Armed Forces cracking under the strain

[Thedelldays]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7021207.ece

[aintforever]

Time to stop messing about in foreign countries where we don't need to be and spend our cash on something else - like rebuilding our ****ged economy.

[Crab Lungs]

I just don't get it ... why can't we afford to give forces what they need? Why do we have to downscale, why do they have to suffer - surely they are one of the most important parts of any nation?

 

It does make me wonder why we've got 'nappy trainers' working for local governments on 30k a year and you've got our forces personnel scraping by on 16k a year and struggling with substandard or out-of-date equipment.

 

I bet there is a shocking black hole where all the money is being haemorrhaged on ridiculous schemes, jobs and people who are undeserving of this countries taxpayers money... but hey, while many people are on the gravy train and raking it in, why look for a solution to someone elses problem when it jeopardises your own comfy position and salary?

 

When is the country going to have a legitimate and serious alternative political party who will come in, strip off the red tape and make us proud again? Surely there has got to be some politicians/people out there who really want to set things straight? Surely there are some people in this country who do things besides their own interests?

 

Such a shame... what would it take for the UK to become a military power once more? I mean, a rival 'superpower' or to that effect? Increase not decrease

[St Landrew]

It has been the same in this country for decades. Politicians listen to the Public Will, which is largely anti-war [who isn't], but they take it too far and leave us too threadbare.

 

Been reading up on the TSR2, just for interest. Mid 1950's, the RAF issue a vague requirement for a supersonic strike aircraft, capable of flying all the way to Russia at high or extreme low level, smoothly and with just the fuel it could carry. The initial designs were drawn up. English Electric and Vickers were selected as joint manufacturers, with Vickers as senior partner, even though they had no experience in supersonic aircraft and EE had successful years of it. They argued where to build/test it, either at Vickers, who hadn't a long enough runway, or EE who had. So they built and tested it at Boscombe Down in Wiltshire, miles away from either company.

 

Then they changed the design at least 5 times in a major way, while the RAF changed/refined its requirements. In 1964, the engineers had overcome the difficulties and designed and built an aircraft that was at least 20 years ahead of its time [for example, it was better than the Tornado which came 15 years later], when the U.S. F-111 came up for offer. The British government decided to cancel TSR2, and buy the F-111 even though it was a much worse aircraft, had its own major difficulties, which the U.S. hadn't as yet overcome, but was cheaper at the time. They even destroyed the jigs, tools and equipment which made the TSR2 so it was much costlier to go back on the decision. By the time the U.S. sorted the problems, the cost of the F-111 was more than the TSR2, so we didn't buy it, and not a single job had been created within the main British aircraft industry, whereas before, potential customers has started to queue up for the completed TSR2.

 

That's how you f*** up an industry, and the armed force that depends on them, and the jobs and skills that go to waste. Only a British government could do it.

[COMEONYOUREDS]

Why don't we give up on these pointless f*cking wars and give these people back their countries, rather than carry on persecuting them like we have done for hundreds of years. This country makes me sick

[Thedelldays]

Why don't we give up on these pointless f*cking wars and give these people back their countries, rather than carry on persecuting them like we have done for hundreds of years. This country makes me sick

you are MORE than welcome to leave at any time..

[View From The Top]

I just don't get it ... why can't we afford to give forces what they need? Why do we have to downscale, why do they have to suffer - surely they are one of the most important parts of any nation?

 

It does make me wonder why we've got 'nappy trainers' working for local governments on 30k a year and you've got our forces personnel scraping by on 16k a year and struggling with substandard or out-of-date equipment.

 

I bet there is a shocking black hole where all the money is being haemorrhaged on ridiculous schemes, jobs and people who are undeserving of this countries taxpayers money... but hey, while many people are on the gravy train and raking it in, why look for a solution to someone elses problem when it jeopardises your own comfy position and salary?

 

When is the country going to have a legitimate and serious alternative political party who will come in, strip off the red tape and make us proud again? Surely there has got to be some politicians/people out there who really want to set things straight? Surely there are some people in this country who do things besides their own interests?

