Martin Samuel, Daily Mail on Coretese: "self serving" and a "buffoon"

[alpine_saint]

I don't think I have ever heard him saying anything complementary about Pardew and our season. Let's face it, it has been our best season for years. Yes of course any team can always do better and I am sure every one of us who would rather be higher up the league, but there is no corrrelation between spending money and a higher league place and that is what NC doesn't seem to grasp. It is going to take time and he would do well to back his manager in public, even if he might have words behind closed doors.

 

For all of LOwe's faluts he did not hang his managers out to dry (and he had a few!). He took te attitude that it was better that people had a pop at him and left the manager alone. I get the impression with Nicola in that he is making damn sure from day 1 that no flak goes his way!

 

Why can you just admit you wish Lowe was still here ?

 

And Lowe DID hang managers out to dry - he spectacularly failed to back up Sturrock.

 

As for your latest bugbear about money not getting high table positions, I suggest you take a look at the PL table...

[dune]

So that's 204 posts on the bull****.

 

If I may sum up.

 

NC is a god, a hero, we love him.

 

Martin Samuel is a ****.

 

LOCKED.

[sadoldgit]

Why can you just admit you wish Lowe was still here ?

 

And Lowe DID hang managers out to dry - he spectacularly failed to back up Sturrock.

 

As for your latest bugbear about money not getting high table positions, I suggest you take a look at the PL table...

 

Because I don't? Can you grasp that simple concept?

 

Do you know exactly what went on with Sturrock? Even he seemed to admit that he should go.

 

Feel free to tell us about all of the times he came out in print and slagged off (or failed to support) his managers.

 

If money guarantees success why haven't teams like Tottenham won anything for ages? They have spent a fortune. How much have Man City spent this season? Hardly Barcelona are they? How much did Roy Keane spend at Ipswich earlier this season? £8m. Where are they?

 

It is not how much you spend, it is who you buy. As I keep trying to get through to you, our best players over the years have not been our most expensive. Doesn't that say anything to you? Probably not because you just seem hung up on cash.

 

You like Cortese because he is the same kind kind of knee jerk reactionary that you are. No doubt he went to the same charm school too.

 

Perhaps you woul like to tell us exactly how much it costs to get promotion from Div 3? Then all we have to do is to tell Mr Cortese what he needs to fork out to guarantee automatic promotion next season.

[dune]

sig and alps, once bitterne and stu, i want a forum buddy.

[sadoldgit]

Whatever The Mail says, Cortese will ultimately succeed or fail. If he succeeds no one here will care if he is a "buffoon" or not. If he fails he will get the usual grief from the disgrunted fan base and Samuel will no doubt be saying, "I told you so."

 

Time will tell.

[dune]

Whatever The Mail says, Cortese will ultimately succeed or fail.

 

 

Wow, that's inspired sog.

[Arizona]

I don't generally read the Wail, but I found one lying around at work and decided to take a read. On the front cover, BA trolly dollys are trying to take over the government. In the sports page I read this load of koi about Cortese. It all started so promising, slagging off Pompey and Woopert, but then it just turned into petty insults against (IMO) the best chairman we've had in a couple of decades.

 

I think Cortese is right in being disappointed with our league results and not being nearer the top. I am to an extent, but at the same time I think Pardew had a tough job, he's done it well and is the best man for the job.

 

It's a myth that having money to spend makes a managers job easy. Look at Chelsea, Man City, Newcastle and Spuds. Stability is the key.

[dune]

I don't generally read the Wail, but I found one lying around at work and decided to take a read. On the front cover, BA trolly dollys are trying to take over the government. In the sports page I read this load of koi about Cortese. It all started so promising, slagging off Pompey and Woopert, but then it just turned into petty insults against (IMO) the best chairman we've had in a couple of decades.

 

I think Cortese is right in being disappointed with our league results and not being nearer the top. I am to an extent, but at the same time I think Pardew had a tough job, he's done it well and is the best man for the job.

 

It's a myth that having money to spend makes a managers job easy. Look at Chelsea, Man City, Newcastle and Spuds. Stability is the key.

