Southampton Strike Breakers?

[revolution saint]

There's been a bit of dredging up of history about Southampton dockers breaking strikes in Portsmouth (hence the nickname scummers) but I'd like to know more. I know some posters have claimed it's total fabrication, and I hope it is, but does anyone have any links for further information? Or any stories about it?

[the colonel]

You will not find anything, as it is total fantasy.

[St Landrew]

I don't think it is fantasy. Alongside Miners, Dockers were seen as the most militant of category workers, right up until containerisation took away their leverage. I've seen a few general articles, about dock strikes, and workers responses to them, over the years, but they are long gone. From what I can remember, there was no general recruitment of Southampton's stevadores to come along and break the Portsmouth strike. Indeed Southampton's Dockers were every bit as militant as everywhere else in the country. I think what happened was that so-called scab labour was recruited, and some of the scabs were out of work Southampton stevadores. But some came from Pompey as well. People have families, and they have an unfortunate habit of requiring food. In the scheme of things, football rivalry comes a very poor second.

 

This latest rise in the vicious rivalry seems less genuine than it has been in the past. There seems to be hatred for no other reason other than it is what one is supposed to do with the opposition down the road, other than general p!ss taking and banter that used to go on. In the 1980's the rivalry was plain, and it was genuine, and there were idiots. But I think people have been whipped up to be ultra-nasty to each other, and it is now the norm. It wasn't the general case 30 years ago.

Edited 15 February, 2010 by St Landrew

[bridge too far]

This latest rise in the vicious rivalry seems less genuine than it has been in the past. There seems to be hatred for no other reason other than it is what one is supposed to do with the opposition down the road, other than general p!ss taking and banter that used to go on. In the 1980's the rivalry was plain, and it was genuine, and there were idiots. But I think people have been whipped up to be ultra-nasty to each other, and it is now the norm. It wasn't the general case 30 years ago.

 

I was only thinking about this over the weekend, when I read the reports about the trouble and arrests after the match.

 

The media don't help, do they? All the coverage of the 'rivalry' and the police actions to 'prevent trouble'. It's almost as if some brain-dead idiots think 'Oh they're expecting trouble - well I'll live up to their expectations'.

 

Some people just can't think for themselves - they rely on the media to formulate their actions and responses.

 

Sad really

[Kingsland Codger]

I'm from the Isle of Wight and so have no obvious loyalty to either city. When I was a nipper (late 60s early 70s) and when funds would allow I would see Saints one weekend and Portsmouth the next and never experienced any anymosity or even rivalry. It certainly didn't feel strange to go and see both teams and there were plenty of other Islanders who did the same thing.

 

As for dockers and strikes - There was a nationwide dockstrike in the very early 1970s but I never heard any stories about any strikes or strike breakers between Southampton and Portsmouth. I don't think Portsmouth was involved in the strike as it was only a naval port at the time. Ferries to Normandy went from Southampton.

 

So I'm of the view it's one of those Urban Myths and the rivalry appears to be only fairly recent.

[St Landrew]

I was only thinking about this over the weekend, when I read the reports about the trouble and arrests after the match.

 

The media don't help, do they? All the coverage of the 'rivalry' and the police actions to 'prevent trouble'. It's almost as if some brain-dead idiots think 'Oh they're expecting trouble - well I'll live up to their expectations'.

 

Some people just can't think for themselves - they rely on the media to formulate their actions and responses.

 

Sad really

 

Yep, sad. Peer pressure and sheep like mentality. There is very much a sense of the idiots acting up to their so-called reputation.

[fanimal]

Down to them, pure and simple. Every time we played there in the 70s, 80s and 05, we all brought back memories and stories of their attitude/behaviour and it has been built up by us guys in our 40s/50s and handed down to the next generation, and hyped by the media too.

 

But it sure makes for an amazing atmosphere!! Shame we cant do it every game though, singing as you queue to go through the turnstiles, that only happens at away games.

