Pardews real record

[OldNick]

It is not the defeats alone that is hurting us. It is us having a manager who leaves his best options either on the bench or at home when we need them. Pardew has possibly cost us enough to make the play offs comfortably.

 

All teams can lose a game but there is losing because your opponent played well and losing because you failed to play at all.

It always amuses me that the fans players when not selected will play a blinder and be the difference. You are not a manager and it is only opinion that you believe he has not picked the best team. That is football, look at the threads when we choose what team to put out and there are loads of different teams selected.

Last sunday, due to AP's guidance we had a wonderful day at Wembley and tasted winning something.

After supporting Saints for over 40 years I have seen us win the FA cup, the Daily Express five a side tournemont (on Sportsnight with Coleman)..oh promotion (as runners up) and now the JPT so excuse me for being defensive of the manager who gave me that wonderful moment.

[trombonist1]

Up to the 5th of december we gained 32 points from 20 games (8 wins, 8 draws and 4 losses) equalling 1.6pts per game. Since then, we have gained 32 points from 18 games (9 wins, 5 draws and 4 losses) equalling 1.8pts per game.

 

This proves that despite the dissapointing midweek performances, we have not only won more games (50% compared to 40%), but have also gained an average of 0.2 points per game than before the 5/12/09.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i think Pardew has improved the team.

[Supersubpuckett]

I wouldn't want AP to go as I think he's done a great job and is a talented manager - however one observation is that we came down with Norwich, had a similar start to the season but they are 18 pts ahead of us (excluding the deduction). Surely they should be our yardstick in which case means we have under performed - but no reason to get rid of him.

 

We have the best resources in the league so expectations are high but as anyone who manages a team of people will know, it doesn't matter how good they are team spirit counts for a lot and with so many new faces in two separate time periods it would have been a challenge to build this quickly enough to maintain consistency. (apologies for lack of comma's etc).

[Psycrow]

It is fact. You might not like the truth but the results we have got since December have not progressed us. It's alright for you and others to give excuses about the pre season and the 10 point penalty - all valid, but i'm giving the REAL statistics for a period when these excuses stopped washing.

 

Well if you're going to look at only 1 statistic that suits your own agenda you can prove anything...

 

BUT... let me take the dates YOU brought up and look at them.

 

Today, we have a total of 64 points from 38 games played. An average of 1.6842 points per game.

 

On the 5th December we had a total of 32 points from 20 games played. An average of 1.6 points per game.

 

Now that seems like progress to me!.. and imagine, its in the exact same "period when these excuses stopped washing".

 

You ****.

[Dig Dig]

It always amuses me that the fans players when not selected will play a blinder and be the difference. You are not a manager and it is only opinion that you believe he has not picked the best team. That is football, look at the threads when we choose what team to put out and there are loads of different teams selected.

Last sunday, due to AP's guidance we had a wonderful day at Wembley and tasted winning something.

After supporting Saints for over 40 years I have seen us win the FA cup, the Daily Express five a side tournemont (on Sportsnight with Coleman)..oh promotion (as runners up) and now the JPT so excuse me for being defensive of the manager who gave me that wonderful moment.

 

Spot on Nick. For me AP's team selection is rarely a problem. I too find it amusing how some out there seem to have a crystal ball which tells them what would have happened if a different team/formation was used.

 

How about giving him credit for 56% of the games in which we have won under him? Not bad for someone who supposedly leaves his best players at home or on the bench.

[dune]

Well if you're going to look at only 1 statistic that suits your own agenda you can prove anything...

 

BUT... let me take the dates YOU brought up and look at them.

 

Today, we have a total of 64 points from 38 games played. An average of 1.6842 points per game.

 

On the 5th December we had a total of 32 points from 20 games played. An average of 1.6 points per game.

 

Now that seems like progress to me!.. and imagine, its in the exact same "period when these excuses stopped washing".

 

You ****.

 

Those figures point to a lack of progress. In our first 10 league games our record was WON 1 DREW 6 LOST 3. In others words poor but excuseable given the circumstances. The 10 games after this our record was superb - WON 7 DREW 2 LOST 1. Since then we've gone backwards and not progressed hence we've made up no ground on the play-off places.

