Will P*mpey last till the derby?

[a1ex2001]

Thank god for what happened to us. And for those that worry how we'd fare if Markus dropped dead tomorrow. Even if there were no trust fund, we'd not be in all that bad a state. Remember that we now have no mortgage or bank loans to pay off, so our income must be at least close to covering our regular outgoings. Herr Liebherr has invested £15 -20 million as a lump sum in effect. I doubt he is having to subsidise wages and other regular costs much. He just isn't getting any return on his investment ...yet.

 

K.

 

Can I have some of what your taking? Do you seriously believe that are attendences are supplying enough money to pay the biggest squad in League 1 history that is littered with players who could be playing at a higher level but moved here for the money? Marcus will be subsidising the team quite significantly and were he to withdraw his financial backing tomorrow a firesale would be the order of the day, lets not delude ourselves!

[saintjay77]

Can I have some of what your taking? Do you seriously believe that are attendences are supplying enough money to pay the biggest squad in League 1 history that is littered with players who could be playing at a higher level but moved here for the money? Marcus will be subsidising the team quite significantly and were he to withdraw his financial backing tomorrow a firesale would be the order of the day, lets not delude ourselves!

 

Going on what I have so far seen of ML and NC I doubt very much that we are paying over the odds on players wages. Yes the squad is big but its half full of the low paid youth setup that we were left with before ML turned up. The other half are from the top players in this league mixed with good CCC players that are probably on league 1 pay and contracts that suit them better the higher up the leagues we go.

 

I think ML will be subsidising us a little but I would be suprised if we are spunking money all over the place on the basis that we might get back to the prem one day and become a profitable business.

[Junior Mullet]

Can I have some of what your taking? Do you seriously believe that are attendences are supplying enough money to pay the biggest squad in League 1 history that is littered with players who could be playing at a higher level but moved here for the money? Marcus will be subsidising the team quite significantly and were he to withdraw his financial backing tomorrow a firesale would be the order of the day, lets not delude ourselves!

 

Given the income (ticket sales, merchandise, television money, food & drink etc) from our cup runs on top of average attendances around the 20k mark I reckon he is not having to subsidise very much. Bear in mind that most cup matches have been played at SMS.

 

I also think the club have bought cautiously and have turned down players who have asked for wages seriously over the odds. Cortesse doesn't seem like a man who will be held over a barrel by players or their agents. Pure speculation but could this be why we got Seabourn and not Ward or Puncheon instead of Stock or Danns? Lambert is our talisman and is only looking for a house worth £400k in the Romsey area - doesn't seem to indicate Markus spunking it all up the wall.

[sidthesquid]

Given the income (ticket sales, merchandise, television money, food & drink etc) from our cup runs on top of average attendances around the 20k mark I reckon he is not having to subsidise very much. Bear in mind that most cup matches have been played at SMS.

 

I also think the club have bought cautiously and have turned down players who have asked for wages seriously over the odds. Cortesse doesn't seem like a man who will be held over a barrel by players or their agents. Pure speculation but could this be why we got Seabourn and not Ward or Puncheon instead of Stock or Danns? Lambert is our talisman and is only looking for a house worth £400k in the Romsey area - doesn't seem to indicate Markus spunking it all up the wall.

 

I agree - we will have had 9 bonus home matches in the various cups, 3 extra tv dates and that lot will pay most of the transfer fees. Also even if we were doubling the wages of guys like Hammond & Lambert, I bet those wages are still modest by CCC terms, and given our attendances/merchandising prospects we could surely pay double the wages that their former clubs could afford.(Plus I bet the two of them earn less than Saga did on his own.)

From what we know of ML's m.o. he does not borrow and builds business incrementally, which is what is going on with us now, except we have had a bit of catching up to do as we cleared out the yesterday men and brought the ones Pardew wants in.

[Foxy]

Sky reporting that they've now missed a deadlike to pay £9million to Gaydamak. Ooops.

