about 'parade'. It is clear that missing parade, and therefore being late for work, warrants a punishment of four days in jail. I only wish this was the case universally.

 

I have no sympathy for this lady and agree with the statement that the army is 'unsuitable for a single mother who couldn't sort out her childcare arrangements'.

 

Wilko

 

Yep, Military Law runs seperate to Civilian Law... and so it should, to be the best force in the world, you need discipline. Some of the things either myself or people I have worked with have been charged with include...

 

- Failing to attend a parade ( being 2 hours late ) - 4 days jail.

- Having a bit of hair ( stubble ) in my razor on a room inspection ( 7 days restriction of privelidges - ie: confined to barracks and evening and weeked duties )

- Leaving locker unlocked - 1 day jail and a fine.

- Refusing to soldier ( one lad saying he was too ill to work ) - Jailed for 10 days in custody, stripped of uniform, sentenced to 60 days in prison by the Commanding Officer.

 

 

There's a few examples... you don't hear people that are in the Army moaning about it, only the people out the Army and foreign nationals that see our forces as a way of bypassing immigration.

[scott_saints]

Why anyone wants to be in the army is beyond me. Still, atleast it means I don't have to be.

[.comsaint]

lol. Only in Britain.

 

" Yoohoo - Mr Taliban. Can you hold fire for 20 minutes as I've got to go and breast-feed my baby. Can we resume in say...20 minutes?"...

[Whitey Grandad]

You really couldn't make it up. I hope to God that we don't rely on this sort of person if there ever is an emergency.

[Justin C]

Yep, Military Law runs seperate to Civilian Law... and so it should, to be the best force in the world, you need discipline. Some of the things either myself or people I have worked with have been charged with include...

 

- Failing to attend a parade ( being 2 hours late ) - 4 days jail.

- Having a bit of hair ( stubble ) in my razor on a room inspection ( 7 days restriction of privelidges - ie: confined to barracks and evening and weeked duties )

- Leaving locker unlocked - 1 day jail and a fine.

- Refusing to soldier ( one lad saying he was too ill to work ) - Jailed for 10 days in custody, stripped of uniform, sentenced to 60 days in prison by the Commanding Officer.

 

 

There's a few examples... you don't hear people that are in the Army moaning about it, only the people out the Army and foreign nationals that see our forces as a way of bypassing immigration.

 

I agree Military Law is needed. It's not quite as harsh as that most of the time these days.

[StuRomseySaint]

I agree Military Law is needed. It's not quite as harsh as that most of the time these days.

 

It's b*llocks these days... NCO's are scared to give recruits a slap incase they are put up as 'bullies' ... I was a c*cky little sh!t when I was in phase one training ( I know, you don't believe me ) and took a kicking regulary. One of those things, never once moaned about it at the time and don't look back now and think it was out of order.

 

That's how it should be, bayonet training day on Infantry training, woke up at 3 am and told to parade outside on a raining February morning... washed down with a fire hose and f*cked about and 'bullied' ( as the press put it ) all day... funny as f*ck day... but has been subject of an enquiry because some nobheads can't take the punishment and want a route out of the army.

[Justin C]

It's b*llocks these days... NCO's are scared to give recruits a slap incase they are put up as 'bullies' ... I was a c*cky little sh!t when I was in phase one training ( I know, you don't believe me ) and took a kicking regulary. One of those things, never once moaned about it at the time and don't look back now and think it was out of order.

 

That's how it should be, bayonet training day on Infantry training, woke up at 3 am and told to parade outside on a raining February morning... washed down with a fire hose and f*cked about and 'bullied' ( as the press put it ) all day... funny as f*ck day... but has been subject of an enquiry because some nobheads can't take the punishment and want a route out of the army.

 

Dont fully agree its the best way but it infantry training should have a toughness about it. It is a bit more pink and fluffy now. You cant even shout at these days.

[Viking Warrior]

Stu your still a c*cky little sh!t

 

but everything else you say I toltally agree with

[StuRomseySaint]

Dont fully agree its the best way but it infantry training should have a toughness about it. It is a bit more pink and fluffy now. You cant even shout at these days.

