Paying Off Gordons Giant Credit Card

[dune]

The key choice at the election is between starting to tackle Britains mountain of debt straight away, or the mañana approach of the Socialists.

 

You only have to look at Greece to see where Britain could well end up if Labour get in again.

 

We're in a groundhog day situation - it's 1979 all over again. The Tories mended the sick man of Europe then and they can do it again. I'm no fan of George Osborne, but Ken Clarke is on the front bench and he will be a strong influence on economic matters.

 

The choice is stark, vote Labour and risk us going the way of Greece or vote Tory and resusitate the sick man of Europe.

[View From The Top]

I trust this bunch of tories to do the right thing even less than I do the current government and that's saying something!

 

This isn't '79 and Mr "One is an ordinary chap" is deffo no Thatcher.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwzeRoFKTfg

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

[Johnny Bognor]

What makes me laugh is how both Labour and Tories are talking about halving the deficit like it is a good thing.

 

Say I owe £10,000 on my credit card and I am promising to half my monthly defecit from £500 per month to £250 per month.

 

Great, I have halved my defecit, but the fact remainns that my debt is still increasing by £250 per month and I have made no attempt to clear down my £10k debt.

 

£900,000,000,000 will take a long time to pay off. Say that we have a surplus (yeah right) of £50,000,000,000 per annum. It would take 18 years (nigh on a generation) to pay back the National Debt. That is assuming we find £42,000,000,000 to cover the interest payments.

 

This equates to the the entire education budget for more than 20 years. I fear my kids may look on Fraudon, as many on here look at Thatcher, as a complete and utter moron. Yes, Gordon is a moron (I know a song about that)

[TopGun]

The key choice at the election is between starting to tackle Britains mountain of debt straight away, or the mañana approach of the Socialists.

 

You only have to look at Greece to see where Britain could well end up if Labour get in again.

 

We're in a groundhog day situation - it's 1979 all over again. The Tories mended the sick man of Europe then and they can do it again. I'm no fan of George Osborne, but Ken Clarke is on the front bench and he will be a strong influence on economic matters.

 

The choice is stark, vote Labour and risk us going the way of Greece or vote Tory and resusitate the sick man of Europe.

 

Remember, Dune believes the BNP is the genuine way forward folks!

[dune]

The level of debt the Socialists have built up is truely frightening. If i'd been chancelleor dring the past 13 years i'd have run a budget surplus while the sun was shining, yet Brown continued to spend spend spend and racked up the debt even then. It's a scandal the mess this country finds itself in.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I suspect that the Tory's are planning massive cuts and savings, at least I hope they are, but dont want to frighten the natives at this moment. Mrs Thatcher's '79 manifesto was short on detail and certainly didn't tell of the radical ideas to come.

 

Personally, the sooner the debt is paid off the better. Why should my children and their children pay for our/Brown's binge.

 

I'd start with public sector and their pensions in particular (this despite my Wife being a NHS midwife). Lets close the Final Salary scheme to new members, make them work until they're 65 like the rest of us. No child benefit or WFTC for higher rate tax payers. Let's cut the overseas aid budget in half, and let's get rid of all the "non jobs" that are advertised in the Guardian. Let's stop bribing the unions with millions for their "modernising", and let's cut parliament by 20%. Cut the Scottish and Welsh budgets, if they can afford to give free health care/priscriptions and university fees the Barnett formula is not working.

[bungle]

The key choice at the election is between starting to tackle Britains mountain of debt straight away, or the mañana approach of the Socialists

 

This certainly isn't the key debate, it is a debate we shouldn't have to have. Labour are right, you can't cut your way out recession. However, in my opinion, they haven't invested in the right areas and the VAT cut didn't achieve much.

 

Instead we should have spent money insulating public buildings (creating private sector jobs now and saving public purse money in long run), improving our public transport by electrifying more lines and investing in renewable energy.