 

Such a shame... what would it take for the UK to become a military power once more? I mean, a rival 'superpower' or to that effect? Increase not decrease

 

I think it's safe to say all the non-jobs are about to disappear.

 

Most non-jobs are on fixed term contracts and in the wasteful, uber-liberal organisation whom I work for, those contracts aren't being renewed.

 

Thankfully we are heading back to the sensible staffing levels of previous years.

[Thedelldays]

I wonder of the argies will have another pop at the Falklands in a few years time once the forces have been reduced to a shadow of its former self..

[St Landrew]

Why don't we give up on these pointless f*cking wars and give these people back their countries, rather than carry on persecuting them like we have done for hundreds of years. This country makes me sick

 

Actually, one of the less evident reasons for invading both Iraq and Afganistan was to stop persecution of the ordinary citizens.

[St Landrew]

I wonder of the argies will have another pop at the Falklands in a few years time once the forces have been reduced to a shadow of its former self..

 

I'm sure our small boy in a rowing boat would be more than a match.

[Thedelldays]

We have a single landlocked conflict that wasn't in Britain's long term strategic interest to become involved in.

 

We are now involved in it and cannot extract ourselves without losing credibility.

 

This conflict has coincided with the United Kingdom's effective bankruptcy.

 

The conflict was visited upon us by the same politicians who were responsible for the economic crash and both events are to a large extent intertwined.

 

The conflict is now driving an unbalanced defence policy and posture to the detriment of our real long-term interests, obligations and responsibilities.

 

The article would be a good read in Buenos Aries especially with the new pipelines installed across the Straits of Magellan, oil exploration north of Bennie Land just about to kick-off and the Malvinas Basin up for grabs.

[aintforever]

The article would be a good read in Buenos Aries especially with the new pipelines installed across the Straits of Magellan, oil exploration north of Bennie Land just about to kick-off and the Malvinas Basin up for grabs.

 

Who cares?

[Mao Cap]

Sell the Falklands to Argentina, give the Yanks notice that we can't afford to be in Afghanistan any longer and that we're pulling out in three years if the war's not settled by then.

 

Time we realised we're a smallish country off the north-west corner of Europe with a medium-sized population and a dire need of more cash for useful stuff, rather than killing "ragheads".

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Sell the Falklands to Argentina, give the Yanks notice that we can't afford to be in Afghanistan any longer and that we're pulling out in three years if the war's not settled by then.

 

Time we realised we're a smallish country off the north-west corner of Europe with a medium-sized population and a dire need of more cash for useful stuff, rather than killing "ragheads".

 

Spot on.

[View From The Top]

Sell the Falklands to Argentina, give the Yanks notice that we can't afford to be in Afghanistan any longer and that we're pulling out in three years if the war's not settled by then.

 

Time we realised we're a smallish country off the north-west corner of Europe with a medium-sized population and a dire need of more cash for useful stuff, rather than killing "ragheads".

 

Damn right.

[Wilko]

Cracking under the pressure, eh?

 

But the MoD can afford to shell out thousands per town on Armed Forces day and the Government is preparing to renew Trident at the cost of billions.

 

Cut the services and pay for hospitals, schools, the state pension and free care for the elderly. We'd end up with a much better country. As our commie cap-wearing friend says above, we aren't the world police any more.

[Thedelldays]

Who cares?

the billions of barrells of oil in the region...and maybe the falkland islanders

[Thedelldays]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8507998.stm

[Wilko]

the billions of barrells of oil in the region

 

Inanimate objects are incapable of feellings.

[Thedelldays]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8518982.stm

[Crab Lungs]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8518982.stm

 

Hmmmm... I wonder if they're considering having another pop?

[aintforever]

the billions of barrells of oil in the region...and maybe the falkland islanders

 

I don't think most people care if Argentina has the oil or the Falkland islands.

[Thedelldays]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1251901/Falkland-Islands-oil-row-Argentina-warns-UK-complacency.html

[Thedelldays]

I see Venezuela have piped up about the Falklands in favour of the argies...with Chavez making a personal address to the Queen on their national TV

[dune]

I see Venezuela have piped up about the Falklands in favour of the argies...with Chavez making a personal address to the Queen on their national TV

 

Oh no! Not Venezuela. We must be ****ting ourselves now.

