Election 2010

[Causer]

One thing that sums up Brown for me was at a European leader get-together a while ago. They had a buffet lunch and they all stood around chatting with each other, doing deals etc, and Brown was sat in the corner on his own, just eating and sulking. I’ve never got that image of him out of my mind since.

 

But, baring all this in mind, he’s still infinitely more preferable then Cameron. It’s true that Brown has tried to play upon his being mates with Obama, which is just wish-fulfilment, but who can forget Obama's classic summing up of Cameron when they had a meeting during Obama’s visit to Britain…’what a lightweight’.

 

The Obama 'quote' which coincidently was the same as the Labour attack at the time was from a New Statesman journalist James Macintyre who is best mates with Mandleson. It was strongly denied by the Obama administration.

 

How abut this quote from Obama's official biographer Richard Wolffe.

 

He had a strong impression, a strong reaction, to both Cameron and Brown. It was right at the end of his foreign trip. And he was really taken with Cameron. He and his aides thought that he had energy and verve, a dynamism that suggested he was a good candidate – remember this was a candidate at the time, not a president. And there was bonding that took place which you might not expect of two people at the opposite ends of the political spectrum ’

[dune]

As I've said, read up on Italian politics, the moves to stip him of his power, and the laws he has put in place solely to protect himself and then you'll have a place to comment.

 

Unlike you I base my comments on the evidence, not a chat with my neighbours daughter.

 

Read this article and you'll see what I mean but hey, you know more than me about Italian politics.

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7044658.ece

 

I refer you back to my earlier point and that was that berlosconi has a personality and Gordon Brown doesn't imo. I think we're going way off the radar here with this debate on Italian politics. I have no real interest in Italian politics and on that basis i will bow to your superior knowledge on the subject. I tend to base my views on the results of elections and the last time I looked Berloscone polled 37% of the vote, but obviously you're right and i'm wrong because you've been on holiday there.

[View From The Top]

I refer you back to my earlier point and that was that berlosconi has a personality and Gordon Brown doesn't imo. I think we're going way off the radar here with this debate on Italian politics. I have no real interest in Italian politics and on that basis i will bow to your superior knowledge on the subject. I tend to base my views on the results of elections and the last time I looked Berloscone polled 37% of the vote, but obviously you're right and i'm wrong because you've been on holiday there.

 

Again, don't pretend to know me.

 

Berlosconi's personality is what is driving the people to ditch him. It will get you only so far in politics, European or domestic.

[dune]

Again, don't pretend to know me.

 

Berlosconi's personality is what is driving the people to ditch him. It will get you only so far in politics, European or domestic.

 

But i've already acknowledged that Berlosconis personality is an extreme, but it is a personality non the less. In modern politics you need to be able to connect with the electorate in some way to show you are human, Brown can't do it becuase he's a loner.

 

And apologies for you thinking i presume to know you. Perhaps you can elaborate on your qualification to speak for the Italian electorate (despite the election result).

[Baj]

And apologies for you thinking i presume to know you. Perhaps you can elaborate on your qualification to speak for the Italian electorate (despite the election result).

 

If you try to get along with people on here you'll stand a much better chance of being able to still post when the election day comes

[dune]

If you try to get along with people on here you'll stand a much better chance of being able to still post when the election day comes

 

That's unfair. VFTT regularly dishes out abuse and i've not abused him. I've argued why I think he's wrong and i've given the example of an ex pat Italians view who I know and the view of the Italian people at the 2008 election. Not really sure how you can take a side here baj. I respect you want things kept civil and there's no reason why these things can't be discussed civilly.

[Baj]

If you need to be told the difference between conversation and condescension then perhaps you should refrain from posting on SWF altogether

[dune]

If you need to be told the difference between conversation and condescension then perhaps you should refrain from posting on SWF altogether

 

It should cut both ways though. I'll try harder for my part, but VFTT was just as guilty as me yet you didn't single him out.

[bungle]

It should cut both ways though. I'll try harder for my part, but VFTT was just as guilty as me yet you didn't single him out.

 

lol

[dune]

lol

 

That response says it all. I don't agree with you ever, but for once can't we just be civil and discuss things properly?

[Lord Duckhunter]

From Bernie Eccleston to Browns lies , this has been the most corrupt Govt in living memory. Cash for honours, Michael Martin, Mandleson's 2 resignations,Dr David Kelly, The sexed up dossier,Blair's Bristol flats, right through to Gordon Brown's lieing to the Chilcott enquiry they have been a mixture of corrupt and incompetant. They deserve to be thrown out of office once and for all.