[St.Patrik]

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11674_5912788,00.html

[suewhistle]

Cortesse doesn't seem like a man who will be held over a barrel by players or their agents. Pure speculation but could this be why we got Seabourn and not Ward or Puncheon instead of Stock or Danns?

 

Must admit this occurred to me as well. They're probably all on a decent bonus if we get promoted though..

[Bucks Saint]

Must admit this occurred to me as well. They're probably all on a decent bonus if we get promoted though..

 

Fair enough and good business

[pele]

Obviously not!!! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Portsmouth-City-Football-Club-Ltd_W0QQitemZ190369798802QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item2c52ec9a92

[sotonjoe]

No but they use the school facilities

 

Not with regards the preparation or purchase of food they don't.

[brianoneils slidingtackle]

how long is this going to go on for, why dont they just admit defeat and close the poxy club down.. never liked the b*stards anyway...

[a1ex2001]

I agree - we will have had 9 bonus home matches in the various cups, 3 extra tv dates and that lot will pay most of the transfer fees. Also even if we were doubling the wages of guys like Hammond & Lambert, I bet those wages are still modest by CCC terms, and given our attendances/merchandising prospects we could surely pay double the wages that their former clubs could afford.(Plus I bet the two of them earn less than Saga did on his own.)

From what we know of ML's m.o. he does not borrow and builds business incrementally, which is what is going on with us now, except we have had a bit of catching up to do as we cleared out the yesterday men and brought the ones Pardew wants in.

 

The fans of all the clubs with sugar daddies have always lived in denial, the true state of affairs never reveals itself until they pull the plug.

[Ken Tone]

Can I have some of what your taking? Do you seriously believe that are attendences are supplying enough money to pay the biggest squad in League 1 history that is littered with players who could be playing at a higher level but moved here for the money? Marcus will be subsidising the team quite significantly and were he to withdraw his financial backing tomorrow a firesale would be the order of the day, lets not delude ourselves!

 

Not sure the cup of decaffeinated tea I just had will help you! ;-)

 

But I stand by what I said. Someone (can't remember source) said we were going to pay one of the recent new players £6k a week, and this was substantially more than he was on at his old club. Squad of 40 in round numbers on average of say £4k? = £160K aweek. Income from home gates alone , say 20,000 crowd at average of £20 each allowing for kids and some expenses = £ 400,000 a game.

 

£160k a week = approx £8.3 million a year.

£400k a game for 23 games = £ 9.2 million, and that's ignoring cup games and any TV income, not to mention sponsorship.

 

Now I know I've ignored lots of expenses and may have underestimated average wage etc --this is only a crude illustration -- but nonetheless, I don't think it is unreasonable to say that Saints are probably paying their way, or are close to doing so, on a day to day basis. Herr Liebherr is probably getting no return on his initial investment but I doubt he is having to subsidise much more at present, with the crowds we are getting.

 

K.

Edited 2 February, 2010 by Ken Tone

[EFM]

I haven't got the brain to work it all out Ken Tone but that seems accuarate within a few quid here or there. It certainly doesn't come anywhere near the shxt the small club find themselves in.

 

I have til fairly recently wanted the worst for an existing PFC to remain in some dire division way below us. I'm starting to feel, with each daily hilarity and farce at their little club, that to see them cease to exist altogether would be a party day.

 

Still can't decide whether it is better for them to be wound up days before the cup game and we get a bye or whether defeat at Southampton should be their final experiene. Either would be a f'ing hoot to celebrate.

[Whitey Grandad]

I'm not party to the exact figures but when we were discussing this in the summer it was said that the stadium more than paid for itself, even with the repayments, so now it must be generating money.