 

There has been some stupid new initiative where if an NCO shouts at a recruit he can be shown a Yellow card and the NCO has to not talk to him for the rest of the day and a Red card means he gets reported or some crap like that.

 

What a load of sh!te.

[Viking Warrior]

Im not sure if it has been banned but a couple of years ago recruits were issued with yellow and green cards to hold up at the end of a training session

whether it was drill , weapond training etc. if the recruit didnt like the way the instructor (NCO) had taught the recruits they could hold up a yellow card. If the instructor/NCO got to many yellow cards then they were out on their ear. So yes the forces have become too pink and fluffy but the airforce are worse and have become ultra ghey

[Viking Warrior]

Stu you beat me to it about the cards . its absolutely true

[NickG]

Errrrr, well yes they are... blanket rules... it's called discipline. And 'parade' does not mean going on a march with a band... morning parade is a military term for the start of the working day.

 

And as for Army - meh... if it wasn't for the Army you would be a German you nonce. Are you now saying we don't need an armed force?

 

we would have had great world cup teams!

[StuRomseySaint]

Stu you beat me to it about the cards . its absolutely true

 

That is a load of b*llocks.

 

Bloody hell the papers would have a field day if they knew some of the things that happened when I was in.

 

Space Invaders - On Lydd and Hythe Ranges, which are covered in stones, get the new recruit to stand about 15 metres away with his combat gear on, including helmet ( health and safety first ) , doing Space Invader motion up and down in a line, whilst the rest of the platoon throw stones at him.

 

Run the Gauntlet - For more minor offences like falling asleep in lessons, platoon formed up either side of a corridor... the accused is made to run up the corridor as the platoon kick the fook out of him on the way through.

 

Flamin arseholes - 2 new recruits, made to hang the same length of bog rolls from their arse, stand on a chair and the bog roll is lit, first person off their chair is given a kicking.

 

Kangaroo Court - Punishment could be any of the above, including kidney punches slaps and rats tails lashings.

 

There is just a few examples.

[Thedelldays]

I love it when people mock the armed forces..yet have no idea of the whens and whys of it

[Thedelldays]

There has been some stupid new initiative where if an NCO shouts at a recruit he can be shown a Yellow card and the NCO has to not talk to him for the rest of the day and a Red card means he gets reported or some crap like that.

 

What a load of sh!te.

this was in force at HMS Raleigh a few years back (I kid you not)..until the base commander was changed and the new one apparently nearly had a heart attack when he found out it was happening in his base.

 

 

 

I was on a course their circa 2007 and had to re brief some trainees...in the lines of "get your fuking hands out of your pockets or I will sew them to your face"...for one of them to approach me to tell me I could not speak to him like that..

WTF...!!!!!!!

 

this policy soon stopped and came to an end and now is back to the usual bollockings

 

however..I am led to believe that RAF bases encourage "daisy chaining"

Edited 13 April, 2010 by Thedelldays

[benjii]

That is a load of b*llocks.

 

Bloody hell the papers would have a field day if they knew some of the things that happened when I was in.

 

Space Invaders - On Lydd and Hythe Ranges, which are covered in stones, get the new recruit to stand about 15 metres away with his combat gear on, including helmet ( health and safety first ) , doing Space Invader motion up and down in a line, whilst the rest of the platoon throw stones at him.

 

Run the Gauntlet - For more minor offences like falling asleep in lessons, platoon formed up either side of a corridor... the accused is made to run up the corridor as the platoon kick the fook out of him on the way through.

 

Flamin arseholes - 2 new recruits, made to hang the same length of bog rolls from their arse, stand on a chair and the bog roll is lit, first person off their chair is given a kicking.

 

Kangaroo Court - Punishment could be any of the above, including kidney punches slaps and rats tails lashings.

 

There is just a few examples.

 

We do that on hockey tour. Not even for offences - just for fun.