[up and away]

Is it not worth noting that this is the hardest league one has been for 3/4 years? The league doesn't lie, etc. Just look at points totals for the last couple of years.

 

Ask any league 1 manager who has the best team / squad and Leeds don't even get a mention. Just look at the spending differential Saints have over other teams, it is totally massive, unbelievable. Most of those top 8 teams are not even worthy of mention, strung together with freebies, loans and non league pickups. If you cannot buy your way out of this league, you will be stuck in the CCC forever.

 

The problem has never been about other teams, it has been about our performances dropping off a cliff. There have been what? one well done in defeat, the rest we have just presented our arse to them and invited them over. Yes we have played some sublime football now and again, the rest of the time we are no where to be found.

 

If you think this league is hard, you have a ****ing shock coming to you when we do get into the CCC.

[Psycrow]

Those figures point to a lack of progress. In our first 10 league games our record was WON 1 DREW 6 LOST 3. In others words poor but excuseable given the circumstances. The 10 games after this our record was superb - WON 7 DREW 2 LOST 1. Since then we've gone backwards and not progressed hence we've made up no ground on the play-off places.

 

How on earth do figures that indiciate and INCREASE in the number of points per game indicate a lack of progress?

 

Your random choosing of stats to suit your argument are pointless. In our first 4 games in march our record was WON 2 LOST 2. Since then, the following four games show a record of WON 3 DREW 1. Fantastic progress!!! That's more than a 50% improvement!!!!

 

If you're idea of a lack of progress is not keeping up a fantastic run and going into any kind of slump, then you don't just know **** all about football, you're simply deluded.

[ponto1963]

But didn't we win a cup in the period you're talking about?

 

We've also played in a lot of other cup games in the period we're talking about.

 

5th round of the FA cup, JPT winners (did you enjoy the trip to Wembley? I did) and a top 10 finish in the league, what a fantastic season it's been, thanks Mr Pardew (and others, of course).

 

Agreed. Good season :-)

[dune]

How on earth do figures that indiciate and INCREASE in the number of points per game indicate a lack of progress?

 

Your random choosing of stats to suit your argument are pointless. In our first 4 games in march our record was WON 2 LOST 2. Since then, the following four games show a record of WON 3 DREW 1. Fantastic progress!!! That's more than a 50% improvement!!!!

 

If you're idea of a lack of progress is not keeping up a fantastic run and going into any kind of slump, then you don't just know **** all about football, you're simply deluded.

 

How is it random to disect the season into the first half versus the second half and then dividing the first period in two? I'm hardly cherry picking stats am I.

 

The first 10 games followed the turbulent summer period so surely highlighting the difference between those games and the next 10 is a perfect reasonable thing to do. And when you comapre the performance in the second batch of 10 games AP had got the team firing on all cylinders.

 

However since then we have lost our way and we have declined. You cannot argue with FACTS.

[VectisSaint]

In truth there are not really many suggesting that AP should go, it would be quite scandalous for AP to be sacked now. But that doesn't mean he is above criticism. Last night was a case in point with a poor selection and poor substitution decision-making - why on earth was Barnard on the bench? Swindon away near the start of the season also showed that on occassions AP seems to lack the imagination at times to change the game by making switches. We are also inconsistent, very good one game, and hopeless another. We also seem to have a tendency to start some games slowly rather than going for the throat early on. There is something still not quite right, which I can't put my finger on, but I'm confident that with a proper pre-season and a couple of quality signings, we will be very strong next season and will be fighting for the top spot, not the play-offs. We have clearly improved over the season, there is a swagger and confidence on occassions that shows that most of the 1st team have got the right idea, but that confidence is still a bit fragile, and on other occassions can seem like over confidence.

[Psycrow]

How is it random to disect the season into the first half versus the second half and then dividing the first period in two? I'm hardly cherry picking stats am I.

 

The first 10 games followed the turbulent summer period so surely highlighting the difference between those games and the next 10 is a perfect reasonable thing to do. And when you comapre the performance in the second batch of 10 games AP had got the team firing on all cylinders.

