How Important is Grammar??

[miserableoldgit]

I went to school in the 50's and 60's and grammar, spelling, and puntuation were very important and great emphasis was placed on their teaching. Now, they don't seem very important at all. How do other people feel about this?? In this day and age of texting, internet forums etc, does it matter?

 

The things that I find particularly irritating are the use of "of" instead of "have" ("I could of..." instead of "I could have...") and the inability to differentiate between "their", "there" and "they're".

 

Do the rules of the English language matter or is this just natural progress.

[Whitey Grandad]

I totally agree with you.

 

I also think that it should be "50s and 60s"

[miserableoldgit]

I totally agree with you.

 

I also think that it should be "50s and 60s"

 

"He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword!!" Touche!

[Golactico]

I was at school in the 70s & 80s and I remember it being hammered home that a job application form with poor spelling and/or grammer would be the first in the bin.

 

I was helping with an assessment of application forms at work a while back and immediately sifted out those forms with spelling mistakes/poor grammer (just lazy in this day and age with 'spellcheck' etc available). I was told that these applicants could not be sifted out on those grounds as it wasn't deemed to be an important criteria.

 

To answer your question, I think good English does matter, but that this is increasingly becoming an old fashioed view.

 

(I've no doubt someone will find some bad spelling/grammer in this post, just to knock me off my high horse!))

[pedg]

I was at school in the 70s & 80s and I remember it being hammered home that a job application form with poor spelling and/or grammer would be the first in the bin.

 

I was helping with an assessment of application forms at work a while back and immediately sifted out those forms with spelling mistakes/poor grammer (just lazy in this day and age with 'spellcheck' etc available). I was told that these applicants could not be sifted out on those grounds as it wasn't deemed to be an important criteria.

 

To answer your question, I think good English does matter, but that this is increasingly becoming an old fashioed view.

 

(I've no doubt someone will find some bad spelling/grammer in this post, just to knock me off my high horse!))

 

ehhem

[Kingsland Codger]

The reason for any language existing is for people to communicate with each other and to be understood. At times this means being extremely precise in what one is trying to say. There can be a huge difference in meaning with just one letter being incorrectly typed - e.g. Andy Murray is due in court to day or Andy Murray is due on court today.

 

To this extent, spelling and grammar are extremely important.

 

However, in everyday usage the importance is overplayed. I would far rather someone write an opinion that was stimulating and original even if it contained a harmless spelling error.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

I was at school in the 70s & 80s and I remember it being hammered home that a job application form with poor spelling and/or grammer would be the first in the bin.

 

I was helping with an assessment of application forms at work a while back and immediately sifted out those forms with spelling mistakes/poor grammer (just lazy in this day and age with 'spellcheck' etc available). I was told that these applicants could not be sifted out on those grounds as it wasn't deemed to be an important criteria.

 

To answer your question, I think good English does matter, but that this is increasingly becoming an old fashioed view.

 

(I've no doubt someone will find some bad spelling/grammer in this post, just to knock me off my high horse!))

 

I just had to do it.

 

grammar (not 'er')

etc. (abbreviation)

criterion (singular)

fashioned

[bungle]

pwn3d.

[St Marco]

I guess the morale of this story is to not complain about grammar

[norwaysaint]

This is all such a load of reactive nonsense.

 

I've spent years teaching at primary schools in England and then at international schools following British systems. We always had weekly spelling tests at all levels and a large part of the timetable for English was given over to grammar work. This was all followed up with homework.

 

Grammar and spelling are still being taught in schools and are still considered important. Most of the damage is done by children being enabled by their parents to spend excessive amounts of time using the internet, where good grammar is often frowned upon, and being given mobile phones at a young age, not just for emergency use, but as a social tool. On top of this children are allowed to watch large amounts of television where poor grammar is often used. Some parents, unbelievably, even put TVs and internet into children's bedrooms.

 

I would like to see the curriculum you've obviously got hold of, that doesn't contain grammar as a key skill.

 

Teachers can only fight so hard against the environment parents are putting their children into.

[miserableoldgit]

I guess the morale of this story is to not complain about grammar

Moral not morale!

[do i not like fizzy pop]

She was very important to me my Grammar

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll get my coat........