 

And Lock, well said mate. We don't need this **** now.

[sadoldgit]

Wow, that's inspired sog.

 

I am trying to make it easy for Alpine to get his head around it Dune.

 

But it is that simple isn't it? For all of the column inches in the Mail, or here, we just spout opinions. What do they matter? What will be will be.

[dune]

I am trying to make it easy for Alpine to get his head around it Dune.

 

But it is that simple isn't it? For all of the column inches in the Mail, or here, we just spout opinions. What do they matter? What will be will be.

 

To be fair both of you are thick as ****.

 

But Alps is cool cos he took my solent radio text in good humour.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

You are well aware that I personally think the strike is petty, but perhaps i'm wrong because i'm not fully aware of the issues. What I will say though is that everyone who kind of knows you from here will pretty much have come to the conclusion that the article was one sided and completely in tune with the opinion of the paper. The worst part about it (and it'd be foolish for you to comment on this) is that it would seem that personal information was disclosed from your employer. You find yourself in a battle of attrition and there's some serious money involved so i'd assume you will have prepared yourself to expect some dirty tricks. The article was clearly a three pronged attack - win public support / divide and rule / try to rattle to ring leaders. You have complete control over whether you get rattled or not and you also have a degree of control over the other points. Be smart.

 

Appreciate your comments. I know that politically we maybe apart but that makes your post quite heart warming and I am grateful for it.

Indded I have taken out a grievance v BA re this data protection so probably best I say nothing more - but again thanks

[dune]

Appreciate your comments. I know that politically we maybe apart but that makes your post quite heart warming and I am grateful for it.

Indded I have taken out a grievance v BA re this data protection so probably best I say nothing more - but again thanks

 

FF i may have a view, but i can see that you and your family will have been hurt by that report so i think it needs saying, not just on my behalf, but on behalf of everyone on here, that we think your a good guy. Chin up mate, have a good nights sleep, then follow through what you've started. I've got a thick skin, but if i had to go through what you've been through it'd horrible, but you need to know that you have friends and that we all do respect you.

Edited 24 March, 2010 by dune

[Fitzhugh Fella]

FF i may have a view, but i can see that you and your family will have been hurt by that report so i think it needs saying, not just on my behalf, but on behalf of everyone on here, that we think your a good guy. Chin up mate, have a good nights sleep, then follow through what you've started.

 

Ta!!!

[benjii]

Better start clearing space on the mantle-piece for the Employee of the Month award FF!

[dune]

Better start clearing space on the mantle-piece for the Employee of the Month award FF!

 

ha ha, Willy and Rupert love him really.

[dune]

FF you been called an arsehole yet?

[St_Tel49]

An over-blown story built out of a few comments used by Cortese to stop people from resting on their laurels. Journalists have to make stories and that is what they do - no matter how fragile the basis. He got his column inches and will have moved on by now.

[dune]

An over-blown story built out of a few comments used by Cortese to stop people from resting on their laurels. Journalists have to make stories and that is what they do - no matter how fragile the basis of it. He got his column inches and will have moved on by now.

 

Bet his n0ob aint got inches though.

[dune]

FF come into the lounge and give us your greatest song, take your mind off the ****.

[speculator]

Money when spent correctly does win games.

 

But does it buy you what you ultimately covet? Only if you back the judgement of the manager you hired to do the job. Roman and Jose could have delivered the Champions league to Chelsea but many Roman millions and managerial twists down the road and Jose is laughing longest.

 

Even money spent correctly is only a contibuting factor if managerial squabbles fall into the public domain. Samuel is not someone I like or choose to read but I respect his right to write about what he sees in the public domain and whose fault is it that it is out there?

 

Cortese is a good businessman without question but he is no messiah and should be judged on his on going merits to manage the business and keep staff issues in house for starters. He saved this club by persuading Mr Liebherr to invest a considerable sum of money but let's not lose sight of the fact that he did not save it for the same reasons a typical Saints fan would have saved it given the resources. There is a pure love for the club and love for the business opportunity and it's rare they are found in the same beast although the later can no doiubt grow to love it post investment.

