Keep the faith (expectation management)

[Alain Perrin]

We're not going to win the league, we're not going to get to the playoffs, but we might survive.

 

One thing is certain though, without the fans supporting we won't survive and there won't be a Southampton FC in 5 years time.

 

Out of the games I have seen this season (all home, one away) I have seen positive displays (not results) in all but 3 of them (Blackpool and Barnsley: poor; Ipswich mediocre).

 

What though did we expect? Personally I think expectations are too high at the moment (not helped by total football performances against Birmingham and Derby) and need to be re-alligned.

 

We can still survive, then if we sort out our finances, build for the future. But, we need to keep the faith.

[Wes Tender]

Does this need a new thread, or could it just as easily have been a post on several other threads?

[Alain Perrin]

Does this need a new thread, or could it just as easily have been a post on several other threads?

 

The same could be said about your reply

[Scummer]

The same could be said about your reply

 

That doesn't make any sense. Or is this just an attempt to bump a thread that no-one can be bothered to respond to?

[once_bitterne]

Indeed. From the start of pre-season it was obvious that there were only two targets this season and both were surivial, survial in this league and financial survival.

 

However, after a good pre-season game against the Hammers and beating the woeful Derby at Pride Park, some fans reverted to 'we'll walk this league' type and now we have few bad results some have swung just as far the other way....

 

The situation is the same as it was. We have a chance of staying up this year and if we do and if we can avoid administration we will have a much better chance of improving on things next season.

[70's Mike]

Indeed. From the start of pre-season it was obvious that there were only two targets this season and both were surivial, survial in this league and financial survival.

 

However, after a good pre-season game against the Hammers and beating the woeful Derby at Pride Park, some fans reverted to 'we'll walk this league' type and now we have few bad results some have swung just as far the other way....

 

The situation is the same as it was. We have a chance of staying up this year and if we do and if we can avoid administration we will have a much better chance of improving on things next season.

 

Lots of if's

[alpine_saint]

We have a chance of staying up this year and if we do and if we can avoid administration we will have a much better chance of improving on things next season.

 

Why ?

 

What's going to be better next year ?

 

This theory is complete bolllocks.

[Alain Perrin]

Why ?

 

What's going to be better next year ?

 

This theory is complete bolllocks.

 

 

The theory sadly only holds if we manage to sell enough of our young playing assets to make a dent on the debt, whilst still having a team that can consolidate and progress.

 

Kind of a "chopping off your leg but leaving enough to still walk on" strategy.

 

Unfortunately (without a sugar daddy) I can't see much alternative.

[Alain Perrin]

That doesn't make any sense. Or is this just an attempt to bump a thread that no-one can be bothered to respond to?

 

Clearly you could, and I am thankful for that. However I am not sure your comment adds a huge amount to the debate either....

[GreenTreeFrog]

We're not going to win the league, we're not going to get to the playoffs, but we might survive.

 

One thing is certain though, without the fans supporting we won't survive and there won't be a Southampton FC in 5 years time.

 

Out of the games I have seen this season (all home, one away) I have seen positive displays (not results) in all but 3 of them (Blackpool and Barnsley: poor; Ipswich mediocre).

 

What though did we expect? Personally I think expectations are too high at the moment (not helped by total football performances against Birmingham and Derby) and need to be re-alligned.

 

We can still survive, then if we sort out our finances, build for the future. But, we need to keep the faith.

 

You are absolutely right. It was always going to be a long hard season as far as I was concerned and while the start has been very disappointing it was not exactly a bolt out of the blue. This season is going to be about learning and the development of players. If this young(ish) team manages to avoid relegation they have done as well as last years players managed. Things should improve as the players get match experience and the manager gets to understand best how to use the players he has available.

 

It’s not as if we have a realistic alternative anyway. There is no one willing to ‘invest’ (a crazy word when related to buying a football club) the money to make the difference needed. People speak of getting in experienced players but we had that last year and had to pay them £10.5 million in wages for the dross they served up.

 

I live near Burnley and the club have put out adverts in the Arabian business media in an attempt to get new money in. Burnley are already part financed by a multi millionaire fan, Brendan Flood, but he says he cannot continue spending £4 million a year to cover Burnley’s annual losses. They have cut the wage bill to £7.3 million and even before the crowds dwindled to around 10,000 and the finance manager said the club is struggling to survive and needs to find alternative revenue steams.

 

They have no mortgage on the stadium and a multimillionaire backing them but are still ‘paddling frantically to stay above water’ (actual quote from finance manager). We are not alone in our desperation and though many think there is an easy answer (investment) it is clear there is not.

[simo]

You are absolutely right. It was always going to be a long hard season as far as I was concerned and while the start has been very disappointing it was not exactly a bolt out of the blue. This season is going to be about learning and the development of players. If this young(ish) team manages to avoid relegation they have done as well as last years players managed. Things should improve as the players get match experience and the manager gets to understand best how to use the players he has available.

 

It’s not as if we have a realistic alternative anyway. There is no one willing to ‘invest’ (a crazy word when related to buying a football club) the money to make the difference needed. People speak of getting in experienced players but we had that last year and had to pay them £10.5 million in wages for the dross they served up.

 

I live near Burnley and the club have put out adverts in the Arabian business media in an attempt to get new money in. Burnley are already part financed by a multi millionaire fan, Brendan Flood, but he says he cannot continue spending £4 million a year to cover Burnley’s annual losses. They have cut the wage bill to £7.3 million and even before the crowds dwindled to around 10,000 and the finance manager said the club is struggling to survive and needs to find alternative revenue steams.

 

They have no mortgage on the stadium and a multimillionaire backing them but are still ‘paddling frantically to stay above water’ (actual quote from finance manager). We are not alone in our desperation and though many think there is an easy answer (investment) it is clear there is not.