[miserableoldgit]

I think that a lot of the problems are down to laziness and not actually caring whether things are correct . I see posts written as one long sentence (when, in fact, there are meant to be several) with no basic puntuation and no capital letters. You can generally understand what the poster is trying to say, but this is not always the case. Thank goodness for Babelfish!!

[miserableoldgit]

This is all such a load of reactive nonsense.

 

I've spent years teaching at primary schools in England and then at international schools following British systems. We always had weekly spelling tests at all levels and a large part of the timetable for English was given over to grammar work. This was all followed up with homework.

 

Grammar and spelling are still being taught in schools and are still considered important. Most of the damage is done by children being enabled by their parents to spend excessive amounts of time using the internet, where good grammar is often frowned upon, and being given mobile phones at a young age, not just for emergency use, but as a social tool. On top of this children are allowed to watch large amounts of television where poor grammar is often used. Some parents, unbelievably, even put TVs and internet into children's bedrooms.

 

I would like to see the curriculum you've obviously got hold of, that doesn't contain grammar as a key skill.

 

Teachers can only fight so hard against the environment parents are putting their children into.

 

Pot and Kettle? If you read my post, I did not query as to whether these things are still as taught with such importance at school. I have nothing but admiration for teachers and the work that they do. My question was a general one asking how people viewed the importance of good grammar.

 

I do agree with you about the parenting side of things, but this was meant as a general discussion point. No agenda.

Edited 29 January, 2010 by miserableoldgit

[norwaysaint]

I went to school in the 50's and 60's and grammar, spelling, and puntuation were very important and great emphasis was placed on their teaching. Now, they don't seem very important at all.

 

I did not query as to whether these things are still as taught with such importance at school.

 

I think it could certainly be read that way.

[amsterdam]

She was very important to me my Grammar

 

You were in the St Winifred's School Choir?!

 

(and you missed a comma, by the way...)

 

I think grammar is very important and nag my kids constantly about it. To be fair, I find myself being anal about it sometimes ("Who does this belong to?" rather than "To whom does this belong?", for example, is petty, but still jars...), but if I'm trying to read a book or article that is poorly written, I struggle - even when it's deliberate, like Trainspotting or the Headhunters.

 

I do agree with Norwaysaint, though, it is not just the responsibility of the school to promote better usage (or good manners, or acceptable behaviour), us parents must take much more responsibility.

[TopGun]

I think a lot of kids don't realise the importance of good grammar before they need to get a job so don't think too much about it. Many people improve their overall written skills dramatically in their twenties.

[Arizona]

I went to school in the 50's and 60's and grammar, spelling, and puntuation were very important and great emphasis was placed on their teaching. Now, they don't seem very important at all. How do other people feel about this?? In this day and age of texting, internet forums etc, does it matter?

 

The things that I find particularly irritating are the use of "of" instead of "have" ("I could of..." instead of "I could have...") and the inability to differentiate between "their", "there" and "they're".

 

Do the rules of the English language matter or is this just natural progress.

 

No need for that comma.

[miserableoldgit]

I think it could certainly be read that way.

Yes, I take your point. It just underlines the importance of words and the way that they are assembled!! I read it one way and you read it another!

 

It wasn`t a dig at schools though. I meant important to the public in general.

[Johnny Bognor]

I was at school in the 70s & 80s and I remember it being hammered home that a job application form with poor spelling and/or grammer would be the first in the bin.

 

I was helping with an assessment of application forms at work a while back and immediately sifted out those forms with spelling mistakes/poor grammer (just lazy in this day and age with 'spellcheck' etc available). I was told that these applicants could not be sifted out on those grounds as it wasn't deemed to be an important criteria.

 

I think that it does not matter on an internet forum as long as the point being made is understood and is not misconstrued by anyone.

 

However, on a job application, I would filter out applicants with poor spelling and grammar on the basis that it shows a lack of attention to detail. This is even more important if the role requires dotting the i's and crossing the t's.

 

As an aside, I have been interviewing recently and was astounded at the number of people who hadn't checked out our company before the interview stage. When I was young (pre-internet) and was applying fo a job, I would research the company as much as possible. This would be done by requesting company brochures, annual reports and such like. Nowadays, an applicant simply has to find and view a website. In my opinion, there is no excuse for not checking out a company before an interview especially as information is readily available to people. For those that hadn't bothered to look at our website, the interview was terminated toute suite, on the basis of why should I bother to read their CV and ask them questions, when they couldn't be bothered to find out about the company they were applying to join.