[the colonel]

I don't think it is fantasy. Alongside Miners, Dockers were seen as the most militant of category workers, right up until containerisation took away their leverage. I've seen a few general articles, about dock strikes, and workers responses to them, over the years, but they are long gone. From what I can remember, there was no general recruitment of Southampton's stevadores to come along and break the Portsmouth strike. Indeed Southampton's Dockers were every bit as militant as everywhere else in the country. I think what happened was that so-called scab labour was recruited, and some of the scabs were out of work Southampton stevadores. But some came from Pompey as well. People have families, and they have an unfortunate habit of requiring food. In the scheme of things, football rivalry comes a very poor second.

QUOTE]

 

 

If it is not fantasy show me the evidence! I Think the pompey fans specifically refer to dock strikes in the 30's.

 

Another issue can a Miltiary establishment go on strike, esp' in the 30's where workers rights were fair less than they are today?

 

I stand to be corrected and would be interested if you or anyone has any info' to the contrary.

[exile on main street]

It's cobblers. Southampton dockers were as militant as anywhere else. Also, Portsmouth is a predominantly naval dock, Southampton a predominantly commercial one. There is no record of any Southampton dockers breaking a strike in Portsmouth. Utter cobblers.

[Viking Warrior]

IM not sure of the facts. I was watching a programme the other day inconjunction with the match, The TV programme concerned mention how we became scummers and showed some old footage of alledged strike breaking in the late 30's. It easy to dub over some footage and say they were sotonian dockers, To me the footage just showed dockers going about their everyday work No placards Unions flags or anything.

 

But the one thing for me is that the story is totally fabricated. whehter it was the 30'3 or the 50's We are talking about a Navy Dockyard. no strike would have been allowed if it had occurred then the navy would have loaded , unloaded their own vessels. Thats what the services did then and still do.

[Under Weststand]

This is total uncorroborated bulls**t you can find no links or further information because it is exactly what you question, total fabrication. Also the LOL bulls**t they started about Markus being an SS tank driving Nazi during the war even though he wasn't born until 2 years after the war finished. But when have the blue few ever come up with the truth.

The Southampton docker were always one of the most militant workforces in the country, & would never have broken a strike at that time.

[Trumush]

Pure urban myth.

Some clever skate has come up with a mythical reason to justify them calling us scum after we've been calling them scum for years.

The irony is when the thatcher government abolished the national dock labour scheme in the late 80's a busload of southampton docker's had to go down to the p****mouth commercial port to stop them handling ships diverted from strikebound southampton docks.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The internet is a wonderful thing and you can find out anything about anything , apart from this "Dock strike".

[solentstars]

never ever happened fact

[69 saint]

Heres a bit from 2005

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/jan/23/newsstory.sport8

[hamster]

I understand that there WAS a strike in the 1890's which some dock workers did indeed work through. One must remember however that other dock-workers around the country -London in particular - were already earning what was known as the 'docker's tanner', six old pence iirc.

 

I make no excuse for any strike-breakers, that would go against my own personal (out-dated) beliefs, but Southampton dockers were not the only ones to be in the predicament of eitehr working or starving. Massive point here; there was no union in Southampton Docks.

 

Anyway, a delegation of Dockers came down from London and helped our local men to organise themselves and form their own branch of the Union. The Dock's owners united against them and eventually an official strike was called.

 

Take a break at this point as what followed was quite poignant.

 

Some Dockers from other ports arrived HERE to break the strike, I am not sure where from, but they were met with hordes of dockers and their families hurling abuse and reportedly rocks and stones - hard times eh!

 

The government intervened too (bastards) and sent military men from of all places PORTSMOUTH, the Royal Yorks Regiment were based there at the time.

The local council also enlisted the local fire brigade to push back the striking men and eventually the incoming strike-breakers got to unload the ships in the docks.

 

I understand that the strike was eneded when there was a deal done in London between London Dockers and the Government, which left the Southampton men out on their own. mrs btf will like this bit perhaps, because the then Mayor of Southampton quite literally read them the 'Riot Act'.

 

They had been beaten by the government, the local council, the army and their fellow dockworkers from around the country, but the bitterest pill that these men who had helped build our great docks reputation had to swallow was that those who had come to enlist their support had done the dirty behind their backs. They had been shafted by the Union!

