Criticising the manager....

[Noodles34]

I don't think we've accepted mediocrity. We should aim to be among the best of our peers and I think we are now. However, in August we were a demoralised, not very good team. The 5-year plan is still on track.

 

Please let's not go back to the managerial revolving door.

 

Exactly! This is how GS would do it, AP is rubbish, get rid. New Manager, new players etc, six months we are mid table and so get rid, new manager, new players, 6 months in, 10th, get rid. We had someone here like that before, he was well great that bloke!

[Red&White]

is a favourite pastime of frustrated fans ..and chairmen.

Fans who faithfully attend every match they possible can, and then see a poor performance are often quick to criticise; manager, players or even referees - when their team doesn't pick up 3 points every game.

Lawrie McMenemy (argueably the most successful Saints manager ever) was once quoted as saying..."as manager, you can never never win. If the team gets the points, fans say - the team played well, if they lose - it's my fault 'cos I picked them ", and McMenemy was no stranger to criticism both during and after his 13 years at the club - which started with a relegation!

 

Success has been a rare visitor to SFC in recent decades. Seasons 1976, and 1983/4 were highpoints of the past that were rarely repeated. Enormous support in the 99 "Great Escape" season - when we JUST avoided Prem relegation, and extra boost with ONE good year with Gordon Strachan. Much sadness since, but now we seem to be on the up again.

This current team has won more games than any other team in the last 26 years...and it's only March - poor performance?

 

Building a team, like building a house isn't easier because you employ more bricklayers / or spend money on new players. It takes time to do a good job. Neither Cortese or, Pardew had any idea what they were getting into when they tried to re-float a club last August that started with -10 points. IMHO they have both done excellent jobs in their own way.

 

Throwing money at a problem doesn't solve it either- as Roman A. has found at Chelsea, and losing patience and sacking a manager in anger was a bad decision that came home to roost for him on Wednesday night.

 

After 50 years as a fan...I am perhaps more philosophical than some, and many olders fans have seen more change, euphoria and turmoil than many of our younger supporters can ever imagine. If patience is a virtue then it better be a quality that we need to acquire because I'm sure that even if by some miracle, we got promoted this season,some people would be criticising the manager whose team was ONLY 10th in the CCC - next season !

 

Good post

[CB Fry]

Man Utd didn't start with - 10 points, a new manager and a new owner, correct me if i am wrong but didn't Fergie nearly get them relegated in his first year? Chelsea have hardly spent a penny this year and City, well on yours and GS's theory should be 10 points clear of the EPL, so it is relative.

 

 

You are wrong. Ferguson has never been anywhere near getting United relegated.

 

The point is the biggest spending teams are funnily enough all at the top of the league. City have had two managers this season (oh no, NO PRE SEASON!!!!! for Mancini) and are still on course for fourth, which was the target on day one.

 

If you ignore the minus ten we still aren't even in the play off zone which really was the standard for this season.

[ecuk268]

You are wrong. Ferguson has never been anywhere near getting United relegated.

 

In his 3rd season in '89 they finished 11th. In today's high-pressure climate, he'd probably be sacked.

[Noodles34]

You are wrong. Ferguson has never been anywhere near getting United relegated.

 

The point is the biggest spending teams are funnily enough all at the top of the league. City have had two managers this season (oh no, NO PRE SEASON!!!!! for Mancini) and are still on course for fourth, which was the target on day one.

 

If you ignore the minus ten we still aren't even in the play off zone which really was the standard for this season.

 

sorry for being wrong about Fergie, that clearly makes all the difference!

 

So what was our target at the start of the season? Was it seriously the PO's, if it was then whoever set it knows F all about football.

 

Jesus, after what we (the fans, the players and most importantly the infrastructure) have gone through in the last 4 years you really think having AP as manager and buying Ricky Lambert should suddenly make us at least the 2nd best team in the league (the gap between 2nd and 6th being the 10 point we lost) immediately, deluded my friend, deluded!

[doddisalegend]

In his 3rd season in '89 they finished 11th. In today's high-pressure climate, he'd probably be sacked.

 

Just look closer to home with Lawrie McMenemy arguably one of saints best managers started off with relegation and took fours years to get them back up. That sort of patience just doesn't exsist in football anymore it's all six months, instant succsess or shown the door now. The EPL worse thing to happen to English football ever fact.

[Thedelldays]

people using lawrie mac as an example because he got relegated...where were you at the start of the season in support of Wotte..? where was your "lawrie got relegated give him time" lines then..?

 

wotte clearly had no chance last season seeing as being good enough for about 6-8th in league 1 meant replacing near enough the whole team/squad from last season

[david in sweden]

How could Pardew "not have any idea what he was getting into".

I thought he was a professional football manager with top flight experience being appointed to take over a club in the third tier of English football, with more money than any club at that level for over a decade.

 

How could he "not have any idea"? Aren't we paying him to have "an idea" or two.I'm getting heartily sick of people making out that Saints are the hardest done by club in British football.

 

Getting a club spending millions with the second biggest fanbase in the division promoted from League One is NOT some unrealistic footballing miracle. Cortese must wish he'd never spent a penny on players because he has invested millions and millions and millions on playing talent only for ungrateful berks to pontificate about how "money doesn't make any difference". I wish he'd spent zero. Nothing.

 

Just stuck last years kids out. Because buying Lambert and Barnard and Hammond and Harding and Puncheon and Fonte makes no difference apparently. Cortese should have spent nothing. Because money doesn't solve anything, does it?

Then you gits would have something to bloody moan about then.

 

 

Well CB FRY, you seem to have singled out one phrase in my original post and built a thesis on it. Few could have forseen how bad it would be from August. The expression was my assessment and not Alan Pardews words.Obviously, the remains of a team brought back from the brink of extinction and not good enough to stay in the CCC was a warning, but it needed eight league games, 5 new players and a couple of loans to get us our first league win. I don't think the worst pessimist on the site would have expected that..and even AP couldn't have anticiapted it, either. Neiher do I think that NC would have allowed Pardew to spend 3 million in the first month..and we wouldn't have got the players we have now.

