Thedelldays Posted 5 February, 2010 Share Posted 5 February, 2010 last episode tonight... the series was how the RN was the corner stone that produced one of the worlds greatest Empires.. interesting viewing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilsburydoughboy Posted 5 February, 2010 Share Posted 5 February, 2010 Have watched every episode. Interesting viewing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 5 February, 2010 Share Posted 5 February, 2010 I've been watching it. It's not as if you learn anything new, but the reminders and the presentation by Dan Snow is quite refreshing. And it has made me reach to the shelf for my copy of Sam Pepys diaries. Mind you, that was to find the entry where he can't find the cheese he had buried in his garden. Good series though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manji Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 Excellent series generally but by the end I started to get irritated by endless unneccasary shots of Dan Snow poncing around in various types of sailing vessels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 Like Southampton Football Club , the Royal Navy has always been close to my heart , probably because my late father served in the 'Grey Funnel Line' during WWII . So it was with a keen sense of anticipation that I watched this interesting if not particularly surprising (to me anyway) series . It was sobering however to be reminded that in the not so very distant past the RN was at the very centre of British national life and a source of enormous pride to the nation . Now by way of contrast I doubt if next government were to screw the navy over again and cancel/sell the new 'Queen Elizabeth' class carriers whether the great British public would notice or even care very much . You will surely get the navy you deserve , if the public don't care enough then the politicians will surely continue to cut our already perilously small navy until there's virtually nothing left . You will naturally all make up your own minds about whom you vote for in this coming election , but I personally will not support any party that refuses to fund a proper navy . I urge others to consider doing the same . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 the navy has been torn apart under labour....... here is a list of units that have been retired since 1997.....with only a handfull of replacements.. http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2010-02-04a.314672.h yet, the powers at be want the RN (and the other forces) to do more than they have for 50+ years.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 the navy has been torn apart under labour....... here is a list of units that have been retired since 1997.....with only a handfull of replacements.. http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2010-02-04a.314672.h yet, the powers at be want the RN (and the other forces) to do more than they have for 50+ years.. Every RN guy I know from pipe fitter to senior officer bleats the same. As do the Army and RAF. If we ain't got the dosh, we ain't got the dosh. Thatcher flogged off the shipyards expertise so there you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 Every RN guy I know from pipe fitter to senior officer bleats the same. As do the Army and RAF. If we ain't got the dosh, we ain't got the dosh. Thatcher flogged off the shipyards expertise so there you go. we have the dosh..you only have to look at the size of the fench forces (with their independant nuclear deterrent) compared to ours..and the cost as for ship building...through the 80-90-00s we have been building ships..at some point...right..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 (edited) we have the dosh..you only have to look at the size of the fench forces (with their independant nuclear deterrent) compared to ours..and the cost as for ship building...through the 80-90-00s we have been building ships..at some point...right..? 1. We don't have the dosh. Odds are at least one of the new carriers will become an assault heli ship cos no money, Unless you want to take it away from NHS, education etc. We are on a giant deficit atm. Maybe just one assault ship as there is one hull with the F-35 program going to ****. 2. Thatcher's government destroyed ship building expertise in the UK cos it was viewed as socialist unionist troublemakers. So she shut it. Excellent idea. Ships are now built in Japan. Edited 6 February, 2010 by TopGun Forgot point 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 1. We don't have the dosh. Odds are at least one of the new carriers will become an assault heli ship cos no money, Unless you want to take it away from NHS, education etc. We are on a giant deficit atm. Maybe just one assault ship as there is one hull with the F-35 program going to ****. 2. Thatcher's government destroyed ship building expertise in the UK cos it was viewed as socialist unionist troublemakers. So she shut it. Excellent idea. Ships are now built in Japan. what RN warships are built in Japan..?.you are going WAAAAY off topic.