Thank heavens the JPT journey is over this weekend

[Graffito]

Really looking forward to Sunday and a big celebration of the renaissance of our club and a win for the team. Then a surge towards the play offs.

[benjii]

I'm with Alpine on this. I went to the JPT games against my better judgement, and I loved the last minute equaliser against Norwich, but I'm struggling to get over excited about the Wembley final. I'm sure it will be a great day, but the painting competition is not a real final in my eyes and I'd even swap a win on Sunday for a defeat in the play offs.

 

Why?

[benjii]

I agree they should be immensely excited. Only a fool would argue its just another game.

 

But being distracted from other important and more immediate issues ? Yes, I have never been a professional player, so dont understand it.

 

But they weren't sufficiently distracted not to win the game, so it's really not a problem. There will only ever be one final in a cup. There will only ever be one game immediately before a final. We won it. So it's a moot point.

[View From The Top]

Keeping at least two attackers up defending corners and be totally positive.

 

100% agree.

 

It's nuts that we pull everyone back.

 

Never understood it.

[View From The Top]

Why?

 

It does seem very odd.

[derry]

If we want to create positive momentum from Wembley, we have to break the Pardew tendency for safety first, give it a right positive go and then take that forward every match. We have to give it our best shot to win every match, not just long ball to scrabble a few wins and fail in the end wishing we had given it everything. We might fail but we needn't look back if we do.

 

I happen to think that it is Pardew's negative approach with arguably the best squad in the division that is getting up Nicola Cortese's nose. It may well cost him his job if he doesn't go for it.

[benjii]

If we want to create positive momentum from Wembley, we have to break the Pardew tendency for safety first, give it a right positive go and then take that forward every match. We have to give it our best shot to win every match, not just long ball to scrabble a few wins and fail in the end wishing we had given it everything. We might fail but we needn't look back if we do.

 

I happen to think that it is Pardew's negative approach with arguably the best squad in the division that is getting up Nocola Cortese's nose. It may well cost him his job if he doesn't go for it.

 

I have no idea why you think Pardew has been negative, at least since we got our team settled anyway.

 

We have been playing with two out and out strikers and two wingers with licence to roam. Hammond is encouraged to get in the other team's box regularly. We have full-backs popping up in the six yard box to slot home tap-ins. It's hardly cattanacio.

 

On Sunday we will pick the team most likely to win the match based on who's available.

 

No doubt it will not be wide enough for you.

[Torres]

If we want to create positive momentum from Wembley, we have to break the Pardew tendency for safety first, give it a right positive go and then take that forward every match. We have to give it our best shot to win every match, not just long ball to scrabble a few wins and fail in the end wishing we had given it everything. We might fail but we needn't look back if we do.

 

I happen to think that it is Pardew's negative approach with arguably the best squad in the division that is getting up Nicola Cortese's nose. It may well cost him his job if he doesn't go for it.

 

Aren't we the second top scorers in this league?

[chrisobee]

Why?

 

That question I suggest is unanswerable, at least any sane answer !!

[benjii]

Aren't we the second top scorers in this league?

 

Unacceptable IMO. Dire and defensive.

 

We need width. Width and pace. Pace and width's what you need. And samba skills. And width and pace.

[derry]

I have no idea why you think Pardew has been negative, at least since we got our team settled anyway.

 

We have been playing with two out and out strikers and two wingers with licence to roam. Hammond is encouraged to get in the other team's box regularly. We have full-backs popping up in the six yard box to slot home tap-ins. It's hardly cattanacio.

 

On Sunday we will pick the team most likely to win the match based on who's available.

 

No doubt it will not be wide enough for you.

 

The two wide midfielders tuck in and play more like four central midfielders, because they only go to the touch line when the whole team shuttles across leaving the other wide man in the centre of the field. That is why we boot so many balls up front as there isn't the room to pass it around.

 

We were ludicrously narrow on Tuesday and were pulled all over the place, the same against Swindon and the majority of games under Pardew. It wasn't until the goal that Waigo and Puncheon spread out which opened up the back four and led to the goals. If Schneiderlin hadn't been injured and replaced by Wotton I think we would have got a few more goals.