Edited 15 February, 2010 by hamster

[spyinthesky]

The Southampton Company of Union Men (SCUM) so lauded by the Pompeyites is utter tosh

 

There was little or no bad feeling between the rival fans until the late 60's and beyond when hooliganism reared its ugly head across the country

 

In fact quite a few Saints fans went down to Fratton Park to see Div 1 football in the 50's.

 

There is some suggestion of Portsmouth men being brought in to take the place of striking Soton based rail workers in one isolated incident in the late 19th century but no suggestion of any lasting issues.

 

However there is FACTUAL evidence in the Soton Echo archives (around 21/22 November 1976 if my memory serves me correct) when Portsmouth Dockers working at the Commercial Port reneged on a deal not to handle some ferry trade originally located in Plymouth (the fledgling Brittany Ferry Service I think)

 

Portsmouth Dockers were part of a South Coast Dockers Action Group (including Soton, who chaired the group through sheer amount of members, Poole, Weymouth and Plymouth)

 

The Portsmouth Dockers, having originally agreed not to handle the transferred ships,then reneged on the promise not for the first time, and the other group members (mainly Soton Dockers due to the geographic proximity) turned up in numbers to picket the gates at Albert Johnson Quay.

 

The Pompey Dockers basically shat themselves and the police had to turn out in numbers to uphold the law.

 

Several Soton Dockers were arrested, including Sammy Charles (a big bugger), the brother of Bob Charles the ex England Youth and Saints Goalie.

 

The dispute carried on over a couple of days and made headlines in the Echo and the News.

 

Ritchie Pearce (who went on the run the Corner Post/Fitzhugh Arms)was the Chairman of the Soton and SW Dockers at the time.

 

One of the Pompey boys went by the name of 'Docker Hughes' (he once stood as a local councillor and got a good few votes) a very skinny version of John PFC W******d (ie a total knob). Apparently he and a few mates subsequently dreamed up the story of 'SCUM' strike breaking in the 1920/1930's to deflect from the Pompey Dockers 'SCABBING' in the 70's

 

Its amazing how the SCUM fictitious nonsense is now etched in folklore when the actual events I have described can be found in the relevant ECHO/NEWS archives or the main Soton/Pompey libraries.

 

It would be good to have someone verify, and expand upon the details I have posted.

 

Incidentally I heard a new one posted on Radio 5 on Friday and had something to do with Pompey Dockers (should have been seamen if true) refusing to work on the 'Titanic' and instead demanding to work on her sister ship the 'Olympic' thereby sending hundreds of Soton boys to their deaths.

 

Absolute nonsense but no doubt someone will believe and pass on.

[Just a Fan]

A few years ago, I was listening to the radio when this subject came up. Some bloke came on and said that he'd never phoned in to a radio station before but that what he was hearing made him mad enough to phone in then.

 

Apparently he was a docker, as was his dad and his dad before him, and what he said was this...

 

At some time or other there had been a strike in the Southampton docks. Now Pompey, although a naval docks, had a couple of spaces for commercial shipping. Because the Southampton dockers refused to unload a couple of ships they were sent down to Pompey where their dockers unloaded them.

I think what he said then was that the next time the Pompey dockers went on strike the Southampton dockers refused to come out in sympathy.

 

Must admit, he sounded really annoyed about what was being said on the radio and very adamant about the story he gave.

 

So there you go.

[CB Fry]

As everyone else has said, patent garbage from start to finish.

 

As if anyone would start a collective with the acronym "SCUM" even in the thirties or whenever this story is supposed to have happened.

 

And of course, Southampton is the commercial port and Pompey the naval port. And the military don't go on strike, and if anyone is going to go and break strikes it would be the military much like the army step in when the Firemen flounce off these days.

 

So if this story ever happened at all, it could only be the other way round.

[benjii]

I heard that the Collective of United National Turnaround Stevedores from Portsmouth started the whole thing.

[CityRanger]

i heard that the collective of united national turnaround stevedores from portsmouth started the whole thing.

 

:d:d:d:d:d

[Nineteen Canteen]

Apparently, ITV did a piece about the rivalry before the game on Saturday and they mentioned the 'dock strikes' according to my less than reliable source of 'silver armchair fans' who seemed to have a rather good time chatting whilst the game was on.