 

I think the word your looking for is spunk!

[um pahars]

It’s not as if we have a realistic alternative anyway. There is no one willing to ‘invest’ (a crazy word when related to buying a football club) the money to make the difference needed. People speak of getting in experienced players but we had that last year and had to pay them £10.5 million in wages for the dross they served up.

 

Of course there's an alternative.

 

Finances may dictate that some routes that we may want to go down are blocked off, but there are many other routes we could follow.

 

As for last year, well we had a manager who couldn't be ar5sed along with a bunch of players who then took his lead.

 

Just because one set of experienced players couldn't be ar5sed doesn't mean they are all like that. Perry and Davis look up for it, and have to say Darren Moore looked his usual committed self on Saturday

 

Additionally, I think you'll find that most people are asking for a balance of old wise experienced players (who still have some passion and a sense of professionalism about them) mixed in with some of the better youngsters.

 

Just to say the dice have been rolled and that's it, is totally uninspiring, and rather naive. Tactics, motivation, signings, loans, fitness and a whole other myriad of things can impact on our performances.

[sadoldgit]

Why ?

 

What's going to be better next year ?

 

This theory is complete bolllocks.

 

What is going to be worse? Oh yes, I forgot, you have crystal ball.

 

I think most rational people realise that it takes time to build when you don't have shedloads of cash and need to get the most out of what you have got. We were never going to be world beaters this season but if we can keep the best of the young players together and pick up the odd bargain, eventually we might just build a decent side. Because it hasn't happend by the end of September it doesn't mean it will not happen in the future.

 

Of course the doom merchants can't wait to see JP fail....how many competitive matches have we played? Managers at our club get written off earlier each season.

 

If you have no patience go and support Manchester City.

[Guest Hacienda]

At the start of this seasons my expectations were for this season to be better than last.

 

The football we are playing is better but I fear the final position will be worse.

[GreenTreeFrog]

Of course there's an alternative.

 

Finances may dictate that some routes that we may want to go down are blocked off, but there are many other routes we could follow.

 

As for last year, well we had a manager who couldn't be ar5sed along with a bunch of players who then took his lead.

 

Just because one set of experienced players couldn't be ar5sed doesn't mean they are all like that. Perry and Davis look up for it, and have to say Darren Moore looked his usual committed self on Saturday

 

Additionally, I think you'll find that most people are asking for a balance of old wise experienced players (who still have some passion and a sense of professionalism about them) mixed in with some of the better youngsters.

 

Just to say the dice have been rolled and that's it, is totally uninspiring, and rather naive. Tactics, motivation, signings, loans, fitness and a whole other myriad of things can impact on our performances.

 

 

I did say ‘realistic alternative’ but maybe ‘significantly different alternative’ would have better expressed my meaning.

 

You have mentioned in many threads that there are plenty of options we could have taken but never give any form of detail (in those I have seen) of exactly how these ‘other options’ would work. Instead you tend to reply with something like, ‘So the only option open to us was to employ a Dutch manager with no experience and play a team of kids………’

 

Well no of course no one would suggest it was ‘literally’ the only option, we could have kept Pearson on for example. But he would still be using basically the same players and we would still be screaming out for a proven striker capable of 20 goals or more a season and still want the defence strengthening. But we can’t even afford the wages of such players, no matter the transfer fees, so it is all just wishful thinking and things would ‘likely’ be much the same as they are now.

 

In your post you have brought up many criticisms that are nothing to do with the thread or anything written in my post. You seem to be putting words into my mouth. I never said the older players should not start so not sure what you are arguing about there.

 

You also said: “Just to say the dice have been rolled and that's it, is totally uninspiring, and rather naïve.” Where exactly have I said, or even remotely implied anything like that? If anything that may be used to sum up your belief quite well. We have played 7 games, and from your comments here and on other threads, it seems you believe the young inexperienced players should be up to speed now or they never will be. Isn’t it possible they MAY get better after a few more months? Not certain, but possible? Isn’t it uninspiring, even naïve, to suggest they have shown us all they can ever become in their first 7 games?

 

I would hope that any manager would give new players time to fit in. Even if we had a team of old pros and Pearson was in charge I would have expect all reasonable supporters to give the players time to get to know each others strengths and weaknesses and therefore develop as an effective team. So of course I am going to think a whole host of inexperienced players might just need more than 7 games to reach their peak.

 

I believe the players will improve as the season progresses and the manager gets to know his best team (which will likely include Perry, Moore and Davis) and the best tactical substitutions or changes to try when things aren’t quite going right. Ialso have always thought it was going to be a long hard season but would be a lot better next season – yes in the Championship.

 

Down with relegation!

[GreenTreeFrog]

At the start of this seasons my expectations were for this season to be better than last.

 

The football we are playing is better but I fear the final position will be worse.

 

To me that seems to be a perfectly reasonable expectation and a perfectly valid fear. To some though it seems the season can be judged after only 7 games and is over already. I just hope our players have a bit more mental strength than that or else it really is all over.

[alpine_saint]

What is going to be worse? Oh yes, I forgot, you have crystal ball.

 

I think most rational people realise that it takes time to build when you don't have shedloads of cash and need to get the most out of what you have got. We were never going to be world beaters this season but if we can keep the best of the young players together and pick up the odd bargain, eventually we might just build a decent side. Because it hasn't happend by the end of September it doesn't mean it will not happen in the future.

 

Of course the doom merchants can't wait to see JP fail....how many competitive matches have we played? Managers at our club get written off earlier each season.

 

If you have no patience go and support Manchester City.

 

Ah yes, the old ****** about supporting another club if you dare to criticise. How original...