 

Only four of AP start side v. Millwall (H) are still first choice, and all 3 of the original strike force (Saga, Paterson and Rasiak) have since gone. There have been a lot of changes. Good job we still have Thomas, Perry and Wotton because they will be central to the team when we go to Wembley, whilst the new guys will be in the stands.

 

Although its a painful reality, many seem to forget that Saints have actually EARNED 57 points this season,(only the FA's -10 points has left us where we are.) If we'd had 20 points deduction we'd be even lower - but neither Saints or Leeds, Huddf'd, MK Dons or Norwich have a divine right to win every game.

 

Most teams get new players from time to time, whether they are cost a million or not, - is that wrong?

Lambert is top scorer in the League - bad buy ?

Fonte looks to be the best CH we've had in quite a few years - bad buy ?

Puncheon is one of the most creative players since the millenium - bad buy ?

Edited 19 March, 2010 by david in sweden

[Alain Perrin]

Are you serious with that ???

 

"Struggled to play our normal game" I don't recall us TRYING to play Football

 

Of Course Swindon worked hard

 

So, instead of playing "risky passes", all we did was to hoof the ball up into the night sky, for the Swindon Centre Backs to deal with when it came back down

 

"The players decided to boot it away" All by themselves ??? NOT under instruction from the Manager ????

 

In that case, as the Team were doing it all by themselves, no need to have a Manager is there ???

 

If Pardew did not instruct the players to Hoof the ball into the air, then why did he allow it to continue ?, because that course of action was getting us NOWHERE

 

You infer that you do not believe that Pardew instructed the Team to play that way, so, as he obviously has no control on how we play, he might just as well come and join us in the stands

 

The only good thing about Pardew is that you can set your clock as to when Barnard will be subbed

 

Sign of a great Manager that was, Lambert had taken a bad knock, and was struggling. But, don't change anything, stick to the script eh ??

 

Pardew showed how clueless he is, as time went on, when he was at Charlton

 

After Tuesday nights Saints performance, Carlisle must be really looking forward to the 28th:cool:

 

 

I'm sorry to ask the obvious question, but were you there? I will never suggest Pardew is the messiah, but from the above your understanding of football seems to be lacking.

 

Swindon's game plan was to put two men on Lallana / Puncheon as soon as they got the ball. This stifled the outlet for the midfield leading to (Hammond in particular) hoofing it.

 

Pardew's issue is that the team plays well a particular way and they need to add variety to their locker. That's not something they've done to date, but it's something they'll have to do to succeed next season.

 

First half we were all over them and unlucky not to have one or two (a different game then), second half we got rattled and rushed things.

 

One thing is for certain, if Pardew had subbed Lambert after his knock (from which he recovered) then you'd have been slagging him for taking off our top scorer. In reality he did what he could - he brought on Papa for pace and James for a more atttacking RB option.

 

Neither worked out, but those were constructive changes.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Five out of four people have trouble with fractions.

 

4 out of 5 people on this forum don't go to Saints matches...

[corsacar saint]

The post and reasoning put forward by Trousers is the nearest to the mark for me.

[SaintRichmond]

If you watched Pardew on tuesday he was doing his nut on the side lines shouting at the players you could see issed he was with them in the second half. I do not believe any manager in any league tells his player to hoof to the opposition (christ even the managers in my sons under nines league give better instuctions than that). The players have to take the wrap for tuesday to often the players get to hide behind the manager, the manager can not be held responsible for professional players not being able to string two passes together.

 

The fact is AP has still won more matches this season (which isn't over yet) than any saints manager has managed in any season in the last 26 years so he must be doing something right.

 

What you are effectively saying is that Pardew has no influence or control over HIS players ???

 

The players have to take the rap ??? Just reflect on that during the off season, when quite a few of Pardew's "Best Buys", bought for the sole purpose of reaching the play offs (Cortese), decide to move on

 

I honestly do not thionk that Pardew is very far up Cortese's Popular list:cool:

[up and away]

I can't agree Leeds and Charlton have both wobbled but they're still up top becuase they had such strong starts, got their noses far enough in front to be able to afford a wobble. Their first year down here leeds got of to a very strong start and that allowed them to keep up with the top teams despite the points deduction. Our slow start got us into a postion where every game since christmas has been a must win game becuase we've always been chasing the pack.

 

Yes Leeds and Charlton wobbled. But Leeds had 7 fresh players against us after playing their midweek JPT. Miles ahead in the league, but having the common sense to rest their players for what was really important. Even Paul Lambert commented upon us sacrificing the league for the JPT, verified by Pardew.

 

As for Gillet you like him fine but he is pants IMO I'd rather we'd play Wotton. The 4-5-1 didn't seem to work very well I went to several matches where we only got going once we went 4-4-2. We played with 4-5-1 and while we might get a lot of the ball we couldn't do anything with it, as soon as we swopped to 4-4-2 we got goals. So I imagine the manager came to the same conclusion as me. I'm not going to blame the manager for Conolloy not staying fit I'd of been more upset if hadn't tried to put a player of Conolly's calibare on the pitch as often as possible.

 

It's not about whether you like Gillett, I am not worried whether he stays or goes. Just the fact it is incredibly stupid not to take that option when you have mounting injuries and problems in that area, with such a heavy fixture list coming up. 451 did not seem to work? well I went to those home games and although we changed to 442 in the second half, it did the job. But the main point about starting 451 was that we were never overrun in midfield and still created buckets of chances. MK Dons hardly had a kick such was our control, but squeeked in a goal, only to succomb with the 442 second half. The killer being that it worked so well that it got us within touching distance of the play offs. What did not work as well was starting with the same 442 we played in the second halves after starting 451, something you completely over look. Only an idiot throws away a system that works for one that does not, briefly returns with success then throws it away again. Why would anyone take the risk with Connolly when it was working perfectly well as it was?