 

"Look, England, how long are you going to be in Las Malvinas? Queen of England, I'm talking to you," said Mr Chavez.

 

"The time for empires are over, haven't you noticed? Return the Malvinas to the Argentine people."

 

Still addressing the Queen, he went on: "The English are still threatening Argentina. Things have changed. We are no longer in 1982. If conflict breaks out, be sure Argentina will not be alone like it was back then."

Edited 23 February, 2010 by dune

[Seaford Saint]

It has been the same in this country for decades. Politicians listen to the Public Will, which is largely anti-war [who isn't], but they take it too far and leave us too threadbare.

 

Been reading up on the TSR2, just for interest. Mid 1950's, the RAF issue a vague requirement for a supersonic strike aircraft, capable of flying all the way to Russia at high or extreme low level, smoothly and with just the fuel it could carry. The initial designs were drawn up. English Electric and Vickers were selected as joint manufacturers, with Vickers as senior partner, even though they had no experience in supersonic aircraft and EE had successful years of it. They argued where to build/test it, either at Vickers, who hadn't a long enough runway, or EE who had. So they built and tested it at Boscombe Down in Wiltshire, miles away from either company.

 

Then they changed the design at least 5 times in a major way, while the RAF changed/refined its requirements. In 1964, the engineers had overcome the difficulties and designed and built an aircraft that was at least 20 years ahead of its time [for example, it was better than the Tornado which came 15 years later], when the U.S. F-111 came up for offer. The British government decided to cancel TSR2, and buy the F-111 even though it was a much worse aircraft, had its own major difficulties, which the U.S. hadn't as yet overcome, but was cheaper at the time. They even destroyed the jigs, tools and equipment which made the TSR2 so it was much costlier to go back on the decision. By the time the U.S. sorted the problems, the cost of the F-111 was more than the TSR2, so we didn't buy it, and not a single job had been created within the main British aircraft industry, whereas before, potential customers has started to queue up for the completed TSR2.

 

That's how you f*** up an industry, and the armed force that depends on them, and the jobs and skills that go to waste. Only a British government could do it.

 

I remember the TSR2 from discussions we had in our classroom 45 years ago, the teacher was hopping mad that it had been cancelled....where have you been reading about it?

[Crab Lungs]

Oh no! Not Venezuela. We must be ****ting ourselves now.

 

"Look, England, how long are you going to be in Las Malvinas? Queen of England, I'm talking to you," said Mr Chavez.

 

"The time for empires are over, haven't you noticed? Return the Malvinas to the Argentine people."

 

Still addressing the Queen, he went on: "The English are still threatening Argentina. Things have changed. We are no longer in 1982. If conflict breaks out, be sure Argentina will not be alone like it was back then."

 

And if it come to it we will flatten both of you, make no mistake.

[Thedelldays]

Oh no! Not Venezuela. We must be ****ting ourselves now.

 

."

 

 

with 10 years of major cutbacks and personnel/hardware tied up in the middles and afghan..added to the probably thought that the Task Force in 82 itself was probably the size of the whole of the fighting element of the RN today..we would be massively hard pressed logistically to do anything about an argie invasion what so ever (if those stationed down there could not keep them at bay)

 

however, we are far more prepared than ever before to deal with another "falklands" in terms of operation capability

[dune]

with 10 years of major cutbacks and personnel/hardware tied up in the middles and afghan..added to the probably thought that the Task Force in 82 itself was probably the size of the whole of the fighting element of the RN today..we would be massively hard pressed logistically to do anything about an argie invasion what so ever (if those stationed down there could not keep them at bay)

 

however, we are far more prepared than ever before to deal with another "falklands" in terms of operation capability

 

The Falklands is as much about national pride as oil. We'll have a Conservative government soon and you can rest assured we'll not hesitate to send the fleet in again if need be.

[Thedelldays]

The Falklands is as much about national pride as oil. We'll have a Conservative government soon and you can rest assured we'll not hesitate to send the fleet in again if need be.

that is if we have a fleet to actually send..