 

They were given a massive mandate in 97 along with a great ecomony and they wasted them both. It was under this Labour Govt that we went to war in Iraq, that the City was so badly regulated that the banks were given a free reign,sold our gold at rock bottom prices, that the poorest got poorer and social mobility at it's lowest level for 50 years, it was this Labour Govt and Brown in particular that smashed up the World's best private pension provisions . In the good times people turn to Labour under the mistaken belief that they'll make society fairer,but they never do. All Labour Govts ever do is put up tax and run out of money, and this one was no different.

 

Yet again it will be left to the Torys to clean up their mess, and once the Country is returned to good health it will proberly turn to Labour again, and the cycle will continue.

 

A part of me hopes that Gordon Brown wins this election, so that he can face up to what he did, and has to deal with the fallout of his policies. He wins it so that the Country can see that he has no answers and is an incompetant idiot, but then I look at my 9 & 10 year olds and think, why should they have to suffer more of this fool's mistakes. Why should their generation pay for the mistakes of my generation?

[jeff leopard]

You "lost" the argument as soon as you said the bit in bold. Politics has moved on and you should too. Support whoever you have the chance to vote in. The labour party of "old" had some loathsome characters, but that is no reason for someone not to vote labour!

 

Lost the argument? I wasn’t trying to win anything, and I certainly wasn’t arguing.

 

Actually, if the Tories had opposed the invasion of Iraq I would have voted for them just to register my protest. But they didn’t, of course, and i get the impression that they would have made all the same mistakes labour have made in the last ten years or so.

 

A hung parliament? Hmmm, that'd give our wonderful politicians the chance to work together (in sweet harmony) to bring the best of all their policies to bearfor the good of the nation...... OR it would allow them to conduct more "back room" decisions based on who makes the best concession (or bribe) to get what they want. Fag packet planning and power mongering at its worst. Do you trust our politicians to "power share" without it descending into farce? AND - we'd end up with another election in the short\medium term as nothing would be getting done.

 

What’s this vision of hung parliament hell based on? Europe, where it works well, or the previous hung parliament in the 70s? If it’s the latter…

 

Politics has moved on and you should too.

 

In a perfect world, a hung parliament would be putting the right people in the right positions, regardless of their party. In reality it may well be a complete mess, but I can’t imagine it being any worse than more labour or a return to the tories. As all the party leaders keep bleating, 'its time for a change'.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The only parties who want to change the voting system, are ones with no chance of winning an outright majority. Labour didn't talk much about PR in the past 2 elections, now all of a sudden they're interested. The Tory's had no chance in 2001 & 05 but never resorted to desperate talk of changing the system.

 

Funny how the Lib/Dems came below UKIP when this system was used for the European elections. This suggests to me that they pick up many anti Tory votes in Tory areas and anti Labour votes in Labour areas. When every vote counts, they failed misreably. Perhaps a couple more PR results like that, and they'll be calling for a return to first past the post.

[Baj]

 

What’s this vision of hung parliament hell based on? Europe, where it works well

I'm sure the belgians would disagree

[dune]

I'm sure the belgians would disagree

 

On the subject of Belgium...

 

[View From The Top]

The only parties who want to change the voting system, are ones with no chance of winning an outright majority. Labour didn't talk much about PR in the past 2 elections, now all of a sudden they're interested. The Tory's had no chance in 2001 & 05 but never resorted to desperate talk of changing the system.

 

Funny how the Lib/Dems came below UKIP when this system was used for the European elections. This suggests to me that they pick up many anti Tory votes in Tory areas and anti Labour votes in Labour areas. When every vote counts, they failed misreably. Perhaps a couple more PR results like that, and they'll be calling for a return to first past the post.

 

Rubbish. It's not the parties that matter, it's the electorate.

 

Far, far too many, of all political colours, are disenfranchised by the current system.

 

Far too many live in constituencies where their vote doesn't matter and that can't be right.

[GenevaSaint]

that the City was so badly regulated that the banks were given a free reign,that the poorest got poorer and social mobility at it's lowest level for 50 years

 

The Tories would have done little different in regards to the regulations around banks, deregulated markets were a corner stone of the Thatcher years.

 

In regards to the poor getting poorer, can you provide any proof of this? Lies damned lies and statistics and all that, but personally I thought child poverty decreasing under Labour was a given.