 

With Wotton we were defending too deep and allowed the full back too much room to line up his shot. However the two wide men did a decent job. I would be happy with more of the same. Waigo/Lallana wide and Lambert and Connolly up front.

[derry]

Unacceptable IMO. Dire and defensive.

 

We need width. Width and pace. Pace and width's what you need. And samba skills. And width and pace.

 

I know for a fact that the wide midfielders are instructed to tuck in. That came from one of them. We don't need a samba or for that matter, sarcasm, we have the pace, we only need to give it the room to play and a lot of the time we don't. To understand that, you need to have a minimal understanding of what makes a team work and it is patently obvious you don't.

 

So with all the goals we still wouldn't be in the play off places without the points deduction. The dire narrow performances at Exeter, Millwall, Brentford, Wycombe, Tranmere etc and a lack of goals in those matches caused that.

[View From The Top]

I know for a fact that the wide midfielders are instructed to tuck in. That came from one of them. We don't need a samba or for that matter, sarcasm, we have the pace, we only need to give it the room to play and a lot of the time we don't. To understand that, you need to have a minimal understanding of what makes a team work and it is patently obvious you don't.

 

So with all the goals we still wouldn't be in the play off places without the points deduction. The dire narrow performances at Exeter, Millwall, Brentford, Wycombe, Tranmere etc and a lack of goals in those matches caused that.

 

As you are clearly The Oracle from Delphi, with a huge knowledge of professional football, you should clearly be the next Saints manager.

 

Damn it, England manager instead!

[Give it to Ron]

As you are clearly The Oracle from Delphi, with a huge knowledge of professional football, you should clearly be the next Saints manager.

 

Damn it, England manager instead!

 

Do you disagree with his assessment though.. I don't its spot on.

[derry]

As you are clearly The Oracle from Delphi, with a huge knowledge of professional football, you should clearly be the next Saints manager.

 

Damn it, England manager instead!

 

Only needs a rudimentary knowledge which I suppose is a bit better than no understanding at all. Pardew may well have a vast knowledge but allied to a fear of losing it isn't working.

[derry]

Do you disagree with his assessment though.. I don't its spot on.

 

Thanks.

[View From The Top]

Do you disagree with his assessment though.. I don't its spot on.

 

Derry often makes the assumption that wing play is always the answer.

 

There has been times this winter, away from home, where we've tried out and out wingplay and the narrowness of the pitch, Tranmere and Exeter, or the state of it, Exeter and WW, has made it impossible.

 

Derry fails to recorgnise that.

 

We'd all love to see dashing wingers hugging the touchlines at all times but it simply doesn't work.

 

I'm sure Derry can give examples of English clubs who have gained success with the model that he deems to be the only one that works.

[View From The Top]

Only needs a rudimentary knowledge which I suppose is a bit better than no understanding at all. Pardew may well have a vast knowledge but allied to a fear of losing it isn't working.

 

I think you should give Capello a call. Your skills are obviously in need this summer.

 

No doubt you'll be welcomed with open arms.

[JustMike]

I'm with Alpine on this. I went to the JPT games against my better judgement, and I loved the last minute equaliser against Norwich, but I'm struggling to get over excited about the Wembley final. I'm sure it will be a great day, but the painting competition is not a real final in my eyes and I'd even swap a win on Sunday for a defeat in the play offs.

 

i wouldnt! that would be a nightmare. Having managed to make the playoffs only to lose it! Id swap a win on sunday for a win in the playoffs, now thats better

[JustMike]

Only needs a rudimentary knowledge which I suppose is a bit better than no understanding at all. Pardew may well have a vast knowledge but allied to a fear of losing it isn't working.

 

so are you calling for his head?

[derry]

Derry often makes the assumption that wing play is always the answer.

 

There has been times this winter, away from home, where we've tried out and out wingplay and the narrowness of the pitch, Tranmere and Exeter, or the state of it, Exeter and WW, has made it impossible.

 

Derry fails to recorgnise that.