 

However since then we have lost our way and we have declined. You cannot argue with FACTS.

 

I disproved your FACT about the 2 halfs of the season. We have won more points per game since Dec 5th than we did before hand. You can't argue with that FACT.

 

The first 10 games of the season was poor, and then we went on a great run. To say that the whole season has gone down hill because that great run didn't continue is deluded. I mean there's a period in the season were we won 6 games in a row. By your logic Pardew should never be allowed to lose a game again after that under punishment of the sack.

 

I don't place any more credence in my FACTS than I do yours. My FACTS are simply to point out how absolutely arbitrary and pointless the **** your spouting is.

[gaz]

Statistics can be manipulated to prove any point.

[Dig Dig]

How is it random to disect the season into the first half versus the second half and then dividing the first period in two? I'm hardly cherry picking stats am I.

 

The first 10 games followed the turbulent summer period so surely highlighting the difference between those games and the next 10 is a perfect reasonable thing to do. And when you comapre the performance in the second batch of 10 games AP had got the team firing on all cylinders.

 

However since then we have lost our way and we have declined. You cannot argue with FACTS.

 

 

Why did you stop at dividing the first half in two? Your miss mash of "stats" and "facts" really isn't helping in proving your point at all.

 

You may well believe that we are in some kind of decline but I have seen enough evidence to suggest that we are a team on the up and one that will be more than capable of getting us out of this league.

 

Yes it's frustrating that we havn't ceased some opportunities to give the play-offs a good go but afer today we still have a chance. And what an achievment it would be if we made it!

[Psycrow]

Statistics can be manipulated to prove any point.

 

My point exactly

[70's Mike]

the main FACT is that we are a better football club today than we were 12 months ago

REAL PROGRESS

[ALWAYS_SFC]

On the 5th December we were 9 points off the playoffs.

 

Today we are 11 points off the playoffs.

 

You can say what you like but the table doesn't lie and Pardew has not performed over the past 4 months.

 

To be worse off now than we were back in December is not good enough.

 

All Pardew fault,never the players is it...ffs.

 

The team including the manager have not got ideal results,not just the manager...

[RobM]

I can see a time where Pardew quits or gets sacked, with a lack of fan support being part of the reason. We will appoint somebody else, they too will divide the fanbase and they wont improve on the average points per game of this season. So the fans will get on their back, they will quit or get sacked and we start the process again.

 

If I had the enthusiasm to do so, I'd go back and look at what people who are claiming AP should be sacked were saying at the start of the season. Back then, almost all fans agreed that anything other than survival this season would be a bonus. We spent more money than we expected and we have therefore achieved more than anybody expected.

 

Next season is the one to judge. When we have the team prepared, a settled squad who know each other and a full preseason. If AP doesn't deliver, he should leave. If he does, we should all respect that.

[dune]

I disproved your FACT about the 2 halfs of the season. We have won more points per game since Dec 5th than we did before hand. You can't argue with that FACT.

 

The first 10 games of the season was poor, and then we went on a great run. To say that the whole season has gone down hill because that great run didn't continue is deluded. I mean there's a period in the season were we won 6 games in a row. By your logic Pardew should never be allowed to lose a game again after that under punishment of the sack.

 

I don't place any more credence in my FACTS than I do yours. My FACTS are simply to point out how absolutely arbitrary and pointless the **** your spouting is.

 

You have disproved nothing. Taking the first 10 games out of the equation the following 10 games showed us playing great attacking football and winning games consistently. Then we slumped and have bumped along in the same vein ever since. We have not improved since the beginning of December compared to the previous 20 games and if you factor out the first 10 games we have gone backwards. You might not like it, i certainly don't, but this is the reality of our season.

[Psycrow]

You have disproved nothing. Taking the first 10 games out of the equation the following 10 games showed us playing great attacking football and winning games consistently. Then we slumped and have bumped along in the same vein ever since. We have not improved since the beginning of December compared to the previous 20 games and if you factor out the first 10 games we have gone backwards. You might not like it, i certainly don't, but this is the reality of our season.