 

Anyway I really can't see the lot of the lower social classes/poor/people living on the breadline improving under the tories, can you? Now I think inheritance tax is wrong in principle, but raising the starting point to £1m is going to do what for the lower classes? Where is that money going to come from?

[AndyNorthernSaints]

That response says it all. I don't agree with you ever, but for once can't we just be civil and discuss things properly?

 

You would be better suited using some evidence and facts to back up your arguements rather than making assumptions about people. You have previously demonstrated your lack of understanding of the meaning of Socialism and New Labour which also does not help anyone taking you seriously when discussing political issues. Being open about your support for BNP also has not helped you.

[Thedelldays]

The Tories would have done little different in regards to the regulations around banks, deregulated markets were a corner stone of the Thatcher years.

 

In regards to the poor getting poorer, can you provide any proof of this? Lies damned lies and statistics and all that, but personally I thought child poverty decreasing under Labour was a given.

 

Anyway I really can't see the lot of the lower social classes/poor/people living on the breadline improving under the tories, can you? Now I think inheritance tax is wrong in principle, but raising the starting point to £1m is going to do what for the lower classes? Where is that money going to come from?

sorry..this excuse simply does not wash anymore

[GenevaSaint]

Labour have once again tried to make the camapaign a class war, but to me having a PM that has had a good eductaion isn't a bad thing.

 

Brown has a PhD from a good university, it has got nothing to do with education. Cameron is seen as elitist, end of. In regards to some of your other posts Dune, I would much rather have someone of substance that a glossy veneer, which I think Cameron is. Please lets not go down the personality route as they do in the US, it should be about policies not persona.

[View From The Top]

sorry..this excuse simply does not wash anymore

 

It does in the context that it is used in that post.

[dune]

David cameron talks of mending a broken Britian and that is going to take some doing. Personally i think we need more police officers, more cctv cameras in crime hotspots and most importantly more prisons. These measures will all cost money, but that needn't be the case. Prisoners currently cost money and this needs to change. There are many secure ways that prisoners can be put to work and when i say work i mean 12 hour shifts 6 days a week. It's measures like this that will mend broken Britian.

[Thedelldays]

It does in the context that it is used in that post.

labour have been in for how long and could have changed it...

 

like they have done with many other things

 

personally..I think we should follow the yank method...no longer than 2 terms (8 years in power)

[GenevaSaint]

sorry..this excuse simply does not wash anymore

 

It's a statement TDD not an excuse, the deregulation of the banking markets would have come about under ANY government. I was just pointing out that the Tories started the deregulation of our markets in the 80's and would have in my eye's done the same as Labour.

 

Elsewhere in the thread there is mention of the gold stocks being sold, at rock bottom prices. Imagine if we had the foresight of the French and didn't fully privatise every damn market, profits now going to EDF (Eletricity de France) might be flowing back into the British economy/government. Anyway, that's all in the past.

[View From The Top]

labour have been in for how long and could have changed it...

 

like they have done with many other things

 

 

It's about Thatcherism, not Thatcher so in the context he has used he's correct.

[dune]

Being open about your support for BNP also has not helped you.

 

You're probably right. I'm not keen on Nick griffin - he's a liability, but i agree with BNP policies. That said i'd much prefer the tories to move to the right and win back people like myself that have had to choose parties like the BNP and UKIP. I think it's the same for many of those on the left that wish Labour would move further to the left so they didn't have to turn to the likes of the Greens etc.

Edited 7 April, 2010 by dune

[Thedelldays]

It's about Thatcherism, not Thatcher so in the context he has used he's correct.

roger

 

AR

[Lord Duckhunter]

It's a statement TDD not an excuse, the deregulation of the banking markets would have come about under ANY government. I was just pointing out that the Tories started the deregulation of our markets in the 80's and would have in my eye's done the same as Labour.

 

Elsewhere in the thread there is mention of the gold stocks being sold, at rock bottom prices. Imagine if we had the foresight of the French and didn't fully privatise every damn market, profits now going to EDF (Eletricity de France) might be flowing back into the British economy/government. Anyway, that's all in the past.

 

Brown changed the regulation from the BoE to the tripartite system, it was his decision and was opposed by the Torys.

 

It was also his decision to sell the gold at rock bottom prices, against the judgement of the Torys and now it appears advise from the BoE. This cost the country £7 billion which is twice as much as "Black Wednesday" cost us.

[View From The Top]

personally..I think we should follow the yank method...no longer than 2 terms (8 years in power)

 

I'm confussed here.

 

Do you mean the government should have no more than 2 terms or the PM have no more than 2 terms?