 

We'd all love to see dashing wingers hugging the touchlines at all times but it simply doesn't work.

 

I'm sure Derry can give examples of English clubs who have gained success with the model that he deems to be the only one that works.

Manchester Utd. When we play narrow we lump it up front, when we spread out we play football. It doesnt need Capello or Ferguson, Wilson gets it at Swindon, which is why they pulled us all over the place at SMS and why they are where they are and why we are where we are. But don't let the facts get in the way of the red and white striped mist that obscures the managers shortcomings.

[Weston Saint]

I am with Derry on this one. We have discussed it often enough with others and most seem to agree. Results prove it.

[derry]

so are you calling for his head?

 

I won't have to, he is going to have to convince Cortese he's the manager for next season and I don't think he has done that.

 

I'm not driven by results alone, I want to see teams playing decent football without a big emphasis on booting it long. I happen to think with the players we have got, we could play good football and do a lot better against the poorer sides, rather than trying to negate them by compaction.

[John B]

Unacceptable IMO. Dire and defensive.

 

We need width. Width and pace. Pace and width's what you need. And samba skills. And width and pace.

 

Hale and Pace perhaps:D upfront

[View From The Top]

Manchester Utd. When we play narrow we lump it up front, when we spread out we play football. It doesnt need Capello or Ferguson, Wilson gets it at Swindon, which is why they pulled us all over the place at SMS and why they are where they are and why we are where we are. But don't let the facts get in the way of the red and white striped mist that obscures the managers shortcomings.

 

Now take a deeeeeep breath and read what I said.

 

Away from home, on narrow or poor pitches, it hasn't worked.

 

Still, if you are to blinkered to recorgnise that it can't be done all of the time it's your look out.

[View From The Top]

I am with Derry on this one. We have discussed it often enough with others and most seem to agree. Results prove it.

 

Yeah, right, wingers hugging the touchlines all games is really the way forward, especially on crap, narrow winter pitches away from home.

 

Or prehaps your like Derry and think we can play the United way every week? :smt119

[Scudamore]

I just want the JPT journey to last forever

[doddisalegend]

Do you disagree with his assessment though.. I don't its spot on.

 

Yeah I do. Our goal difference suggests we are not a defensive team. We play 4-4-2 with wingers and two strikers hardly defensive. We don't go away and put 10 men behind the ball like a lot of teams in this division do. There are times when the players panic and revert to hoofing usual in the second half when we're losing. I've seen plenty of play down the wings this season Harding is very good at overlapping the winger and getting forward and semi was starting to do the same on the right before his injury.

[Thedelldays]

will people want us to go all and and defend the trophy next season..?

 

personally, I hope we show ALL the cups a complete lack of respect and save the first team for league games only

[View From The Top]

will people want us to go all and and defend the trophy next season..?

 

personally, I hope we show ALL the cups a complete lack of respect and save the first team for league games only

 

Very fair comment as I believe we all want the club to focus only on going up.

[derry]

Yeah, right, wingers hugging the touchlines all games is really the way forward, especially on crap, narrow winter pitches away from home.

 

Or prehaps your like Derry and think we can play the United way every week? :smt119

 

Nobody talks about wingers, what we are talking about is the wide midfielders not tucking in and allowing the opponents to compact, denying schneiderlin the room and options to pass the ball, then when we lose the ball, providing the room for them to counter attack us wide, which for example Swindon did.

 

The pitches aren't narrow, the best surfaces are out wide on the worst pitches as at Wycombe and Exeter, except for one patch of real soft stuff, we just chose to plod through the middle.

[View From The Top]

Nobody talks about wingers, what we are talking about is the wide midfielders not tucking in and allowing the opponents to compact, denying schneiderlin the room and options to pass the ball, then when we lose the ball, providing the room for them to counter attack us wide, which for example Swindon did.

 

The pitches aren't narrow, the best surfaces are out wide on the worst pitches as at Wycombe and Exeter, except for one patch of real soft stuff, we just chose to plod through the middle.

 

Exeter was liked a ploughed field on the flanks, especially the right as we looked.