[Gingeletiss]

Better not let nickh see this thread.:smt024

[miserableoldgit]

No need for that comma.

It has been a long time since I was at school. I can`t remember everything!!

[Golactico]

I just had to do it.

 

grammar (not 'er')

etc. (abbreviation)

criterion (singular)

fashioned

 

You were quite right to do so DSM – it’s the only way I’ll learn not to knock off self righteous nonsense in a rush!

 

Whether he meant to or not, Johnny Bognor has pleaded my case in a later post though. On a relatively obscure internet forum, I’m really not too bothered if my grammar/spelling lapses.

[saintbletch]

I think that it does not matter on an internet forum as long as the point being made is understood and is not misconstrued by anyone.

 

This is the key for me. It's about context and making sure you can be understood easily.

 

Spelling and grammar should make the words easier to consume and should ensure that their meaning is clear and unambiguous.

 

If you're amongst friends and can achieve these things with being anal about it, then no problem.

 

That said, I do find that I am forever correcting people's postings in my head. I just can't help myself - but that's my problem not their's.

 

BUT, to be able to make that judgement about the right level of grammar and spelling for the context, students must first be taught correctly so that can make the choice. With two kids in UK schools I would say that grammar rules have become confused and therefore relaxed. I'm not sure that the teaching has been relaxed it's just that language is changing quickly.

 

Language, and the use of language will change over time. It has always done so and will continue to do so. Right now we're in the middle of an explosion of written material - in the form of internet. This content is not controlled or edited in the way that previous mediums were. This mass of material has hastened the pace of change of language which grates with people like me (and the OP I feel) but I have to just accept it.

 

While we're on the subject, shouldn't it be punctuation in the OP? Sorry MoG. I now anticipate others will help to correct the errors what I've made.

[Whitey Grandad]

I guess the morale of this story is to not complain about grammar

... or to boldly split infinitives...

 

(Fowler's 'Modern English Usage' is quite entertaining on this topic)

 

For me, correct grammar and syntax is very important. Anyone who has ever left a character out of a C program knows what the consequences can be. I would never wish to discourage anybody from expressing their views because they felt that they might be 'pulled up' because of their writing, but there are occasions where it can make all the difference.

 

Lynn Truss is also worth a read:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eats-shoots-leaves-Tolerance-Punctuation/dp/1861976127

[Gingeletiss]

I now anticipate others will help to correct the errors what I've made.

 

We are all guilty. I would say....

 

..to help correct the errors that I have made.

 

Still, we can all argue the right's and wrong's of Grammar:rolleyes:

[Arizona]

We are all guilty. I would say....

 

..to help correct the errors that I have made.

 

Still, we can all argue the right's and wrong's of Grammar:rolleyes:

 

No need for apostrophes.

[St Marco]

My grammar has most defiantly got worse over the years. I think what oldgit says is probably right, that it is a lot to do with laziness. I think that and technology have played a huge part in its demise.

Today we all seem in a rush, we text using words to save time i.e. m8, msg etc.

We very rarely actually write by hand anymore so when we type on the computer it will a lot of the time auto correct the mistakes.

Maybe they should create like an A.I in the computer which will have a go at you every time you get something wrong!

[Gingeletiss]

No need for apostrophes.

 

Thank you, I knew I should not have played this game:(

[Ziggy]

At an assessment centre the other day I was told that you could not remove applications that contained bad spelling or grammar as it could potentially be discriminatory against people with dyslexia.

[do i not like fizzy pop]

It's the use of double negatives that winds me up;

 

"I ain't done nuffin" - so you've done something then?

 

(Triple checks spelling, grammar and punctuation before clicking on 'submit post').

[saintbletch]

We are all guilty. I would say....

 

..to help correct the errors that I have made.

 

Still, we can all argue the right's and wrong's of Grammar:rolleyes:

 

I'm actually offended that you didn't realise that it was meant to be ironic. Well nearly offended. I even used a smilie to drop the hint.

 

I assumed your "right's and wrong's" and capital G for "Grammar" were ironic too.

