US Apache killing civvies on wikileaks.

[thesaint sfc]

Why the hell would anyone think the tories wouldn't have done things exactly the same? Idiot.

 

Bit uncalled for really. Ginger.

[Robsk II]

Perhaps a bit uncalled for. At least it could subjectively have been called accurate.

[MatthewStiles]

 

When has a British government ever previously got a PR expert to spin a dossier in order to go to war for reason that turned out to be completely false?

 

 

Ever heard of Suez and the invasion in 1956? At least Labour opposed that stupidity. The Tories organised Suez and supported the Iraq war. In fact, far more Labour MP's voted against the Iraq war than Tories.

[aintforever]

Ever heard of Suez and the invasion in 1956? At least Labour opposed that stupidity. The Tories organised Suez and supported the Iraq war. In fact, far more Labour MP's voted against the Iraq war than Tories.

 

I wouldn't vote for the Tories either, it's only that nob-head Robsk II who has mentioned the Tories, I think they are a bunch of ****s.

 

My point was that, out of principle, you shouldn't vote for a government who has lied to take the country to war, it doesn't matter what colour they are.

[Robsk II]

But voting others in without asking for a proper change won't guarantee change in thinking or actions. nob head.

[aintforever]

But voting others in without asking for a proper change won't guarantee change in thinking or actions. nob head.

 

Voting for anyone won't guarantee anything you think c**t.

[Robsk II]

Good point then, Einstein.

[Hatch]

If I was anywhere in the world and had a gun and believed that someone was just about to shoot me, war zone or not,

I would shoot them first, and deal with the consequences after.

I least I would still be around to deal with it.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

If I was anywhere in the world and had a gun and believed that someone was just about to shoot me, war zone or not,

I would shoot them first, and deal with the consequences after.

 

What if you simply thought it was a gun but turnt out to be a camera, does the shooting bit still count ?

[Thedelldays]

If I was anywhere in the world and had a gun and believed that someone was just about to shoot me, war zone or not,

I would shoot them first, and deal with the consequences after.

I least I would still be around to deal with it.

this is also true..

 

back in the day when I ever had to do armed sentery duties..we were trained to use minimum force.. IE, if someone comes at you with a bat, you cant shoot them but you can use your casco baton to "defend" yourself within reason

 

if someone pulls a gun on you or other in your vicinity you shoot them with the sole aim of killing them..no mistake.

 

it is better to be alive and deal with the afters than be buried 6ft under

[aintforever]

If I was anywhere in the world and had a gun and believed that someone was just about to shoot me, war zone or not,

I would shoot them first, and deal with the consequences after.

I least I would still be around to deal with it.

 

That's probably the line of thought of the "insurgents/terrorists" in Iraq.

 

Except they have more justification as it's their country.

[Micky]

this is also true..

 

back in the day when I ever had to do armed sentery duties..we were trained to use minimum force.. IE, if someone comes at you with a bat, you cant shoot them but you can use your casco baton to "defend" yourself within reason

 

if someone pulls a gun on you or other in your vicinity you shoot them with the sole aim of killing them..no mistake.

 

it is better to be alive and deal with the afters than be buried 6ft under

 

Ummmm partly agree (you obviously studied your 'Yellow Card' closely). But your reasoning doesn't allow for, if a guy comes at you with a 35mm camera you can take him out with an Apache gunship.

 

I didn't see that bit in my 'Rules of Engagement', did you?

 

P.S. Intersting debate, but wonder how much of it sits under the Geneva Convention - or don't we follow such guidelines anymore?

[View From The Top]

Ummmm partly agree (you obviously studied your 'Yellow Card' closely). But your reasoning doesn't allow for, if a guy comes at you with a 35mm camera you can take him out with an Apache gunship.

 

I didn't see that bit in my 'Rules of Engagement', did you?

 

 

I'm pretty sure it wasn't on my RoE card, even in pompey!

[Thedelldays]

Ummmm partly agree (you obviously studied your 'Yellow Card' closely). But your reasoning doesn't allow for, if a guy comes at you with a 35mm camera you can take him out with an Apache gunship.

 

I didn't see that bit in my 'Rules of Engagement', did you?

 

P.S. Intersting debate, but wonder how much of it sits under the Geneva Convention - or don't we follow such guidelines anymore?

no..but can you tell from an apache gunship the difference between a telescoping camera to a rocket launcher..?