[Thedelldays]

I'm confussed here.

 

Do you mean the government should have no more than 2 terms or the PM have no more than 2 terms?

The PM...IMO, they always seem to go on for too long...blair got out while he could, he was not daft..and brown led the country at the worst possible time..

 

basically, like the yanks do

[Lord Duckhunter]

Rubbish. It's not the parties that matter, it's the electorate.

 

Far, far too many, of all political colours, are disenfranchised by the current system.

 

Far too many live in constituencies where their vote doesn't matter and that can't be right.

 

The point I was making was that the Lib/Dems keep bringing up this PR and how it's unfair on them, yet in the European Elections they came below UKIP. This is because a high % of their vote is a protest against the incumbent MP.

 

If you were a Tory living in a Labour area the only way to get rid of the Labour MP would be to vote Lib/Dem and visa versa in Tory areas.

 

People who think PR will bring about a great Lib/Dem surge are wrong, as the European PR elections have shown.

[dune]

personally..I think we should follow the yank method...no longer than 2 terms (8 years in power)

 

Disagree. the two term rule is fine for fledgling democracies, but we're a little more mature than that.

[View From The Top]

The point I was making was that the Lib/Dems keep bringing up this PR and how it's unfair on them, yet in the European Elections they came below UKIP. This is because a high % of their vote is a protest against the incumbent MP.

 

If you were a Tory living in a Labour area the only way to get rid of the Labour MP would be to vote Lib/Dem and visa versa in Tory areas.

 

People who think PR will bring about a great Lib/Dem surge are wrong, as the European PR elections have shown.

 

The point I was making is that it shouldn't matter what the parties want but what the electorate wants.

 

Far too many are disconnected from politics and knowing that your vote is never going to be worth owt is hardly a way to re-connect them.

[IamLeGod]

There will be no winners whoever wins.

 

Politicians see this as there career and do not enter politics out of a sense of passion or duty. I think all politicians should have to have worked in the real world for fifteen years before being eligible.

 

I agree with the first part. Cameron or Brown. Either way we lose. Even worse a hung parliament which, historically, is about as effective as a house sculpted from ice in the Sahara.

 

However, I think it is harsh to tar all politicians with the same brush. Admittedly yes some are simply career politicians. But to say all are is rather extreme.

 

Also, what exactly is this 'real world' that you speak of? What exactly constitutes a real world? Seems to be a favourite criticism of any anti-Westminster type. It often seems to be something of a double-edge sword. To get any where in politics you need to start young and work hard to climb the 'greasy-pole' - leading to the claim they know nothing of the 'real world'. However, if they live in this real world of which you talk, have a life/career etc and then attempt to come in to politics they are accused of having no experience and not knowing anything about politics.

[dune]

The point I was making was that the Lib/Dems keep bringing up this PR and how it's unfair on them, yet in the European Elections they came below UKIP. This is because a high % of their vote is a protest against the incumbent MP.

 

Much of the Liberal vote has always been a protest vote and always will be.

[IamLeGod]

Disagree. the two term rule is fine for fledgling democracies, but we're a little more mature than that.

 

Fledgling Democracies? To what exactly are you referring? The two-term rule wasn't introduced into America until mid-way through the last century...nearly 2 centuries after the creation of the 'Democratic' United States.

 

In true terms our democracy is really not much older (if at all) than the United States. Though its very arguable that the 'democracies' of both country are still hardly democratic at all...

[dune]

Fledgling Democracies? To what exactly are you referring? The two-term rule wasn't introduced into America until mid-way through the last century...nearly 2 centuries after the creation of the 'Democratic' United States.

 

In true terms our democracy is really not much older (if at all) than the United States. Though its very arguable that the 'democracies' of both country are still hardly democratic at all...

 

The point i'm making is that limiting a candidate to two terms, and we're not a republic so have no president anyway, is undemocratic. If you have an uncorrupt system of voting (as we have) then there's no reason for a limit. America really should have more faith in it's own democracy than it does.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Much of the Liberal vote has always been a protest vote and always will be.

Whilst there is first past the post, this will continue to be the case. It also allows them to play the victim with their 30% share of the vote. when PR is used, their share of the vote goes down. First past the post suits their agenda, PR would put them alongside the Greens and a long way behind UKIP. Their supporters will never admit it though.