[dune]

Lets close the Final Salary scheme to new members, make them work until they're 65 like the rest of us. I'm in two minds over this - i have a final salary pension scheme and am glad i do. No child benefit or WFTC for higher rate tax payers. That's sensible. Let's cut the overseas aid budget in half - i would go further and cancel overseas aid altogether, and let's get rid of all the "non jobs" that are advertised in the Guardian. There's certainly far too many penpushers. Let's stop bribing the unions with millions for their "modernising" - to be fair i think it's just a fiddle with unions like Unite giving it back to Labour, and let's cut parliament by 20%. Disagree, parliament cost a miniscule amount in te scheme of things. Cut the Scottish and Welsh budgets, if they can afford to give free health care/priscriptions and university fees the Barnett formula is not working. Agree - and if they complain poll English voters on whether we throw them out of the Union

[bridge too far]

Please may I try (again) to clear up one myth regarding Final Salary pension schemes.

 

I can only talk about the public sector because that's all I know about. If you are a member of the NHS pension scheme you CANNOT draw your pension until you reach pensionable age (currently 60 for females and 65 for males). If you 'retire' earlier, you have to wait until you reach that pensionable age but your pension will be calculated on years of service and salary at the time you 'retired' and frozen at that point in time.

 

The exception to this is the age at which nurses can retire and get their pensions immediately. This is, I think, 55 and recognises that many nurses suffer from back problems as they get older. I think GPs can retire earlier too.

 

Coincidentally NHS pensions have changed for new entrants and are based average pay than final pay plus, of course, length of service.

 

If you are an NHS worker about to retire now with a final salary of £20K and 20 years service, your pension will be about £5K a year. Sadly, many NHS workers earn less than £20K, and can't afford to join the pension scheme anyway (because it's contributory at a rate of, I think, 6% of salary).

 

I don't know anything about private sector pension schemes at all - final salary contributory ones that is. Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Remember, Dune believes the BNP is the genuine way forward folks!

 

He also believes we have a socialist government? :-)

[Thedelldays]

who ever wins will be very unpopular in 12 months time..the cuts needed are massive..and it will effect everyone..

 

the benefits systems needs a good looking at..far too many free rides on that alone..

[saintfully]

who ever wins will be very unpopular in 12 months time..the cuts needed are massive..and it will effect everyone..

 

the benefits systems needs a good looking at..far too many free rides on that alone..

 

Absolutely agree that in 12 months the country will be up sh.it creek and that most people don't have a clue how bad its gonna be.

 

Don't agree that benefits system is the best place to start cutting - I'd prefer tax dodging/avoidance. Easier to do, less socially destructive and would raise more cash. Tories and Labour chose not to this because of the effect it would have on Establishment wealth.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

 

I don't know anything about private sector pension schemes at all - final salary contributory ones that is. Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

 

There are hardly any left that are open for new members. My Company closed it years ago and there's now talk of freezing your final salary benefits and putting us on a money purchase one now. Basically, giving you 1/60th of this years salary X the numbers of years worked, freeze this, and from this year onwards, put us into a defined benefits one.I understand that many Companies have done this, or are looking at this as an option.We have also had our contributation increased from 6% to 8% to receive the same benefits.

There is no doubt that our fantastic private pension provisions that were the best in the world, have been ruined under this Govt's watch.

My wife is a midwife and her pension is pretty much the same as mine, the difference however is that hers is still open for new members, as it is funded by the Taxpayer. With 85% of private Companies now no longer offering a final salary scheme I dont think it's right that 100% of employers in the public sector have the chance to join one. Historically, the pension provision has balanced out the low wages, but this is no longer the case. The public sector average pay is higher than the private. My wife has had decent pay rises, whilst I've had a pay freeze for 2 years.

[bridge too far]

Lord Duckhunter - may I correct you on two counts.

 

Firstly, your wife will contribute to her pension if she's a midwife employed by the NHS.

 

New NHS employees no longer have the option of a FINAL salary scheme.

 

Your wife might care to revisit this:

 

http://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/Pensions/Documents/Pensions/SD_Guide_online_(V4)_12.2009.pdf

 

It sets out quite clearly what NHS pensioners can look forward to and what they pay for it.