 

You are utterly deluded if you think Lowe wont flog off any young players that come through. Lallana is already good as gone in January. And how you think the club will deal with (let alone build on) another year of loss-making with these attendances, well you are completely bonkers....

 

No-one wants JP to fail, but you should expect quite a few people taking a peverse pleasure at seeing egg on Lowe's face if he does. And I admit I am one of them. Every cloud has its silver lining.

[um pahars]

You have mentioned in many threads that there are plenty of options we could have taken but never give any form of detail (in those I have seen) of exactly how these ‘other options’ would work. Instead you tend to reply with something like, ‘So the only option open to us was to employ a Dutch manager with no experience and play a team of kids………’

 

I can only assume you haven't read all the posts, have trouble understanding them or are perhaps being obtuse.

 

I have posed a number of alternatives, a number of suggestions, but I think it is also fair to say that when in "opposition" and not in the corridors of power, it is rather hard to come up with a fully fledged alternative business plan.

 

However, this season has clearly seen the emphasis being put on youth. From the signings of Forecast, Scheiderlin, Cork, Holmes, Pekhart, to the pre season friendlies which were mainly staffed with "youngsters" playing a style that suited them.

 

For me, youth is important, but I believe it will only work if augmented by a number of senior players with experience to guide them along. So one of my priorities would have been to acquire a number of seasoned players on frees. Our finances are tight, but I am sure that there is some leeway to have been able to make this happen.

 

My priority before I signed another youngster (Forecast, Holmes, Scheoderlin, Cork, Pekhart etc) would be to get some old heads in first.

 

Then of course we come on to managers. I personally would have appointed someone with more knowledge of what he was letting himself in for. I don't believe that this was a season for letting our manaer learn "on the job". With enough problems around the place, we needed to hit the ground running.

 

After that, there's tactics, motivation, loans, and a whole host of thigns that could be done differently.

 

Well no of course no one would suggest it was ‘literally’ the only option, we could have kept Pearson on for example. But he would still be using basically the same players and we would still be screaming out for a proven striker capable of 20 goals or more a season and still want the defence strengthening. But we can’t even afford the wages of such players, no matter the transfer fees, so it is all just wishful thinking and things would ‘likely’ be much the same as they are now.

 

Lazy and naive.

 

Pearson (or anyone) could have decided to go nuclear and put everyone on the transfer list. Not signed any of the 8 we did. Not given contracts to others (e.g. Dyer) etc etc etc. Of course, we would still be stuck with some of the deadwood, but to suggest we would have had the same team is rather naive.

 

Additionally, a different manager can make such a difference to the same set of players (even without any personnel changes). That's what makes a good manager.

 

If things "would ‘likely’ be much the same as they are now", the maybe we should have saved on JP's & MW's and got Ginger from Mottisfont in (managers can, and do, moake a difference).

 

In your post you have brought up many criticisms that are nothing to do with the thread or anything written in my post. You seem to be putting words into my mouth. I never said the older players should not start so not sure what you are arguing about there.

 

Wat did you inferring by "we had that last year" and "dross"???

 

You also said: “Just to say the dice have been rolled and that's it, is totally uninspiring, and rather naïve.” Where exactly have I said, or even remotely implied anything like that? If anything that may be used to sum up your belief quite well. We have played 7 games, and from your comments here and on other threads, it seems you believe the young inexperienced players should be up to speed now or they never will be. Isn’t it possible they MAY get better after a few more months? Not certain, but possible? Isn’t it uninspiring, even naïve, to suggest they have shown us all they can ever become in their first 7 games?

 

By continually suggesting there is no alternative and whoever came in would have to work with the same squad is just accepting the roll of the dice. By being blinkered to the infinite amount of options we had suggests you are the one who is sugesting there is nothing we can do about it.

 

I have continually said 7 games is too early to judge the manager (and indeed the players), but that doesn't mean that the alarm bells aren't gong off already.

 

I also think some of these players can get better, but it is also clear that we're probably not in the best position to be learning as we go along. We haven't got the comfort of some hard nosed barstewards in there helping them learn their trade, nor have we the comfort of some wins to let them play without fear.

 

P.S. I'll tell you specific thing I would have done which would have made a decent 6 figure saving, and that is let Webster go to Ipswich in the close season. I wouldn't have asked Ipswich for fee for him, which ultimatley backfired on us when they said no and went elsewere.

Edited 23 September, 2008 by um pahars

[GreenTreeFrog]

I can only assume you haven't read all the posts, have trouble understanding them or are perhaps being obtuse.

 

[cut text}

 

 

 

 

 

I am perfectly capable of understanding things and not agreeing with your points is not the definition of being ‘obtuse.’ In fact your reply argued about subjects that I did not even comment on, if you are now suggesting they were based on other threads or comments elsewhere then why aim them at me?

 

I suggest if you have a problem with either of my two posts on this thread you read them again without bias. I have not said most of the things you claim.

 

As I had already pointed out ‘no alternative’ was not literal I suggest it is you that is being obtuse. Obviously we did not HAVE TO sign Poortvliet and Woote, but any alternative manager would still need to work with the youth and with virtually no transfer budget. Lowe believed the Dutch duo are better suited to development of youth than Pearson was. That much is clear and was his CHOICE. No argument there. Someone has £200 to buy a car and gets a knocked up old Vauxhall Corsa. His mates laugh at him and he says he knows it is shabby but being skint he had no option. He does not mean he LITERALLY had no other options available. He means every car at that price is much the same. Some are a slightly better colour, some a bit less rusty but overall much the same. Think of it that way.

 

The only genuine ‘plan’ you offer is to bring in a bunch of seasoned pros. That is just more of what we have had already. It may work short term but would not be good long term. Decent pros want high wages and how many old pros have we had in the Championship that have absolutely delivered week in week out? Not many. The problem is compounded as to make a realistic difference we don’t need one or two such pros’ – we probably need half a dozen. We cannot afford it.