 

If anybody recorded the game and hasn't got round to watching it yet I'd be interesting in hearing what they reported. I doubt though it was anything pre 1960 as I know, like many others, of family and friends who regularly attended games at both grounds.

[Wade Garrett]

It's rubbish. The only strike breakers were from Pompey.

 

My old man did flying picket duty a few times at Pompey. One time, a couple of coachloads of farmers were bussed in, and the police let them go at the blokes on the picket line.

 

I don't think things went as the police had planned. The MD of Townsend Thoresen had his car overturned as well. Brilliant.

 

Pompey, crap club, crap fans, crap dockers.

[Fowllyd]

Quite apart from the clear historical inaccuracy (which has been very well covered in other posts), I don't know how anybody could believe the S.C.U.M. part of the story. It's blindingly obvious that this is an acrostic rather than an acronym - in other words, somebody has tried to think of words to fit the letters of 'scum' and come up with Southampton Company of/City Union Men, rather than the other way round.

 

Possible/likely acronyms are often considered when a name for something is being thought up - for example, I've no idea whether the management of what's now Northumbria University really thought of Central University of Newcastle upon Tyne as a possible name when the Poly became a university, but if they had done they'd have thought better of it pretty quickly.

 

If the originators of this myth had been able to come up with a more convincing acrostic, it might have been rather more believable as an acronym.

 

Incidentally, I have been told the S.C.U.M. story by someone who clearly believed it to be true. Then again, he was a London-born Man Utd supporter living in the north-eastern end of Hampshire,who swore blind that he'd been at the famous 6-3 game at the Dell and that it was definitely that match where his team wore the notorious grey strip which they changed at half time!

[Trumush]

The dissapointing part of all of this is the fact that it has been picked up by the media

 

who quote it everytime we play them.

 

It was covered by the BBC when they covered the cuptie in 2005,and the ITV this time.

 

It just goes to show if you spread enough bulls**t , people end up believing it.!!

[St Landrew]

Apparently, ITV did a piece about the rivalry before the game on Saturday and they mentioned the 'dock strikes' according to my less than reliable source of 'silver armchair fans' who seemed to have a rather good time chatting whilst the game was on.

 

If anybody recorded the game and hasn't got round to watching it yet I'd be interesting in hearing what they reported. I doubt though it was anything pre 1960 as I know, like many others, of family and friends who regularly attended games at both grounds.

 

I watched my recording of the game last night. It included the pre-match build-up, where presenter Matt Smith made it very clear that the two clubs supporters don't like each other at all. He had Mark Hateley [Ex-Pompey] and Andy Townsend [Ex-Saint] as opinion makers. After deciding that Saints were undoubtedly the underdogs, they did suggest Pompey would have a real tough time, and Saints had a real chance of causing an upset. They also compared the turmoil at Pompey with the turmoil that once was Saints, and what now is unity for SFC.

 

Then Matt Smith made his first presenting error. He suggested that Saints fans, although loving the agony for Pompey supporters, wouldn't like Pompey to go out of business, because that would mean nobody to hate. To which Andy Towsend piped up, Oh I think they will Matt, I think they'd rather Pompey fold and disappear..!

 

Then Gabriel Clarke interviewed Peter Storrie, who put up an optimistic front, albeit rather unconvincingly. Mark Hateley wasn't convinced by him either. Andy Townsend doubted whether Pompey's players actually had a sense of the occasion. Then he had a go at the Premier League, and questioned the fit and proper person process. To which I think he had a real point.

 

After adverts, there was a look back to the last FA Cup encounter at St Marys between the two clubs, [2-1 Saints] and Matt Taylor's handball was so definite, I can't believe the controversy. At the other end, the penalty awarded against Claus wasn't. There was nothing there, and Kamara went to ground as he lost control of the ball.

 

After more adverts [bloody hell, I know why I hardly ever watch commercial TV] a pretty good interview with Alan Pardew, who summed up the situation well. Then we had a shot of the Red & White cards held up by the crowd, which looked excellent. All agreed that this was going to be a proper FA Cup tie, and then we went to adverts [AGAIN..?] as the teams walked through the tunnel.