[scotty]

Also Spike Lee, Matt Damon, Hugh Grant, Elton John and Bruce Willis.

 

I told elton john to f*ck off once. Not just in passing, but as a result of a direct request from his PA which I considered somewhat insulting. True story:cool:

[corsacar saint]

Duncan is a top guy, I can personally vouch for that.

I do not see any problem with NC either.

[Saint J 77]

This article about Cortese was much better IMO!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/football_league/article7070442.ece

 

Agreed

 

I love the quote from Cortese “On Saturdays I can’t sleep,” he said. I get very nervous. I wake up at 5am and can’t eat before the match. My hands feel icy cold — it’s the only time. Normally they are warm. It’s terrible.”

 

Although you could be cynical and suggest that he is worried about Marcus's investment, I think It shows his attachment to the club has started to go beyond that now. I know I feel like that ever time Saints have a big game on.

[dune]

Cortese is a good businessman without question but he is no messiah and should be judged on his on going merits to manage the business and keep staff issues in house for starters. He saved this club by persuading Mr Liebherr to invest a considerable sum of money but let's not lose sight of the fact that he did not save it for the same reasons a typical Saints fan would have saved it given the resources. There is a pure love for the club and love for the business opportunity and it's rare they are found in the same beast although the later can no doiubt grow to love it post investment.

 

so many words to say what can said in half that number.

[hypochondriac]

FF i may have a view, but i can see that you and your family will have been hurt by that report so i think it needs saying, not just on my behalf, but on behalf of everyone on here, that we think your a good guy. Chin up mate, have a good nights sleep, then follow through what you've started. I've got a thick skin, but if i had to go through what you've been through it'd horrible, but you need to know that you have friends and that we all do respect you.

 

When it comes to this I do think the Mail were totally out of order. I feel very sorry for you Duncan because I know how I would feel if that had been me and my family. I hope things will be OK.

[westofshannonsaint]

Wasn't this guy a bit of a Lowe Luvvie?

 

I think he might still be

.......Then there is Southampton, where the delightful Rupert Lowe was followed by a succession of wealthy populists who claimed to have the interests of the club at heart but succeeded only in running it into the ground. Southampton fell two divisions,

[Dark Munster]

NC saved the club, I had read a few things he has written before but not now he clearly is a c**k \and is trying to create storys.

That's the bottom line. Whether or not he's self-serving or a buffoon, he's a Saints' hero in my eyes.

[up and away]

And I wouldn't be at all surprised if Cortese concludes that there's "inside information" behind Samuel's article, and draws his own conclusions about where it came from. If so - given that Cortese's ego might well be bruised by that article, anything could happen. After Sunday.

 

I just cannot see that, there is nothing here that smacks of any detailed inside information. Nothing has been put out directly into the open, but more than enough to read between the lines and come up with this obvious conclusion. Pretty sure Pardew would not do this and neither Cortese to react. What you have here is a person of an admitted nervous position regarding the football side of things in Cortese, transfering this to Pardew during their regular get togethers.

 

 

And I'm NOT sure he will get those funds. As I've said before, my fear is that Cortese won't release much Summer money to Pardew because he can argue that he already did that without seeing his (Cortese's) desired return.

 

I just don't want to see us caught in a twilight where Cortese won't fire Pardew but won't back him either.

 

One thing I would be positive of, whether it be Pardew or anyone else, they will have the funds. Cortese would never make a non decision like that, in his eyes that would be worse than making a bad decision. It's not as if Pardew has even had a bad buy so far.

[CanadaSaint]

I just cannot see that, there is nothing here that smacks of any detailed inside information. Nothing has been put out directly into the open, but more than enough to read between the lines and come up with this obvious conclusion.

 

Perhaps "inside information" is the wrong term - inside emotion, more like. I just don't know why Samuel would bother with a Tier Three club - when there's so much going on around the country - if something quite direct hadn't piqued his interest. Something that fuelled a one-sided, over-the-top tirade.

 

One thing I would be positive of, whether it be Pardew or anyone else, they will have the funds. Cortese would never make a non decision like that, in his eyes that would be worse than making a bad decision.