 

The "Flamin a" is a drinking game - you can pull the roll out once you've finished your pint.

[StuRomseySaint]

We do that on hockey tour. Not even for offences - just for fun.

 

Yep, it is indeed a fun game, we also used to do it for Birthdays, but mainly for minor offences like falling asleep in lessons or saying the word 'contact' on the radio on operations.

[Micky]

I still work with the Forces, but I think that the card system has now been dropped.

 

There is little doubt though that so have discipline levels as well. As Stu says, in the old days, discipline could well have included a (well deserved, if the truth be known) bit of a kickin' - but it was in the name of discipline. After some 25 years of actually being in the Armed Forces I can look back and recall all of my 'punishments' and with my hand on my heart say that, yes I deserved them, and yes I actually learned from them.

 

The Forces work in an environent where you need things to happen, and you need them to happen now - not when you feel like it, not when the big picture has been explained to you, and certainly not when the baby has been fed and watered - it has to happen now. Hence their methods and training. The Army (and I suspect the Navy and Air Force) is suffering as a result of HR Laws these days. We need to instil discipline and the ethos to act and not question; and this is best done using 'old school' methods.

 

Trying to train soldiers with one hand tied behind your back by petty beaurocracy is stupid and downright dangerous. Bullying no - good training techniques, yes - they'll save your life.

[Justin C]

this was in force at HMS Raleigh a few years back (I kid you not)..until the base commander was changed and the new one apparently nearly had a heart attack when he found out it was happening in his base.

 

 

 

I was on a course their circa 2007 and had to re brief some trainees...in the lines of "get your fuking hands out of your pockets or I will sew them to your face"...for one of them to approach me to tell me I could not speak to him like that..

WTF...!!!!!!!

 

this policy soon stopped and came to an end and now is back to the usual bollockings

 

however..I am led to believe that RAF bases encourage "daisy chaining"

 

It is very pink and fluffy now days. But I do belive not everyone responds to shouting and a kicking and in fact that may make some people rebel even more. A good instructor will work out how to get the best from there recruits. Almost like a footy manager some players need a kicking some need an arm around them. On the whole it has gone too far the other way now and somewhere in the middle is prob the best way to treat them.

[for_heaven's_Saint]

She must've known the rules- if she chooses to be in the army then she has to adhere to these rules and therefore the consequences of breaking them.

[Viking Warrior]

Not to forget the Regimental bath Stu

 

When I was in the regulars. As medics we had to practice cutting each other open and the suturing it back up. Then there was the practic eof venepuncture and cut downs on each other. painful but when it came to do it on real casualties we got it spot on each time.

 

I like the navy medics concept of sutruing. Anymore than two sutures you got lignocaine , any thing less and they would just suture you up.

 

 

Back in 2004 I attended the Joint Equality and Diversity adviser training course at Shrivenham. I was in a syndicate with navy POs and officers. You should have heard the blue jobs views on equality and divesity Toatl ultra liberal and ghey . So making daisy chains is probably true

Edited 13 April, 2010 by Viking Warrior

[View From The Top]

She must've known the rules- if she chooses to be in the army then she has to adhere to these rules and therefore the consequences of breaking them.

 

It's the changing of those rules that appear to be the issue.

[StuRomseySaint]

It is very pink and fluffy now days. But I do belive not everyone responds to shouting and a kicking and in fact that may make some people rebel even more. A good instructor will work out how to get the best from there recruits. Almost like a footy manager some players need a kicking some need an arm around them. On the whole it has gone too far the other way now and somewhere in the middle is prob the best way to treat them.

 

People may not respond to a shouting and a kicking... there is no time in the army to put your arms around someone and give them a cuddle.

 

If they cannot handle the odd slap in the Army, how are they going to handle being captured by the enemy and interrogated... I very much doubt the Taliban are going to ask if they are ok and say " if you think we are being nasty please let us know and we will stop "

 

All recruits should be kicked about a bit... the idea of Phase 1 training is to mentally break someone and build them back up into a soldier... you can't do this by worrying about what the PC brigade think about it.

