Was it ever proved to be offside?

[Pilchards]

I was talking to my 11 year old at the Orient game and we got talking about the most important goal we have scored, he said it was someone called Bobby Stokes but his teacher told him it was offside.

Has it ever been proved that Bobby was offside or not?

 

 

 

Enjoy this which I have never seen before.

[OldNick]

great stuff, what memories

[Toomer]

IMO Bobby was a yard on-side when the ball was played through to him.

[charlie saint]

The goal stood, so it can't have been offside.

[krissyboy31]

It was a goal against Mau Utd. Of course it was off-side! They always are!

[dronskisaint]

You need to complain about that teacher!

 

Never offside...he wasn't tall enough to be offside - bless him.

 

Being an old f@rt I only revcently discovered the wealth of nostalgia to be found on youtube...must confess that those two had me in bits when I first found them.

 

What memories! :-)

[OldNick]

Buchan played him on, but he was always very bitter when asked about it

[Lets B Avenue]

If it had been given offside, then we would have had to chase the ref round the pitch to get him to change his mind.

 

That sort of thing always happens to unlucky sides.

[chrisobee]

Onside by a mile TBH !! All I really care about is what is in the record book !

[Toadhall Saint]

IMO Bobby was a yard on-side when the ball was played through to him.

 

Me too.

[L1Minus10]

No one has really proved that Geoff Hurst's 2nd in 1966 was over / not over the line so no one's gonna prove this one either way.

[Eddie Lizzard]

Martin Buchan played him onside. When you watch the dvd and use the stripes on the pitch that shows that Bobby was easily a yard onside.

[Whitey Grandad]

The second Youtube link shows him to be conclusively onside. What's the problem?

[Pilchards]

The second Youtube link shows him to be conclusively onside. What's the problem?

 

 

No problem at all, just a good talking point that's all.

 

I do recall watching a programme once which did the special freeze evidence as they do so yes, Hurst's shot was decided whether it was over or not!

[Badger]

It was a goal against Mau Utd. Of course it was off-side! They always are!

 

and the ref blew too early in 1976 without allowing another seven minutes injury time for them to at least equalise.

[david in sweden]

IMO Bobby was a yard on-side when the ball was played through to him.

 

If you run the film and stop it, play it frame by frame you can see that Stokes is level or even a little ahead of the two defenders when ball is played but look at the lines cut on the pitch ....when the camera pans forward and the ball is in the air you can see the third defender to the right of picture is already in front of the other two.

Even if Bobby was in front of the two central defenders, the third defender is already in front of them in the later frame, he would hardly have run back when the others wee going forward - so he would have played Stokes on side - at the time the ball was played.

 

Of course the result stands for all time but you can see that Stokes was onside.

[explorer saint]

Have a word with that teacher he is either a skate or a manc from the south, still bitter after all these years heh

[revolution saint]

Definitely onside and there weren't any complaints from the Man U players either. I remember talking to a Man U supporter who was at the game (tragically I was 4 and couldn't make it) and even he didn't dispute the legitimacy of the goal. Funnily enough I got the DVD years ago and was suprised at how well Saints played. It seems received wisdom that we got battered, held on and scored a goal against the run of play but it didn't seem that way to me.

[BadgerBadger]

That 2nd clip is cracking - 7-1, class

[St Landrew]

Oh come on, surely this one has been put to bed. The referee, Clive Thomas, was the very best one in the UK at the time. He had eyes like a hawk, and, when asked, has always said Bobby Stokes was onside. Besides, David Coleman said, Bobby was onside, in his commentary, so that's definitive.

Edited 8 April, 2010 by St Landrew
Clive, not Clice Thomas. What a dodo..!

[VectisSaint]

Jack Charlton said it was onside, so it was onside. Record books say we won 1-0, it was onside. 25 million cases where Manure get decisions for them, one against and it is disputed. Teacher must be a Manure supporter, easily checked, has he got an Estuary accent?

[La BoIS Saint]

Wouldn't mind if it was conclusively proved he was offside it would just make it better. Same goes for Hurst.

[VectisSaint]

Anyone able to edit the 2nd YouTube clip, brilliant clip ruined by the image of the evil witch, never realised it was at the game. Takes some of the shine off what was probably greatest day of my life.

[Whitey Grandad]

No problem at all, just a good talking point that's all.

 

I do recall watching a programme once which did the special freeze evidence as they do so yes, Hurst's shot was decided whether it was over or not!

And we're still talking abou them! The more I see the Hurst goal the less it looks like it was over the line. I watched the game in black and white and I don't think there were action replays at that time so it was all a bit murky. What clinched it for me at the time is that someone else (Hunt or Peters?) had the opportunity to put the ball in the net and didn't bother, so it must have been clear to him. My girlfriend at the time (now my wife) and I were 16 at the time and she was going on a school exchange to Germany that evening from Victoria train station. I can clearly remember all the fans from both teams 'celebrating' in the streets of London as we drove her there. She said that when she got to Germany they didn't talk much about the match.