[dune]

that is if we have a fleet to actually send..

 

As you say the crucial part is not to be caught on the hop. British intelligence has moved on since the early 1980's and the CIA will be keeping us updated as they did before (although the US remained neutral in the conflict). We've already "quietly" increased our presence in the region. The element of surprise won't catch us out again.

[derry]

We took the gun out of the Typhoon, initially put in concrete ballast which didn't work, so we put the gun back in but can't use it as there is no fire control system.

 

Chinooks for special forces bought new but incompatible systems mean they have never been used.

 

You couldn't make it up.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

The right for the people of the Falkland Islands to determine who governs them is worth standing up for and defending.

 

I assume compassionate people like Aintforever and Mao Cap propose relocating these inhabitants. Strip them of their culture, their livelihoods and their way of life held for generations so that we can allow the Argies to come and plunder the resources of the islands.

[Mao Cap]

Yep.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

All this ****ing nationalism makes me sick. If you lot want to get off on "giving it the big one" over a collection of rocks in the south Atlantic, why don't you move down there?

[Thedelldays]

All this ****ing nationalism makes me sick. If you lot want to get off on "giving it the big one" over a collection of rocks in the south Atlantic, why don't you move down there?

because it is their right to be part of our great union..surely as such as giving country to those who want to come here..we can extend that kindness to people and places that have a long history with us..and who CHOOSE to be part of us

 

 

or can we tell every other person who rocks up at dover who was faced with an agressor to bugger off to their own country?

[TopGun]

This is clearly a pre-election story stirred up by senior armed forces personnel and MoD mandarins. The Commons Defence Committee is made up of MPs who have an interest in the armed forces and their views will always be parochial. The same applies to other Parliamentary select committees.

 

All government departments are feeling the strain at the moment. Universities funding is being slashed, NHS Trusts are under pressure to work more efficiently and local authorities across the country expect to make huge redundancies this year.

 

I know TDD has a vested interest but there are other considerations as well.

 

I very much doubt whether a new Tory government would give any extra special attention to the armed forces either, given they are calling for more spending cuts (Osborne) whilst Labour says it will continue to spend what it can (though increasing debt) to get the nation properly out of recession.

Edited 23 February, 2010 by TopGun

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Tedious student politics devoid of an understanding of the real world and how nations work and the responsibilty a nation owes to its citizens.

[TopGun]

that is if we have a fleet to actually send..

 

Why would we need a fleet? Surely you would be possibly part of a crew on one attack sub that is perfectly adequate to keep the rusty old Argentine Navy and any supply ships it might have at bay?

 

Had we had an attack sub in the South Atlantic rather than a big red research vessel with no attack capability in 1981/82 then there would have been no invasion.

 

I think we have about nine attack subs TDD??? Even if only three are at sea at any time, one can cover the South Atlantic west coast adequately enough to deter any Argentine aggression provided the message is made loud and clear. And some of the rest can get there quickly enough.

Edited 23 February, 2010 by TopGun

[dune]

All this ****ing nationalism makes me sick. If you lot want to get off on "giving it the big one" over a collection of rocks in the south Atlantic, why don't you move down there?

 

It's a good job your grandparents had a little more about them when Hitlers army faced us accross the channel.

 

Why have you so little respect for the rights of Falkland Islanders to determine their own destiny?

[dune]

I think we have about nine attack subs TDD??? Even if only three are at sea at any time, one can cover the South Atlantic west coast adequately enough to deter any Argentine aggression provided the message is made loud and clear. And some of the rest can get there quickly enough.

 

The fact the Argies are mouthing off now demonstrates that they need teaching a proper lesson. If they so much as fire a shot we should take the fight to them and make a pre-emptive strike on their naval bases. Criple them before they know what's hit them.

[so22saint]

Right. Falklands - I love the hypocrisy on here - **** the Falkland Islanders, why are we in Britain trying to keep them - nationalism etc.

 

Frankly, one of the best things about our country is that we invented democracy in it's modern form and took it around the world. On the whole we're a tolerant nation who accept ideas and run with them, have free education and health, while still leading the world in high technology (particularly materials science and high-tech light engineering).