 

I hope you're right, but your key words might be "whether it be Pardew or anyone else".

[Fitzhugh Fella]

When it comes to this I do think the Mail were totally out of order. I feel very sorry for you Duncan because I know how I would feel if that had been me and my family. I hope things will be OK.

 

Thanks Hypo - appreciate the comment.

[Legod Third Coming]

I have enjoyed this season more than I have for a long time even more than WGS' reign. I dont worry if we dont get to the PL if we carry on entertaining ,scoring goals and hqave decent crowds. Im not suire I want to pay £40 to watch the so called 'worlds most exciting league' as Wigan/Bolton/Blackburn come to SMS set up not to lose. Im happy but that does not mean I dont want us to not do better when we patently should do.

As for Viagra i dont need it....yet

 

Don't knock it till you've tried it...

[Frank's cousin]

Thanks Hypo - appreciate the comment.

 

Hi Duncs... you been upsetting those lovely folks at the Mail again? That last bastian of empirialistic, bigotted, hideousness of a rag? Shame on you Sir! ;-) - Was going to add that its just run by a load of Ar**holes,....but as the old gag goes, Ar**holes are useful.

 

Anyway, hope you are doing good.

 

Bback on the topic, I think for many fans they are facing a bit of a dilemma about NC. On the one hand, under his leadership and MLs money we have aclub that wa srescured from teh brink and given how low we had sunk has seen apretty strong recovery, under a manager who has us playing some nice football, if at times a little frustratiningly inconsistent... So from that perspective most fans are are happy with the overall progress made this year - in a similar way to the Pearson season.

 

We therefore expect that the board would feel the same way with next season being the one where the real pressure on promotion should be expected by all at the club and the fans.

 

But as we know, money by itself does not equal success - money + good management + player selection + LUCK = success. So we will need a good combination even next season where we wont have the psychological millstone of negative points at5 the start opf the season.

 

 

So why is NC being so publically critical? Does he really not understand football as some have suggested? We wont to be 100% behind him on the basis of his rescue, but have this nagging doubt that he might not have the patience that we would consider to be the 'wise' approach?

 

Its tricky because we only see what is published, and to get the real mark of a man you really need to get to know them first. So what are we to make of it all?

 

Personally, I think we ned to split out two seperate issues first: the financial stability + investment, and secondly what this in turn means with respect to expectations.

 

ML and NC have been on record since they bought the club that a) financial stabilty and well run 'within its means' club is a priority (with the caveat that funding may be made available relative to teh league we are in and to the budget) to achieve a return to the premiership within 5 years.

 

As I understand it (and please someone with more facts here correct any mistakes) - the target is to have the club running operationally within its means with ML providing the odd mil or so for a player or two - That moey as I understand it will be loans to the club which I understand are interest free.... all well and good, BUT it means that MLs expectations for success are also high, not just NC who will be under pressure from ML to succeed. Rememeber, we see ML smiling and enjoying his football as an almost cuddly bear...yet he will not have risen in the ranks at Leibherr and then continued to run a new global business by just being a cuddly bear. I suspect he works with NC because he trusts NC to deliver - but the pressure will be on.

 

So, does NC have enough fottball nous to ensure he does not lose patience and fall into the trap of the manager merry-go-round? Or will he see that success usually comes to those who build?

 

I think under normal circumstances, he would have the patience etc.... but we do not have normal circumstances... We hired a manager with Prem experience (probably on good money) - a decent record who should be able to set us apart in this league - especially with the Chelski like resources, relative to this league, that are available to him. Hense the dilemma - we do not know what discussions took place between the two when Pards was appointed - we heard about the 5 year plan (which Pards alluded too recently) BUT that is likely to have been discussed at the start of the season. The success achieved with substatial investment DID put us after Christmas in a position where we were being touted as play off contenders - BECAUSE of this extra investment and the goal posts may well have chnaged at that time - 'sure you can buy X,Y and Z Alan' but if you want to spend that now, we will need to see accelerated results and a playoff place, can you deliver that?'