[Justin C]

People may not respond to a shouting and a kicking... there is no time in the army to put your arms around someone and give them a cuddle.

 

If they cannot handle the odd slap in the Army, how are they going to handle being captured by the enemy and interrogated... I very much doubt the Taliban are going to ask if they are ok and say " if you think we are being nasty please let us know and we will stop "

 

All recruits should be kicked about a bit... the idea of Phase 1 training is to mentally break someone and build them back up into a soldier... you can't do this by worrying about what the PC brigade think about it.

 

 

I agree for the infantry they to know what its like.

[Toomer]

I had a mate in the Armed Forces he did about 5 or 6 tours of Ireland, when he got posted to the Falklands he said I have taken the Queens shilling and I go where I am sent at least I will know who I'm up against down there.

[Thedelldays]

I agree for the infantry they to know what its like.

not for anyone else..?

[StuRomseySaint]

I had a mate in the Armed Forces he did about 5 or 6 tours of Ireland, when he got posted to the Falklands he said I have taken the Queens shilling and I go where I am sent at least I will know who I'm up against down there.

 

Exactly... and his reward if he refused the posting?

 

Being charged with refusing to soldier, stripped of his uniform and chucked in a cell with one damp blanket for warmth until he comes to his senses.

 

You can't try and beat the Military system... stick that dosey foreign bint in prison I say.

[Thedelldays]

one thing stu

 

not many people (if at all) return to colchester

maybe the outside world should follow their example

[Viking Warrior]

Toomer never a truer word , At least in the falklands you new who the enemy was. I did three tours in NI . I hated takeing casuatlies to the Altnegalvin hospital in derry and the one in belfast. Whilst I was a medic you would still be spat upon by some nursing staff even though we were there to save lifes together.

Yrs the medical staff in the hospitals may have had republican leanings but they should have left them at home and not taken to the work place.

A small minority seemed to forget about the ethos of the geneva convention.

[StuRomseySaint]

one thing stu

 

not many people (if at all) return to colchester

maybe the outside world should follow their example

 

Not only that, they come out of MCTC a better soldier and many go on to have good careers in the army. Most recruits who return to soldier are promoted within a year of release.

[Micky]

Not only that, they come out of MCTC a better soldier and many go on to have good careers in the army. Most recruits who return to soldier are promoted within a year of release.

 

Exactly, which brings you right back to the beginning again - military discipline. It works.

[View From The Top]

28 days DQ's. :smt039

[SOTONS EAST SIDE]

My sons basic training at HMS Raliegh still has instructors shouting and screaming at them, he said it was hard to take at first but after 2 weeks he was enjoying it so much, that he knew if he was disaplined or shouted at. it was for his own good, and he's a better person for it now.

If you cant hack it, dont complain. Just f-uck off! EASY

[knellster]

I have to confess that I don't know all the facts and I have never been in the services, but the thing that confuses me is that her claim was for sexual and racial discrimination. Surely to have won such a case she must have been able to prove that the army would have accepted a white person or a man being late on parade to look after a child. From the little I know and from what I have read here that is clearly b0ll0cks, so how did she win?

[StuRomseySaint]

I have to confess that I don't know all the facts and I have never been in the services, but the thing that confuses me is that her claim was for sexual and racial discrimination. Surely to have won such a case she must have been able to prove that the army would have accepted a white person or a man being late on parade to look after a child. From the little I know and from what I have read here that is clearly b0ll0cks, so how did she win?

 

Because she is black and foreign and a *****ing woman.

Edited 13 April, 2010 by StuRomseySaint

[Gingeletiss]

I have to confess that I don't know all the facts and I have never been in the services, but the thing that confuses me is that her claim was for sexual and racial discrimination. Surely to have won such a case she must have been able to prove that the army would have accepted a white person or a man being late on parade to look after a child. From the little I know and from what I have read here that is clearly b0ll0cks, so how did she win?

 

Easy, the clues are all here! Look at the OP, it answers your question.