 

So, the simple answer for the Falklands is - hold a referendum of the people who actually ****ing live there - if they want to remain British then let them. They live there. For Argentina to "want them back" is nationalism in it's worst form, as is all this Empires are over bull**** from Chavez.

 

So, having probably annoyed TDD with the tolerance comment (joke mate), I'll totally back him up on the armed forces thing. With the exception of the 1200 men we have down there, we'll struggle to defend the Falklands. We lost our real ability to project power with Hermes - the Invicible class are really helicopter carriers and we don't have Sea Harriers with radar anymore. If we want to support the right of the British people to have the right to live in their own homes that they've grown up in we need to rebuild our forces somehow.

 

How can we afford it - probably we can't to be honest. Over the past 50 years we've outsourced our manufacturing to offshore companies losing a skills base, and an ability for heavy manufacturing and retooling our economy primarily to services - an industry that manufactures nothing physical so is even easier to offshore (I talk as the owner of a small multi-million pound software house) and so this is now leaving in droves meaning that basically our workforce is now living on government money, which basically means money we've borrowed from other countries.

 

It's unsustainable, but there's an interesting sting coming. The USA are in exactly the same place x 10, but with the worlds largest military by far. With the recent selling of weapons to Taipai, the meeting with the Dalai Laama etc. I can't help thinking that China is about to find the old adage "if you owe the bank a tenner, they own you, if you owe them a million, you own them" is about to come back to haunt them. Or in other words "President Obama, why have you defaulted on your trillion dollar debt? President Obama, President.... 'he's hung up'".

[TopGun]

Project sea power with Hermes? I take it you are at least 55 and harking back SO22 or very young with no idea of modern sea power projection!

[so22saint]

Project sea power with Hermes? I take it you are at least 55 and harking back SO22 or very young with no idea of modern sea power projection!

 

Heh, closer to 55 than young so yes ;-)

 

You're spot on on the subs though mate - well mentioned. They're something else we lead the world in - and I do know of what I speak there ;-).

[TopGun]

Heh, closer to 55 than young so yes ;-)

 

You're spot on on the subs though mate - well mentioned. They're something else we lead the world in - and I do know of what I speak there ;-).

 

 

I do have the odd disagreement with TDD but it does seem to me that maintaining a good attack sub fleet should merit investment above many other areas in defence and elsewhere. And, as you point out SO22, we are good at that technology and that offers export potential in either component or completed form.

[TopGun]

The Falklands is as much about national pride as oil. We'll have a Conservative government soon and you can rest assured we'll not hesitate to send the fleet in again if need be.

 

I take it you have moved away from your previous pro-BNP rants and are now a Tory again Dune?

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

It's a good job your grandparents had a little more about them when Hitlers army faced us accross the channel.

 

Why have you so little respect for the rights of Falkland Islanders to determine their own destiny?

 

Yes, comparing Hitler with the 'situation' in the Falkland Islands...yeah, that's the same!

 

It was not theirs to 'determine' in the first place. As I've pointed out several times, they were Argentina's before 1833, yet when Spain moved out of a place where we had a few crappy fishing stations Britain saw the chance to expand it's territorial claims.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

So then Thorpe Le Saint how many Argentinian settlers have ever lived on the Falklands? Surely have inhabited the islands for the longest the Islanders have the right to determine THEIR ISLANDS. The Islands were discovered by Europeans not Argies.

 

Well actually if you look at the Falklands then there are quite a lot of similarities with Hitler. We defeated a fascist military junta - the reason why Socialists like Michael Foot supported the war. Ironically Blair was against action

 

Instead of playing around in the student union I suggest you go to the library and read your facts up.

[bungle]

It's a good job your grandparents had a little more about them when Hitlers army faced us accross the channel.

 

Why have you so little respect for the rights of Falkland Islanders to determine their own destiny?

 

Of course, if we all read your favourite rag, we'd have welcomed Hitler with open arms.

 

You win some, you lose some. In your case, you lose them all.

[Thedelldays]

are the Hispanics on PMT..?

 

http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=18385