[woodsaint]

Nice calculations there, though i think its prob better cuz thers no way our squad of 40 is on 4k a week average, good load of them are academy players prob on about 500 quid a week if even lol

[Goalie66]

This is why the game will not happen.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2010/feb/03/portsmouth-mark-jacob-premier-league

[beancounter saint]

Not sure the cup of decaffeinated tea I just had will help you! ;-)

 

But I stand by what I said. Someone (can't remember source) said we were going to pay one of the recent new players £6k a week, and this was substantially more than he was on at his old club. Squad of 40 in round numbers on average of say £4k? = £160K aweek. Income from home gates alone , say 20,000 crowd at average of £20 each allowing for kids and some expenses = £ 400,000 a game.

 

£160k a week = approx £8.3 million a year.

£400k a game for 23 games = £ 9.2 million, and that's ignoring cup games and any TV income, not to mention sponsorship.

 

Now I know I've ignored lots of expenses and may have underestimated average wage etc --this is only a crude illustration -- but nonetheless, I don't think it is unreasonable to say that Saints are probably paying their way, or are close to doing so, on a day to day basis. Herr Liebherr is probably getting no return on his initial investment but I doubt he is having to subsidise much more at present, with the crowds we are getting.

 

K.

 

I'm going to sound like a right geek here, and I know the figures you have used are very rough, but just the Employers NI (12.8%) on the stated wages would take them above the income figure. There are an awful lot of overheads involved in any business that people don't always consider. Guess what I do for a living!!

[Kingsland Red]

This is why the game will not happen.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2010/feb/03/portsmouth-mark-jacob-premier-league

 

The comments by 'Lost Transportation' beneath the article are of more interest as he is obviously not restricted in commenting. (The journalist being open to legal challenge )

[Foxstone]

The comments by 'Lost Transportation' beneath the article are of more interest as he is obviously not restricted in commenting. (The journalist being open to legal challenge )

 

A very insightful read from that particular poster!

 

I wonder how close to the mark he is !

[Ken Tone]

The bit of the article I don't get is

 

>>The Hong Kong businessman Balram Chainrai, who has links with the Israeli businessmen connected to Faraj, has loaned what the club said amounted to £20m and has two mortgages over the club. One, registered on 6 October, gives Chainrai's company Portpin, which is registered in the British Virgin Islands tax haven, security over Fratton Park. The other, registered on 7 January, secures for Portpin "the whole of [Portmouth's] undertaking and all its property and assets".

 

That means that if the club does fall into administration or liquidation, Chainrai will be able to take possession of the club itself, and Fratton Park, possibly leaving HMRC and the club's mounting list of other creditors unpaid.

 

Why should Chainrai not just be another creditor, in the queue with HMRC ,Gaydamak et al?

 

The tragedy of this and it is becoming a tragedy, is that no one who has the power to put the club into administration will do so ,because it would mean the end of their gravy train. Storre reportedly eanred over £2 million from the lcub last year. The minute an administrator takes over he will be sacked. Why would he put the cub into admin? Ditto the owners. Admin would mean losing their ownership in effect.

 

So we end up with a club sliding inexorably into oblivion, with no one having both a motive and the power to stop it.

 

I , even as a rabid Saints fan, don't want this. I'd rather see them painfully broke spending years gradually declining into L2!

 

K.

[Whitey Grandad]

I'm going to sound like a right geek here, and I know the figures you have used are very rough, but just the Employers NI (12.8%) on the stated wages would take them above the income figure. There are an awful lot of overheads involved in any business that people don't always consider. Guess what I do for a living!!

Count beans? There's also the VAT on the ticket that often gets forgotten.

[Ken Tone]

I'm going to sound like a right geek here, and I know the figures you have used are very rough, but just the Employers NI (12.8%) on the stated wages would take them above the income figure. There are an awful lot of overheads involved in any business that people don't always consider. Guess what I do for a living!!

 

And I've ignored any other on-costs such as any work-based pension scheme too. Not to mention premises costs and the far less expensive wages for non-playing staff. I know -- I can count beans as well! But then I also missed out home cup games, sales of replica shirts, sponsorship, etc from the income side.