 

Also can't agree about cups. I hate this modern obbsession with all wanting to get back to the EPL and ignoring the cups. I grew up loving the FA cup, and while the carling and JPT are not quite in the same calibre I still would love to win them. I'd be more than happy if I was offered mid table every year in the coke-a-cola with the guarntee of winning one cup competition every year.

 

Forget the other cups, the JPT was the only viable option this season. Anyone who would swap that for the play offs has got out of touch with reality. Both are played at Wembley, but only one has any real merit. You could say there is no guarantee of prioritising with the play offs, but equally that argument extends to the JPT. Thankfully the CEO has the same opinion.

 

For someone so articulate, Pardew demonstrates a severe lack of smarts in these issues. We never gave ourselves a decent chance, compare that with Leeds trying to ride out their sticky patch now? How much sense does resting those players look like now, even though miles ahead in the league at the time?

[CB Fry]

sorry for being wrong about Fergie, that clearly makes all the difference!

 

So what was our target at the start of the season? Was it seriously the PO's, if it was then whoever set it knows F all about football.

 

Jesus, after what we (the fans, the players and most importantly the infrastructure) have gone through in the last 4 years you really think having AP as manager and buying Ricky Lambert should suddenly make us at least the 2nd best team in the league (the gap between 2nd and 6th being the 10 point we lost) immediately, deluded my friend, deluded!

 

 

Eh? Being within 10 points of the play offs would be "par" for the resources our club have. We're therefore below par.

 

And Cortese and Pardew were aiming for the play offs at the start of the season, so it's them that are deluded.

 

And you're deluded for thinking we are somehow more unfortunate a football club than, say, Swindon, Millwall, Colchester (Colchester!), Wallsall, MK Dons and Huddersfield. You can bleat on about how we didn't have a pre-season (diddums) but al of those clubs and many more would kill to have what we have.

 

And finally, not sure what the "with all we've been through....." line is anything other than defeatest guff. If we were still skint and slowly rebuilding post admin then fair enough.

 

But we're not - we are in excellerated growth. We are blowing other teams out of the water with single players that cost more than Swindon's entire team.

 

But don't let that stop you going on about how helpless pathetic and hopeless it is for Britains unluckiest football club.

[CB Fry]

 

Most teams get new players from time to time, whether they are cost a million or not, - is that wrong?

Lambert is top scorer in the League - bad buy ?

Fonte looks to be the best CH we've had in quite a few years - bad buy ?

Puncheon is one of the most creative players since the millenium - bad buy ?

 

 

Most teams in L1 actually don't buy any players. Lots of frees, lots of loans.

 

And no one in L1 has bought a player for £1m for about five years since Bristol City I think did it in the mid 2000s.

 

Obviously I'm not saying any of those players are bad buys but they cost money.

 

And it's the favoured arse-achingly boring cliche of the lot that money doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

 

Well I think it's made a difference to us and I am grateful for it. I don't make out it is an irrelevence.

 

Well in a funny way I wish we'd were still skint because you'd be bleating a different tune then.

Edited 19 March, 2010 by CB Fry

[saint_stevo]

people using lawrie mac as an example because he got relegated...where were you at the start of the season in support of Wotte..? where was your "lawrie got relegated give him time" lines then..?

 

wotte clearly had no chance last season seeing as being good enough for about 6-8th in league 1 meant replacing near enough the whole team/squad from last season

 

I don't reckon Wotte would have done much differently to how Pardew is doing now, IMO

[doddisalegend]

What you are effectively saying is that Pardew has no influence or control over HIS players ???

The players have to take the rap ??? Just reflect on that during the off season, when quite a few of Pardew's "Best Buys", bought for the sole purpose of reaching the play offs (Cortese), decide to move on

I honestly do not thionk that Pardew is very far up Cortese's Popular list:cool:

 

No manager has that much infleunce from the sidelines during the 90mins. He briefs his players he tell them what he wants done. If the players than stray from the plan he is left screaming at them from the sidelines or subbing them. More than likely they will get bollocked latter maybe even dropped but by then the damage is done. Harding was subbed the other day for reasons AP didn't want to go into, but the undercurrent being he wasn't doing what he was told.

 

You know this for a fact do you or are you just speculating

[Tartarus112]

So your saying we shouldn't spend any money on our team and not use the only advantage we have got? And what do u mean by Chelsea? They're top of the premiership and have been all season. They've gone from being an ok team in the top tier to champions several times. Pardew was asked if he wanted to spend the money and he's bought poorly imo.

[doddisalegend]

Most teams in L1 actually don't buy any players. Lots of frees, lots of loans.

 

And no one in L1 has bought a player for £1m for about five years since Bristol City I think did it in the mid 2000s.

 

Obviously I'm not saying any of those players are bad buys but they cost money.

 

And it's the favoured arse-achingly boring cliche of the lot that money doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

 

Well I think it's made a difference to us and I am grateful for it. I don't make out it is an irrelevence.

 

Well in a funny way I wish we'd were still skint because you'd be bleating a different tune then.

 

Yep never known saints to pay over the odds for bad players. The point is a palyer can not be judged on his price tag alone he has to prove he is worth that money ours prehaps haven't done that that. People screaming look at the money should think, if someone had bought Pulis (or Wotton or Poke) for 2mil in January would he suddenly be a good player .......... Money should allow you to buy better players but it doesn't mean we have it's up t the players to prove it. So far only Lambert has done that (well probably Harding but he was free).

[Noodles34]

Eh? Being within 10 points of the play offs would be "par" for the resources our club have. We're therefore below par.