 

Tranmere is the narrowest pitch I've seen in years.

 

Still, I'm sure you'll have us playing like United in no time.

[Window Cleaner]

Exeter was liked a ploughed field on the flanks, especially the right as we looked.

 

Tranmere is the narrowest pitch I've seen in years.

 

Still, I'm sure you'll have us playing like United in no time.

 

 

Anyway I would have thought that United's greatest attribute was the road roller like pressure that they put on defences (and midfields) by their continuous change of attacking formation.Kaleidoscope formation, that's what Utd play.

 

Anyway I don't know if you all follow continental football but Bayern Munich have complained to their FA about the state of Schalke's pitch. They say they keep it like that on purpose to slow the game down.

[John B]

Very fair comment as I believe we all want the club to focus only on going up.

 

I dont I quite liked this season loads of games good results plenty to be happy about

[View From The Top]

I dont I quite liked this season loads of games good results plenty to be happy about

 

Sorry, I meant next season I believe we'd like the club to be focused on going up and if it's at the expense of the cups then so be it.

 

This season has been great compared to recent years and Wembley is the cherry on the cake.

[Give it to Ron]

Exeter was liked a ploughed field on the flanks, especially the right as we looked.

 

Tranmere is the narrowest pitch I've seen in years.

 

Still, I'm sure you'll have us playing like United in no time.

 

My lad plays Saturday morning so don't get the chance to go away much but based on recent home games like Swindon and Hartlepool we did drag the wide midfielders in.

I am not suggesting we go back to the Paine/Sydenham era as its a totally different game now although what I would give for Big Ron again ;-).

The other night especially we never had any space or for our centre midfield to pass to - I lost count in the first half Morgan looked up ready to spray wide but had to turn back or short sideways as we had no outlet or we resort to aimless hoof to Lambert.

Teams come to St Marys and cram the centre - our first goal came from the first time Papa was actually wide and not through the centre - Hammond kept coming in the centre as well.

We beat Leeds and Huddersfield playing wide....why did we change that against Swindon???

 

I like Pardew...want him to stay but am getting a bit worried about some of his tactics in games. Harding is our best left back and attacking option - dont move him to the wrong side move the player you are bringing in.

Wotton or Perry could of even played right back against H'pool hardly world beaters - believe James is injured.

[Alanh]

Nobody talks about wingers, what we are talking about is the wide midfielders not tucking in and allowing the opponents to compact, denying schneiderlin the room and options to pass the ball, then when we lose the ball, providing the room for them to counter attack us wide, which for example Swindon did.

 

The pitches aren't narrow, the best surfaces are out wide on the worst pitches as at Wycombe and Exeter, except for one patch of real soft stuff, we just chose to plod through the middle.

 

I've seen Lallana and Puncheon receive the ball on the byline loads of time this season so to say that they don't provide width is nonsense. Neither of them are speed merchants so you'll rarely see them get a cross in from the byline, but to be honest you rarely see that from any team in this league and only rarely in the top flight as it's pretty common for full backs to be as fast as wingers these days.

 

Our wide midfielders provide variation thanks to their close control and their ability to come inside and play the killer through ball. If they were out and out wingers we would be one dimensional in our attacking play, which would be far more frustrating than what we have at the moment.

 

Other teams might get the better of us occasionally and Swindon managed it by double or triple marking Lallana and Puncheon every time they got the ball, and then capiltalising on the fact that Morgan and Hammond had poor games and controlling the centre of the park. i don't think that they were a particular threat down the wings all game.

[jam]

I dont I quite liked this season loads of games good results plenty to be happy about

 

The novelty value of being a big club and winning lots of games is all well and good but if we don't get promoted this or next season then there won't be much to be happy about at all.

[red&white56]

The sarcasm on here is pathetic.

 

Does anyone disagree with the statement :

 

no more JPT games = no more "distractions"

 

?????

 

I don't know about distracting the team but it's starting to distract me!!

[John B]

The novelty value of being a big club and winning lots of games is all well and good but if we don't get promoted this or next season then there won't be much to be happy about at all.