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 what RN warships are built in Japan..?.you are going WAAAAY off topic.. No. Ships are built in Japan, and elsewhere. Not in the UK. The UK shipyards that had the skills and the ports to build panamax containerised ships for modern trade were shut down by Thatcher. The UK had the skills, wherewithal and docks to build the massive container ships that are being built elsewhere at one every two weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 No. Ships are built in Japan, and elsewhere. Not in the UK. The UK shipyards that had the skills and the ports to build panamax containerised ships for modern trade were shut down by Thatcher. The UK had the skills, wherewithal and docks to build the massive container ships that are being built elsewhere at one every two weeks. ok...will leave that there..was talking about the RN and how it was once great and now a shadow of its former self.. I have no real interest in the UK conatainer ship building industry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 ok...will leave that there..was talking about the RN and how it was once great and now a shadow of its former self.. I have no real interest in the UK conatainer ship building industry... Well, you're a fool if you think there is no link. Who do you think builds ships? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 Well, you're a fool if you think there is no link. brilliant...can we get back on topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 brilliant...can we get back on topic Yes, artificers, riveters, welders, designers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway the series was great...I hear something similar will follow up this bring into play the navy in the 20th century Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway the series was great...I hear something similar will follow up this bring into play the navy in the 20th century Probably drones flown from places in west London you claim to have been at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 Probably drones flown from places in west London you claim to have been at. you what..? what is your issue..I am clearly not wanting to get into a tittle tattle with you.. please leave it. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 the navy has been torn apart under labour....... here is a list of units that have been retired since 1997.....with only a handfull of replacements.. http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2010-02-04a.314672.h yet, the powers at be want the RN (and the other forces) to do more than they have for 50+ years.. This is very true but to be fair the RN & the Labour Government of the day did reach an agreement under the last strategic defence review (Options for Change) in which the RN agreed to make (painful) reductions in its existing force struture in return for the government agreeing to fund a return to the fleet carrier business . The carriers are on order and under construction as promised - I would hope all political parties can see the importance of maintaining this vital programme . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 This is very true but to be fair the RN & the Labour Government of the day did reach an agreement under the last strategic defence review (Options for Change) in which the RN agreed to make (painful) reductions in its existing force struture in return for the government agreeing to fund a return to the fleet carrier business . The carriers are on order and under construction as promised - I would hope all political parties can see the importance of maintaining this vital programme . indeed...the selling off of the T23s to chile and retiring of some of the destroyers early have casued to bit of a black hole.. that with Daring being late...and not to mention astute...that is crippling the SM service.. hard to imagine the size of the RN and the forces in general when during the show they mentioned that the UK had 30-odd Dreadnoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 This is very true but to be fair the RN & the Labour Government of the day did reach an agreement under the last strategic defence review (Options for Change) in which the RN agreed to make (painful) reductions in its existing force struture in return for the government agreeing to fund a return to the fleet carrier business . The carriers are on order and under construction as promised - I would hope all political parties can see the importance of maintaining this vital programme . You put forward a coherent argument Charlie unlike TDD. But the problem is so do the army and the RAF. There in, lies the rub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 You put forward a coherent argument Charlie unlike TDD. But the problem is so do the army and the RAF. There in, lies the rub. what...what is your problem today...what have I said that is not true.. im not posting here to look at the whys and wheres of how the we have less ships/subs/tanks/planes and troops as I dont think any of us said there problems did not exist within the RAF and Army..ffs, the RAF is facing the prospect being closed down according to Jock Stirrup.. we are just posting general chit chat on the thread title.. get over yourself and have a chill pill you seem keen on getting me (or someone) to have a ding dong with you good day sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 what...what is your problem today...what have I said that is not true.. im not posting here to look at the whys and wheres of how the we have less ships/subs/tanks/planes and troops as I dont think any of us said there problems did not exist within the RAF and Army..ffs, the RAF is facing the prospect being closed down according to Jock Stirrup.. we are just posting general chit chat on the thread title.. get over yourself and have a chill pill you seem keen on getting me (or someone) to have a ding dong with you good day sir I just dislike nonsense. That's all. You know I have no issue with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 I just dislike nonsense. That's all. You know I have no issue with you. ok...please quote what I have posted that is untrue....not the whys and whens..what on this thread is untrue.