 

I might not like it? I don't mind at all. Yes I'd like us to make the playoffs, but I'm also not mentally disturbed, so I can see the club is on the right track and in the right hands.

 

Its very easy to pick and choose the games you want to include in your statistics. In my stats I think I'll take the second 10 games "out of the equation" as I can remember at the time a lot of the people on this board saying "We just need one win for confidence and then we'll go on a run". So that run was obviously artificial and shouldn't be included in any stats regarding performance.

 

So well done Mr. Pardew. The team has come on brilliantly since the first 10 games of the season.

[RobM]

You have disproved nothing. Taking the first 10 games out of the equation the following 10 games showed us playing great attacking football and winning games consistently. Then we slumped and have bumped along in the same vein ever since. We have not improved since the beginning of December compared to the previous 20 games and if you factor out the first 10 games we have gone backwards. You might not like it, i certainly don't, but this is the reality of our season.

 

Are we all allowed to take away 10 games to prove a point?

[dune]

Are we all allowed to take away 10 games to prove a point?

 

I think it's reasonable to put the initial bad results down to a lack of a pre-season don't you?

[Psycrow]

I think it's reasonable to put the initial bad results down to a lack of a pre-season don't you?

 

No.

[dune]

No.

 

So what reason do you give for our poor start?

[Psycrow]

So what reason do you give for our poor start?

 

The same reason as you, but I don't think they can just be put aside when assessing Pardew's performance. In fact, they should make up a large part of it

[JackFrost]

On the 5th December we were 9 points off the playoffs.

 

Today we are 11 points off the playoffs.

 

You can say what you like but the table doesn't lie and Pardew has not performed over the past 4 months.

 

To be worse off now than we were back in December is not good enough.

 

And???

 

What do you or Cortese want to do about it?

 

1) Get behind the players and AP for the rest of this and next season and see where we are then?

 

2) Cortese to start saying things again and causing more disruption behind the scenes?

 

3) Sack Pardew and go through the whole 'one step forward, 10 steps back managerial merry go round' again, and sinking us even lower?

 

You got any better ideas?

 

I'm not referring to you directly here, but it has amused me for years how many of the people who bashed Lowe with the "so many managers in so many years" line (albeit justifiably), are the first to call for a manager's head when their not doing an outstanding job.

[dune]

The same reason as you, but I don't think they can just be put aside when assessing Pardew's performance. In fact, they should make up a large part of it

 

I see. So when you said "No" you really meant "Yes".

[RobM]

I think it's reasonable to put the initial bad results down to a lack of a pre-season don't you?

 

Sure, can we do the same and remove some of the later bad results too? It would really make things look much better.

 

Personally, I judge AP based on what he had, what he changed and what he achieved over an entire season. He had to work with the squad as it was during those 10 games, so why shouldn't it be included? It's not like he picked his squad before coming here... he came here with the squad we had and didn't have much time to assess and change things before the start of the season. But that's what he took on, so that's what he should be judged on. So often you hear people talking about how managers can get the best out of what they have, why shouldn't that count here?

 

If we had a couple of bad injuries this month, should we exclude those games also, as it is a similar situation where AP has little control over yet will certainly affect results.

[Psycrow]

I see. So when you said "No" you really meant "Yes".

 

No I didn't, because you're implication was that those 10 games be dismissed from the record for the point of proving your stats. More than an implication in previous posts

[wightman35]

Great comment! we are one point better off today than we were yesterday still with a game in hand over colchester & Bristol Rovers. Huddersfield & Mk Dons have harder run ins than us, we can still do the play offs even if it is a long shot. Pardew has made a few mistakes this season but has made a lot more progress than any of us thought 8 months ago! if we don't make it this season then we must next,You've got to remember we did not have a proper squad untill a quarter of the way through the season! Don't judge Pardew untill he has a full season, Pre-season with a full squad!!!!

Thank you Alan!!!

 

Agree with you. Invicta Saint was "spot on" with that Post.

Thanks AP.

[dune]

And???