 

And Cortese and Pardew were aiming for the play offs at the start of the season, so it's them that are deluded.

 

And you're deluded for thinking we are somehow more unfortunate a football club than, say, Swindon, Millwall, Colchester (Colchester!), Wallsall, MK Dons and Huddersfield. You can bleat on about how we didn't have a pre-season (diddums) but al of those clubs and many more would kill to have what we have.

 

And finally, not sure what the "with all we've been through....." line is anything other than defeatest guff. If we were still skint and slowly rebuilding post admin then fair enough.

 

But we're not - we are in excellerated growth. We are blowing other teams out of the water with single players that cost more than Swindon's entire team.

 

But don't let that stop you going on about how helpless pathetic and hopeless it is for Britains unluckiest football club.

 

Sorry, just to clarify your position - so you would be okay if we were within 10 points of the PO's?

 

At what point did i say that we were a more "unfortunate club" than the likes of Swindon, Millwall....?

 

And who said we were Britains unluckiest football club?

 

However, to clarify my position, if you think that by spending x amount of money can guarantee you 'instant' success then please give me some examples of 'instant' success. We have come from a million miles behind on what Man City had to gain.

 

LIsten if you think AP is not up to it then your are entitled to your opinion (and to be fair, though i do not agree, your argument is a little more constructive than that of GS, he's just a knob), however please convince me that changing AP is the way forward, I go back to consistently the best teams in this country in the last 10 years? Both had the same manager. Thats not to say that AP should stay indefinately, but less than a season? Who else do you expect to come here with a better track record? Mourinio?

 

Please give some long term solutions to your short term concerns.

[CB Fry]

Yep never known saints to pay over the odds for bad players. The point is a palyer can not be judged on his price tag alone he has to prove he is worth that money ours prehaps haven't done that that. People screaming look at the money should think, if someone had bought Pulis (or Wotton or Poke) for 2mil in January would he suddenly be a good player .......... Money should allow you to buy better players but it doesn't mean we have it's up t the players to prove it. So far only Lambert has done that (well probably Harding but he was free).

 

 

None of that is the point though.

 

The point is there are far too many fans droning on about how unlucky we are, and look what we've been through and all that guff.

 

We are the luckiest team in the division - we've been given everything we could dream about.

 

If you blow every single team out of the water financially it is not unreasonable to expect that to be reflected on the pitch.

 

It's the same in any business on earth. You spend some money and plan to get a return on that investment.

 

There's too many Saints fans who seem to think we should spend millions and millions and millions of pounds but not expect the manager to achieve anything with that investment. Just a shrug of the shoulders and "money doesn't mean anything". Finish fifteenth. Yeah, fine. Money doesn't mean anything.

 

 

Well, one day we might have none again, and we'll see what the "money doesn't mean anything" brigade have to say then. In fact I know what they'll say.

 

They'll say: poor us, we don't stand a chance, we haven't got any money.

 

 

 

Funny, aint it.

Edited 19 March, 2010 by CB Fry
*your point about buying Pulis for £2m makes zero sense by the way.

[Noodles34]

None of that is the point though.

 

The point is there are far too many fans droning on about how unlucky we are, and look what we've been through and all that guff.

 

We are the luckiest team in the division - we've been given everything we could dream about.

 

If you blow every single team out of the water financially it is not unreasonable to expect that to be reflected on the pitch.

 

It's the same in any business on earth. You spend some money and plan to get a return on that investment.

 

There's too many Saints fans who seem to think we should spend millions and millions and millions of pounds but not expect the manager to achieve anything with that investment. Just a shrug of the shoulders and "money doesn't mean anything". Finish fifteenth. Yeah, fine. Money doesn't mean anything.

 

Well, one day we might have none again, and we'll see what the "money doesn't mean anything" brigade have to say then. In fact I know what they'll say.

 

They'll say: poor us, we don't stand a chance, we haven't got any money.

 

 

 

Funny, aint it.

 

what a load of (as you put it) "guff"

[Window Cleaner]

what a load of (as you put it) "guff"

 

Not really, Swindon don't have any money, they beat us twice though didn't they. They have about 6 players on loan from first class clubs just now, doesn't make them great players I suppose but if they can get a contract at an EPL club or Celtic I guess they're worth something.We don't seem to be able to attract that sort of loan, perhaps the parent clubs think we have too much money,

or that our coaching staff won't take their "asset" forward.Wilkins and Downes...not coaches that dreams are made of really

[CB Fry]

However, to clarify my position, if you think that by spending x amount of money can guarantee you 'instant' success then please give me some examples of 'instant' success. We have come from a million miles behind on what Man City had to gain.

 

LIsten if you think AP is not up to it then your are entitled to your opinion (and to be fair, though i do not agree, your argument is a little more constructive than that of GS, he's just a knob), however please convince me that changing AP is the way forward, I go back to consistently the best teams in this country in the last 10 years? Both had the same manager. Thats not to say that AP should stay indefinately, but less than a season? Who else do you expect to come here with a better track record? Mourinio?

 

Please give some long term solutions to your short term concerns.

 

 

Honestly, you don't need to press the cliche button so soon.

 

I don't want Pardew to leave, never ever said he should.

 

But I am fed up with people who won't accept that this season is currently below par. Being within 10 points of the play offs - ie play off form all season - is par for a club with the resources we have. We're not quite there but we might just scrape it by the end of the season.

 

At the end of the day if you can't suggest we should do better when we have spent what we have spent then when can you?

 

 

It wasn't so long ago you couldn't move on this forum for bellyaching about a previous chairman who wouldn't invest in the team "if we'd only bought Malbranque etc etc".

 

It's hilarious that when we were skint the accepted wisdom was that "investing in the team" was the way to succeed and previous chairmen were slaughted for "not investing in the team".