 

Actually, I'd just had lunch with my business partner and we reminisced about those Morecambe and Wise sketches where Ern would talk about the plays "What he wrote". So I thought I'd slip one in. As it were.

[scotty]

I went to school in the 50's and 60's and grammar, spelling, and puntuation were very important and great emphasis was placed on their teaching. Now, they don't seem very important at all. How do other people feel about this?? In this day and age of texting, internet forums etc, does it matter?

 

The things that I find particularly irritating are the use of "of" instead of "have" ("I could of..." instead of "I could have...") and the inability to differentiate between "their", "there" and "they're".

 

Do the rules of the English language matter or is this just natural progress.

 

imo (), "of" instead of "have", and variants of "they're" have become part of the online language and convey different meanings. I'm a pedantic tw*t myself and a stickler for grammar and spelling, but I often use/misuse them myself, (not so much on this site as others.)

[hutch]

It's because the teachers are getting younger

[badgerx16]

No need for that comma.

It is known the 'Oxford comma', and is perfectly correct in that instance, ( and in this one ).

[badgerx16]

It's because the teachers are getting younger

It is my wife's birthday in 2 weeks, and I can confirm, even though she is indeed a teacher, she is not getting any younger.

[scotty]

well, lets hope she doesn't see this!! You'll be in deep schtuck if she does...

[rpb]

In the 70s and 80s, teaching grammar was frowned upon in the primary schools - the idea was that it prevented children from writing freely and that they would soon pick it up once they 'got going'. This attitude changed in the 90s and children are taught grammar now; however, the problem is that the current teachers were were never taught it in the first place!

[bridge too far]

I, too, am a stickler for correct grammar and spelling.

 

I refuse to patronise shops that advertise, for example, 'carrot's' or 'burger's' or any other commodity with an inappropriate apostrophe.

[scotty]

I, too, am a stickler for correct grammar and spelling.

 

I refuse to patronise shops that advertise, for example, 'carrot's' or 'burger's' or any other commodity with an inappropriate apostrophe.

 

dont move to pompey then, unless you want to starve;)

 

 

and in my experience, chippys are the worst offenders.

[badgerx16]

well, lets hope she doesn't see this!! You'll be in deep schtuck if she does...

I have and he is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

( Mrs B )

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I was at school in the 70s & 80s and I remember it being hammered home that a job application form with poor spelling and/or grammer would be the first in the bin.

 

I was helping with an assessment of application forms at work a while back and immediately sifted out those forms with spelling mistakes/poor grammer (just lazy in this day and age with 'spellcheck' etc available). I was told that these applicants could not be sifted out on those grounds as it wasn't deemed to be an important criteria.

 

To answer your question, I think good English does matter, but that this is increasingly becoming an old fashioed view.

 

(I've no doubt someone will find some bad spelling/grammer in this post, just to knock me off my high horse!))

 

ehhem

 

Grammar. Thank you.

[hutch]

... and in my experience, chippys are the worst offenders.

I don't really care about their punctuation style, as long as they hang the doors properly.

[aintforever]

I don't think it matters, as long as people know what you're saying. It's a message board not a legal document.

[St Landrew]

When I used to be in a position as a manager with hire and fire capacity, I used to reject immediately anyone without a reasonable command of English grammar and spelling, while sifting through applications forms or CVs. Of course, if a person noted that he or she was dyslexic, then these criteria were obviously not so important in selection.

 

The ability to communicate effectively is certainly amongst the most important virtues anyone can have, whether it be in speech or the written word. It's an automatic entry card.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

He made a useful contribution to 'Cheers' but I think 'Frasier' could hardly have been possible without him frankly .

[miserableoldgit]

I don't think it matters, as long as people know what you're saying. It's a message board not a legal document.

This, of course, is true, but is peoples "bad" grammar just restricted to message boards, or is it their standard way of writing things?

[bridge too far]

This, of course, is true, but is peoples "bad" grammar just restricted to message boards, or is it their standard way of writing things?

 

 

Oopsy, oopsy, oopsy

 

'People's' I think you'll find.

[miserableoldgit]

Oopsy, oopsy, oopsy

 

'People's' I think you'll find.

Oh dear. What have I started??

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Oh dear. What have I started??

 

As we are on the subject the use of two question marks seems a tad superfluous .