 

looked pretty hard to me..

 

The answer is..I dont know...I have never sat in an apache gunship that at any second could be blown out of the sky and had to look through a camera to see if someone crouching behind a wall or a fence is carrying a camera or a rocket launcher..

 

a question that can never be fully answered..

 

do you wait if when he points the thing at you to see if he takes pictures, or kills you..?

 

just for info..there is no such thing as a yellow card or anything like that anymore..JSP 385 is long gone...things have changed (and im sure they will change again one day)

 

the whole thing was disgusting, I agree...

Edited 6 April, 2010 by Thedelldays

[Micky]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't on my RoE card, even in pompey!

 

I always seem to misplace mine when I go there and work on the principle that even if they look at me they are 'fair game'. Unfortunately I never carry hardware these days....!!!!

[Micky]

no..but can you tell from an apache gunship the difference between a telescoping camera to a rocket launcher..?

 

looked pretty hard to me..

 

The answer is..I dont know...I have never sat in an apache gunship that at any second could be blown out of the sky and had to look through a camera to see if someone crouching behind a wall or a fence is carrying a camera or a rocket launcher..

 

a question that can never be fully answered..

 

do you wait if when he points the thing at you to see if he takes pictures, or kills you..?

 

just for info..there is no such thing as a yellow card or anything like that anymore..JSP 385 is long gone...things have changed (and im sure they will change again one day)

 

The point is though TDD that if you don't identify an RPG you don't fire. From the video that I saw there were civies that posed no threat and it was very difficult to substantiate whether any of them were armed. Certainly the guy in the van appeared to being doing nothing more than trying to evacuate a wounded man - yet they fired upon them.

 

Imagine what would have happened if a Brit or US medic suffered the same fate.... oh look, back to the GC again, but you get my point - it would be splashed all over the mainstream news.

 

As ex and serving military people, we know that we are going to get into some sh itpits - but it is not an excuse to let the lead fly and worry about it later - even in war there are rules and responsibilities that we have to observe.

 

Yes they were providing air cover for the ground forces, but those forces were not in the immediate vicinity, and were in no danger. From the video I have seen - this stinks bad.

[Thedelldays]

agree with you there micky

 

I was not defending the helo pilots, just (trying) looking at it from their place..

it was terrible and sickening..

[Guided Missile]

I really don't find the video that surprising, in the circumstances in Iraq back in 2007. Neither do I find it surprising that there is a simultaneous outpouring of anti-American, anti-war, anti-military and self righteous indignation on this site.

 

When terrorism hit our capital in 2005, our metropolitan police force had a shoot to kill practice which led to the Jean Charles de Menezes killing. The US hardly has a monopoly on trigger happy killing of innocent civilians.

 

Sh !t happens...

Edited 6 April, 2010 by Guided Missile

[View From The Top]

I really don't find the video that surprising, in the circumstances in Iraq back in 2007. Neither do I find it surprising that there is a simultaneous outpouring of anti-American, anti-war, anti-military and self righteous indignation on this site.

 

Considering a number of posters are in or have been in HM Forces and have also seen active service in combats zones I would suggest the thread is hardly ani-military.

[View From The Top]

I wonder if the Apache crew were regular or National Guard?

[saintkiptanui]

I think I know why many people dislike you ginger balls (robsk) You are one of those people who are always right and it's your opinion or no opinion, typical stuck up liberal attitude, similar to the pro-Lowes from a bygone era.

[Viking Warrior]

Imagine what would have happened if a Brit or US medic suffered the same fate.... oh look,

 

Trouble is Micky the iraqis or insurgents don't recognise the red x under the geneva convention. They blew up an ambulance with a medic inside killed the medic and driver to a point they were unrecognisable We lost more than one medic over there despite them wearing the red cross armband etc. That was a rocket launcher and not a telescopic lens and also why were they hiding behind a wall in a crouching position , you wouldnt need to do that with a camera if you had nothing to hide unless they were on some counter surveillance exercise.

 

I never hear the outcrys from our liberal minded people on here when we see al queda or insurgents openly displaying their videos of their mutilations of innocent woman and children, beheadings and bombing etc.

 

I have seen far worse pictures of their atrocities than the apache ones.

two wrongs dont make a right but at least balance the argument

[Robsk II]

That's right. Most people on serious interweb threads are entirely without strong opinions, after all. Frankly, though, I would genuinely assume many posters on here are dicks anyway, and would not seek nor welcome their approval. Convenient.