 

I am not asking for a detailed plan here but what sort of standard of players are you thinking of? How many? How much would they likely want in wages? Again I know you cannot give exact figures but these questions are vitally important if your ‘alternative plan’ is to be taken as credible. Otherwise we could be viewed as little more than a club offering the players equivalent of a donkey sanctuary.

 

 

You claim not to be judging the players after 7 games yet that is exactly what you are doing. Why not stick to your claim and just give it the season. If we are not relegated we have done as well as the big boys did last year. I am not saying that is the best we should aim for but this thread was supposed to be about setting realistic standards ‘for this team’ and that was the basis of my comments. This team, this set up. I have always believed mid table would be a huge achievement but lower mid is more likely. That would be success and next year we should certainly be be better able to compete. Rather that than the usual treadmill of ageing players out for an easy pay day.

[Alain Perrin]

I am perfectly capable of understanding things and not agreeing with your points is not the definition of being ‘obtuse.’ In fact your reply argued about subjects that I did not even comment on, if you are now suggesting they were based on other threads or comments elsewhere then why aim them at me?

 

Yours is a well constructed argument, but I fear you are are either new here or naive. Um Pahars delights in a bit of Lowe bashing and anything tainted by his hands. Watch in awe as he digs out the Poortvliet's CV issue for the nth time!

 

He has strong opinions, as many of us do, but if you expect him to accept that giving youth a chance is the only viable option, I fear you are wasting your time (unless of course it was Crouch's idea).

 

Whilst I don't like to think this of anyone, I suspect that Um and a number of those who rail against Lowe get a degree (albeit a small amount) of satisfaction out of Saint's on pitch difficulties. Just as I suspose I'd gloat if the alternative were true - after all, everyone likes to be proved right.

 

My worry is the debate is an echo of the original Lowe-out one. Want him out, anyone but Lowe/Poortvliet/Telfer/Delap will do. Any counter plan has to be viable and affordable (and when the coffers are bare, that leaves little option but the status quo).

Edited 23 September, 2008 by Alain Perrin

[ottery st mary]

Yours is a well constructed arguement, but I fear you are are either new here or naive. Um Pahars delights in a bit of Lowe bashing and anything tainted by his hands. Watch in awe as he digs out the Poortvliet's CV issue for the nth time!

 

He has strong opinions, as many of us do, but if you expect him to accept that giving youth a chance is the only viable option, I fear you are wasting your time (unless of course it was Crouch's idea).

 

Whilst I don't like to think this of anyone, I suspect that Um and a number of those who rail against Lowe get a degree (albeit a small amount) of satisfaction out of Saint's on pitch difficulties. Just as I suspose I'd gloat if the alternative were true - after all, everyone likes to be proved right.

 

My worry is the debate is an echo of the original Lowe-out one. Want him out, anyone but Lowe/Poortvliet/Telfer/Delap will do. Any counter plan has to be viable and affordable (and when the coffers are bare, that leaves little option but the status quo).

 

JP does not convince me anymore that he believes youth is the way forward, if he ever totally believed it in the first place.

He has already started to admit the same and if the truth be known never had a free hand to produce his own team and the continuing fifficulties of answering to a non football Director of Football and the embarrassment of by-passing The Chairman of Football.

My own opinion of course.

[Alain Perrin]

JP does not convince me anymore that he believes youth is the way forward, if he ever totally believed it in the first place.

He has already started to admit the same and if the truth be known never had a free hand to produce his own team and the continuing fifficulties of answering to a non football Director of Football and the embarrassment of by-passing The Chairman of Football.

My own opinion of course.

 

Any football manager manages with what he has. Give JP the chance of Terry and he'd quickly ditch Perry. Fact is JP knew that, when he came in, he'd be managing youth. Every news conference, press release or interview mentioned that.

 

However to suggest he only wanted to play youth is wrong. Even early on he talked about the right mix (see his comments around the signing of Wotton and the return of Svensson).

 

You have an opinion, but it has little to no basis - other than the motivation of having a go at Lowe. Role titles are un-important as long as people understand what jobs need to be done and who is responsible for them. How Lowe and Wilde split their responsibilities is frankly irrelevant in how JP coaches and how the team performs.

 

Unless of course you are suggesting Lowe picks the team (in which case please offer up the evidence).

[Guest Hacienda]

 

He has strong opinions, as many of us do, but if you expect him to accept that giving youth a chance is the only viable option, I fear you are wasting your time .

 

 

What a pile of steaming b u l l s h i t that is

 

Youth was one option, not the only one. That is no more than your opinion.

[Alain Perrin]

What a pile of steaming b u l l s h i t that is

 

Youth was one option, not the only one. That is no more than your opinion.

 

Youth was/is one option; yes there were others, just not viable ones. Pray tell then, if you know, what were the options? Let me guess....

 

1) A mix of youth and experience.

 

Ermm, isn't that what we have? It might be heavier on the youth than the experience, but Wooton, Perry, John, Svensson are no spring chickens (so you could argue that, when fit, we have a experienced spine.

 

2) 11 Old lags / Journeymen.

 

Come ye, come ye, watch the OAPs run around for 90 minutes. Marvel at their injury records, just don't mention the war! The problem with this solution is that we've tried it before (ask George Burley about journeymen when you're at it). Youth will always cost less in wages than an established player and we're out to reduce our debts as much as possible.

 

3) Sell some players to buy some players.

 

Ask Skacel why he didn't move to Ipswich or Euell why he injured his shoulder (then count how much money we have).

