Skates level in English football, attendances when they go down?

[NickG]

Without the sugar daddy effect, based on support, where do you think skates would settle in English football?

 

Curently they are the 32nd best supported team in England. This is despite them being in premiership. With an average of 18,600.

 

source - http://www.mikeavery.co.uk/Attendance%20All%20Teams%20High%20to%20Low.htm

 

In CCC, or equivalent they were often getting average crowds of around 8,000 to 10,000. Would this be what they get next year in CCC?

 

source - http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/porm.htm

[NickG]

This level of support would put them around the 50th best supported club, so league 1 level.

 

I can see them settling around that sort of level.

[Joensuu]

This should help the discussion:

 

 

Saints vs Skate attendance 1947-2010

 

 

 

*2010 stats based on current league positions

[Joensuu]

Compare that to:

 

Saints vs Skates league positions 1947-2010

 

[SuperMikey]

Joensuu, I would suggest that you should get out of the house more mate!

[Joensuu]

Joensuu, I would suggest that you should get out of the house more mate!

 

You should see what I was about to post*... then gave up having bored myself

 

*(graph of attendance/league position)

[SuperMikey]

You should see what I was about to post*... then gave up having bored myself

 

*(graph of attendance/league position)

 

Some people have foot fetishes, some people like pain, and others just like graphs and charts.

[badgerx16]

But they won't be in the CCC next season, it's the BSq at best

[Tomobz]

na fair play joensuu i found that really interesting! it is amazing how much the downfall through the leagues affected our attendances... bloody plastics! lol

[Matthew Le God]

You should see what I was about to post*... then gave up having bored myself

 

*(graph of attendance/league position)

 

Go on post it.

[Joensuu]

na fair play joensuu i found that really interesting! it is amazing how much the downfall through the leagues affected our attendances... bloody plastics! lol

 

You asked for it!

 

Ratio of attendance vs league position*

*(Attendance / 1000) / (96 - league position)

 

[Matthew Le God]

Trying to get my head round what that last one means. Anyone sum it up?

[Joensuu]

Trying to get my head round what that last one means. Anyone sum it up?

 

Ha, not a lot.

 

Basically, the higher up the graph, the better supported your team is relative to league position.

 

So the blue blip in 1980 was caused by the Skates dropping right down the leagues (to 72nd position), but somehow increasing attendance up to 15,850. Obviously they were promoted that season (from old 4th Divsion to old 3rd), but once they got back up their attendance dropped away completely (in 1982 they had climbed to 57th in the league, but were down to 8,544 fans... ). Were they giving tickets away in 1980 or something?

 

From 1986-2001 our line is skewed by the capacity of the Dell. We would have averaged higher attendance if we had more seats.

 

From 2002 onwards St Mary's made a hugh difference, and as you can see despite falling through the leagues, our attendance ratio has increased.

 

Interesting, that even in the Skate's glory days in the 40's we were pretty close to their attendance (releative to our league position).

 

All in all it doesn't mean much... as being relegated (but keeping the same attendence) sees the line go higher!

 

Right enough, I'm going crazy here... .:smt100

[Arizona]

Trying to get my head round what that last one means. Anyone sum it up?

 

Ditto, I think I've just about got the hang of it.

 

Say Man Utd were top of the Prem, the second number would be 95. If they got an average attendance of 95,000 (I know, I know) that would be a figure of 1.

 

Basically, the higher the number, the more hardcore your support is. Unfortunately, that graph isn't really fair as the two scales aren't linear.

 

For example, if Saints were 10th in League 1, I make that 54th in English football. 96-54= 42. So if our average attendance was 30,000 (hypothetically), it would be a ratio of 30:42, which is less than 1. It would kind of suggest our support is less dedicated, which with 30,000 average would be incorrect IMO.

 

Stats can be interpreted in many ways.

[SaintBobby]

Id say their natural level is lower CCC to mid L1. A lot depends on the stadium though. If they lose Fratton Park, they may stabilise in BSP.

 

We're naturally somewhere between 10th and 30th, I'd say.

[dune]

Pompey are not in the same bracket of clubs as Saints. We fall in the same bracket as Forest, Derby, Norwich and Ipswich - to give some examples of clubs with a similar fanbase to us.

 

Wheras the Skates are in the next level down along with the likes of Preston, Watford, Plymouth and Brighton.

 

Even during the worst of times we hover around a 20,000 home gate, but the Skates under the same circumstances would get 12,000 or less.