 

Back with a shot of Avram Grant and Alan Pardew shaking hands, grinning and chatting. The big Saints lady with the FA Cup on her head, and then commentator Clive Tilsley said [and I think this is worth reading]:

 

...now I know what the rest of you are thinking... South coast of England... all yachts and beaches... Howard's way and Cowes Regatta... as much of a football hotbed as... the Cotswolds or the Dales. Well THINK AGAIN. Football in these two great port cities means nearly as much as it does in Liverpool or Newcastle. This is a deep seated local rivalry. Red against Blue. Scummers against Skates - the delightful names the two sets of fans have for one another. An absense that only makes the heart grow harder... this is the first time their paths have crossed since 2005, and who knows when their paths with cross again..?

 

Then we went into the match, and not a single mention of dockers, strike breakers, or any sense that there was a single proper reason behind the hatred.

[Danny]

Then we went into the match, and not a single mention of dockers, strike breakers, or any sense that there was a single proper reason behind the hatred.

 

Coincidentally, I watched it last night too. Clive Tyldesleymentioned dock strikes just before the second half.

 

Doesn't make it any more historically correct though. There was no dock strike at Portsmouth broken by dockers from Southampton, and as far as I am aware, there was never any organisation named "Southampton Corporation Union Men".

[hamster]

Anyway, if it were true that anyone from these parts had broken a strike we would have been called 'Scabs' not 'Scum'

 

In mansfield Town are not referred to by their local rivals, they are "SCABS". Mansfield is affectionately known as a "Town full of SCABS, you're just a Town full of SCABS" and the local girls are known as "SCAB SLAGS".

 

'SCAB' is the universal term for people who cross picket lines and break strikes, SCUM simply does not work, any Trade Unionist worth his or her salt knows this.

 

Blimey! I am off down to Deal this weekend and no-one I have ever discussed this Pompey nonsense with down there believes it. I can assure people that if Southampton was a Scab town they (the **** on miners) would not be shy in letting me know.

 

Know then as for sailors having sex with fish....course it's true.

[Badger]

Anyway, if it were true that anyone from these parts had broken a strike we would have been called 'Scabs' not 'Scum'

 

 

'SCAB' is the universal term for people who cross picket lines and break strikes, SCUM simply does not work, any Trade Unionist worth his or her salt knows this.

 

 

Isn't the word "scab" though largely a late1960'/70s invention ? Whereas our mythological strike breaking was in the 1930's.

[hamster]

/\

 

My understanding is that earlier (19-20th century) terms included 'soupers' like the term used in Ireland for those Catholics who were quite literally starved into eating from the Protestant church soup kitchens. I will check this weekend with my cousins and brother in law as to the age of the term 'Scab'.

[bridge too far]

/\

 

My understanding is that earlier (19-20th century) terms included 'soupers' like the term used in Ireland for those Catholics who were quite literally starved into eating from the Protestant church soup kitchens. I will check this weekend with my cousins and brother in law as to the age of the term 'Scab'.

 

It was around in 1903

 

http://london.sonoma.edu/Writings/WarOfTheClasses/scab.html

[Saint137]

I seem to remember in recent history (early 70s) the Ffyes banana contract went to Pompey when the Southampton dockers were on strike. Thing was that the Southampton dockers were part of of organised dock labour (i.e National Dock Labour Board) whereas Pompey were an independent port. When NDLB ports went on strike in general all their ports came out in sympathy (so we were on strike in solidarity with Liverpool etc). Over time and largely as a result of Thatcher's anti-union policies more and more Southampton contracts went the way of independent ports (esp. Felixstowe) which resulted in Southampton docks being on strike for what seemed like ages in the early 80s (I was a kid, but remember my old man on strike for at least a whole school year). Certainly during that period of losing contracts (and therefore jobs) the rivalry/hatred would have grown. Organised dock labour tended to see all independent dock workers as scabs.

[St Landrew]

Coincidentally, I watched it last night too. Clive Tyldesleymentioned dock strikes just before the second half.

 

Doesn't make it any more historically correct though. There was no dock strike at Portsmouth broken by dockers from Southampton, and as far as I am aware, there was never any organisation named "Southampton Corporation Union Men".

 

yes, but there were no pre-match comments. I skipped the HT chat. Might go back and watch that.