[dune]

I don't know anything about private sector pension schemes at all - final salary contributory ones that is. Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

 

My company still has a final salary pension scheme open to everyone, but they've had to inject a £100m lump sum into it to keep it going - they don't come cheap! At present you can retire early, but that' option is going and from 2012 the minimum retirement age will be 55. The final salary is worked out at the best two years out of the last 10. It's a good deal but I also pay an extra £200 per month into the company run AVC scheme which is a very smart way to go because you don't get taxed on contributions and you can take up to 25% of your life allowance tax free on retirement as a lump sum. I've spoke to my pensions adviser and will continue with the AVC until it surpases the 25%. My comapny has also recently adopted pen smart whereby your pension contributions are deducted from your gross salary so you pay less NI.

Edited 10 April, 2010 by dune

[dune]

If I was chancellor i'd be bold and put VAT up to 25% for next 5 years which would bring in an extra £500 billion.

[bridge too far]

If I was chancellor i'd be bold and put VAT up to 25% for next 5 years which would bring in an extra £500 billion.

 

That chap from Dragons Den (Duncan Bannantyne?) said putting up VAT would cost far more in terms of jobs lost. Both he and James Caan (sp?), another 'Dragon' said the NI hike wouldn't stop them employing people.

 

Jobs lost = less tax take and more benefit payouts.

 

So I doubt it would bring in £500m in real terms.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Lord Duckhunter - may I correct you on two counts.

 

Firstly, your wife will contribute to her pension if she's a midwife employed by the NHS.

 

New NHS employees no longer have the option of a FINAL salary scheme.

 

Your wife might care to revisit this:

 

http://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/Pensions/Documents/Pensions/SD_Guide_online_(V4)_12.2009.pdf

 

It sets out quite clearly what NHS pensioners can look forward to and what they pay for it.

 

I never once said that she didn't contribute to it. I said her pension is pretty much the same as mine. If she joined the NHS now, she would have a far better pension than if I joined my private companies one now. Luckily, we have both been in them for years, however as I said my Company is considering freezing it and transfering all members to a Money Purchase scheme. I understand that a lot of private Companies have or are considering doing this. I doubt for one minute that this will ever happen to Public sector workers.

 

I note you didn't comment on the generous pay rises she's had, as opposed to my pay freezes.

 

My wife is like a lot of Public sector workers in that she geniunely loves her job, and would proberly do it for free, however she is well rewarded, well provided for in regard of a pension, gets a pay increase every year and has a lot of job security.

[bridge too far]

I never once said that she didn't contribute to it. I said her pension is pretty much the same as mine. If she joined the NHS now, she would have a far better pension than if I joined my private companies one now. Luckily, we have both been in them for years, however as I said my Company is considering freezing it and transfering all members to a Money Purchase scheme. I understand that a lot of private Companies have or are considering doing this. I doubt for one minute that this will ever happen to Public sector workers.

 

I note you didn't comment on the generous pay rises she's had, as opposed to my pay freezes.

 

My wife is like a lot of Public sector workers in that she geniunely loves her job, and would proberly do it for free, however she is well rewarded, well provided for in regard of a pension, gets a pay increase every year and has a lot of job security.

 

Looks like she won't get 'generous' rises in future:

 

http://www.nursingtimes.net/whats-new-in-nursing/news-topics/nurse-pay/nurse-pay-rises-to-drop-below-1-warns-nhs-chief/5010705.article

 

I didn't think midwives were that well paid in comparison to other graduates. Of course I don't know what level your wife is at - maybe she's a manager?

 

I do know that my daughter, who is an IT Project Manager for an NGO (not the best payers in the world) has decided that, much as she'd love to, she just can't afford to re-train as a midwife because the salary she could expect would be so low - about £21K I think. Checking on the pay scales, I see that even a midwife manager only starts at £30K.