 

It's the fact that they are inferior to us (in terms of fanbase) that really riles them. They are deluded and just cannot accept it.

[PES]

If Pompey Stay up Next year Average will increase to 19,000, If we get relegated 12,000 and if we go to the Blue Square 5,000. Personally I could not care less how many go or don't go, I witnessed 200,000 blue clad 'fans' on the common, it all means the whole sum of nothing. I go and mostly enjoy it.

[PES]

Pompey are not in the same bracket of clubs as Saints. We fall in the same bracket as Forest, Derby, Norwich and Ipswich - to give some examples of clubs with a similar fanbase to us.

 

Wheras the Skates are in the next level down along with the likes of Preston, Watford, Plymouth and Brighton.

 

Even during the worst of times we hover around a 20,000 home gate, but the Skates under the same circumstances would get 12,000 or less.

 

It's the fact that they are inferior to us (in terms of fanbase) that really riles them. They are deluded and just cannot accept it.

 

Who does not accept it? Maybe it's in the same way 'most' Saints fans won't accept the fact that Pompey are much more successful than Saints at their Raison d'etre? But you won't want to acknowledge that.

[PES]

Id say their natural level is lower CCC to mid L1. A lot depends on the stadium though. If they lose Fratton Park, they may stabilise in BSP.

 

We're naturally somewhere between 10th and 30th, I'd say.

 

No way Bobby, I'd say Saints are second only to the Big Four, Spurs, Man City (now they're buying their way to prominance) and maybe, just maybe Newcastle. Massive, Massive club The Saints.

Edited 16 February, 2010 by PES

[teamsaint]

in general, clubs that fall out of the PL lose 25 % straight away.

 

So if poopey fall into the CCC ( a result for them IMO !!) expect them to average around 14 to 15 K. I suspect that it might be at the higher end as I suspect that a lot of their softer support has already gone due to poor performances, high prices, all round criminality at every level .

[saintwarwick]

in general, clubs that fall out of the PL lose 25 % straight away.

 

So if poopey fall into the CCC ( a result for them IMO !!) expect them to average around 14 to 15 K. I suspect that it might be at the higher end as I suspect that a lot of their softer support has already gone due to poor performances, high prices, all round criminality at every level .

 

Well seeing as they only got 16,000 against Sunderland recently for the premiership 14 - 15k is being very fair to them, 12k would be more realistic and thats if they are playing well.

[Fishy_Friend]

ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz you lot are bloody obsessed.

[alehouseboys]

ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz you lot are bloody obsessed.

 

 

[NickG]

ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz you lot are bloody obsessed.

 

says skate with 800 posts on saints forum!

 

So where do you think your natural level is, without Mandaric or Sasha, just your fans - mid league 1?

[NickG]

No way Bobby, I'd say Saints are second only to the Big Four, Spurs, Man City (now they're buying their way to prominance) and maybe, just maybe Newcastle.

 

think we are a bit lower than that but thanks.

 

Where do you think you will level out without a sugar daddy? Mid League 1?

[Tomobz]

No way Bobby, I'd say Saints are second only to the Big Four, Spurs, Man City (now they're buying their way to prominance) and maybe, just maybe Newcastle. Massive, Massive club The Saints.

 

we're bigger than all of them have u not heard the song? ''we're by far the greatest team the world has ever seen''. see its by a long way, we are the best and its not even close

[PES]

we're bigger than all of them have u not heard the song? ''we're by far the greatest team the world has ever seen''. see its by a long way, we are the best and its not even close

 

Apologies Tomobz, I never took the song into account.

[PES]

think we are a bit lower than that but thanks.

 

Where do you think you will level out without a sugar daddy? Mid League 1?

 

I think probably top half Portsmouth Sunday league perhaps? I dunno Nick?

[NickG]

I think probably top half Portsmouth Sunday league perhaps? I dunno Nick?

 

lower half?

[PES]

lower half?

 

I'm an optimist.

[NickG]

if you are an optimist you shouldn't be worrying about where your support will take you, this time tomorrow you will be saved by a billionaire!

[Chez]

If Pompey Stay up Next year Average will increase to 19,000, If we get relegated 12,000 and if we go to the Blue Square 5,000. Personally I could not care less how many go or don't go, I witnessed 200,000 blue clad 'fans' on the common, it all means the whole sum of nothing. I go and mostly enjoy it.

 

do you enjoy paying £1300+ for your two tickets though mate, because this is affected by supply and demand.