[Viking Warrior]

You can find an ambulance chasing lawyer anywhere these days who will spin the true facts odf the case in favour of tjhe appellant. Employment tribunals generally consist of lay members and once the race card or gender discrimination card is played they tend to shy away from the real facts of the case.

 

take the cases of teachers who have been sacked due to having sex with a pupil (underage). The lawyer representing them claims that the education authority concerned should have allowed them to be represented by a lawyer at the disciplinary as they were about to lose their livelihood. guess what the Employment tribunal agreed with the appellant. The mere fact the teacher had sex with an under age pupil does not come into the equation.

 

So Im not suprised that the ET have said this female soldier sufffered race and sex discrimination for being late on parade.

 

Sometimes the law is an ass

[Secret Site Agent]

Ahhh, the Army act 1955, what a throw back to the 'good old days'. Always remember the poor bastard sapper reported to me for being in debt 'in contravention of the Army act.' Went before the big chair and got fined 28 days pay, and I got a bollocking for alllowing him to get that way. His missus left him and he had no family to look after his kids, so he was having to pay a child minder.

Most offences though are there for maintaining descipline, as without it in combat it leads to people dying. An order given HAS to be followed. Weapons must be cleaned regularly, kit maintained, feet inspected, it goes on, and has to be done. 'Thems the rules, boy, and if'n you don't follow em,you might as well sew you'm into yon maggot an' wait for the ost ta' take yo'm 'ome' as my old OC, Major 'Tash used to say.

The day we lost Crown Immunity was the day the flood gates opened to the PC brigade. Soon it'll be against your 'Uman Rights' to be forced to go to a combat zone.

[ericofarabia]

.

The day we lost Crown Immunity was the day the flood gates opened to the PC brigade. Soon it'll be against your 'Uman Rights' to be forced to go to a combat zone.

'

Okay okay ... I'll be at the front line in 5 mins .. just watching the end of The X factor.:cool:

 

If you think I'm going out to battle in such a drab colour you must be out of your tiny mind ... khaki is so last year

 

I'm not flying that Nimrod for 20 hours unless you credit my airmiles account

 

I didn't sign up for this sh!t .... DOH . No probs I'll pull the racial/sexist/homophobic card and get a lawyer to sort it out. Kerching.

[Micky]

It's interesting to think what would have happened had she worked for a small civilian company and done the same thing. What, for instance, if she was a technician on call for a civilian company, got called out, but failed to attend because of her child.

 

She could have been dismissed and then taken them to court in exactly the same circumstances. Would her potential payout be in the 100k region as it could be with MOD - or are smart arse lawyers just milking what is, essentially the biggest firm in the UK.

 

This whole case stinks of the PC brigade citing stupid E Op rules and getting away with blue murder while common sence, once again, flys out of the window. Total and utter bollux.

[Durleyfos]

The racial discrimination is because she's from overseas (Caribean somewhere, I think) and wasn't allowed to bring a relative over with her to look after the sprog.

 

Sexual disrcrimination is because male soldiers are not expected to look after sprogs (or something like that)

 

According to the ITV news last night.

 

Still a load of bullship if you as me.

[Thedelldays]

I know it is the mail...but ffs

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1266069/Now-single-mother-sort-childcare-demands-1-1m--seven-times-Army-offered-hero-lost-legs.html

[SNSUN]

Kudos to anyone in the military. I couldn't do it. I was born lazy, I'll die lazy, and, for whatever reason, we all get called up to fight a war, I'd be dead within a day.

 

That said, you shouldn't pick a job if you can't do it. When I started working for LUL, we were told that shiftwork would effective ruin our social lives. They weren't wrong. We also get people complaining that they should work Sundays because of religion but, again, they were told when they took the job that we have to work Sundays. Harsh but true.

[Whitey Grandad]

We once supplied a training simulator to the Danish Army. On their firing ranges they are not allowed to shoot at anything which is shaped like a human being so they shoot at red triangles. The officer involved said that so long as the Russians invaded wearing red triangles all would be ok.