[Guided Missile]

Considering a number of posters are in or have been in HM Forces and have also seen active service in combats zones I would suggest the thread is hardly ani-military.

 

+1.

 

Disgraceful acts by US military, what it has to do with the party in power I don't know! I appreciate that people feel ashamed that Britain is associated in this 'war' (myself included) butthis act has nothing to do with Labour.

 

HTH

[View From The Top]

Imagine what would have happened if a Brit or US medic suffered the same fate.... oh look,

 

Trouble is Micky the iraqis or insurgents don't recognise the red x under the geneva convention. They blew up an ambulance with a medic inside killed the medic and driver to a point they were unrecognisable We lost more than one medic over there despite them wearing the red cross armband etc. That was a rocket launcher and not a telescopic lens and also why were they hiding behind a wall in a crouching position , you wouldnt need to do that with a camera if you had nothing to hide unless they were on some counter surveillance exercise.

 

I never hear the outcrys from our liberal minded people on here when we see al queda or insurgents openly displaying their videos of their mutilations of innocent woman and children, beheadings and bombing etc.

 

I have seen far worse pictures of their atrocities than the apache ones.

two wrongs dont make a right but at least balance the argument

 

Actually it's been confirmed by the US military that it was a camera. Have a read of the Washington Post or NY Times.

[sadoldgit]

I really don't find the video that surprising, in the circumstances in Iraq back in 2007. Neither do I find it surprising that there is a simultaneous outpouring of anti-American, anti-war, anti-military and self righteous indignation on this site.

 

When terrorism hit our capital in 2005, our metropolitan police force had a shoot to kill practice which led to the Jean Charles de Menezes killing. The US hardly has a monopoly on trigger happy killing of innocent civilians.

 

Sh !t happens...

 

I think there is a big difference John. Yes it happens elsewhere, but not with the zeal, glee and frequency with which the Americans seem to dish it out. There was genuine shock when de Menezes was killed but whenever news of another American episode leaks out no one is surprised. It has been going on right back to the conflict with the Native Americans. In one massacre (it may have been Wounded Knee) they actually surrounded the NAs and opened fire, killing many of their own in the crossfire!!!

[View From The Top]

HTH

 

So one from our Marxist teacher friend?

 

Yep, I can see the rabid anti-militarism in the whole thread.

 

Oh.

[Viking Warrior]

Veiw from the top I will check out your info re comfirmed by us military I agree they can be gung ho christ they have hit UK forces in the past. Who can forget the Op Granby incident when the RRF got hit

[View From The Top]

Veiw from the top I will check out your info re comfirmed by us military I agree they can be gung ho christ they have hit UK forces in the past. Who can forget the Op Granby incident when the RRF got hit

 

Exactly.

 

They were National Guard pilots IIRC that's why I'd be interested to know about the Apache crews.

[Saint Without a Halo]

If I was anywhere in the world and had a gun and believed that someone was just about to shoot me, war zone or not,

I would shoot them first, and deal with the consequences after.

I least I would still be around to deal with it.

 

True if you really believe a man with a camera and people in a van are a threat to an Apache helicopter gunship.

[swannymere]

I wonder if the Apache crew were regular or National Guard?

 

That's what i was thinking, National Guard = Weekend Warrior

[Redondo Saint]

Point very well made. Without a war going on the US would probably be even worst off due to redundancies etc etc.

 

Not true at all.

 

Every major country has a "Lockheed Martin" type company. The French and German manufacturers are very successful, as indeed the UK is too.

 

The cost of the war is a significant burden to the US economy and in no way can be looked at as a financial benefit.

[Thedelldays]

True if you really believe a man with a camera and people in a van are a threat to an Apache helicopter gunship.

I remember the fuss when armed police shot dead a man with a chair leg..I think it was in london

 

the armed police were called out and they took the chair leg to be a gun and shot him dead....

 

they did not know but he was acting in a way that they thought it was a gun...

 

was that right or wrong..? or does a copper have to offer himself to be shot at first before they confirm if it is a gun or not..?

 

the guy crouching down behind walls, at the time when people were launching rockets from anyway at US servicemen..he (in the helo) was probably right to "shoot to kill"..