 

I have no real desire to get back to the Premiership I am quite happy going to St Mary's once a month to see teams I have never seen before a few beers a few goals

 

Not the continual fight to stay in the Premiership watching a few wins and paying an arm and a leg for a ticket.

[derry]

My lad plays Saturday morning so don't get the chance to go away much but based on recent home games like Swindon and Hartlepool we did drag the wide midfielders in.

I am not suggesting we go back to the Paine/Sydenham era as its a totally different game now although what I would give for Big Ron again ;-).

The other night especially we never had any space or for our centre midfield to pass to - I lost count in the first half Morgan looked up ready to spray wide but had to turn back or short sideways as we had no outlet or we resort to aimless hoof to Lambert.

Teams come to St Marys and cram the centre - our first goal came from the first time Papa was actually wide and not through the centre - Hammond kept coming in the centre as well.

We beat Leeds and Huddersfield playing wide....why did we change that against Swindon???

 

I like Pardew...want him to stay but am getting a bit worried about some of his tactics in games. Harding is our best left back and attacking option - dont move him to the wrong side move the player you are bringing in.

Wotton or Perry could of even played right back against H'pool hardly world beaters - believe James is injured.

 

What I've been saying and seeing all season. The trouble on here is lots of football fans but few with any real experience of playing or coaching. The ex players and coaches I talk to, all see this problem of narrowness restricting the passing options the same way we do. All decent teams have players on both touchlines simultaneously when in possession spreading the opposition and increasing the passing options. Good teams defend in to out and attack out to in but most on here just don't get it.

[John B]

What I've been saying and seeing all season. The trouble on here is lots of football fans but few with any real experience of playing or coaching. The ex players and coaches I talk to, all see this problem of narrowness restricting the passing options the same way we do. All decent teams have players on both touchlines simultaneously when in possession spreading the opposition and increasing the passing options. Good teams defend in to out and attack out to in but most on here just don't get it.

 

So how did Sir Alf win a World Cup without any wingers.?

 

But

 

Two of the goals scored on Tuesday came from wide players beating their marker

 

Puncheon was hugging the Left Touchline during the First Half but was completely ineffective

Edited 25 March, 2010 by John B

[derry]

I've seen Lallana and Puncheon receive the ball on the byline loads of time this season so to say that they don't provide width is nonsense. Neither of them are speed merchants so you'll rarely see them get a cross in from the byline, but to be honest you rarely see that from any team in this league and only rarely in the top flight as it's pretty common for full backs to be as fast as wingers these days.

 

Our wide midfielders provide variation thanks to their close control and their ability to come inside and play the killer through ball. If they were out and out wingers we would be one dimensional in our attacking play, which would be far more frustrating than what we have at the moment.

 

Other teams might get the better of us occasionally and Swindon managed it by double or triple marking Lallana and Puncheon every time they got the ball, and then capiltalising on the fact that Morgan and Hammond had poor games and controlling the centre of the park. i don't think that they were a particular threat down the wings all game.

 

Width is not being on one touchline with the widest player on the other side tucked in beside the central midfielders, it is using the full width of the field not half of it. Puncheon is quick and often goes down the outside crossing from the byeline either side, Lallana never.

 

Swindon didn't double and triple mark Lallana and Puncheon, they didn't have to, as they were tucked in tight to the central midfielder., the Swindon midfield and back four made a compact 8 denying them the room, It was a traffic jam with 14 players in a small space. Lallana and Puncheon were instructed to tuck in and we got what we deserved. Schneiderlin especially had no place to pass the ball because of the traffic jam.

 

As soon as Swindon got the ball they spread out and moved the ball around from wing to wing keeping possession which we couldn't do.

[derry]

Anyway I would have thought that United's greatest attribute was the road roller like pressure that they put on defences (and midfields) by their continuous change of attacking formation.Kaleidoscope formation, that's what Utd play.

 

Anyway I don't know if you all follow continental football but Bayern Munich have complained to their FA about the state of Schalke's pitch. They say they keep it like that on purpose to slow the game down.