 

It was only meant as a very rough indication, that overall we are probably pretty much paying our way with 20 k crowds and (even generous) L1 wages.

 

Herr Liebherr has in effect put £20 mill (again, only roughly) into the club, is getting no return, but is probably spending not much more on a regular basis, and if all goes well the club will eventually be worth rather more than £20 mill. What is an established mid -table premiership club, with own stadium and no major debt, worth?

 

So if he ever intends to sell, he might lose most of his money if we fail, get a profit if we succeed, or maybe just recoup his investment if we succeed only modestly, say by becoming fixed in mid-table CCC. A sort of £20 million each way bet really!

 

No crtitcism of Herr Liebherr intended in all that btw. Really glad he's here.

 

K.

[beancounter saint]

It was only meant as a very rough indication, that overall we are probably pretty much paying our way with 20 k crowds and (even generous) L1 wages.

 

 

I hope you are right - I guess we will only know for sure when we get to see some accounts!

[Matthew Le God]

Kanu has not returned from Africa. Maybe he has realised they can't really fine him a weeks wages.

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/Kanu-yet-to-return-from.6037280.jp

[Wes Tender]

The bit of the article I don't get is

 

>>The Hong Kong businessman Balram Chainrai, who has links with the Israeli businessmen connected to Faraj, has loaned what the club said amounted to £20m and has two mortgages over the club. One, registered on 6 October, gives Chainrai's company Portpin, which is registered in the British Virgin Islands tax haven, security over Fratton Park. The other, registered on 7 January, secures for Portpin "the whole of [Portmouth's] undertaking and all its property and assets".

 

That means that if the club does fall into administration or liquidation, Chainrai will be able to take possession of the club itself, and Fratton Park, possibly leaving HMRC and the club's mounting list of other creditors unpaid.

 

Why should Chainrai not just be another creditor, in the queue with HMRC ,Gaydamak et al?

 

The tragedy of this and it is becoming a tragedy, is that no one who has the power to put the club into administration will do so ,because it would mean the end of their gravy train. Storre reportedly eanred over £2 million from the lcub last year. The minute an administrator takes over he will be sacked. Why would he put the cub into admin? Ditto the owners. Admin would mean losing their ownership in effect.

 

So we end up with a club sliding inexorably into oblivion, with no one having both a motive and the power to stop it.

 

I , even as a rabid Saints fan, don't want this. I'd rather see them painfully broke spending years gradually declining into L2!

 

K.

 

I wondered the same thing, why Chainrai would be able to somehow hive off assets of the club and not forfeit them in the event of administration or liquidation.

 

Also, Clapham Saint, who seems to know what he is talking about, said that the club's directors were not legally permitted to place the club in administration whilst it was subject to a winding up order.

[eelpie]

PFC will soon be history. The millionaire players, managers, their gluttonous agents, the money launderers and other crooks have had their fill and bled the club dry. They are simply scavenging over what is left of the spoils. The club will be wound up and will not be able to exist even in the lower leagues without their own ground, players nor banking facilities. It will become an AFC sharing pitches with the venerable likes of Havant and Waterlooville, who will probably take over their name.

 

This does fill me with some sadness. No more local derbies when we will eventually be promoted. Some of us oldies remember the fifties when we were kids and it was the local rival with decent players like Jimmy Dickenson, Alex Young and Derek Dougan, and they were enviably the only Hampshire club to have ever won the FA cup, and the top Division title twice (which we have never done). I feel for some of their fans, including some who have posted on here.

 

So the unwholesome sight of their rotten demise caused by their own avarice and consequent exploitation is a tragedy for all of football. Much as I hated or own 'He who's name must not be mentioned' for his smugness and despotic rule of SFC, in hindsight his presence seems to have kept the likes of Mandarics, Gaydamaks and fake sheiks at bay. And the odious vultures discussed in GM's thread never got ther hands on us, thanks to Marcus.