 

Speculation naturally, but not unrealistic.

 

So what does all this waffle mean? Well for me, I dont actually care what is said in public (ironically), by either party, its what is said behind closed doors that is important. I do hope that NC does have the patience and understands the need for stabilty andthat hat has been achieved is not that bad - Samual does make a valid point about Norwich and Charlton's squads - but they also had bad starts - and in that time we invested heavily to improve the quality which is whaere NC is coming from.... but If I am pushed, I think given the hurdles we had to overcome, the -10, the decimated and demoralised squad and that we will probably finish the season on around 75-78 points (85-88 in form) that is quite a remarkable job under the circumstances and I hope NC sees that.

 

It means however, that next seaosn there should only be one aim - automatic promotion as champions, the squad, the investment, support and manager are in place - there is nothing missing so there can be no excuses.

 

Herewith endeth the sermon ;-) (well my 6 pounds, four shillings and 8 pence worth anyway)

[alpine_saint]

Hi Duncs... you been upsetting those lovely folks at the Mail again? That last bastian of empirialistic, bigotted, hideousness of a rag? Shame on you Sir! ;-) - Was going to add that its just run by a load of Ar**holes,....but as the old gag goes, Ar**holes are useful.

 

Anyway, hope you are doing good.

 

Bback on the topic, I think for many fans they are facing a bit of a dilemma about NC. On the one hand, under his leadership and MLs money we have aclub that wa srescured from teh brink and given how low we had sunk has seen apretty strong recovery, under a manager who has us playing some nice football, if at times a little frustratiningly inconsistent... So from that perspective most fans are are happy with the overall progress made this year - in a similar way to the Pearson season.

 

We therefore expect that the board would feel the same way with next season being the one where the real pressure on promotion should be expected by all at the club and the fans.

 

But as we know, money by itself does not equal success - money + good management + player selection + LUCK = success. So we will need a good combination even next season where we wont have the psychological millstone of negative points at5 the start opf the season.

 

 

So why is NC being so publically critical? Does he really not understand football as some have suggested? We wont to be 100% behind him on the basis of his rescue, but have this nagging doubt that he might not have the patience that we would consider to be the 'wise' approach?

 

Its tricky because we only see what is published, and to get the real mark of a man you really need to get to know them first. So what are we to make of it all?

 

Personally, I think we ned to split out two seperate issues first: the financial stability + investment, and secondly what this in turn means with respect to expectations.

 

ML and NC have been on record since they bought the club that a) financial stabilty and well run 'within its means' club is a priority (with the caveat that funding may be made available relative to teh league we are in and to the budget) to achieve a return to the premiership within 5 years.

 

As I understand it (and please someone with more facts here correct any mistakes) - the target is to have the club running operationally within its means with ML providing the odd mil or so for a player or two - That moey as I understand it will be loans to the club which I understand are interest free.... all well and good, BUT it means that MLs expectations for success are also high, not just NC who will be under pressure from ML to succeed. Rememeber, we see ML smiling and enjoying his football as an almost cuddly bear...yet he will not have risen in the ranks at Leibherr and then continued to run a new global business by just being a cuddly bear. I suspect he works with NC because he trusts NC to deliver - but the pressure will be on.

 

So, does NC have enough fottball nous to ensure he does not lose patience and fall into the trap of the manager merry-go-round? Or will he see that success usually comes to those who build?

 

I think under normal circumstances, he would have the patience etc.... but we do not have normal circumstances... We hired a manager with Prem experience (probably on good money) - a decent record who should be able to set us apart in this league - especially with the Chelski like resources, relative to this league, that are available to him. Hense the dilemma - we do not know what discussions took place between the two when Pards was appointed - we heard about the 5 year plan (which Pards alluded too recently) BUT that is likely to have been discussed at the start of the season. The success achieved with substatial investment DID put us after Christmas in a position where we were being touted as play off contenders - BECAUSE of this extra investment and the goal posts may well have chnaged at that time - 'sure you can buy X,Y and Z Alan' but if you want to spend that now, we will need to see accelerated results and a playoff place, can you deliver that?'