[Nineteen Canteen]

I watched my recording of the game last night. It included the pre-match build-up, where presenter Matt Smith made it very clear that the two clubs supporters don't like each other at all. He had Mark Hateley [Ex-Pompey] and Andy Townsend [Ex-Saint] as opinion makers. After deciding that Saints were undoubtedly the underdogs, they did suggest Pompey would have a real tough time, and Saints had a real chance of causing an upset. They also compared the turmoil at Pompey with the turmoil that once was Saints, and what now is unity for SFC.

 

Then Matt Smith made his first presenting error. He suggested that Saints fans, although loving the agony for Pompey supporters, wouldn't like Pompey to go out of business, because that would mean nobody to hate. To which Andy Towsend piped up, Oh I think they will Matt, I think they'd rather Pompey fold and disappear..!

 

Then Gabriel Clarke interviewed Peter Storrie, who put up an optimistic front, albeit rather unconvincingly. Mark Hateley wasn't convinced by him either. Andy Townsend doubted whether Pompey's players actually had a sense of the occasion. Then he had a go at the Premier League, and questioned the fit and proper person process. To which I think he had a real point.

 

After adverts, there was a look back to the last FA Cup encounter at St Marys between the two clubs, [2-1 Saints] and Matt Taylor's handball was so definite, I can't believe the controversy. At the other end, the penalty awarded against Claus wasn't. There was nothing there, and Kamara went to ground as he lost control of the ball.

 

After more adverts [bloody hell, I know why I hardly ever watch commercial TV] a pretty good interview with Alan Pardew, who summed up the situation well. Then we had a shot of the Red & White cards held up by the crowd, which looked excellent. All agreed that this was going to be a proper FA Cup tie, and then we went to adverts [AGAIN..?] as the teams walked through the tunnel.

 

Back with a shot of Avram Grant and Alan Pardew shaking hands, grinning and chatting. The big Saints lady with the FA Cup on her head, and then commentator Clive Tilsley said [and I think this is worth reading]:

 

...now I know what the rest of you are thinking... South coast of England... all yachts and beaches... Howard's way and Cowes Regatta... as much of a football hotbed as... the Cotswolds or the Dales. Well THINK AGAIN. Football in these two great port cities means nearly as much as it does in Liverpool or Newcastle. This is a deep seated local rivalry. Red against Blue. Scummers against Skates - the delightful names the two sets of fans have for one another. An absense that only makes the heart grow harder... this is the first time their paths have crossed since 2005, and who knows when their paths with cross again..?

 

Then we went into the match, and not a single mention of dockers, strike breakers, or any sense that there was a single proper reason behind the hatred.

 

Thx - like I said my source was less than reliable. Get a bunch of oldies in a room together with a 'nice spread and a lovely drop of wine' then the purpose of their get together becomes secondary. When you get to their age who can blame them they had a great time and kind of wish I had joined them in hindsight.

[Nineteen Canteen]

I seem to remember in recent history (early 70s) the Ffyes banana contract went to Pompey when the Southampton dockers were on strike. Thing was that the Southampton dockers were part of of organised dock labour (i.e National Dock Labour Board) whereas Pompey were an independent port. When NDLB ports went on strike in general all their ports came out in sympathy (so we were on strike in solidarity with Liverpool etc). Over time and largely as a result of Thatcher's anti-union policies more and more Southampton contracts went the way of independent ports (esp. Felixstowe) which resulted in Southampton docks being on strike for what seemed like ages in the early 80s (I was a kid, but remember my old man on strike for at least a whole school year). Certainly during that period of losing contracts (and therefore jobs) the rivalry/hatred would have grown. Organised dock labour tended to see all independent dock workers as scabs.

 

Sounds the most plausible explanation so far and corresponds with the height of football hooligans where it became de rigueur to posture in front of your neighbours or play knock down ginger, whilst not forgetting the miners war of crass stupidity during that period of extreme unrest.

 

What we have established is that we have a few morons on either side who like to make empty threats for no actual reason but only if they have had a shandy - dutch courage I guess. If it didn't involve our club it would be comedy gold as it is - well, it's just an embarrassment.