 

United play the simplest system in football albeit with very good players. It is break out quickly, get the ball out wide, keep the width on the blind side for the switch in case of being blocked off, the full back on the play side reinforces the wide player and the midfield runners get up quickly into the box to reinforce Rooney or Berbatov. All executed at pace on the break. Simple and devastating.

[View From The Top]

What I've been saying and seeing all season. The trouble on here is lots of football fans but few with any real experience of playing or coaching. The ex players and coaches I talk to, all see this problem of narrowness restricting the passing options the same way we do. All decent teams have players on both touchlines simultaneously when in possession spreading the opposition and increasing the passing options. Good teams defend in to out and attack out to in but most on here just don't get it.

 

What a pompous arse you are as well as a clueless dinosaur.

[John B]

What a pompous arse you are as well as a clueless dinosaur.

 

Seems a reasonable response

[Alanh]

Width is not being on one touchline with the widest player on the other side tucked in beside the central midfielders, it is using the full width of the field not half of it. Puncheon is quick and often goes down the outside crossing from the byeline either side, Lallana never.

 

Swindon didn't double and triple mark Lallana and Puncheon, they didn't have to, as they were tucked in tight to the central midfielder., the Swindon midfield and back four made a compact 8 denying them the room, It was a traffic jam with 14 players in a small space. Lallana and Puncheon were instructed to tuck in and we got what we deserved. Schneiderlin especially had no place to pass the ball because of the traffic jam.

 

As soon as Swindon got the ball they spread out and moved the ball around from wing to wing keeping possession which we couldn't do.

 

Gonna have to disagree because I saw Lallana and Puncheon being double and triple marked during the Swindon match.

 

I agree that wingers hugging the touchline is a way to spread play, especially when play is through the middle, giving the centre mids options to spread the play wide, but when play is on either flank the opposite wide man needs to come in to support the centre mids who automatically track across.

[derry]

So how did Sir Alf win a World Cup without any wingers.?

 

But

 

Two of the goals scored on Tuesday came from wide players beating their marker

 

Puncheon was hugging the Left Touchline during the First Half but was completely ineffective

 

Ball and Peters plus lots of movement from Hurst and Hunt. Don't need wingers, just need to have players wide both touchlines when attacking. Chelsea do it with about six players, AV use two some use three or four to achieve the same thing with movement, but it is using the full width of the pitch which keeps the passing options open. We compact on purpose and restrict our movement by not using the full width of the pitch resulting in the lumping it up to Lambert. When we do on occasions open up such as Walsall and twenty minutes on Tuesday we are very positive so why do we need to restrict ourselves especially as we seem more secure defensively playing like that.

[derry]

Gonna have to disagree because I saw Lallana and Puncheon being double and triple marked during the Swindon match.

 

I agree that wingers hugging the touchline is a way to spread play, especially when play is through the middle, giving the centre mids options to spread the play wide, but when play is on either flank the opposite wide man needs to come in to support the centre mids who automatically track across.

 

It is indeed what you saw, but Swindon weren't intentionally marking with two or three, it was the tightness of the play that caused the Swindon players to be compacted and the traffic jam that meant our midfield was constantly under pressure from the sheer numbers of opponents in a small area, which we brought on ourselves by compacting the midfield, which we did again with a 4-3-1-2 even narrower formation on Tuesday until after the first goal.

 

There is a point in time for the second wide midfielder to come inside. Too early and there is no switching alternative and it allows the fullback to tuck in and reinforce the central defenders, Too late and no threat, however it could keep the full back out, opening up the middle for a midfield runner. Ideally hold off and come in late on the 45 on the blindside arriving late with the ability to attack/recover the deep or over hit cross with the posibility of being a free man as the fullback will more than likely be drawn away to help the central defenders.

Edited 25 March, 2010 by derry

[Legod Third Coming]

Pedant alert! (surprised that one has got this far down the thread)

 

And I'm sure I would be quite capable of putting in a decent shift in those circumstances; supermarket trolleys just have to be collected and stacked and it's simply unprofessional to be thinking about other 'stuff' at the same time.

 

Bugger - now I know why I drove to Wales... You know what I meant!!!