[Chez]

Well seeing as they only got 16,000 against Sunderland recently for the premiership 14 - 15k is being very fair to them, 12k would be more realistic and thats if they are playing well.

 

Currently 4000 unsold tickets for Stoke game on Saturday

[St Landrew]

 

From 1986-2001 our line is skewed by the capacity of the Dell. We would have averaged higher attendance if we had more seats.

 

 

That chart set was quite interesting. You touched on a point [above] that I have occasionally wondered about, on and off. I have often heard, in the past, supporters talking about not being able to fill The Dell, even at the smallest 15,575 capacity. This was usually thrown up when people suggested that St Marys might be too small. It has occurred to me that very often, stadiums aren't filled to capacity, but have several hundred or the odd thousand seats empty, and the match is still considered a sell-out. [e.g. the Pompey match was at 31,385, still over 1300 under St Marys capacity - but a sell-out]. At The Dell, not having been a season ticket holder for a decade at least, at the time, I could hardly ever get a ticket, despite the apparent lack of attendance. So, for quite a few years, I gave up even trying. When St Marys opened, 15,000+ Saints fans appeared, as if from nowhere, and stayed for 4 seasons, before Saints attempted their slow act of suicide. but that's another story.

 

What I'm trying to say is, I very much thought that when Saints researched the potential capacity of St Marys, they made it too small, and I still think so, for when Saints are in the Premiership, where they belong. I'm not sure of the upper limit, maybe it's, say 36 - 40,000+, maybe more, but I'm damned sure it isn't 32,683. The maximum capacity of The Dell was 30,000, at its height, and Saints hardly ever filled it. Nowadays the greater population, better, and more comfortable facilities, more diverse supporters, greater mobility of people, and higher profile of football generally, mean that 2,683 extra capacity can easily be overwhelmed.

 

People will still say, you'll never fill a bigger stadium. My contention is that when Saints return to the Premiership, the attendances will return to 30,000+ almost every match, and would regularly be much bigger if there was more reserve capacity. I've been of this opinion since St Marys opened, and have been met by shaking heads, mainly, I think, because nobody has properly understood what I'm getting at. I wonder if anyone does..?

[suewhistle]

Yep, I agree. "Capacity" doesn't allow for segregation, hospitality seats not used, people being ill or car breaking down at the last minute, etc. Watching on TV the other day I couldn't see where the gaps were.

 

A friend of mine spoke to Brian Hunt, the Saints director, just before SMS opened. If I recall correctly they were budgeting for 1/3 crowds of 18000, a 1/3 at 24k and the top games at 28k+. As we know we did much better than that with at last latent demand being met. We can see in the Bundesliga with their large stadiums and low ticket prices what can be achieved and I think we could fill a larger stadium with decent football and ticket prices being _under_ inflation for a bit.

 

Incidentally I was in the record crowd at The Dell of 31400 summat, and not being 6ft like my Dad didn't see very much of it. I reckon that figure was an underestimate!!

[NickG]

big reason for being bit under capacity at the Dell was the variation in away support

[Redbul]

Who does not accept it? Maybe it's in the same way 'most' Saints fans won't accept the fact that Pompey are much more successful than Saints at their Raison d'etre? But you won't want to acknowledge that.

 

I accept that P*mpey are a more successful than us at the moment, but at what price? It seems to me that the cost of this success (league position, recent cup win) is, er, Pyrrhic?

[St Landrew]

Yep, I agree. "Capacity" doesn't allow for segregation, hospitality seats not used, people being ill or car breaking down at the last minute, etc. Watching on TV the other day I couldn't see where the gaps were.

 

A friend of mine spoke to Brian Hunt, the Saints director, just before SMS opened. If I recall correctly they were budgeting for 1/3 crowds of 18000, a 1/3 at 24k and the top games at 28k+. As we know we did much better than that with at last latent demand being met. We can see in the Bundesliga with their large stadiums and low ticket prices what can be achieved and I think we could fill a larger stadium with decent football and ticket prices being _under_ inflation for a bit.

 

Incidentally I was in the record crowd at The Dell of 31400 summat, and not being 6ft like my Dad didn't see very much of it. I reckon that figure was an underestimate!!

 

Hooray, someone gets my point..!

 

I was in the record Dell crowd too. Man U, Wednesday 7.30pm KO. 31,044 is recorded, but when peoples' inhalations coincided, or the crowd moved en masse, we kids [i was 11] got squeezed into the wall. I was just to the right, behind the goal, in the Archers End. I wasn't 'ard anuff to be with the Milton Mob.