[IamLeGod]

David cameron talks of mending a broken Britian and that is going to take some doing. Personally i think we need more police officers, more cctv cameras in crime hotspots and most importantly more prisons. These measures will all cost money, but that needn't be the case. Prisoners currently cost money and this needs to change. There are many secure ways that prisoners can be put to work and when i say work i mean 12 hour shifts 6 days a week. It's measures like this that will mend broken Britian.

 

Sorry Mr. Griffin. Why don't we just build a big raft, pile as many cons on as possible and float them off from Portsmouth and see what happens?

 

That fact is we live in apparently live in a Liberal Democracy, and to enjoy all the perks that that brings and we have come to enjoy, we have to accept there come some downsides. The fundamental hinge of living in such a society is that everyone is entitled to their basic human rights and civil liberties. These human rights have to at all costs be protected. The moment the State is allowed to erode these a society in this system enters real danger of sliding into a terroristic authoritarian fascist state, as can be exemplified by Hitler and the Nazi regime.

 

Criminals, however vile, disgusting, repulsive or heinous their crimes; still have human rights and civil liberties. You cannot simply treat them in any fashion or use them as cheap labour. This is once again acting, as mentioned above, in a way akin to the Nazi's using the Jews and other prisoners in their concentration camps for labour.

[dune]

Sorry Mr. Griffin. Why don't we just build a big raft, pile as many cons on as possible and float them off from Portsmouth and see what happens?

 

That fact is we live in apparently live in a Liberal Democracy, and to enjoy all the perks that that brings and we have come to enjoy, we have to accept there come some downsides. The fundamental hinge of living in such a society is that everyone is entitled to their basic human rights and civil liberties. These human rights have to at all costs be protected. The moment the State is allowed to erode these a society in this system enters real danger of sliding into a terroristic authoritarian fascist state, as can be exemplified by Hitler and the Nazi regime.

 

Criminals, however vile, disgusting, repulsive or heinous their crimes; still have human rights and civil liberties. You cannot simply treat them in any fashion or use them as cheap labour. This is once again acting, as mentioned above, in a way akin to the Nazi's using the Jews and other prisoners in their concentration camps for labour.

 

I'm not saying they should be ill treated or starved. They should simply be put to work instead of being allowed to doss about playing pool or doing meaningless wood work projects. If the penal system could be made profitable then the money saved on that could go elsewhere or our taxes could be reduced. It makes perfect sense. How about using them to create green electricity as an example. I'm sure you must have had a hamster at some stage so why not put prisoners to work on treadmills to produce power?

Edited 7 April, 2010 by dune

[IamLeGod]

Whilst there is first past the post, this will continue to be the case. It also allows them to play the victim with their 30% share of the vote. when PR is used, their share of the vote goes down. First past the post suits their agenda, PR would put them alongside the Greens and a long way behind UKIP. Their supporters will never admit it though.

 

I really find this hard to believe. The Greens and UKIP are glorified single-issue parties. Despite their efforts to appear not to be, and provide stances on other issues, they are closer to representing pressure groups than genuine political parties.

 

The Lib Dems on the other hand are a genuine established political party. That have, and always have had, stances on all issues and attempt to offer a realistic choice in the governance of the UK. Let us not forget that Liberal's under the various guises over the years have spent time in government. Whilst in may not have been for some time, it is also worth noting that the Labour party were once just trade unions (arguably this hasnt changed) and very few people ever saw them as standing a realistic chance of governing the country, especially not winning three consecutive general elections holding government for 13 years in the manner this current labour government has done.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I really find this hard to believe. The Greens and UKIP are glorified single-issue parties. Despite their efforts to appear not to be, and provide stances on other issues, they are closer to representing pressure groups than genuine political parties.

 

The Lib Dems on the other hand are a genuine established political party. That have, and always have had, stances on all issues and attempt to offer a realistic choice in the governance of the UK. Let us not forget that Liberal's under the various guises over the years have spent time in government. Whilst in may not have been for some time, it is also worth noting that the Labour party were once just trade unions (arguably this hasnt changed) and very few people ever saw them as standing a realistic chance of governing the country, especially not winning three consecutive general elections holding government for 13 years in the manner this current labour government has done.

 

Their vote in the PR European elections was pathetic, coming 4th behind a "pressure group".

They got 13.7% of the PR vote as opposed to 22.1% in the last First past the post election. This is solely down to Torys in Labour areas and Labour voters in Tory areas.When every vote counts, people dont vote for them in the numbers they do in thye present system.

 

They are political chancers, they change their views depending on which seast they are fighting. In Labour areas they are left wing and in Tory areas right wing.The facts are there to see, when there is a PR system, their share of the votes went down

[IamLeGod]

Their vote in the PR European elections was pathetic, coming 4th behind a "pressure group".