 

Skates will not be wound up immediately on the 10th and we WILL be playing them.

Their cup match with us will be their players last desperate chance of glory, so don't expect us to roll them over.

 

History is written. Let's have the last word and beat the buggers!

[positivepete]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/02/alexandre-gaydamak-portsmouth-administration

 

Gaydamak to the rescue! I wonder how is money is secured?

[Junior Mullet]

"Portsmouth have sold Begovic, to Stoke, and Younes Kaboul, to Tottenham for £5m, as part of the battle to stabilise their finances. Club sources confirmed that the deals were negotiated by Daniel Azougy, an Israeli former lawyer and convicted fraudster who is working on the finances at Fratton Park."

 

I just love reading this. It's Pompey through and through.

[hutch]

I think "disbarred" would be more accurate than "former", but otherwise agree.

[Bucks Saint]

I wondered the same thing, why Chainrai would be able to somehow hive off assets of the club and not forfeit them in the event of administration or liquidation.

 

Also, Clapham Saint, who seems to know what he is talking about, said that the club's directors were not legally permitted to place the club in administration whilst it was subject to a winding up order.

 

If Chainrai introduced "new money" i.e. they increased the assets of the club then they can take security for that same money, over assets that are available and not charged to anyone else (if they are, then Chainrai stands behind them in the queue). An Administrator / Liquidator will check the validity of this security and that new money was actually received and can rule it to be invalid if needed

 

Once a Winding Up Order has been made, e.g. on 10 Feb, there is no chance to apply for Administration by anyone, directors or otherwise (unless in the very unlikely event that it can be shown that the Winding Up Order was a total mistake and should not have been made - this virtually never happens)

 

Once a Petition for Winding Up has been presented (i.e. now), then Creditors can apply for Administration. Directors can ask the Court to consider Administration as well but the Court would need considerable convincing and can refuse.

 

Normally the Directors can apply "out of court" - i.e. very simply and without Court consent - for Administration but not once a Winding Up petition is presented

[ringwood]

Isn't Chainrai in effect the mortgage holder on Fratton Park and therefore a secured loan?

 

St Marys defaulted to Norwich Union not to the hands of the administrator didn't it?

 

Just disappointed to log in and find they are still going !!!!!!!!

[JRM]

I think a few on here are a bit premature going on about "what a tragedy" etc, they are still signing players, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8495353.stm and Gaydamak is not going to call his debt in.

 

Wouldn't mind betting they'll get something at Fulham tonight.

[SNSUN]

As long as the game goes ahead (just got my tickets), I don't care what happens to them afterwards...

[saintmonkey1979]

I think a few on here are a bit premature going on about "what a tragedy" etc, they are still signing players, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8495353.stm and Gaydamak is not going to call his debt in.

 

Wouldn't mind betting they'll get something at Fulham tonight.

 

I cant for the life of me understand why anyone would sign for a club who cant pay their existing wage bill, never mind the added cost of additional signings. It really does beggar belief. Unless there is guaranteed new investment, which seems highly improbable at the moment, this seems like a case of throwing more money into the abyss.

[landford.saint]

If as the article states this Chanrai has security over PFC and all its assets, this must mean that in effect PFC have 'mortgaged' the whole club, lock, stock, and fish smell to Chanrai. But surely Gaydamak must have some security in the club, or does he just have a note promising to pay him £30 million. If they go into administration HMRC will still have first dabs on picking over the corpse. If the winding up goes ahead HMRC will again be the first to get their cut of whats left.

To you legal people out their.... I am guessing PFC would be better in admin. than winding up because they could continue to 'trade' in some form or other whilst seeking a sugar daddy or agreement with their creditors. But how likely are they to get administration now they are so close to Winding up court day. Would a court take a decision that they are so far in the do-do that administration would just delay the inevitable and just go for winding up....

If winding up goes ahead.. How does it happen? Do they just have what is effect a big closing down sale?