 

4) (My favorite) Get some investment

 

Find a friendly billionaire (Marc Jackson is working on it) or spend a lifetime reading threads about where Paul Allen's boat is moored. It's fair to say this isn't really an option (but it might be by Friday).

 

5) Go into administration

 

Return to go, do not collect 200 pounds (instead collect a points deduction). Say hello to Luton as you pass.

 

6) Keep Pearson

 

See option 1, with more shouting, higher wages (allegedly) and no experience.

 

7) Errmm that's it.

 

Unless you have any others....

[um pahars]

As I had already pointed out ‘no alternative’ was not literal

 

Good.

 

I'm glad we put the fallacy that there was no alternative out there to bed.

 

Yes, money is tight, yes, some of our options are limited, but there are many, many, many ways of running a Club and assembling a squad that would fit within the financial parameters we find ourselvs in.

 

Obviously we did not HAVE TO sign Poortvliet and Woote, but any alternative manager would still need to work with the youth and with virtually no transfer budget. Lowe believed the Dutch duo are better suited to development of youth than Pearson was. That much is clear and was his CHOICE. No argument there.

 

And this is a good example of what I mean by choices.

 

Lowe took the decision to go this way.

 

There was an alternative of going with the incumbent manager, but instead he chose to implement this "revolutionary new coaching set up" and support it as it assembled it's own squad (allowing for some inherited deadwood) and played the football how the "revolutionaey new coaching set up" thought it should play.

 

As it stands, of course I will support this set up, (it would go against everything I believe in not to give them my support), but that does not mean my support is unconditional. By that I mean they have to show that they are worthy of support (by showing signs of progress, making changes and learning from their mistakes).

 

I would like to think they get a full season to show us what they can do, but I also would not rule out having to take drastic action if we continue to show no signs of progression (in much the same way as we finally had to call time on Wigley's tenure).

 

I also agree on you definition of success for this season i.e. mid table, because I did not regard last season as a success,and you didn't find me on the pitch after Sheff Utd, because quite frankly just escaping relegation was nothing to celebrate in my eyes.

 

However, that is only short term success and success for us should be promotion. Anything else is just accepting second best.

[Guest Hacienda]

Youth was/is one option; yes there were others, just not viable ones. Pray tell then, if you know, what were the options? Let me guess....

 

So you've decided only one option was viable because it suits your agenda?

 

Nice and balanced there then.

[Alain Perrin]

Good.

However, that is only short term success and success for us should be promotion. Anything else is just accepting second best.

 

On that we should all agree.

[Alain Perrin]

So you've decided only one option was viable because it suits your agenda?

 

Nice and balanced there then.

 

It doesn't suit my agenda, any more than being able to afford to sign Ronaldo would.

 

Perhaps I am naive, but I accept the fact that we have no money and are on the brink of administration. I believe administration is not a pleasant option and we should try to avoid it.

 

I am certain you could change who the experienced heads are (trade Rasiak for Thomas + Perry for example) but I think ultimately the mix of youth and experience we have is driven by an unchangeable budget. I don't agree with Um Pahar's that Pearson's squad mix would be (could be) much different to be honest.

 

I am yet to see any alternative approaches coming from you which will change my opinion but I am happy to listen to them.

[ottery st mary]

It doesn't suit my agenda, any more than being able to afford to sign Ronaldo would.

 

Perhaps I am naive, but I accept the fact that we have no money and are on the brink of administration. I believe administration is not a pleasant option and we should try to avoid it.

 

I am certain you could change who the experienced heads are (trade Rasiak for Thomas + Perry for example) but I think ultimately the mix of youth and experience we have is driven by an unchangeable budget. I don't agree with Um Pahar's that Pearson's squad mix would be (could be) much different to be honest.

 

I am yet to see any alternative approaches coming from you which will change my opinion but I am happy to listen to them.

 

You appear to have made your mind up so for me to debate with you would be a waste of time and therefore as with Lowey and Wildey I am out.

But I still hope and pray for the club and the team.

Hope we win tonight to lift the spirits.

[VectisSaint]

What is going to be worse? Oh yes, I forgot, you have crystal ball.

 

I think most rational people realise that it takes time to build when you don't have shedloads of cash and need to get the most out of what you have got. We were never going to be world beaters this season but if we can keep the best of the young players together and pick up the odd bargain, eventually we might just build a decent side. Because it hasn't happend by the end of September it doesn't mean it will not happen in the future.

Alps is absolutely spot on here (we don't always/usually agree). Most rational people can see that if we continue to struggle this year, but maybe somehow avoid the drop, 2 critical things will happen (1) crowds will continue to dwindle, since most people tire of seeing a team failing to win consistently at home and (2) the best of our young players will be sold to finance the increasing debt caused by (1). It seems Lallana is already up for sale, with a measley £5m price tag.

[um pahars]

but Wooton, Perry, John, Svensson are no spring chickens (so you could argue that, when fit, we have a experienced spine.

 

But it's a pretty weak argument when you consider Wotton is only getting a game because of injuries, Stern isn't the first choice striker and Svensson is injury prone.

 

That's hardly a spine around which a team is being built!!!!!!!!

 

And as for your earlier remark about me taking a degree of satisfaction out of Saints on pitch difficulties, then I have to say that comment says so much more about you than it does about me.

 

That may be the way you think, but some of us are above such accusations. HTH.

[GreenTreeFrog]

Yours is a well constructed argument, but I fear you are are either new here or naive. Um Pahars delights in a bit of Lowe bashing and anything tainted by his hands. Watch in awe as he digs out the Poortvliet's CV issue for the nth time!

 

He has strong opinions, as many of us do, but if you expect him to accept that giving youth a chance is the only viable option, I fear you are wasting your time (unless of course it was Crouch's idea).