 

What do you or Cortese want to do about it?

 

1) Get behind the players and AP for the rest of this and next season and see where we are then?

 

2) Cortese to start saying things again and causing more disruption behind the scenes?

 

3) Sack Pardew and go through the whole 'one step forward, 10 steps back managerial merry go round' again, and sinking us even lower?

 

You got any better ideas?

 

I'm not referring to you directly here, but it has amused me for years how many of the people who bashed Lowe with the "so many managers in so many years" line (albeit justifiably), are the first to call for a manager's head when their not doing an outstanding job.

 

I've already said i'd give Pardew next season and assess him on how we start. If we are not at or near the top early doors then get rid. I don't think we should mess about keeping him if he doesn't get his act together from the start.

[RobM]

I've already said i'd give Pardew next season and assess him on how we start. If we are not at or near the top early doors then get rid. I don't think we should mess about keeping him if he doesn't get his act together from the start.

 

For the record then, how many games into a season is a fair judge of his and our performance?

[dune]

For the record then, how many games into a season is a fair judge of his and our performance?

 

Half a dozen.

[Psycrow]

Half a dozen.

 

And where should we be in the table after that 6 games?

[Dig Dig]

Half a dozen.

 

And then the next manager? Another half a dozen?

[Dig Dig]

And where should we be in the table after that 6 games?

 

We should be promoted by then Psycrow ffs

[RobM]

Half a dozen.

 

Seriously? Fair enough, that's your opinion, but I think it would be crazy to judge any club on 6 games. When have you ever known any Saints team to start a season well? And let's be fair, it's a little hypocritical to want to remove the first 10 games of this season from the record, yet only judge AP on the first 6 of next.

 

It's December for me. Early December though. That's a good few months of games, so any bad starts can be over come and any temporary good or bad spells will balance out. If we are consistently good enough, we will be at or near the top.

 

If we're not, somebody else should be brought in at the start of December so they have a few games to assess and make decisions on what action to take in the Jan transfer window.

 

But if we're in the top 5, AP should stay.

[dune]

And where should we be in the table after that 6 games?

 

The table doesn't really come into play at this time, but in terms of results a minimum of 11 points.

[RobM]

The table doesn't really come into play at this time, but in terms of results a minimum of 11 points.

 

So pretty much the same points per game as we have achieved since December then.

[Dig Dig]

The table doesn't really come into play at this time, but in terms of results a minimum of 11 points.

 

Buts thats only 1.8 points per game! Around the same points per game we have achieved since your golden days pre December 5th. Surely we would be continuing the "decline"

[JackFrost]

Half a dozen.

 

I'm so glad you are not our chairman

[dune]

So pretty much the same points per game as we have achieved since December then.

 

Yes. You could hardly sack him unless we start badly, but there's got to be improvement on this season in the following games.

[dune]

I'm so glad you are not our chairman

 

And i'm so glad Nicola Cortese is because i'm sure he won't accept mediocrity and inconsistency like some of you lot would.

[Psycrow]

Yes. You could hardly sack him unless we start badly, but there's got to be improvement on this season in the following games.

 

Keep digging, you're bound to get out of this sooner or later

[dune]

Keep digging, you're bound to get out of this sooner or later

 

I've got nothing to dig myself out of.

[SFC Forever]

Spot on Nick. For me AP's team selection is rarely a problem. I too find it amusing how some out there seem to have a crystal ball which tells them what would have happened if a different team/formation was used.

 

How about giving him credit for 56% of the games in which we have won under him? Not bad for someone who supposedly leaves his best players at home or on the bench.

 

I disproved your FACT about the 2 halfs of the season. We have won more points per game since Dec 5th than we did before hand. You can't argue with that FACT.

 

The first 10 games of the season was poor, and then we went on a great run. To say that the whole season has gone down hill because that great run didn't continue is deluded. I mean there's a period in the season were we won 6 games in a row. By your logic Pardew should never be allowed to lose a game again after that under punishment of the sack.

 

I don't place any more credence in my FACTS than I do yours. My FACTS are simply to point out how absolutely arbitrary and pointless the **** your spouting is.