[SNSUN]

I cant for the life of me understand why anyone would sign for a club who cant pay their existing wage bill, never mind the added cost of additional signings. It really does beggar belief. Unless there is guaranteed new investment, which seems highly improbable at the moment, this seems like a case of throwing more money into the abyss.

 

It sounds to me like they stil hold hope of staying up, the "Rupert Lowe mentality" we had last year when holding off on administration until too late.

 

By signing players, Portsmouth are literally increasing their own debt, but IMO they believe they can stay up which, of course, makes a huge difference in income rather than getting relegated.

 

Of course you can see it, I can see it, the world can see it, everybody can see it except PFC that they're doomed.

 

I don't want them to go bust, no supporter no matter how inbred or moronic they may be, deserves to see one of their passions in life cease to exist. (Damn you Windsor Snooker Club, damn you to hell.)

[sidthesquid]

If as the article states this Chanrai has security over PFC and all its assets, this must mean that in effect PFC have 'mortgaged' the whole club, lock, stock, and fish smell to Chanrai. But surely Gaydamak must have some security in the club, or does he just have a note promising to pay him £30 million. If they go into administration HMRC will still have first dabs on picking over the corpse. If the winding up goes ahead HMRC will again be the first to get their cut of whats left.

To you legal people out their.... I am guessing PFC would be better in admin. than winding up because they could continue to 'trade' in some form or other whilst seeking a sugar daddy or agreement with their creditors. But how likely are they to get administration now they are so close to Winding up court day. Would a court take a decision that they are so far in the do-do that administration would just delay the inevitable and just go for winding up....

If winding up goes ahead.. How does it happen? Do they just have what is effect a big closing down sale?

 

This is where nothing adds up. How can Gaydamak claim he is owed £28million and be relaxed about pushing for the £9mill due now whilst somebody completely unconnected in any way (yeah right!) has a legal hold over every asset of the club. The fishy odour emanating from this is so strong it makes me want to retch

[Gemmel]

The fishy odour emanating from this is so strong it makes me want to retch

 

 

And that's from a squid as well :smt036

[ringwood]

If they go into administration HMRC will still have first dabs on picking over the corpse. If the winding up goes ahead HMRC will again be the first to get their cut of whats left.

 

 

nope been said quite a few times now on here, HMRC no longer have any preferred status , they join the queue like everyone else, thats why they go for WUO now, and they are unlikely to accept a cva either so thats the Golden Share gone as well.

 

If Chainrai has mortgage on all PCFC assets and therefore a secured loan but no golden share what happens to the clubs players? There maybe no corpse to pick over!!

 

But if the movement of the PCFC assets to Chainrai after the service date of the WUO is illegal then with PCFC assets not able to match the debt it has to move to WU,

 

Did anyone complain to the Insolvency Service mentioned on here yesterday?

 

http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/

Edited 3 February, 2010 by ringwood
add link

[CanadaSaint]

It sounds to me like they stil hold hope of staying up, the "Rupert Lowe mentality" we had last year when holding off on administration until too late.

 

By signing players, Portsmouth are literally increasing their own debt, but IMO they believe they can stay up which, of course, makes a huge difference in income rather than getting relegated.

 

Of course you can see it, I can see it, the world can see it, everybody can see it except PFC that they're doomed.

 

I don't want them to go bust, no supporter no matter how inbred or moronic they may be, deserves to see one of their passions in life cease to exist. (Damn you Windsor Snooker Club, damn you to hell.)

 

It seems like a sh*t or bust strategy - literally, but the odds are moving more towards "bust" every day.

 

And one thing I'm wondering is this. The football authorities (even, perhaps, including the Premier League) must know that football is unsustainable in its present form. Do you think they might be willing to let P*mpey crash, because they're not one of the big clubs, in the hopes that this would cause everyone to wake up to the realities? I say this because they're certainly not lining up to help P*mpey and may well be subtly pushing them over the edge.