 

Speculation naturally, but not unrealistic.

 

So what does all this waffle mean? Well for me, I dont actually care what is said in public (ironically), by either party, its what is said behind closed doors that is important. I do hope that NC does have the patience and understands the need for stabilty andthat hat has been achieved is not that bad - Samual does make a valid point about Norwich and Charlton's squads - but they also had bad starts - and in that time we invested heavily to improve the quality which is whaere NC is coming from.... but If I am pushed, I think given the hurdles we had to overcome, the -10, the decimated and demoralised squad and that we will probably finish the season on around 75-78 points (85-88 in form) that is quite a remarkable job under the circumstances and I hope NC sees that.

 

It means however, that next seaosn there should only be one aim - automatic promotion as champions, the squad, the investment, support and manager are in place - there is nothing missing so there can be no excuses.

 

Herewith endeth the sermon ;-) (well my 6 pounds, four shillings and 8 pence worth anyway)

 

A fair assessment. Dont agree with everypoint, but the message is sound.

[up and away]

Bback on the topic,

 

Let's imagine Pardew had never said the cups were the priority and the Solent interviewer asked Cortese how he thought the season was going, rather than why he had prioritised the cups? All we may have had then is a simple

"We have done well in the cups but not so well in the league, our priority."

Just substitute that statement within the interview and it would hardly be noticed, along with the requirement for comparison to other teams. Cortese deliberately did not criticise Pardew directly, whilst emphatic upon the direction he wants.

[Johnny Bognor]

Appreciate your comments. I know that politically we maybe apart but that makes your post quite heart warming and I am grateful for it.

Indded I have taken out a grievance v BA re this data protection so probably best I say nothing more - but again thanks

 

If you want some help/advice on the Data Protection issue, I am more than happy to help. You may remember the Andy Oldknow feather spitting issue regarding the publicising of a certain season ticket holder's status a few years ago.

 

Cheers

JB

 

PS I still don't agree with the strike, but to be victimised so publicly is beyond dirty tricks IMO

[INFLUENCED.COM]

to be victimised so publicly is beyond dirty tricks

 

Agree and fair play to you for the offer JB.

[JackFrost]

Wasn't this guy a bit of a Lowe Luvvie?

 

Not even going to bother to read the article - and someone has already said tomorrow's fish and chip paper.

 

I think Lowe had a very close connection with the Mail. During his tenure every article printed in the Mail had come straight from the lips of Lowe.

 

I'd have thought that RL was too smart to have a "jealous dig" at the new regime by attacking Cortese through his megaphone but the Mail have tended to be pro-Lowe from the late 90s.

[Redondo Saint]

I think Lowe had a very close connection with the Mail. During his tenure every article printed in the Mail had come straight from the lips of Lowe.

 

I'd have thought that RL was too smart to have a "jealous dig" at the new regime by attacking Cortese through his megaphone but the Mail have tended to be pro-Lowe from the late 90s.

 

RL had nothing to do with this at all. In addition the 'author' has no love for RL.

 

Let's move on and not give this story any more publicity.

[BridgnorthSaint]

wouldn't really disagree with that article.

 

...That Cortese publically recognised the stirling job being currently done by Alan Pardew. We would seriously struggle to find a replacement for him. I hope that Cortese's criticism does not affect him too much.

[VectisSaint]

I'd have thought that RL was too smart to have a "jealous dig" at the new regime

"RL" and "smart" in the same sentence, not something I ever expected to see. RL is not now and never was smart. He is not the successful businessman that he is hyped up to be. Therefore I would not put anything past him. However, he is no friend of the Mail.

[Wade Garrett]

to be fair to Samuel he does call our demise spot on, many have focused on the dig at Lowe but he is equally condescending about the rest of the crew that fecked it up

 

 

 

That is as equally spot on as the Lowe blow

 

Bit unfair on Crouch. Remember who paid the wages when we were in administration. He was OK, but was undermined by Wilde and Lowe.

[Joneth]

When I read the thread title I just presumed "buffoon" and "self serving" referred to Martin Samuel.