 

You call people like him deluded but moan if someone says the same about you or the people like you who trust Pardew utterly.

 

I at no time have asked for Pardew to be removed. I would though, like to see him try attacking teams with our firepower in a way that suits our team better. I have followed our team since the days of Derek Reeves and have enjoyed(?) the ups and downs of life as a Saints fan.

 

I will still say what I feel and if you don't like it too bad.

 

I believe Alan Pardew has cost us points through his choice of players and poor substitutions. Alan is, unless you know different, like you(?) and me a human being. We all make mistakes and being in the spotlight as he is he will know where he stands. He is no more perfect than us just better informed, we are supposed to believe.

 

Nickh you talked disparagingly about me earlier as though you know me. I am not in your incrowd any more than you are in mine. You know absolutely nothing about me and I like it that way. So do not make a throw away remark about me unless you know me. Call me stupid or dumb for my beliefs as is the norm but do not say I have or have not done something when you do not know me.

[Psycrow]

I've got nothing to dig myself out of.

 

Except your acceptance next season of the so called mediocrity that we're accepting this season simply because you haven't thought out your own argument and are simply piggy backing on other people's opinions and calling them your own.

[Dig Dig]

You call people like him deluded but moan if someone says the same about you or the people like you who trust Pardew utterly.

 

I at no time have asked for Pardew to be removed. I would though, like to see him try attacking teams with our firepower in a way that suits our team better. I have followed our team since the days of Derek Reeves and have enjoyed(?) the ups and downs of life as a Saints fan.

 

I will still say what I feel and if you don't like it too bad.

 

I believe Alan Pardew has cost us points through his choice of players and poor substitutions. Alan is, unless you know different, like you(?) and me a human being. We all make mistakes and being in the spotlight as he is he will know where he stands. He is no more perfect than us just better informed, we are supposed to believe.

 

Nickh you talked disparagingly about me earlier as though you know me. I am not in your incrowd any more than you are in mine. You know absolutely nothing about me and I like it that way. So do not make a throw away remark about me unless you know me. Call me stupid or dumb for my beliefs as is the norm but do not say I have or have not done something when you do not know me.

 

You are stupid and dumb for your beliefs

[dune]

Except your acceptance next season of the so called mediocrity that we're accepting this season simply because you haven't thought out your own argument and are simply piggy backing on other people's opinions and calling them your own.

 

For the initial 6 games i think it's reasonable to expect a MINIMUM (that means more woould be nice) of 11 points. As for your other comment i've ignored the name calling from you up unitl now, but i cannot ignore your final comment. Can you justify this "piggy backing on other peoples opinions" remark as i've not got the fogiest what you're on about.

[dockland Dave]

How is it random to disect the season into the first half versus the second half and then dividing the first period in two? I'm hardly cherry picking stats am I.

 

The first 10 games followed the turbulent summer period so surely highlighting the difference between those games and the next 10 is a perfect reasonable thing to do. And when you comapre the performance in the second batch of 10 games AP had got the team firing on all cylinders.

 

However since then we have lost our way and we have declined. You cannot argue with FACTS.

Please can you have some realisic expectations. In the summer we lost the two players in the squad who had any real sell on value due to admin. AP came in very late and attempted to assemble a team that could get us into safety. That work continued in the xmas transfer window. No manager can expect a team to gell straight away, and our team has been a little inconsistant, which in MHO is to be expected.

 

Teams such as Norwich, Leeds, Millwall and Charlton have basically the same squads as last year, and this has shown in their results.

 

i cant believe the short sighted views the likes of you have. 1 months ago we were close to going under. Please tell me how long did it take Sir Alex to get Man Utd performing when he got the job. How long did it take LM here at Saints. Please take a longer term perspective you idiot. The general consensus was that this season was about rebuilding, learning to win again and bringing the feel good factor back. AP has gone far beyond that bringing home the JP and reaching the last 16 of the cup. This team has shown on its day it can beat anyone, consistancy will come as they play together. if your only gage of success start supporting man utd or chelsea, or perhaps even barca.