 

But now we are investing in the team and all anyone can say is "it doesn't mean anything, you can't get success from spending money".

 

And instead of aknowlegding what we have got, it's just whining about what we didn't get "we didn't get a pre season".

 

I bet Swindon would have sold their pre season for a £1m striker. It's rank ingratitude. Blessed with everything we could want, but still whining about one thing we didn't get.

 

 

As far as investing in the team is concerned, Nicola and Marcus shouldn't have bothered then.

 

I wish we were as skint as Millwall and Swindon.

 

Because christ you'd have some grizzling on this forum then.

Edited 19 March, 2010 by CB Fry

[Noodles34]

Not really, Swindon don't have any money, they beat us twice though didn't they. They have about 6 players on loan from first class clubs just now, doesn't make them great players I suppose but if they can get a contract at an EPL club or Celtic I guess they're worth something.We don't seem to be able to attract that sort of loan, perhaps the parent clubs think we have too much money,

or that our coaching staff won't take their "asset" forward.Wilkins and Downes...not coaches that dreams are made of really

 

I was specifically alluding to the 'bold' statement about Saints fans. As for loan players, we should be able to afford to bloody buy then now, can'[t stand this loan business, it makes a mockery out of producing your own players for one.

[Window Cleaner]

I was specifically alluding to the 'bold' statement about Saints fans. As for loan players, we should be able to afford to bloody buy then now, can'[t stand this loan business, it makes a mockery out of producing your own players for one.

 

Players we produce don't seem to be very high on Pardew's list of priorities. I think he addressed it recently, said we ned to get the first team right first and then we'll see about the academy and all that.

To me the McLaggon that we saw a few glimpses of last season is worth 3

Antonios but perhaps the injury has diminished him. It's one of my pet beefs,why have and academy and then play an 85% bought in first team.James and Lallana and that's it all the rest just cast into football's waste bin.

 

I'm so/so on Pardew, don't care if he stays or goes but we have got to get

our young players into the first team squad at least and try to play football. If I see KD punting one more free kick from half way in our own half straight into the opposing keepers grubby paws I will explode. It's a waste, so over Pardew I don't care but hoofball must stop.

[Noodles34]

Honestly, you don't need to press the cliche button so soon.

 

You don't need to give me an answer so soon...

 

I don't want Pardew to leave, never ever said he should.

 

But I am fed up with people who won't accept that this season is currently below par. Being within 10 points of the play offs - ie play off form all season - is par for a club with the resources we have.

 

At the end of the day if you can't suggest we should do better when we have spent what we have spent then when can you?

 

 

In this case, by Xmas next season

 

It wasn't so long ago you couldn't move on this forum for bellyaching about a previous chairman who wouldn't invest in the team "if we'd only bought Malbranque etc etc".

 

It's hilarious that when we were skint the accepted wisdom was that "investing in the team" was the way to succeed and previous chairmen were slaughted for not investing in the team.

 

But now we are investing in the team and all anyone can say is "it doesn't mean anything, you can't get success from spending money".

 

And instead of aknowlegding what we have got, it's just whining about what we didn't get "we didn't get a pre season".

 

I bet Swindon would have sold their pre season for a £1m striker. It's rank ingratitude. Blessed with everything we could want, but still whining about one thing we didn't get.

 

Don't understand that, no one is whining about no pre season, minus 10 points etc, they are just facts that contribute to the relative acceptance that this season is a building block for next *(sorry for the cliches again). Yes there are some like you that basically expect everything to happen instantly or even on a par and it is disappointing that nwe are not challenging for the PO's, we were in the position too and failed, no dopubt about that, but ion the greater scheme of things why did NC say we have a 5 year plan to get to the PL? When he said that everyone thought he was being realistic etc, now its changed seemingly and you and others are slating people for being in tune to his original plan.

 

As far as investing in the team is concerned, Nicola and Marcus shouldn't have bothered then.

 

I wish we were as skint as Millwall and Swindon.

 

Because christ you'd have some grizzling on this forum then.

 

You'll always have grizzling on Football Forums, its called being a football fan. And who is doing the grizzling, initially GS and you, the tread was actually written positevely to start with, only you and a few others are doing the "grizzling"

[Noodles34]

Players we produce don't seem to be very high on Pardew's list of priorities. I think he addressed it recently, said we ned to get the first team right first and then we'll see about the academy and all that.

To me the McLaggon that we saw a few glimpses of last season is worth 3

Antonios but perhaps the injury has diminished him. It's one of my pet beefs,why have and academy and then play an 85% bought in first team.James and Lallana and that's it all the rest just cast into football's waste bin.

 

I'm so/so on Pardew, don't care if he stays or goes but we have got to get

our young players into the first team squad at least and try to play football. If I see KD punting one more free kick from half way in our own half straight into the opposing keepers grubby paws I will explode. It's a waste, so over Pardew I don't care but hoofball must stop.

 

hoofball, are you sure? Not all pretty granted, but some of our football on Tuesday was exquisite, maybe not effective, but good on the eye all the same.

[Window Cleaner]

hoofball, are you sure? Not all pretty granted, but some of our football on Tuesday was exquisite, maybe not effective, but good on the eye all the same.

 

 

To me we hoof more than we play. We put together some good movements but

we do hit a lot of long ball to ..no-one although I guess it's supposed to be for Lambert.It's no doubt about education but playing as we do we will always lose possession too easily. It allows teams to press us because we just can't keep the ball. It's the mentality that passing backwards or sideways rather than lose possession is something shameful that does it. That comes from the coaches not the players. If the opponents are getting on top of you you need to make them chase shadows for a while, 15 -18 passes strung together will soon calm them down, as Swindon showed us.That's not decided by the players on the spur of the moment, our manager has obviously instructed them to get the ball forward instantly.

[sadoldgit]

Critisism is fine as long as it is reasonable. Some here think it is reasonable to threaten violence to people at the club they don't like which I would say was unreasonable.