 

however, the mass killing that also went on was not OK

[Saint Without a Halo]

I think there is a big difference John. Yes it happens elsewhere, but not with the zeal, glee and frequency with which the Americans seem to dish it out. There was genuine shock when de Menezes was killed but whenever news of another American episode leaks out no one is surprised. It has been going on right back to the conflict with the Native Americans. In one massacre (it may have been Wounded Knee) they actually surrounded the NAs and opened fire, killing many of their own in the crossfire!!!

 

It is killings such these that creates and feeds terrorism! the only answer to terrorism is education jobs and reasons to want to live! War and bombs create 100 more people willing to undertake terrorist acts for every 10 they kill especially when those caught up in the violence like here are largely innocent!

[Saint Without a Halo]

I remember the fuss when armed police shot dead a man with a chair leg..I think it was in london

 

the armed police were called out and they took the chair leg to be a gun and shot him dead....

 

they did not know but he was acting in a way that they thought it was a gun...

 

was that right or wrong..? or does a copper have to offer himself to be shot at first before they confirm if it is a gun or not..?

 

the guy crouching down behind walls, at the time when people were launching rockets from anyway at US servicemen..he (in the helo) was probably right to "shoot to kill"..

 

however, the mass killing that also went on was not OK

 

Easy to say here but I would like you to explain that to the family of the victim who was a reporter working legally for a western news agency! also why did the US go on insisting they had killed insurgents and why was the video kept under wraps?

[Micky]

Imagine what would have happened if a Brit or US medic suffered the same fate.... oh look,

 

Trouble is Micky the iraqis or insurgents don't recognise the red x under the geneva convention. They blew up an ambulance with a medic inside killed the medic and driver to a point they were unrecognisable We lost more than one medic over there despite them wearing the red cross armband etc. That was a rocket launcher and not a telescopic lens and also why were they hiding behind a wall in a crouching position , you wouldnt need to do that with a camera if you had nothing to hide unless they were on some counter surveillance exercise.

 

I never hear the outcrys from our liberal minded people on here when we see al queda or insurgents openly displaying their videos of their mutilations of innocent woman and children, beheadings and bombing etc.

 

I have seen far worse pictures of their atrocities than the apache ones.

two wrongs dont make a right but at least balance the argument

 

VW I understand that not all nations will conduct business in line with the GC - however, believe it or not wars actually have rules for a reason. You won't find too many British military commanders who want to incur civcas - it gains nothing, and if anything becomes a burden on already stretched resources.

 

Still unconvinced about the RPG, and even if they saw one they didn't have to engage - especially as there were civilians in the area that were not armed. All they had to do was withdraw, let the ground troops check it out and call for Air Support if they came under fire.

 

This has nothing to do with being liberal minded - I have seen this sh it first hand in the FI, NI, the Gulf and Bosnia and believe me when kids are involved it is just the worst you can imagine.

 

As somebody (GM I think) said earlier - in war sh it happens, and he is right - but this is not a case of accidental civcas as far as I am concerned, and the sh it didn't, in this case, need to happen.

[exit2]

Its all propaganda at the end of the day. Live Leeks etc have been posting these video clips for years know, and if you look through them they show **** from both sides. As for the political view about Labour etc on this thread and the general election do you honestly thing if we had a different goverment things would be different? The answer is NO.

 

What every Goverment was in place we would have gone to war

What every Goverment was in place we would have been in a recession

What every Goverment was in place we get ****ed over

[Thedelldays]

Easy to say here but I would like you to explain that to the family of the victim who was a reporter working legally for a western news agency! also why did the US go on insisting they had killed insurgents and why was the video kept under wraps?

sorry. but they had no idea who he was or what he had in his had whilst hiding behind a wall...(the was terrible, i agree)

 

easy to say that whilst we are sat here talking about it years after..at the time, when people are being blown up daily by all sides, you probably are cold hearted enough NOT to think about someones family...

[sotonist]

Actually it's been confirmed by the US military that it was a camera. Have a read of the Washington Post or NY Times.

 

there is a certain element of darwin award for that guy though. oh look pretty helichopper, i will take a picture with my vaguely anti-helichopper gun looking type thing.

 

admittedly he brought about seven other people with him to accept the award.

[Saint Without a Halo]

So they made a MISTAKE then why compound it by killing 15 others and people trying to rescue the wounded in a van! why try to hide the truth, why pretend they are all insurgents why hide the evidence etc. surely best to own up!