[landford.saint]

nope been said quite a few times now on here, HMRC no longer have any preferred status , they join the queue like everyone else, thats why they go for WUO now, and they are unlikely to accept a cva either so thats the Golden Share gone as well.

 

If Chainrai has mortgage on all PCFC assets and therefore a secured loan but no golden share what happens to the clubs players? There maybe no corpse to pick over!!

 

But if the movement of the PCFC assets to Chainrai after the service date of the WUO is illegal then with PCFC assets not able to match the debt it has to move to WU,

 

Did anyone complain to the Insolvency Service mentioned on here yesterday?

 

http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/

 

thanks for the above reply Ringwood ....

Sorry if I seem thick...(my teachers came to that conclusion 40 odd years ago as well) but are saying that HMRC have no special status, so they want to shoot the sick horse now, instead of waiting for it to stagger on a bit more before it is shot by someone else later....

If a WU does occur, could someone step in and buy it at a knockdown price ( abit like us and start again) or is it more likely the assetts (ground etc.) will be sold to highest bidder for housing development or whatever...?

[ringwood]

HMRC shoot it to avoid it continuing to increase its debt, its better from HMRC point of view for the employees etc to be employed elsewhere and their tax to be paid rather than as it is currently.

 

WU means as far as I can see there is no admin period , its straight to the knackers yard for the bullet in the head, the companies identity is killed to prevent it arising as a Phoenix with potentially the same problems, thats why those who care about the way they do business and maybe want to see the company have a chance to survive take the admin option.

[CanadaSaint]

WU means as far as I can see there is no admin period , its straight to the knackers yard for the bullet in the head, the companies identity is killed to prevent it arising as a Phoenix with potentially the same problems, thats why those who care about the way they do business and maybe want to see the company have a chance to survive take the admin option.

 

It's because we're seeing no such people around that I posed the question I asked in post #396.

 

What are your thoughts on that?

[brmbrm]

The comments by 'Lost Transportation' beneath the article are of more interest as he is obviously not restricted in commenting. (The journalist being open to legal challenge )

 

So interesting they've been removed (By Grauniad legal staff I guess). What was he saying?

[hutch]

Not in any way suggesting that it's conected, but nevertheless you might find post #10486 in the "Pompey Takeover Saga" thread interesting as background reading.

[benjii]

If as the article states this Chanrai has security over PFC and all its assets, this must mean that in effect PFC have 'mortgaged' the whole club, lock, stock, and fish smell to Chanrai. But surely Gaydamak must have some security in the club, or does he just have a note promising to pay him £30 million. If they go into administration HMRC will still have first dabs on picking over the corpse. If the winding up goes ahead HMRC will again be the first to get their cut of whats left.

To you legal people out their.... I am guessing PFC would be better in admin. than winding up because they could continue to 'trade' in some form or other whilst seeking a sugar daddy or agreement with their creditors. But how likely are they to get administration now they are so close to Winding up court day. Would a court take a decision that they are so far in the do-do that administration would just delay the inevitable and just go for winding up....

If winding up goes ahead.. How does it happen? Do they just have what is effect a big closing down sale?

 

 

This is not true. HMRC have no greater rights than the person who supplies the half-time oranges.

 

Administration will only happen if a secured creditor with the right to appoint an administrator does so. If they were going to, they would probably have done it during the transfer window, you would've thought.

 

If they are liquidated then, yes, essentially everything is for sale and that's that.

 

It's really hard to predict anything though because when you're predicting you have to start with assumptions. Things like: 1) the directors are acting rationally; 2) the directors are acting or want to act in accordance with the law; 3) the people purporting to own the company do own the company; 4) the company isn't owned by an exiled criminal... etc.

[Windmill Arm 2]

1-0 Fulham LOL!!!

[benjii]

Get in!

[Kingsland Red]

So interesting they've been removed (By Grauniad legal staff I guess). What was he saying?