 

Also talking of sacking a new manager after a few games is unreasonable. McMenemy ued to get stick but I don't recall many wanting him sacked. Now it is the quick fix answer - managers have to deliver instant success or a proportion of the fanbase want them out of the door.

[Glasgow_Saint]

I don't reckon Wotte would have done much differently to how Pardew is doing now, IMO

 

I actually think Wotte may well have done much better - to spend the money we have, have the squad we have and to be so far behind the top 8 sides is borderline criminal.

 

AP will acknowledge that he has failed this season (at some stage) NC will then publically back him. Behind the scenes however AP will be told "top 2 or bye bye" regards next season.

 

Any doubts that we may fail to achieve top 2 and AP will be gone by the end of 2010

 

I hope he can do it as the thought of one more season in L1 is bad, if he fails again next season then we could face 2 years more in L1.

 

Come on AP get it together :cool:

[harwellsaint]

Exactly! This is how GS would do it, AP is rubbish, get rid. New Manager, new players etc, six months we are mid table and so get rid, new manager, new players, 6 months in, 10th, get rid. We had someone here like that before, he was well great that bloke!

 

he was well great that bloke, no wonder your megazane wont boost, your grandma is torrible

[saintjinksie]

is a favourite pastime of frustrated fans ..and chairmen.

Fans who faithfully attend every match they possible can, and then see a poor performance are often quick to criticise; manager, players or even referees - when their team doesn't pick up 3 points every game.

Lawrie McMenemy (argueably the most successful Saints manager ever) was once quoted as saying..."as manager, you can never never win. If the team gets the points, fans say - the team played well, if they lose - it's my fault 'cos I picked them ", and McMenemy was no stranger to criticism both during and after his 13 years at the club - which started with a relegation!

 

Success has been a rare visitor to SFC in recent decades. Seasons 1976, and 1983/4 were highpoints of the past that were rarely repeated. Enormous support in the 99 "Great Escape" season - when we JUST avoided Prem relegation, and extra boost with ONE good year with Gordon Strachan. Much sadness since, but now we seem to be on the up again.

This current team has won more games than any other team in the last 26 years...and it's only March - poor performance?

 

Building a team, like building a house isn't easier because you employ more bricklayers / or spend money on new players. It takes time to do a good job. Neither Cortese or, Pardew had any idea what they were getting into when they tried to re-float a club last August that started with -10 points. IMHO they have both done excellent jobs in their own way.

 

Throwing money at a problem doesn't solve it either- as Roman A. has found at Chelsea, and losing patience and sacking a manager in anger was a bad decision that came home to roost for him on Wednesday night.

 

After 50 years as a fan...I am perhaps more philosophical than some, and many olders fans have seen more change, euphoria and turmoil than many of our younger supporters can ever imagine. If patience is a virtue then it better be a quality that we need to acquire because I'm sure that even if by some miracle, we got promoted this season,some people would be criticising the manager whose team was ONLY 10th in the CCC - next season !

 

 

I think you will find that abramovich had a sh*rte manager and didnt win the league, then appointed a quality manager and won the league. i am all for following abramovich, sack pardew and appoint a better manager. Gary johnson is available.

[The Majestic Channon]

I actually think Wotte may well have done much better - to spend the money we have, have the squad we have and to be so far behind the top 8 sides is borderline criminal.

 

AP will acknowledge that he has failed this season (at some stage) NC will then publically back him. Behind the scenes however AP will be told "top 2 or bye bye" regards next season.

 

Any doubts that we may fail to achieve top 2 and AP will be gone by the end of 2010

 

I hope he can do it as the thought of one more season in L1 is bad, if he fails again next season then we could face 2 years more in L1.

 

Come on AP get it together :cool:

Why? what qualities did you see in him? where is he now by the way?

Give me strength.

[derry]

Swindon were neat and tidy and had a basic team pattern, passing the ball around playing pass and move working it through our back four.

 

It was our tactic that caused us problems. Pardew, yet again tucked the wide midfielders alongside the central midfielders, denying them the option of spreading the play quickly and getting forward in support of the strikers.

 

The compaction of our midfield led to a compaction of their defence/midfield which led to a traffic jam and nowhere for us to go when we got possession, except up front, give it back to Swindon and watch them pass it around. Swindon didn't double bank Puncheon and Lallana, they did it themselves by tucking in.

 

If the manager wanted them out wide he would have got them out there but he didn't. He just doesn't get it, unless we spread the opposition out we can't pass the ball, consequently hoofing it. That together with Davis doing the same is tedious.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Ok we should all go and support manure then, As GS pointed you don't pick your club it picks you. It's unfotrunate we've all been picked by one that is never going to be the best, or even the second best. All those fans of clubs outside the top four in the EPL might as well give up. Hoping/wanting your club to do its best is alot different to excpecting it to be the best.

 

I could hardly disagree more - the top EPL clubs (Chelsea excluded perhaps) are where they are precisely because historically they have refused to accept mediocrity in all it's many forms . You seem to have missed the crucial difference between actually being the best (arguably only one club can be that at any point in time) and the principle of constantly striving to be the best . I see no good reason why we shouldn't expect (not merely desire) that our club should one day become a successful Premier League club again - I'm pretty sure Nicola Cortese and Markus Liebherr do expect exactly that .

 

As for the specific question of criticising Alan Pardew , my view is that I both want and expect him to lead us into the next season - I also both want and expect his expensive team to perform much better next season than it has for much of this - and if it doesn't then not only will he certainly be on the receiving end of sustained criticism - he'll very probably deserve it .

 

Nothing is complete and thus nothing is exempt from criticism - James Luther Adams .

[derry]

Changing managers isn't in itself wrong, but keeping one that isn't the long term answer is.