[NickG]

and then there were 17,000 left.....

[PES]

do you enjoy paying £1300+ for your two tickets though mate, because this is affected by supply and demand.

 

No, its extortionate and I don't think many Saints fans recognise that. 30,000 gives you alot more scope for a sensible ticketing policy, something Pompey have not had the luxury of.

[benjii]

It's about £28 for a home league match innit? I know you slashed prices for most home games earlier in the season when it became apparent how poor your support was.

[NickG]

saints, league 1 £25 centre stand, ends £22

 

skates, premierships games, £38, wings £30, appollo stand £20

[View From The Top]

No, its extortionate and I don't think many Saints fans recognise that. 30,000 gives you alot more scope for a sensible ticketing policy, something Pompey have not had the luxury of.

 

Ticket prices are the main reason why I don't really want Saints back in the EPL.

 

Daft perhaps but I just couldn't justify the cost.

[NickG]

Ticket prices for seven of Pompey's remaining Premier League games at Fratton Park this season are reduced.

 

Adult tickets in the Apollo Stand (Milton end) are just £20 with accompanied children paying just £5 and seniors £15. Unaccompanied children pay £10.

 

Seats in blocks E & G of the Upper North Stand are £30 for adults, £15 for accompanied children and £22 for seniors.

 

The price cuts apply to the remaining home games against Burnley, Birmingham, Sunderland, Stoke, Hull, Blackburn and Wolves.

 

Blues chief executive offer Peter Storrie said: “We want to see Fratton Park full for every match, to create the sort of atmosphere that makes the stadium a fortress.

 

"With that in mind we’ve dropped prices in the Milton end and parts of the north stand for eight Premier League games this season."

 

Cheaper tickets were available for the home game against Wigan in October.

 

Tickets in the Apollo Stand are normally £34 for adults, £25 for seniors and £14 for juniors.

 

Seats in blocks E & G of the Upper North Stand are normally £38 for adults, £27 for seniors and £20 for juniors.

 

Under the changes the coupling of games has been scrapped.

 

Matchday ticket prices for Wigan (Oct 31), Burnley (Dec 5), Birmingham (Jan 16), Sunderland (Feb 9), Stoke (Feb 20), Hull (Mar 20), Blackburn (Apr 3), Wolves (May 1):

 

Apollo End:

Adult £20

Accompanied children (maximum of two) £5 each

Seniors £15

Unaccompanied children £10

 

North Stand Upper E & G Blocks (wings):

Adult £30

Accompanied children (maximum of two) £15 each

Seniors £22

Unaccompanied children £20

[benjii]

So they've reduced prices in the Appolo stand (whatever the feck that is) by about 40%. Bes'sporter'in't'world.

[NickG]

so £5 cheaper to go and watch premiership football and average 18,500

 

or pay the extra £5, watch league 1, average 20,400.

[PES]

and then there were 17,000 left.....

 

Nick, Negative 'S***' has a funny effect on the non-hardcore. Ask the 5,000 that dropped off your average in 2009. 16K last year wasn't it? Down from 21K the year before, a whole Quarter! Now, I'm not knocking that (16K), thats a good CC Crowd, one that pompey won't match next year, but the point i'm making is, your fanbase is effected by 'S***' every bit as much as ours, indeed, any club in the land. You may still get a Season ticket, as will I, but because to many 'S***' isn't very enjoyable, many won't. Your crowds are up again because your doing well. Should Pompey next year have a season like Saints in 2009, then we'll do well to get 10K, however if you honestly believe that Pompey won't sell out if we're on a promotion run with a feeling of genuine optimism, then you'd be wrong.

Edited 20 February, 2010 by PES

[PES]

saints, league 1 £25 centre stand, ends £22

 

skates, premierships games, £38, wings £30, appollo stand £20

 

I pay £38 on average per game, more fool me. I would not want to sit in the 'Appollo' stand, and many won't.

[NickG]

fair enough.

[PES]

So they've reduced prices in the Appolo stand (whatever the feck that is) by about 40%. Bes'sporter'in't'world.

 

LOL, It narks you guys so much. Now believe me, I believe that Tag is as much a load of old toss as you do. However, I never propergate it, the Media do. For some reason they don't recognise how great your fans are? Even after 27 years in the top flight, when the focus and attention was on you, Why?