 

If that's true, I certainly don't begrudge your wife her pay rise

[Lord Duckhunter]

Looks like she won't get 'generous' rises in future:

 

http://www.nursingtimes.net/whats-new-in-nursing/news-topics/nurse-pay/nurse-pay-rises-to-drop-below-1-warns-nhs-chief/5010705.article

 

I didn't think midwives were that well paid in comparison to other graduates. Of course I don't know what level your wife is at - maybe she's a manager?

 

I do know that my daughter, who is an IT Project Manager for an NGO (not the best payers in the world) has decided that, much as she'd love to, she just can't afford to re-train as a midwife because the salary she could expect would be so low - about £21K I think. Checking on the pay scales, I see that even a midwife manager only starts at £30K.

 

If that's true, I certainly don't begrudge your wife her pay rise

 

It's not really about the money for her. We struggled for 3 years on a bursary, with only my wage coming in, to enable her to qualify. I know how much dedication she's put in, and do think she's under paid. However, I still think there are savings to be made in the public sector, and I think that the pensions are very generous when compared to the Private sector.

 

Anyway, off to the game now.

[JackFrost]

The level of debt the Socialists have built up is truely frightening. If i'd been chancelleor dring the past 13 years i'd have run a budget surplus while the sun was shining, yet Brown continued to spend spend spend and racked up the debt even then. It's a scandal the mess this country finds itself in.

 

LOL at the people who think New Labour & the Tories are any different from each other.

 

Brown scrapping the 10p tax band was one of the most right-wing-Conservative, Thatcherite decisions since the time of Thatcher. With "Socialism" like that who needs neo-Conservatism LOL

[Wade Garrett]

Dune, the reason we are in sh*t street, is because the Tory boys in the City and Wall Street are a load of chancing greedy bastards who have had to be bailed out by the taxpayers.

 

Cameron gets in and I lose my child benefit, and will have to pay the extra 1% NI as I earn over £35k. Thanks for nothing. I suppose if my family had an estate worth millions I would be OK.

 

So much for looking after the 'silent majority'.

[Thedelldays]

Dune, the reason we are in sh*t street, is because the Tory boys in the City and Wall Street are a load of chancing greedy bastards who have had to be bailed out by the taxpayers.

 

Cameron gets in and I lose my child benefit, and will have to pay the extra 1% NI as I earn over £35k. Thanks for nothing. I suppose if my family had an estate worth millions I would be OK.

 

So much for looking after the 'silent majority'.

this (and many shed loads of cut like it) are going to happen regardless of who gets in.

 

why else do you think NONE of the parties are really going into detail about how the cuts will be made..

 

about 25% is going to be cut in spending...so benefits, military, pensions, education etc...will ALL be hit one way or another

[badgerx16]

this (and many shed loads of cut like it) are going to happen regardless of who gets in.

 

why else do you think NONE of the parties are really going into detail about how the cuts will be made..

 

about 25% is going to be cut in spending...so benefits, military, pensions, education etc...will ALL be hit one way or another

 

True ! :mad:

[Winnersaint]

I'm no expert on the NHS, but my wife works in a fairly senior non-clinical management position in a Foundation Trust hospital. her background until a few years ago was in financial services, so she has seen both the public and private sectors in action. Within the area she works in she frequently questions the work ethic, lack of customer focus and the bureaucracy which stands in the way of change, reflecting that practices simply would not pass muster in the more streamlined and competitive world of the private sector. That is only the start of it. Most of the hospitals and PCTs that a majority of SWF posters would use in Hampshire, IoW, Berkshire and Oxfordshire are part of South Central Regional Health Authority and she cannot for the life of her see the rationale for its existence especially in the light of Foundation trust status of the RBH and Basingstoke and North Hampshire Hospital. South Central is a typical level of bearacracy that could be stripped out of the NHS saving millions.

[solentstars]

Dune, the reason we are in sh*t street, is because the Tory boys in the City and Wall Street are a load of chancing greedy bastards who have had to be bailed out by the taxpayers.