 

Whilst I don't like to think this of anyone, I suspect that Um and a number of those who rail against Lowe get a degree (albeit a small amount) of satisfaction out of Saint's on pitch difficulties. Just as I suspose I'd gloat if the alternative were true - after all, everyone likes to be proved right.

 

My worry is the debate is an echo of the original Lowe-out one. Want him out, anyone but Lowe/Poortvliet/Telfer/Delap will do. Any counter plan has to be viable and affordable (and when the coffers are bare, that leaves little option but the status quo).

 

I have been reading this forum and Keith Leggs predecessor, SaintsForever, for the past 5 years or more but only post infrequently. I am aware that Um Pahars is a prolific poster with strong opinions and I don’t have a problem with that. What did surprise me was why he decided to pick my post to push his agenda, most of what he said had nothing to do with my post at all.

 

I thought the thread you started was valid and a bit of a different angle to some of the others. Some people don’t like anything they see as ‘positive’ so tend to degrade it into the same old arguments of the past 5 years. But really this thread is not even particularly ‘positive’ it is just asking what is realistic and is a very important question that needs reviewing as time marches on.

 

At the beginning of the season we were all in the dark as to what to expect. We had opinions but no evidence. I predicted a struggle but not relegation and a better season next year. 7 games is too early to judge, even though as um pahars says, ‘the alarm bells are ringing.’ But we don’t need to throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet.

 

I think the plan to use the youth players will be good in the long term. In an ideal world we would incorporate them over a few seasons. If we could have kept the best of last years players (including Rasiak and Saganowski) and then blend in 3 or 4 of the younger players each season that would almost certainly be a safer way of doing things. But we don't have the money to do it that way so are forging ahead with what we see now. But being realistic about what to expect is vital.

 

Why Poorvliet said we are aiming for the play offs I have no idea. Why get the fans hopes up when working with such a volatile and untried system? Some thought it was good to hear him being ‘positive’ but there is a difference between being positive and reckless.

[GreenTreeFrog]

JP does not convince me anymore that he believes youth is the way forward, if he ever totally believed it in the first place.

He has already started to admit the same and if the truth be known never had a free hand to produce his own team and the continuing fifficulties of answering to a non football Director of Football and the embarrassment of by-passing The Chairman of Football.

My own opinion of course.

 

I doubt he ever believed it and I have not heard him suggest anything like it being 'the way forward.'

 

When Poorvliet and Woote were appointed they spoke of the importance of a blend of youth and experience in virtually every interview. I am sure neither of them believed at any time ‘youth’ was the primary importance in building a team. They have worked in those set ups though so were considered (rightly or wrongly) the best option if we had to rely on youth.

 

They did say they would not be able to get loan signings in if we already had a player in the youth team that played in that position and was capable of doing a job. They also said he would only keep his place if he proved capable but in reality we knew many established players would be sold so preventing that happening in many cases.

 

In Micheal Wilde’s speech about why they chose the Dutch set up he said:

 

“The board have been looking closely at the situation on the playing side of the club whereby we are inevitably going to have to depend to a large extent on the quality of our youngsters in the academy and the reserve team”

 

Notice even there he has said ‘going to have to’ meaning he is aware it is not ideal.

[um pahars]

What did surprise me was why he decided to pick my post to push his agenda, most of what he said had nothing to do with my post at all.

 

Nothing personal and I certainly wasn't pushing an agenda, just fed up with the number of people now suggesting there is/was no alternative (whereas when we were beating Farnborough and Winchester it was a fantastic coup/choice to get this "revolutionary coaching set up" playing all these youngsters!) which cropped up again on this thread.

 

This was a considered and rational decision made by Lowe, not something he stumbled on and certainly not one forced on him as it was the only choice available.

 

Of course there are limitations to which avenues he could have pursued due to our precarious financial position, but there were a number of avenues still open to him. And he will be judged on that decision.

 

And going back to expectations, then you're right JP's play off claim was OTT, as was the stupid number of quotes and stories on the OS which built up people's expectations and which probably also put heaps of unwanted pressure on the youngsters (something that I commented on at the time when I said I hoep people can see through the propaganda and cut the lads some slack if it doesn't come off).

Edited 23 September, 2008 by um pahars

[GreenTreeFrog]

Good.

 

I'm glad we put the fallacy that there was no alternative out there to bed.

 

[cut text]

 

There was an alternative of going with the incumbent manager, but instead he chose to implement this "revolutionary new coaching set up" and support it as it assembled it's own squad (allowing for some inherited deadwood) and played the football how the "revolutionaey new coaching set up" thought it should play.

 

I know that. Why are you even arguing about this? I am not going over it all again so maybe you need to read my comments again to understand them.

 

As it stands, of course I will support this set up, (it would go against everything I believe in not to give them my support), but that does not mean my support is unconditional. By that I mean they have to show that they are worthy of support (by showing signs of progress, making changes and learning from their mistakes).

 

Of course, but you seem very convinced it is all a massive mistake yet at the same time claim to be saying its far too early to judge. That is contradictory.

 

I would like to think they get a full season to show us what they can do, but I also would not rule out having to take drastic action if we continue to show no signs of progression (in much the same way as we finally had to call time on Wigley's tenure).

 

But, with respect, this is where you seem to fail to understand the reality. This set up is desperation street. We all know that. It is not ideal and even if youth was decided to be the best long term approach it would not be done so quickly but over 2 or 3 seasons of introducing younger players alongside the eperienced ones if at all possible. I doubt many would argue against that - its what most clubs would like to do.

 

What is this drastic action? Does it involve spending money? If so where do we get it from?

 

I also agree on you definition of success for this season i.e. mid table, because I did not regard last season as a success,and you didn't find me on the pitch after Sheff Utd, because quite frankly just escaping relegation was nothing to celebrate in my eyes.