 

 

The point I am making is by behaving in a n unlawful and evasive way, by showing glee at unmitigated and unjustified violence all the relatives and friends of the dead will now hold resentment against the west when once they may have had an affinity with it (especially the reuters employees) and as such all that happens is we create more enemies more terrorists more wars and more killings. This is now a great propoganda coup for terrorist recruitment showing that we believe in law and order and cpompensation only for a select few!

 

You can never bomb your way to success! So what is it they are trying to do in Iraq anyway!

[bridge too far]

there is a certain element of darwin award for that guy though. oh look pretty helichopper, i will take a picture with my vaguely anti-helichopper gun looking type thing.

 

admittedly he brought about seven other people with him to accept the award.

 

Err - it was his job. He was a highly respected war journalist.

[dune]

Piloting a helicopter gunship must be one of the best jobs in the world. I remember a few years back when Israel used to send them into gaza etc and i always thought "that's the job for me".

[View From The Top]

Piloting a helicopter gunship must be one of the best jobs in the world. I remember a few years back when Israel used to send them into gaza etc and i always thought "that's the job for me".

 

Thankfully your too thick to qualify.

 

Still, Burger King suits you.

Edited 6 April, 2010 by View From The Top
Typo that even thick cvnts like Dune could spot.

[dune]

You can never bomb your way to success! So what is it they are trying to do in Iraq anyway!

 

Not true, you can bomb your way to success, but not in modern politically correct wars where the objectives are so complicated.

[Saint Without a Halo]

no..but can you tell from an apache gunship the difference between a telescoping camera to a rocket launcher..?

 

looked pretty hard to me..

 

The answer is..I dont know...I have never sat in an apache gunship that at any second could be blown out of the sky and had to look through a camera to see if someone crouching behind a wall or a fence is carrying a camera or a rocket launcher..

 

a question that can never be fully answered..

 

do you wait if when he points the thing at you to see if he takes pictures, or kills you..?

 

just for info..there is no such thing as a yellow card or anything like that anymore..JSP 385 is long gone...things have changed (and im sure they will change again one day)

 

the whole thing was disgusting, I agree...

 

Where does the reporter point the camera at the Helicopter? The helicopters where a long way a way and no body on the ground was even aware of their presence and there was certainly no threat perceived or otherwise to the helicopters!

[dune]

Thankfully your too thick to qualify.

 

Still, Burger Ling suits you.

 

ha ha dopey.

[View From The Top]

ha ha dopey.

 

Oh noes. Typo.

 

Still, I can correct that, you'll still be a thick cvnt.

[dune]

Oh noes. Typo.

 

Still, I can correct that, you'll still be a thick cvnt.

 

Give it a rest. You make yourself look sad enough with your internet hardman exchanges with Derry.

[Saint Without a Halo]

Not true, you can bomb your way to success, but not in modern politically correct wars where the objectives are so complicated.

 

So in what recent war have we bombed are way to success?

 

The claim is this war was to

 

Eliminate weapons of mass destruction NONE FOUND SO FAR

Remove the threat of Saddam HE WAS STRUGGLING TO CONTROL HIS

OWN COUNTRY AND BLED DRY BY SANCTIONS

To make the world a safer place IS IT SAFER NOW?

To get to the planners of the twin towers NO EVIDENCE IRAQ WAS INVOLVED

To weaken Al Qaeda NOW PRESENT IN IRAQ WHEN PREVIOUSLY

ABSENT

To stop the killing in Iraq MORE DEAD SINCE LIBERATION THAN BEFORE

 

All that has happened is their is more poverty more death more divide and more misery and certainly more resentment and more anger at America and the West all the things we are trying to stop

 

 

So have we bombed are way to success in Iraq even in Afghanistan? I for one think not!

What was so politically correct about this war and please tell me what the objectives were as I am cynically inclined to believe they were about oil and profits for the few at the expense of everyone else hardly complicated me thinks!!

Edited 6 April, 2010 by Saint Without a Halo

[dune]

So in what recent war have we bombed are way to success?

 

Not recently, i'd say the last time was the falklands when our superior fire power won the day.

 

n.b The term "bombed our way to success" i consider to be a general term for millitary action as oposed to a mix of that and diplomacy. If you take it litterally then i apologise for not making my position on this clear in the previous post.