Edited 9 April, 2010 by Whitey Grandad
Tyops

[St Landrew]

Wouldn't mind if it was conclusively proved he was offside it would just make it better. Same goes for Hurst.

 

You mean the near post header against Argentina in the Qtr finals, I presume..?

 

Not offside, and very West Ham'ish. In those days, all crossed balls went to the far post and then headed in [as we've seen, Ron Davies did a lot of that]. But Ron Greenwood and West Ham started the near post header craze. What it meant was that in the 1966 World Cup, Geoff Hurst scored a couple of headed goals at the near post totally unchallenged. Nobody defended against it. West Ham were quite the trend setters, as far as tactics were concerned, in those days. Not sure, but I think 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 [instead of 2-3-5] started with West Ham in the early 1960's.

[70's Mike]

Have a word with that teacher he is either a skate or a manc from the south, still bitter after all these years heh

 

Sums up my views.

i took my driving test on the 30th April 1976 and had to listen to a Plastic Manc tester tell me for an hour how they were going to stuff saints 6-o according to him and Bobby Charlton.

Bit my tongue until he told me i had passed and gave me paperwork, then gave him both barrels of what a to**er he was , i often worry about who was next up that day for test

[chocco boxo]

1976 = Offside 2010 = Typical Germans

Fact 1976 = Saints FA Cup Winners: Fact 2010 = Bayern through to semis of Champions League.

Same old Utd always BAD LOSERS. Tell your son some things never change.

[Prince Jazzbo]

I suspect that if Andy Gray had been on TV then, with all the technology, and views from about 50 different angles, and as many chances to view it again, it may have been determined that Bobby was about 1,000,000th of an inch offside.

 

But they did'nt so he wasn't.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Amn we're still talking abou them! The more I see the Hurst goal the less it looks like it was over the line. I watched the game in black and white and I don't think there were action replays at that time so it was all a bit murky. What clinched it for me at the time is that someone else (Hunt or Peters?) had the opportunity to put the ball in the net and didn't bother, so it must have been clear to him. My girlfriend at the time (now my wife) and I were 16 at the time and she was going on a school exchange to Germany that evening from Victoria train station. I can clearly remember all the fans from both teams 'celebrating' in the streets of London as we drove her there. She said that when she got to Germany they didn't talk much about the match.

 

Freeze frame on the old b/w film doesn't prove a thing on Hurst's goal, as there is no frame between the ball about 18" or so above the ground on its way down, and again about the same height on its way up again.

 

However, the ball comes off the bar, hits the ground somewhere and bounces outwards. Now unless there was very heavy backspin on the ball, which given the way Hurst hit it seems unlikely, it is more probable that the ball was not wholly over the line.

 

As for the famed "reaction" of Hunt, how many footballers have we seen claiming goals when the ball wasn't wholly over the line? Loads of them. Knowing the rules never seems to be players' strong points. His reaction may have been all the stronger as it looks unlikely he would have been able to have reached and scored from the rebounding ball anyway.

 

Regarding Bobby's 1976 goal, Buchan was daydreaming over the far side. I was sat on Saints left wing side fairly close to the centre line, and it looked onside to me.

 

The biggest p*sser for me was that my mates had tickets behind the goal, so we weren't together. They said before the game that they wanted to get away straight after the final whistle, and they'd meet me in the coach park to walk back to the car. I dutifully complied, only to wait there for 3/4 hour, they having decided to soak up the atmoshere, which I of course missed. Never have forgiven them for that. I have rebelled against "committee" decisions ever since!

[Barry the Badger]

I suspect that if Andy Gray had been on TV then, with all the technology, and views from about 50 different angles, and as many chances to view it again, it may have been determined that Bobby was about 1,000,000th of an inch offside.

 

But they did'nt so he wasn't.

 

This is the thing that winds me up more than any other when it comes to televised football.

 

Either with your example, or my particular favourite... They look at a penalty shout, zoom in, watch it frame by frame, and then again, and again, and finally conclude that yes there was contact so the referee got it wrong and is clearly useless.

 

I would LOVE to see Andy Gray try to referee a premiership football match.

 

and.....relax.......

[Ziggy]

I was in Manchester for New Year's Eve about 20 years' ago and when it got to midnight I started chanting Bobby Stokes, Bobby Stokes! Some Manc walked past and told me he was offside! It made my night!

[Whitey Grandad]

Freeze frame on the old b/w film doesn't prove a thing on Hurst's goal, as there is no frame between the ball about 18" or so above the ground on its way down, and again about the same height on its way up again.

 

However, the ball comes off the bar, hits the ground somewhere and bounces outwards. Now unless there was very heavy backspin on the ball, which given the way Hurst hit it seems unlikely, it is more probable that the ball was not wholly over the line.