 

Norwich changed after one game and are going to win promotion. I submit that Cortese didn't have much time and went for Steve Coppell, as soon as Coppell decided not to come he needed to immediately get a replacement. He didn't have the option to take his time and had to take somebody using others opinions. Pardew was the result.

 

It is very probable that now eight months on and a chance to talk to many more people and see who is around and what he wants for the club he is in a much better position to select a manager. I doubt that Pardew would be that manager if the selection was now.

 

It has to be recognised that Gray, Wigley (twice), Sturrock weren't sensible selections for a Premier club whilst Hoddle was. Picking a manager that improves is sensible.

[derry]

I could hardly disagree more - the top EPL clubs (Chelsea excluded perhaps) are where they are precisely because historically they have refused to accept mediocrity in all it's many forms . You seem to have missed the crucial difference between actually being the best (arguably only one club can be that at any point in time) and the principle of constantly striving to be the best . I see no good reason why we shouldn't expect (not merely desire) that our club should one day become a successful Premier League club again - I'm pretty sure Nicola Cortese and Markus Liebherr do expect exactly that .

 

As for the specific question of criticising Alan Pardew , my view is that I both want and expect him to lead us into the next season - I also both want and expect his expensive team to perform much better next season than it has for much of this - and if it doesn't then not only will he certainly be on the receiving end of sustained criticism - he'll very probably deserve it .

 

If Cortese doesn't feel that Pardew has moulded the team by the end of the season to be capable of winning the league then he should make the change then, not in mid season when things aren't working out.

 

Conversely if he does think this team is the real deal and Pardew is the man to lead them, then no change.

[SaintRichmond]

Critisism is fine as long as it is reasonable. Some here think it is reasonable to threaten violence to people at the club they don't like which I would say was unreasonable.

 

Also talking of sacking a new manager after a few games is unreasonable. McMenemy ued to get stick but I don't recall many wanting him sacked. Now it is the quick fix answer - managers have to deliver instant success or a proportion of the fanbase want them out of the door.

 

Really ???

 

Took over from Ted Bates when the team were SIXTH, then we all watched as we slid down the table into Relegation

 

Whoose fault ???Oh yeah, the players. The fact that they were "guided" by tehe "Manager" goes by the board,

 

OK we won the FA Cup in 76, but if you are realistic, you would admit we had all the luck going for us that day ( yes, I WAS there)

 

Bit different scenario than Pardew's. He got money to buy good players. Players that a lot of clubs would have loved to get

 

And from THAT position, he opted for the JPT over the League

 

Ask any Fan now, and all you will get is how much they are looking forward to the 28th BUT

 

I bet, come Monday, whether we win or lose, the REALITY of another season in Division 1 ( The Third level of UK Football ) will sink in

 

And it will sink in to a lot of the current Squad as well

 

We have seen all that Pardew has to offer, and, from a Business point of view ( which is how we are run now ), what he has to offer falls well short of taking the Saints Forward

 

HIS assembled Squad have dropped far to many points. The inescapable fact is, we were closer to the play offs at Xmas, with our "old" Squad, than we are now

 

NOT acceptable to Cortese, not acceptable to me, and it should NOT be acceptable to Saints Fans generally

 

The British "well we did our best" doesn't cut it any more. ANYTHING less than Success in Division 1 is Krap, especially with the Squad Pardew has had since January :cool:

[CanadaSaint]

Norwich changed after one game and are going to win promotion. I submit that Cortese didn't have much time and went for Steve Coppell, as soon as Coppell decided not to come he needed to immediately get a replacement. He didn't have the option to take his time and had to take somebody using others opinions. Pardew was the result.

 

Thinking back, Dave, I suspect you're dead right. There was clearly contact with Coppell because he kept appearing in the directors' box - even after Pardew was appointed. My hunch is that he was offered the job and his answer wasn't "No" but "Not right now", so AP was Cortese's second choice because he couldn't wait.

 

My worry, and I've posted this before, is that Cortese is caught in a void. He isn't quite angry enough to fire Pardew and he knows most of the fans seem to like him, but he isn't impressed enough with Pardew to let him loose with much more transfer cash in the Summer.

 

That raises the spectre of a disappointing start to the season because we haven't done much to improve the squad in key areas, and a disappointing start to the season would result in Pardew being fired and another "catch the leaders" exercise.

 

Watching from afar, I'd be surprised if Cortese stays in that void. He's impatient and impulsive, and any bad result at or after Wembley could see the axe fall.

[derry]

Thinking back, Dave, I suspect you're dead right. There was clearly contact with Coppell because he kept appearing in the directors' box - even after Pardew was appointed. My hunch is that he was offered the job and his answer wasn't "No" but "Not right now", so AP was Cortese's second choice because he couldn't wait.

 

My worry, and I've posted this before, is that Cortese is caught in a void. He isn't quite angry enough to fire Pardew and he knows most of the fans seem to like him, but he isn't impressed enough with Pardew to let him loose with much more transfer cash in the Summer.

 

That raises the spectre of a disappointing start to the season because we haven't done much to improve the squad in key areas, and a disappointing start to the season would result in Pardew being fired and another "catch the leaders" exercise.

 

Watching from afar, I'd be surprised if Cortese stays in that void. He's impatient and impulsive, and any bad result at or after Wembley could see the axe fall.

 

Spot on. My information is that Coppell accepted the job and after all the negotiations were complete, was on his way down to sign the contract. He apparently then had second thoughts, decided he was going to go with his original plan and take a break, then contacted the club.

[Noodles34]

he was well great that bloke, no wonder your megazane wont boost, your grandma is torrible

 

nice one!

[madruss]

Changing managers isn't in itself wrong, but keeping one that isn't the long term answer is.

 

Norwich changed after one game and are going to win promotion. I submit that Cortese didn't have much time and went for Steve Coppell, as soon as Coppell decided not to come he needed to immediately get a replacement. He didn't have the option to take his time and had to take somebody using others opinions. Pardew was the result.