 

Yes. I understand that concept completely. Hurray!

 

However, that is only short term success and success for us should be promotion. Anything else is just accepting second best.

 

Again I agree. But how long should realistically be given to an almost bankrupt club gain to promotion in a league where many clubs are considerably wealthier due to either parachute payments or investment? I would say many YEARS.

 

 

 

My comments in blue.

 

I notice you did not take up my challenge of giving the most basic outline of your 'alternative plan' with general costings involved. By not doing so you are just admiting your so called 'alternative plan' is just pie in the sky. Saying we could have got in an experinced manager and some free signings in the lower rated player category (which it would have to be) is not what i consider and alternative plan. Yes it is slightly different but unlikely to be any better.

 

I rest my case.

[um pahars]

I know that. Why are you even arguing about this? I am not going over it all again so maybe you need to read my comments again to understand them.

 

Because on one hand you're saying there was no alternative, then the next saying there were choices that were made.

 

So which one is it?

 

Of course, but you seem very convinced it is all a massive mistake yet at the same time claim to be saying its far too early to judge. That is contradictory.

 

I'm not convinced it's all a massive mistake at all.

 

I have always said that I will judge those involved on the results the set up achieves. And that may well take some time to decide one way or the other (on the other hand results and the implicationsmay dictate the time involved).

 

If it all goes well then I would happily offer congratulatios to all involved (including Lowe).

 

As we stand here today, I admit I have massive reservations, but I am not convinced one way or the other.

 

But, with respect, this is where you seem to fail to understand the reality. This set up is desperation street. We all know that. It is not ideal and even if youth was decided to be the best long term approach it would not be done so quickly but over 2 or 3 seasons of introducing younger players alongside the eperienced ones if at all possible. I doubt many would argue against that - its what most clubs would like to do.

 

What is this drastic action? Does it involve spending money? If so where do we get it from?

 

We have spent some money on some youngsters (transfer fees, loan fess, wages etc).

 

This could have been prioritised in another direction.

 

There are other costs we could have saved (we could have let Webster go to Ipswich, we could have released Dyer, we could have pushed for selling some of the talented players - Lallana, Surman).

 

This income could have been prioritised in a different direction.

 

So even with a rather shallow pot of money it could have been prioritised in a number of differing ways. The results may be better, worse or similar, but the strategy could still have been different.

 

I notice you did not take up my challenge of giving the most basic outline of your 'alternative plan' with general costings involved. By not doing so you are just admiting your so called 'alternative plan' is just pie in the sky. Saying we could have got in an experinced manager and some free signings in the lower rated player category (which it would have to be) is not what i consider and alternative plan.

 

Throughout my posts I have highlighted a number of ways of generating extra revenues, saving monies and maybe a strategy on the type of players who should have gone for to augment the youngsters we already had on our books.

 

Asking for a mere supporter to come up with costings etc to back up an opinion on a message board is risable. I have no inside knowledge into the wage demands of players, nor our own budgets, nor our bank requirements. Maybe if you could furnish me with them then it might make it easier for me to come up with alternatives.

 

But I think people have enough nous to relaise that there are/were different ways of procruing and moulding a squad.

 

You don't have to provide business plans to justify espousing an opinion on here.

 

Yes it is slightly different but unlikely to be any better.

 

And how do you know that?

 

Please provide me with a detailed analysis on why something that has not yet happened can be so easily dismissed (see, it really is laughable to ask for justification of someone elses opinion isn't it?)

[ottery st mary]

I tried to go with this coach and what he was trying and kept my own council even though I did not trust Lowey to leave the coach and the team alone.

In my humble opinion the evidence in front of me is that the coach JP has not got a clue or he is being led up the garden path by another... Wotte and Lowey in my opinion.

Players selected and positions placed including tonight and his tactics.. A disgrace the whole lot of them...Football men .Not a chance.

[Mole1]

My comments in blue.

 

I notice you did not take up my challenge of giving the most basic outline of your 'alternative plan' with general costings involved. By not doing so you are just admiting your so called 'alternative plan' is just pie in the sky. Saying we could have got in an experinced manager and some free signings in the lower rated player category (which it would have to be) is not what i consider and alternative plan. Yes it is slightly different but unlikely to be any better.

 

I rest my case.

 

Mike Wilde Give Us A Wave.

[RobM]

Why ?

 

What's going to be better next year ?

 

This theory is complete bolllocks.

 

It's not at all bolllocks, it's spot on.

 

We have talent. We have skill. We have the ability to put together some great performances.

 

We do not have experience.

 

You get experience through playing competitive football in games that matter (i.e not the ressies). Our young and inexperienced team will be not quite as young and more experienced next year. Therefore we will be stronger and wiser next year than this.

 

As the original poster says, this year we should expect nothing more than surviving. So if we stay in this league and start next season with the same squad plus, hopefully a wise addition or two, we will be stronger and have more chance of success.

[alpine_saint]

It's not at all bolllocks, it's spot on.

 

We have talent. We have skill. We have the ability to put together some great performances.

 

We do not have experience.

 

You get experience through playing competitive football in games that matter (i.e not the ressies). Our young and inexperienced team will be not quite as young and more experienced next year. Therefore we will be stronger and wiser next year than this.

 

As the original poster says, this year we should expect nothing more than surviving. So if we stay in this league and start next season with the same squad plus, hopefully a wise addition or two, we will be stronger and have more chance of success.

 

Rubbish.

 

Any skill or talent that shows its head will be flogged off. And you still havent addressed how the club will handle another year of loss-making.

[RobM]

Rubbish.

 

Any skill or talent that shows its head will be flogged off. And you still havent addressed how the club will handle another year of loss-making.

 

You have no more proof that all our talent will be flogged off than I do that they wont.