 

Cameron gets in and I lose my child benefit, and will have to pay the extra 1% NI as I earn over £35k. Thanks for nothing. I suppose if my family had an estate worth millions I would be OK.

 

So much for looking after the 'silent majority'.

 

i blamei brown for bailing out the tory boys in wall street and the city ,for getting us all in this massive debt, but at least he and governments around the world realized doing nothing would have brought us another great depression with mass unemployment.

do you think any government would allowed banks to go the wall ?

[dune]

i blamei brown for bailing out the tory boys in wall street and the city ,for getting us all in this massive debt, but at least he and governments around the world realized doing nothing would have brought us another great depression with mass unemployment.

do you think any government would allowed banks to go the wall ?

 

You talk as if we're out of the woods when the reality is that Gordons debt mountain could well see us go down the same road as Greece, and we don't yet know where that road will end for them.

[View From The Top]

I'm no expert on the NHS, but my wife works in a fairly senior non-clinical management position in a Foundation Trust hospital. her background until a few years ago was in financial services, so she has seen both the public and private sectors in action. Within the area she works in she frequently questions the work ethic, lack of customer focus and the bureaucracy which stands in the way of change, reflecting that practices simply would not pass muster in the more streamlined and competitive world of the private sector. That is only the start of it. Most of the hospitals and PCTs that a majority of SWF posters would use in Hampshire, IoW, Berkshire and Oxfordshire are part of South Central Regional Health Authority and she cannot for the life of her see the rationale for its existence especially in the light of Foundation trust status of the RBH and Basingstoke and North Hampshire Hospital. South Central is a typical level of bearacracy that could be stripped out of the NHS saving millions.

 

I moved back into the public sector(ish) and I've already told the boss we waste way to much money, are to bureaucratic and have far to many non jobs.

 

Most front line staff know this and it's a cull of non jobs and middle and upper management that's required allowing us "workers" to concentrate on doing our jobs.

[Winnersaint]

I moved back into the public sector(ish) and I've already told the boss we waste way to much money, are to bureaucratic and have far to many non jobs.

 

Most front line staff know this and it's a cull of non jobs and middle and upper management that's required allowing us "workers" to concentrate on doing our jobs.

 

Don't want top go into too much detail here, but I know my wife has been able to streamline her area and lose two non-jobs amounting to serious savings to the NHS even with generous redundancy terms. Her only regret is that it has taken 7 years to be empowered to do this, even though she recognised one of her team as a weak link in 03. 7 years paying someone in excess of 30K pa and noyt being able to do anything about it was a real frustration.

[Winnersaint]

Wife has recently after 7 years been given green light to reorganise her area. Only now after this length of time managing a member of her team has she been empowered to sort things out. A member of staff will take redundancy but has basically done **** all in 7 years earning in excess of 30K pa. Multiply that over many times in the NHS and other public sector organisations and you can see how it all adds up. The other thing that has to be called into question is the right to incremental annual rises that exist in the NHS and up to a point in Education without improvements in, for want of a better word for it, productivity. performance related pay and a rigorous performance management system is required in the public sector. I have 30 years of experience working in education as a secondary school teacher and benefitted for the first few years from these incremental rises, however at a time when cuts are mooted this is an area which should be looked at. For the record my no1 performance target this year is reduce the number of fixed term exclusions in my school by 35% during 2009/10. Rather less tangible is the development of a curriculum to support a reduction in fixed term exclusions. Exclusions as as of Easter were less than 50% of those of 2008/09.

[Wade Garrett]

this (and many shed loads of cut like it) are going to happen regardless of who gets in.

 

why else do you think NONE of the parties are really going into detail about how the cuts will be made..

 

about 25% is going to be cut in spending...so benefits, military, pensions, education etc...will ALL be hit one way or another

 

The rich won't. They'll be getting away with loads of inheritance tax. My point really, is that Cameron stated that he was for the 'hard-working silent majority'. The fact that he is rimming my wallet twice, while giving tax-cuts to the rich suggests same old Tories to me.

 

Labour have gone into detail. It was called the Budget.