 

As for the famed "reaction" of Hunt, how many footballers have we seen claiming goals when the ball wasn't wholly over the line? Loads of them. Knowing the rules never seems to be players' strong points. His reaction may have been all the stronger as it looks unlikely he would have been able to have reached and scored from the rebounding ball anyway.

 

Regarding Bobby's 1976 goal, Buchan was daydreaming over the far side. I was sat on Saints left wing side fairly close to the centre line, and it looked onside to me.

 

The biggest p*sser for me was that my mates had tickets behind the goal, so we weren't together. They said before the game that they wanted to get away straight after the final whistle, and they'd meet me in the coach park to walk back to the car. I dutifully complied, only to wait there for 3/4 hour, they having decided to soak up the atmoshere, which I of course missed. Never have forgiven them for that. I have rebelled against "committee" decisions ever since!

That Hurst goal is still being debated 46 years later, but the final score was 4-2 and so it might only have been 3-2. We still won the world cup.

[St Landrew]

I was in Manchester for New Year's Eve about 20 years' ago and when it got to midnight I started chanting Bobby Stokes, Bobby Stokes! Some Manc walked past and told me he was offside! It made my night!

 

Excellent. Next time try chanting something about Ron Davies scoring 4 goals at OT, and see if anyone says it was only 3. Because of course, there is a dispute over that too.

[jam]

I was talking to my 11 year old at the Orient game and we got talking about the most important goal we have scored, he said it was someone called Bobby Stokes but his teacher told him it was offside.

Has it ever been proved that Bobby was offside or not?

 

 

 

Enjoy this which I have never seen before.

 

Not seen that second clip before - thanks for posting it, Pilchards.

 

Definitely onside.

[Saint_clark]

Not seen that second clip before - thanks for posting it, Pilchards.

 

Definitely onside.

 

Absolutely. McCalliog plays the pass when Lawrie says "Stokes", so keep your eyes on the defence at that point.

[Whitey Grandad]

Excellent. Next time try chanting something about Ron Davies scoring 4 goals at OT, and see if anyone says it was only 3. Because of course, there is a dispute over that too.

What about the Shipperley header that was wrongly disallowed at OT in the FA Cup? They never talk about that one, do they.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

That Hurst goal is still being debated 46 years later, but the final score was 4-2 and so it might only have been 3-2. We still won the world cup.

 

But it wasn't the 4th goal, was it?

It was the goal that turned the game, so who knows what the result would have been had it been disallowed. Pure debating point, of course.

[madamster]

Morning all, not been here for a couple of years but I was looking up something from our (Derby's) 1976 semi final defeat to Utd and this thread appeared on my feed. Buchan, who was the left hand side of the back 3 played Stokes on. Teacher was wrong. I also read the rest of the thread and found reference to that Geoff Hurst 1966 moment of "was it or wasn't it?" being discussed. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the ball hit the bar, ricocheted down and bounced ON THE LINE rather than over it. I have a '66 World Cup DVD. That moment is shown in colour and was filmed by a USA company. I have watched the video and paused it at exactly the point where the ball hits the ground. It should not have been given.

 

Then the plot thickens. Germany had equalised 20 seconds before the end of normal time and forced extra time. Their goal should not have been allowed as Kar-Heinz Schnellinger, the German #3 was, according to the offside Law as it was back then, stood in an offside position. Gordon Banks said, at the time and reiterated in his 2002 book that Schnellinger also handled the ball, something I can neither confirm nor deny with any certainty.

 

Why a thickening plot? Tofiq Bahramov, in England often incorrectly referred to as "the Russian linesman", was a Soviet footballer and football referee from Azerbaijan so not Russian, was the linesman who led the referee to believe it was a goal. He was also the 90th minute man who failed to flag Schnellinger's offside position. I have always thought that he knew he had made a mistake in not flagging Schnellinger and that his role in England's 3rd was an attempt by him to right a wrong. England were the rightful winners but it should have been 2-1 and not 4-2 and Hurst would not have had a World Cup Final hat-trick.

 

One last word, you are not having a happy season, I hope you can turn it round and avoid the drop.

[yellow&blue]

Both Geoff Hurst’s and Bobby Stokes’ goal were in the same end.....conspiracy? lol

[alpine_saint]

Looked at the second link.

 

At the time the ball was played, he was well behind Buchan.

[kwsaint]

tell the teacher to watch the YouTube video and stop it at the point that McCalliog played the pass. Check the lines on the pitch and where Bobby was. Then let it run and see Martin Buchan come into the shot - check which line he was on (and has been rightly pointed out he was running forward). Bobby was a yard or two onside. It wasn't even close. It's just the appearance of the usual footage.

 

First 20 minutes were a bit touch and go, but after then it settled down. Last 30 minutes only one team were going to win - and it wasnt United. LM really did his homework on them that day

[Bad Wolf]

Onside when the ball is played. Stop moaning, United.

[Dark Munster]

United have won so many trophies (including the CL and umpteen PLs) since 1976 why would they care about our FA cup win?