 

Lost Transportation quote removed from Grauniad article:

 

 

I disagree with the description of "haemorrhaging spending" that David Conn uses to describe the finances of Portsmouth Football Club.

This requires context. In August 2009, PFC paid the outstanding monies owed to Standard Bank which was in the region of £30m using transfer income, sky money and season ticket income. This had the effect of hollowing out the finances of the club and meant that the business had a cashflow problem. Any purchaser of the club would (or should) have been aware of that from any due diligence on the club. There were income streams but the timing of these were not conducive to running a business smoothly. Anybody aware of running a business knows that cashflow problems can easily kill a business.

So when Al Fahim took control of PFC, there was around £50m of debt. Half of which was owed to Sacha Gaydamak (£28m) which was agreed to be paid in two instalments: January 2010 then the rest in 2012. The club had an overdraft facility with Barclays at £10m which was guaranteed by Gaydamak with agreed payment schedules. HMRC were owed around £10m, mostly generated by the transfer sales which had kept the club above water. In August 2009, HMRC would have agreed to a payment schedule which could be timed with the income streams of PFC.

Then you have the running costs associated with a premier league club. The playing staff wage bill had been considerably reduced by departures and although there were still a few players earning exceptional wages, the squad salary total was more in line with the lower half of the Premier League and the quality considerably reduced.

So although the playing side of the squad was compromised by the delay in the takeover, the financial side wasn't as desperate as journalists made it out to be. It required some investment and liquidity to survive as a club. However that never occurred.

The six/seven weeks under the control of Al Fahim can only be described as bizarre. Despite the obvious problem of cashflow, Al Fahim never addressed it. He went round the world looking for £50m when I believe that £10m would have allowed the club breathing room up to the January window. So the cashflow problem resulted in September's wages not being paid. This allowed Falcondrone to get a foothold in PFC through a £5m loan and with the help of Peter Storrie stirring up the supporters, Al Fahim was forced to sell 90% of the club in October.

What has happened since beggars belief.

One of the more interesting pieces of information that has come out is that between the takeover in October and today, the club has received in excess of £50m of income. Mark Jacob confirmed that prior to the January Sky monies and sales of Kaboul and Begovic, the club has received £40m of income. Half of which is the Chainrai loans - charged against the club as David Conn wrote, the rest have come though gate receipts, transfer fees payments etc.

So where has the money been going? Not to outgoing transfer fees as the Premier League have had to freeze money in order to pay these. Some £4m has been paid to HMRC according to Jacob. Some £7.5m went to Barclays (more on this below). Wages have been paid eventually (approx £8m I think). However other running costs haven't been paid on time and creditors have only received money through legal action or camping themselves out in the reception room at Fratton Park.

The Barclays Bank case is particularly curious. As I said above, the bank had a guarantee from Sacha Gaydamak using assets worth £2.5m as collateral. One of the first actions of Falcondrone ownership was to default the schedule of payments on the overdraft. The assets used by Gaydamak were seized by the bank and the account facilities frozen. Falcondrone paid the remaining £7.5m but PFC do not have an overdraft facility. The winding up order from HMRC have placed further restrictions on the bank account which creates further cashflow problems.

The club have been cutting costs - for example the academy have seen its satellite facilities removed, staff sacked, bills have not been paid. The youth team coaches were repossessed last month. The training ground kitchen facilities have also been repossessed due to non-payment. The finance director resigned her directorship and become an employee. She was complaining last week of not being given money to pay day-to-day bills in her new role as finance manager.

In short, the club is being driven into the ground and is operating as a zombie club while Daniel Azougy, the three times convicted fraudster, operates as the de facto owner of PFC.

And then there is the maths. If the club has received £50m in the 13 weeks since the takeover, why is it in the crises it is where day-to-day payments can't be made? Something stinks rotten at the heart of PFC. David Conn, your article merely touches the surface.