 

It is very probable that now eight months on and a chance to talk to many more people and see who is around and what he wants for the club he is in a much better position to select a manager. I doubt that Pardew would be that manager if the selection was now.

 

It has to be recognised that Gray, Wigley (twice), Sturrock weren't sensible selections for a Premier club whilst Hoddle was. Picking a manager that improves is sensible.

 

Norwich changed after about 20 odd games of consistent failure by Gunn, the team, the results, and the performances were getting worse and they got relegated. It was a matter of when, not if Gunn was going to get sacked.

 

Anyway my point is that if Pardew's side was seen to be getting worse, results were deteriorating, we were conceding more goals, and scoring less then yes it would be right to be concerned.

 

However the fact is we have improved over the course of the season, and the results stand up to that (compare Huddersfield away vs Huddersfield at home for example). Yes we need to be more consistent, and improve on dodgy away pitches, but no-one could objectively deny there's been improvement over the course of the season.

 

IMO, Pardew should be judged on a full season (including pre-season). If the first few months of next season show worrying signs of deterioration, then I don't think anyone will have any complaints if NC wields the axe

[doddisalegend]

Swindon were neat and tidy and had a basic team pattern, passing the ball around playing pass and move working it through our back four.

 

It was our tactic that caused us problems. Pardew, yet again tucked the wide midfielders alongside the central midfielders, denying them the option of spreading the play quickly and getting forward in support of the strikers.

 

The compaction of our midfield led to a compaction of their defence/midfield which led to a traffic jam and nowhere for us to go when we got possession, except up front, give it back to Swindon and watch them pass it around. Swindon didn't double bank Puncheon and Lallana, they did it themselves by tucking in.

 

If the manager wanted them out wide he would have got them out there but he didn't. He just doesn't get it, unless we spread the opposition out we can't pass the ball, consequently hoofing it. That together with Davis doing the same is tedious.

 

Wierd the match I saw Puncheon spent a lot of time glued to the line but he spent to much time trying to dribble past the Swindon players and losing it rather than passing it quicker. He only moved in to the midfield late on after the formation changes brought on by the subs. Funny how we also the same game differently.

[derry]

Wierd the match I saw Puncheon spent a lot of time glued to the line but he spent to much time trying to dribble past the Swindon players and losing it rather than passing it quicker. He only moved in to the midfield late on after the formation changes brought on by the subs. Funny how we also the same game differently.

 

Lallana and Puncheon were at times on the touchline but the whole team had come across and were still causing a traffic jam on one side with nobody wide on the other. The wide midfielders were still tucked in. Swindon on the other hand spread out and moved the ball around as soon as they gained possession, with players wide both sides, plus runners in the channels.

[doddisalegend]

I could hardly disagree more - the top EPL clubs (Chelsea excluded perhaps) are where they are precisely because historically they have refused to accept mediocrity in all it's many forms . You seem to have missed the crucial difference between actually being the best (arguably only one club can be that at any point in time) and the principle of constantly striving to be the best . I see no good reason why we shouldn't expect (not merely desire) that our club should one day become a successful Premier League club again - I'm pretty sure Nicola Cortese and Markus Liebherr do expect exactly that .

 

As for the specific question of criticising Alan Pardew , my view is that I both want and expect him to lead us into the next season - I also both want and expect his expensive team to perform much better next season than it has for much of this - and if it doesn't then not only will he certainly be on the receiving end of sustained criticism - he'll very probably deserve it .

 

Sorry again when were we a successful EPL club? unless by success you mean avoiding relegation year after year, being knocked out of all the cup compitions and finishing eigth once. This is what it comes down to its fine to be mediocre and poor as long as we're doing it in the EPL. people on here talking about wanting succsess and not excepting second best really seem to mean "second best is ok as long as I'm watching Liverpool beat us"

[CB Fry]

Norwich changed after about 20 odd games of consistent failure by Gunn, the team, the results, and the performances were getting worse and they got relegated. It was a matter of when, not if Gunn was going to get sacked.

 

 

That would be why they gave him transfer funds and a pre season to prepare for the following season then

 

Gunn was given one game.

[CB Fry]

Sorry again when were we a successful EPL club? unless by success you mean avoiding relegation year after year, being knocked out of all the cup compitions and finishing eigth once. This is what it comes down to its fine to be mediocre and poor as long as we're doing it in the EPL. people on here talking about wanting succsess and not excepting second best really seem to mean "second best is ok as long as I'm watching Liverpool beat us"

 

 

So bumming around around 10th in the third tier you see as some kind of triumph but you are nitpicking our record in the biggest league in the world?

 

So you think we should have been challenging for the top four with Ken Monkou, Hassan Kachloul, Robbie Slater and Chris Marsden in our team?

 

So success only exists in the lower leagues

[dune]

In Italy they tend to go for older managers, wheras in this country there's been a recent trend to go for younger managers. With NC being Italian and having links with Italian football I wouldnt be surprised if any replacement is an experienced manager - possibly one with international experience. I give you Steve McClaren.

[doddisalegend]

So bumming around around 10th in the third tier you see as some kind of triumph but you are nitpicking our record in the biggest league in the world?

 

So you think we should have been challenging for the top four with Ken Monkou, Hassan Kachloul, Robbie Slater and Chris Marsden in our team?

 

So success only exists in the lower leagues

 

Not what I'm saying at all. People need to be honest giving it all this crap about not accepting second best, when what they mean is I'm happy with second best as long as its in the EPL. If thats the case fine but be honest. Trying to make out our years in the top flight were some kind of embarrsment of riches and we were succsessful is wearing glasses of a very rose tinted hue.

 

Oh and Chris Mardsden = ****ing legend

Edited 19 March, 2010 by doddisalegend