[spyinthesky]

Sounds the most plausible explanation so far and corresponds with the height of football hooligans where it became de rigueur to posture in front of your neighbours or play knock down ginger, whilst not forgetting the miners war of crass stupidity during that period of extreme unrest.

 

What we have established is that we have a few morons on either side who like to make empty threats for no actual reason but only if they have had a shandy - dutch courage I guess. If it didn't involve our club it would be comedy gold as it is - well, it's just an embarrassment.

 

I think trying to link the bad feeling towards industrial disputes is rather misleading.

I went to school in Fareham (no probs with Pompey boys at that time) and later worked in shipping so have an understanding of the industrial issues at least.

In my view the bad feeling was originally caused by Pompey fans (I can remember our mascot having gravel thrown at him at Fratton Park during a game in the early/mid 60's) but fans generally mixed OK.

The demise of Pompey at the time co- incided with Saints rise from relative obscurity in the old third division to surpass Pompey as the leading team in Hants.

By then I was a bit older and used to frequent Pompey nightclubs like the Birdcage where you kept the fact you supported Saints to yourself.

However Pompey supporting friends from school days could come to Soton with relative impunity.

I also played football at a reasonable level and began to notice that playing against teams from the Pompey area would result in a bit of stick from supporters.

This didn't seem to be reciprocated when Pompey teams came to this area altho as time progressed (and Soton became more influential as a city eg BBC & ITV centered here. football club became more successful etc) the aggro from the Pompey area became more intense.

In recent years this has been reciprocated from the Soton side so much so that the 'hatred' on both sides is probably more evenly spread which is a shame for all reasonable people

[Nineteen Canteen]

I think trying to link the bad feeling towards industrial disputes is rather misleading.

I went to school in Fareham (no probs with Pompey boys at that time) and later worked in shipping so have an understanding of the industrial issues at least.

In my view the bad feeling was originally caused by Pompey fans (I can remember our mascot having gravel thrown at him at Fratton Park during a game in the early/mid 60's) but fans generally mixed OK.

The demise of Pompey at the time co- incided with Saints rise from relative obscurity in the old third division to surpass Pompey as the leading team in Hants.

By then I was a bit older and used to frequent Pompey nightclubs like the Birdcage where you kept the fact you supported Saints to yourself.

However Pompey supporting friends from school days could come to Soton with relative impunity.

I also played football at a reasonable level and began to notice that playing against teams from the Pompey area would result in a bit of stick from supporters.

This didn't seem to be reciprocated when Pompey teams came to this area altho as time progressed (and Soton became more influential as a city eg BBC & ITV centered here. football club became more successful etc) the aggro from the Pompey area became more intense.

In recent years this has been reciprocated from the Soton side so much so that the 'hatred' on both sides is probably more evenly spread which is a shame for all reasonable people

 

Are we blaming TVS? Probably has it roots in the rise of football violence more than anything as you suggest with your early experiences. The fact there seems to be no obvious cause makes it all the more shameful and some simply need to grow up and learn how to take a drink or best avoid it altogether. I would like to see the police adopt a level of zero tolerance including those who threaten through a cloud of their own drunken fumes.

[Wade Garrett]

I seem to remember in recent history (early 70s) the Ffyes banana contract went to Pompey when the Southampton dockers were on strike. Thing was that the Southampton dockers were part of of organised dock labour (i.e National Dock Labour Board) whereas Pompey were an independent port. When NDLB ports went on strike in general all their ports came out in sympathy (so we were on strike in solidarity with Liverpool etc). Over time and largely as a result of Thatcher's anti-union policies more and more Southampton contracts went the way of independent ports (esp. Felixstowe) which resulted in Southampton docks being on strike for what seemed like ages in the early 80s (I was a kid, but remember my old man on strike for at least a whole school year). Certainly during that period of losing contracts (and therefore jobs) the rivalry/hatred would have grown. Organised dock labour tended to see all independent dock workers as scabs.

 

I remember that strike as well. It went on for 14 weeks, and ended after a court case in which the judge came down firmly on the side of the workers. He also threatened the MD/port boss with contempt of court when he heard his reaction to the verdict.

[Joesaint]

Heres a bit from 2005

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/jan/23/newsstory.sport8

 

That sound about right