They got 13.7% of the PR vote as opposed to 22.1% in the last First past the post election. This is solely down to Torys in Labour areas and Labour voters in Tory areas.When every vote counts, people dont vote for them in the numbers they do in thye present system.

 

They are political chancers, they change their views depending on which seast they are fighting. In Labour areas they are left wing and in Tory areas right wing.The facts are there to see, when there is a PR system, their share of the votes went down

 

Im not so sure this essentially proves they are a pressure group. European elections are historically very different to General Elections in the UK. Also turnont (which is poor in GE's) is pathetic in European Elections.

 

The Lib Dem's are and always have been strong supporters of the EU. Seeing as how last year UKIP and the BNP did relatively well (I mean by their own standards which are at a pretty poor starting point), it clearly demonstrates that voters at this time were feeling strong anti-EU/Lisbon treaty sentiments. Put the two together and hey presto - poor Lib Dem vote in Euro elections. Not really that hard to comprehend when you actually look at the whole picture behind the numbers.

 

So yes these PRESSURE GROUPS gain more votes on the issue that they exist around when the general population seems to share their view. Wait until May 7th and see if UKIP/Greens/BNP gain anywhere near the level of votes the Lib Dems do.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The Lib Dem's are and always have been strong supporters of the EU. Seeing as how last year UKIP and the BNP did relatively well (I mean by their own standards which are at a pretty poor starting point), it clearly demonstrates that voters at this time were feeling strong anti-EU/Lisbon treaty sentiments. Put the two together and hey presto - poor Lib Dem vote in Euro elections. Not really that hard to comprehend when you actually look at the whole picture behind the numbers.

 

So yes these PRESSURE GROUPS gain more votes on the issue that they exist around when the general population seems to share their view. Wait until May 7th and see if UKIP/Greens/BNP gain anywhere near the level of votes the Lib Dems do.

 

 

UKIP came second, so they did better than "relatively well".

 

You wont be able to tell about UKIP's level of support this time, because it's first past the post. Labour voters will vote Lib/Dem in Tory areas and visa versa. Take away tactical voting, and their share will fall, as it did it the last PR elections.

 

The European PR Election results are fact, everything else is opinion.

[IamLeGod]

UKIP came second, so they did better than "relatively well".

 

You wont be able to tell about UKIP's level of support this time, because it's first past the post. Labour voters will vote Lib/Dem in Tory areas and visa versa. Take away tactical voting, and their share will fall, as it did it the last PR elections.

 

The European PR Election results are fact, everything else is opinion.

 

Im not disputing the results, im disputing the reasoning.

 

As you said everything else is opinion. It is your opinion that Lib Dem's only gain protest votes against the Tories/Labour depending on the constituency. You seem to assume they have no actual supporters, which isnt true. You don't gain that number of seats simply as a protest.

 

It's interesting how voting numbers are only fact when they support what you are saying. When challenged to look at the forthcoming General Election results you simply dismiss them.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The point was about PR, so the forthcoming elections will not tell us anything about PR. The last PR elections that were held show the level of Lib/Dem support under PR.

 

Take away tactical voting and they fell to 13% and 4th.

[GenevaSaint]

I'm not saying they should be ill treated or starved. They should simply be put to work instead of being allowed to doss about playing pool or doing meaningless wood work projects. If the penal system could be made profitable then the money saved on that could go elsewhere or our taxes could be reduced. It makes perfect sense. How about using them to create green electricity as an example. I'm sure you must have had a hamster at some stage so why not put prisoners to work on treadmills to produce power?

 

Oh my god, I actually agree with Dune here. Seriously, there must be lots of community type projects that could use free/cheap labour. Rehabilitation of the offenders and regeneration of the community could both be goals. No doubt there might be some shouting about human rights.

[View From The Top]

The point was about PR, so the forthcoming elections will not tell us anything about PR. The last PR elections that were held show the level of Lib/Dem support under PR.

 

Take away tactical voting and they fell to 13% and 4th.

 

 

You do understand how deeply flawed that line of thinking is don't you are does someone need to draw you a picture?

[IamLeGod]

You do understand how deeply flawed that line of thinking is don't you are does someone need to draw you a picture?

 

Thought I was banging my head against a brick wall for a moment

[John B]

What do people on here think of Cameron?

 

 

Is he a fast talking opportunist or has he got something

 

 

He could be the Prime Minister is a month or so which frightens me