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 ok...please quote what I have posted that is untrue....not the whys and whens..what on this thread is untrue.... Nothing you have said is quite untrue. It's your blind belief that beggars all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 Nothing you have said is quite untrue. It's your blind belief that beggars all. so nothing I have posted is untrue and I have thrown in a few sentances about the thread.. and you say you have no issue with me.. :smt119 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 last episode tonight... the series was how the RN was the corner stone that produced one of the worlds greatest Empires.. interesting viewing the navy has been torn apart under labour....... here is a list of units that have been retired since 1997.....with only a handfull of replacements.. http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2010-02-04a.314672.h yet, the powers at be want the RN (and the other forces) to do more than they have for 50+ years.. we have the dosh..you only have to look at the size of the fench forces (with their independant nuclear deterrent) compared to ours..and the cost as for ship building...through the 80-90-00s we have been building ships..at some point...right..? what RN warships are built in Japan..?.you are going WAAAAY off topic.. ok...will leave that there..was talking about the RN and how it was once great and now a shadow of its former self.. I have no real interest in the UK conatainer ship building industry... brilliant...can we get back on topic aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway the series was great...I hear something similar will follow up this bring into play the navy in the 20th century you what..? what is your issue..I am clearly not wanting to get into a tittle tattle with you.. please leave it. thanks indeed...the selling off of the T23s to chile and retiring of some of the destroyers early have casued to bit of a black hole.. that with Daring being late...and not to mention astute...that is crippling the SM service.. hard to imagine the size of the RN and the forces in general when during the show they mentioned that the UK had 30-odd Dreadnoughts... what...what is your problem today...what have I said that is not true.. im not posting here to look at the whys and wheres of how the we have less ships/subs/tanks/planes and troops as I dont think any of us said there problems did not exist within the RAF and Army..ffs, the RAF is facing the prospect being closed down according to Jock Stirrup.. we are just posting general chit chat on the thread title.. get over yourself and have a chill pill you seem keen on getting me (or someone) to have a ding dong with you good day sir ok...please quote what I have posted that is untrue....not the whys and whens..what on this thread is untrue.... Nothing you have said is quite untrue. It's your blind belief that beggars all. yes...I can see blind belief in that lot... :smt119 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 so nothing I have posted is untrue and I have thrown in a few sentances about the thread.. and you say you have no issue with me.. :smt119 No. Watch your semantics. I have never said you have stated knowingly or unknowingly truths or untruths. I just feel you talk ****. But that's not an issue for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 6 February, 2010 No. Watch your semantics. I have never said you have stated knowingly or unknowingly truths or untruths. I just feel you talk ****. . You know I have no issue with you. I really think that you do....it seems it seems you are getting wound up for what reason with me that has nothing to do with this thread.. I think that is called "trolling".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 I really think that you do....it seems it seems you are getting wound up for what reason with me that has nothing to do with this thread.. I think that is called "trolling".... TDD, you flipped out recently and asked the mods to disable your account. You seem to have changed your mind about that. That's good because your are part of the forum like me and others! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 6 February, 2010 Share Posted 6 February, 2010 last episode tonight... the series was how the RN was the corner stone that produced one of the worlds greatest Empires.. interesting viewing I'm just finishing a book called Lost Voices of the RN which are 1st had accounts of naval life from both WWI & WWII. If you'd like to read it once I've finished it PM me your address and I'll post it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miserableoldgit Posted 7 February, 2010 Share Posted 7 February, 2010 Excellent series. I particularly enjoyed the "Nelson" episode. He is my personal hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeem Hardison Posted 7 February, 2010 Share Posted 7 February, 2010 I watched it. I was expecting a bit more bumming. A bit disappointing, if I'm honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 7 February, 2010 Share Posted 7 February, 2010 Excellent series. I particularly enjoyed the "Nelson" episode. He is my personal hero. I read Nelson's biography, written by Terry Coleman, a couple of years back and it showed Nelson in quite a critical light, as most modern biographies tend to do, where they uncover the negative traits of various heroes as if they are to be set against the myth. Coleman's version did reveal a couple of things I didn't know though. One, that Nelson was almost invariably seasick whilst aboard ship, [something that I have yet to encounter in 25 on-off years of sailing] and two, that