 

And please, tell me what you saw when you read the Saints financial books that makes you so sure that our financial position is as bad as you claim? Can you prove Lowe isn't playing it up to make him 'saving' the club from certain death look more heroic? You seem to know all the facts so please, share them with the rest of class.

[saint_ed]

You have no more proof that all our talent will be flogged off than I do that they wont.

 

And please, tell me what you saw when you read the Saints financial books that makes you so sure that our financial position is as bad as you claim? Can you prove Lowe isn't playing it up to make him 'saving' the club from certain death look more heroic? You seem to know all the facts so please, share them with the rest of class.

 

Wilde openly admitted we will have to sell any saleable assets.

 

And in relation to this thread.....is it ok to lose the faith now?

[alpine_saint]

You have no more proof that all our talent will be flogged off than I do that they wont.

 

And please, tell me what you saw when you read the Saints financial books that makes you so sure that our financial position is as bad as you claim? Can you prove Lowe isn't playing it up to make him 'saving' the club from certain death look more heroic? You seem to know all the facts so please, share them with the rest of class.

 

Whatever, I'm not in the mood to argue. You just keep clutching your straws..

[RobM]

Whatever, I'm not in the mood to argue. You just keep clutching your straws..

 

So you can't answer the points raised then?

 

Happy to rubbish other peoples opinions and thoughts but when questioned on your own, you can't be bothered? If I said I agreed with you, you'd be bothered.

 

You often raise some valid points, but you'll always be a hypocrite who is all mouth and no facts.

[ottery st mary]

Keep the faith utter shambles the lot of them..Directors and coaches not a clue.

[puff the magic dragon]

It's not at all bolllocks, it's spot on.

 

We have talent. We have skill. We have the ability to put together some great performances.

 

We do not have experience.

 

You get experience through playing competitive football in games that matter (i.e not the ressies). Our young and inexperienced team will be not quite as young and more experienced next year. Therefore we will be stronger and wiser next year than this.

 

As the original poster says, this year we should expect nothing more than surviving. So if we stay in this league and start next season with the same squad plus, hopefully a wise addition or two, we will be stronger and have more chance of success.

 

We have the worst squad in over 30 years.

 

The fanbase has never been so divided.

 

The common denominator is Rupert Lowe and Michael Wilde.

[Mr Blobby87]

The light at the end of the tunnel is completely gone for me.

 

The stupid dutch bloke is playing all these ridiculous formations, players out of position with IMO a potentially worse defence than last season, we never look like scoring ever.

 

You try and restore my hope. Attendances are just going to keep getting lower. It feels like supporting the reserve team. With no disrespect to the players some of them are too young and inexperienced.

 

Crist I sound like Alpine Saint but I'm just saying how it is to be honest. WE ARE ****ED!!

 

Anything us fans do will not change a thing. Either we get taken over or we can look forward to league 1 football next season for sure.

[ottery st mary]

Any football manager manages with what he has. Give JP the chance of Terry and he'd quickly ditch Perry. Fact is JP knew that, when he came in, he'd be managing youth. Every news conference, press release or interview mentioned that.

 

However to suggest he only wanted to play youth is wrong. Even early on he talked about the right mix (see his comments around the signing of Wotton and the return of Svensson).

 

You have an opinion, but it has little to no basis - other than the motivation of having a go at Lowe. Role titles are un-important as long as people understand what jobs need to be done and who is responsible for them. How Lowe and Wilde split their responsibilities is frankly irrelevant in how JP coaches and how the team performs.

 

Unless of course you are suggesting Lowe picks the team (in which case please offer up the evidence).

Who selected the coaching team and sorted the Directors roles..Clueless.

[Doctoroncall]

It's not at all bolllocks, it's spot on.

 

We have talent. We have skill. We have the ability to put together some great performances.

 

We do not have experience.

 

You get experience through playing competitive football in games that matter (i.e not the ressies). Our young and inexperienced team will be not quite as young and more experienced next year. Therefore we will be stronger and wiser next year than this.

 

As the original poster says, this year we should expect nothing more than surviving. So if we stay in this league and start next season with the same squad plus, hopefully a wise addition or two, we will be stronger and have more chance of success.

 

There's more to it than playing games to gain experience. The young players are now responsible collectively for gaining points for survival. Normally, youngersters have gained exposure to the first team in one's and two's and have not been burdened by the additional pressure and could focus more on their performance and play like most do, without fear.

 

Perhaps if the preparation of the team was better to handle the pressure then the performances would be better, it's all conjucture.

 

What I struggle with is how will the team gain the wins and the confidence to stay in the league. Playing first team games as they are will not lead to this.

[RobM]

There's more to it than playing games to gain experience. The young players are now responsible collectively for gaining points for survival. Normally, youngersters have gained exposure to the first team in one's and two's and have not been burdened by the additional pressure and could focus more on their performance and play like most do, without fear.

 

Perhaps if the preparation of the team was better to handle the pressure then the performances would be better, it's all conjucture.

 

What I struggle with is how will the team gain the wins and the confidence to stay in the league. Playing first team games as they are will not lead to this.

 

Confidence and experience are two different things, but can be related and very closely tied.

 

I agree entirely that this isn't ideal, but you learn from everything in life and these young players will be more experienced at the end of this season. That much can't be denied. The more you play, the more you learn. Same as anyone in any job.

 

The confidence thing is harder to justify though. The young players may gain confidence from having played a full season in the CCC... how many would have thought that would be possible 6 months ago? They may also have more faith in themselves, knowing the experience and lessons learnt in the CCC will serve them well next season.

 

The only way I can see this being bad for them is if they get to the end of the season and think 'I'll be buggered if I'm going through that again' and scarper.

 

Experience, good or bad, always makes you stronger one way or another.