all his injuries, apart from his fatal one, were received while leading or orchestrating land skimishes. It was written that he was as inept at land battles as he was brilliant at sea. As to the Royal Navy being knocked down to size, it is fantasy to expect GB to spend the sort of money to keep a massive presence all over the world. GB is a reasonably strong nation on the edge of Europe, with the 4th largest national economy in the world. But it is no longer the huge super power that it once was. I occasionally think people don't quite realise the utter dominance this country had over the rest of the world, from the mid 18th century to the beginning of the 20th. No other single nation has since had that influence, and probably never will have. Nowadays, GB has better things to do than go around being the world's floating policeman. Let someone else do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 7 February, 2010 Share Posted 7 February, 2010 I think people should be quite concerned about the Chinese Navy within the next 30 years or so. As for money for the UK Forces, NHS, Benefits etc well there is only so much money being paid in Tax and with companies trying not to pay ( a certain name springs to mind ) and with the financial problems world wide lots of things will have to be cut from the UK National budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miserableoldgit Posted 7 February, 2010 Share Posted 7 February, 2010 I read Nelson's biography, written by Terry Coleman, a couple of years back and it showed Nelson in quite a critical light, as most modern biographies tend to do, where they uncover the negative traits of various heroes as if they are to be set against the myth. Coleman's version did reveal a couple of things I didn't know though. One, that Nelson was almost invariably seasick whilst aboard ship, [something that I have yet to encounter in 25 on-off years of sailing] and two, that all his injuries, apart from his fatal one, were received while leading or orchestrating land skimishes. It was written that he was as inept at land battles as he was brilliant at sea. As to the Royal Navy being knocked down to size, it is fantasy to expect GB to spend the sort of money to keep a massive presence all over the world. GB is a reasonably strong nation on the edge of Europe, with the 4th largest national economy in the world. But it is no longer the huge super power that it once was. I occasionally think people don't quite realise the utter dominance this country had over the rest of the world, from the mid 18th century to the beginning of the 20th. No other single nation has since had that influence, and probably never will have. Nowadays, GB has better things to do than go around being the world's floating policeman. Let someone else do it. Nelson certainly had his flaws both as a man and as a Navy man. He was vain, treated his wife, Fanny, very badly and loved the ecoutrements of rank. He was also very sickly in later life. Not only did he suffer quite badly from sea-sickness but at the time of Trafalgar was virtually blind and, of course, short of an arm. He also had many other ailments. I admire him thought for his single-mindedness and determination to do his duty. He was loved and respected by both ordinary seamen and his fellow officers (His "Band of Brothers"). It is probably this mixture of faults and greatness that appeals to me. In this day and age, when people won`t go to work because of "a headache" the fact that he still, with all of the physical ailments that he had, went and did his duty, gaining a victory at Trafalgar which not only put paid to any invasion plans that Napoleon had, but also gave the Royal Navy supremacy of the seas for over 100 years, is in my mind heroic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackanorySFC Posted 8 February, 2010 Share Posted 8 February, 2010 Just read the Autobiography of a guy called Thomas Cochrane (google him - true British Naval fighting legend), on his first meeting with Nelson he was a young Midshipman eager to impress him so started talking about manouvers/ charts etc. Nelson stopped him and said "forget your charts and manourvers, all you need to know to be a great captain is simply whenever you see the enemy, don't dilly dally - get into them". Quality advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 8 February, 2010 Share Posted 8 February, 2010 Nelson certainly had his flaws both as a man and as a Navy man. He was vain, treated his wife, Fanny, very badly and loved the ecoutrements of rank. He was also very sickly in later life. Not only did he suffer quite badly from sea-sickness but at the time of Trafalgar was virtually blind and, of course, short of an arm. He also had many other ailments. I admire him thought for his single-mindedness and determination to do his duty. He was loved and respected by both ordinary seamen and his fellow officers (His "Band of Brothers"). It is probably this mixture of faults and greatness that appeals to me. In this day and age, when people won`t go to work because of "a headache" the fact that he still, with all of the physical ailments that he had, went and did his duty, gaining a victory at Trafalgar which not only put paid to any invasion plans that Napoleon had, but also gave the Royal Navy supremacy of the seas for over 100 years, is in my mind heroic. I certainly wouldn't disagree. Hopefully, you saw that I was describing how modern biographers work their subject matter. It tends to blemish the hero or heroine. For all his faults, I think Nelson was as much of the classic hero as it is possible to be. Every tribute and monument to him is justified, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 8 February, 2010 Share Posted 8 February, 2010 (edited) As to the Royal Navy being knocked down to size, it is fantasy to expect GB to spend the sort of money to keep a massive presence all over the world. GB is a reasonably strong nation on the edge of Europe, with the 4th largest national economy in the world. But it is no longer the huge super power that it once was. I occasionally think people don't quite realise the utter dominance this country had over the rest of the world, from the mid 18th century to the beginning of the 20th. No other single nation has since had that influence, and probably never will have. Nowadays, GB has better things to do than go around being the world's floating policeman. Let someone else do it. I don't think anyone is asking for a 'massive navy' like we had at Jutland or even the much reduced RN that existed in 1939 . What I do say however is that an island nation that maintains an extensive system of worldwide alliances and depends on the freedom of the sea for 92% of its trade does still require a significant navy to protect its vital interests and further its foriegn policy . Many might be surprised to know that our once formidable navy has been reduced to little more than 25 Destroyers and Frigates and a handful of submarines - Nelson's navy is now much the same size as that of France or Italy . Any further substantial cuts and the Royal Navy will be little more than a pathetic coastal defence force , a navy that counts for little in the world and that is entirely incapable of mounting major operations anymore such as the Falklands . Were something like the Falklands to happen again (or say Iran decided to close the Strait of Hormuz to British registered ships for instance) then I would find your recommendation that we sit back and plead for 'someone else' to defend our national interests both offensive and shameful frankly . :mad: Edited 8 February, 2010 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 8 February, 2010 Author Share Posted 8 February, 2010 I don't think anyone is asking for a 'massive navy' like we had at Jutland or even the much reduced RN that existed in 1939 . What I do say however is that an island nation that maintains an extensive system of worldwide alliances and depends on the freedom of the sea for 92% of its trade does still require a significant navy to protect its vital interests and further its foriegn policy . Many might be surprised to know that our once formidable navy has been reduced to little more than 25 Destroyers and Frigates and a handful of submarines - Nelson's navy is now much the same size as that of France or Italy . Any further substantial cuts and the Royal Navy will be little more than a pathetic coastal defence force , a navy that counts for little in the world and that is entirely incapable of mounting major operations anymore such as the Falklands . Were something like the Falklands to happen again (or say Iran decided to close the Strait of Hormuz to British registered ships for instance) then I would find your recommendation that we sit back and plead for 'someone else' to defend our national interests both offensive and shameful frankly . :mad: agree with that..here is a post that I put onto another thread when someone questioned the need for the armed forces etc.. I will provide a few reason for the RN...you can make your own mind if it still has a role today.. around 70% of the worlds surface is the sea, 2/3 of the worlds population live within 100 miles of the sea, nearly all the states signed up to the UN have a coast and obviously, the UK is a coastal nation something like 90% of the worlds trade is done via the seas by over half a million sea farers..95% of the world sea trade passes through just 9 bottle neck type of areas like the suez canal and are absolutely essential to the industry..in the last 40-odd years the worlds population has exploded and trade via the seas has quadrupled and both are still growing.. these 'bottle neck areas' which the UK needs, like the Suez, Gib straits, Malacca Straits, bab el mendeb straits etc need protecting, our trade needs protecting..and the RN simply cannot do that anymore with the cuts that keep happening.. lets bring it a tad closer to home UK sea trade is one of the top 5 earners for the UKPLC with 95% of our visible trade done on the ocean (see a pattern).. the UK is the worlds 5th largest exporter of goods (value wise) and this trade is essential..not just needed but essential. UK shipping earns UKPLC around £1m per hour, every day, something like 18 tonnes of freight per second passes throuh UK sea ports......you can see how it is in all of our best interests that this is protected..and protected well.. then you have the emerging Piracy issue in the Indian Ocean..our trade (see above) is very vulnerable and it would be a rich prize to get hold of a UK vessel..also, the casual sea goer needs looking after in that part of the world... as for looking after people... the RN provides and essential air support to the UK search and rescue force which is vital to groups like the RNLI etc..the Surface fleet provide and are highly trained in dishing out humanitarian aid is times of disaster...a groups of RN ships is en route right now to Haiti... then you have to factor the Combat element and the fishery protection element of the RN..after all it is the military..ships on patrol in the Gulf, off the UK, in the Med etc etc this is my opinion..im sure people in the Army and RAF could make a similar case for their service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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