Tax on booze. Min price per unit.

[View From The Top]

5Live had a debate about super strength beers and lagers the other day and one proposal, from CAMRA was that all the ****ty super strength beers and ciders, much beloved by sweaties, should be heavily taxed and real beer, up to 4.5% - 5% should have their duty cut.

 

In addition, booze sold for home consumption should be more heavily taxed and booze sold in pubs should be less heavily taxed, thus encouraging people back into pubs.

 

What say you all?

[saints_is_the_south]

Agree with all of the above. Don't get me wrong I love getting cheap beer from the supermarkets as much as the next person but I don't like seeing pub after pub closing down. I was up my local last Friday night & there was no more than half a dozen people in there, not long ago it used to be heaving at weekends, not any more though. The pub is a great British tradition & the government needs to act fast to stop it dying imo.

[Ponty]

Well, erm.. No, basically. It's supposed to be a free market and manufacturers/retailers should be free to sell at whatever price they choose. We should not be nannying potential alcoholics/troublemakers by pricing them off of the "sh**ty" lagers. Who's to say what constitutes a sh**ty lager/cider anyway? CAMRA? My God, some of the filth they call beer tastes like car shampoo.

 

As for getting people back into pubs, repeal the smoking ban. Make it voluntary for a pub to be non-smoking, or have proper non-smoking areas. Put the power back into the hands of the publican instead of eroding it with fashionable bans and then falsely manipulating the number of customers by taxing them out of drinking at home.

[bridge too far]

I agree with you Ponty - although I don't drink beer (only the occasional lager when I'm in a hot country / skiing).

 

But I do think supermarkets should not be able to sell lager / beer at below cost - as a loss leader. Very irresponsible IMO.

 

Totally agree with you about lifting the smoking ban. I'm trying to remember which European country's people totally ignored the smoking ban in bars but for the life of me I can't. We need a unified approach

[Thedelldays]

there will be absolutely no chance of the smoking ban being lifted in any way in the country IMO

[saint-luco]

Well, erm.. No, basically. It's supposed to be a free market and manufacturers/retailers should be free to sell at whatever price they choose. We should not be nannying potential alcoholics/troublemakers by pricing them off of the "sh**ty" lagers.

 

As for getting people back into pubs, repeal the smoking ban. Make it voluntary for a pub to be non-smoking, or have proper non-smoking areas. Put the power back into the hands of the publican instead of eroding it with fashionable bans and then falsely manipulating the number of customers by taxing them out of drinking at home.

 

and then drop the price of real ale

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Personally I just think they should take the cheap crap like White Lightning/WKD etc off of the market full stop, that isn't drinking, plus I'm sure many politicians would believe it would succeed as the young'uns wouldn't be drawn to their 'bright colours' - yeah, that's what draws them in!

 

It would be nice if more pubs stayed open, but looking at some of the pubs around here, it's no suprise. If they want to draw new business they are going to have to modernise, not doing so could well mean the end. I'm not saying that a town's Red Lion should become the "Le Rouge Lion" gastro 'pub' but keeping many in their 1970s style just isn't working.

 

It all stinks of hypocrisy anyway: I'm sure people in the 50s,60s,70s,80s,90s weren't getting smashed off their face, or mullered on Ecstacy and Cocaine, or fighting a rival gang because they were different.

 

Ponty, just out of interest, why would repealing the smoking ban help people back into pubs? Surely if they were TRUE regulars, they wouldn't care and would brave the cold to puff on their death sticks or are you referring to the 'passing trade'?

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

and then drop the price of real ale

 

Not everyone drinks real ale you know, some of us are normal and like our nasty Kronenbourg

[Ponty]

Personally I just think they should take the cheap crap like White Lightning/WKD etc off of the market full stop, that isn't drinking, plus I'm sure many politicians would believe it would succeed as the young'uns wouldn't be drawn to their 'bright colours' - yeah, that's what draws them in!

 

It would be nice if more pubs stayed open, but looking at some of the pubs around here, it's no suprise. If they want to draw new business they are going to have to modernise, not doing so could well mean the end. I'm not saying that a town's Red Lion should become the "Le Rouge Lion" gastro 'pub' but keeping many in their 1970s style just isn't working.

 

It all stinks of hypocrisy anyway: I'm sure people in the 50s,60s,70s,80s,90s weren't getting smashed off their face, or mullered on Ecstacy and Cocaine, or fighting a rival gang because they were different.

 

Ponty, just out of interest, why would repealing the smoking ban help people back into pubs? Surely if they were TRUE regulars, they wouldn't care and would brave the cold to puff on their death sticks or are you referring to the 'passing trade'?

 

It's just easier not to bother going any more, tbh. I live in a small village that has 3 trading establishments; two pubs and a newsagents. That's it. Yet on any given afternoon you'll find more people in the shop than in either pub. The shop shuts at 6pm (how 1970s) so I can't give estimates for the evenings.

[View From The Top]

there will be absolutely no chance of the smoking ban being lifted in any way in the country IMO

 

Or any other country that has introduced it.

 

It's a great law as smokers are selfish scum.

 

I'm an ex-smoker. :smt083

[View From The Top]

Well, erm.. No, basically. It's supposed to be a free market and manufacturers/retailers should be free to sell at whatever price they choose. We should not be nannying potential alcoholics/troublemakers by pricing them off of the "sh**ty" lagers. Who's to say what constitutes a sh**ty lager/cider anyway? CAMRA? My God, some of the filth they call beer tastes like car shampoo.

 

Now read again what I said. The debate was about super strength lagers and ciders that don't get sold in pubs are usually have a % of at least 7. Not ordinary lagers, even though they are cr@p and only drunk by women and poofs.*

 

Tennants Super is a decent example of one.

 

 

 

*cold bottles of Becks during the summer are excluded.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

A local(ish)Pub that shares the name of our club has recently been taken over, its always busy, New years eve c600 people, new years day heaving, boxing day the opening day and very many Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays serving up to 50 roast dinners, this in the heart of Millbrook which will be every bit affected by the current climate and social problems but those that run it, run it with very strict rules, also think it is about what the pub is doing to attract and keep its punters, they are fortunate to have the freehold so beers are cheap(ish) but there is always 'entertainment' and it is a good place to be, they didn't come in and try to create a wine bar simply a traditional pub where locals, of varying generations, can come and enjoy themselves(within reason)

 

I do alot of my drinking at home so believe it unfair that I would be penalised IF I should so happen to like one of those '****ty lagers' or spirits because others can't handle their drink, whether that be at home or in public

[benjii]

Ban all alcohol.

 

It should be illegal; it's far more destructuve than smack, cake or clarky cap.

 

Either that or make all drugs legal.

[CB Saint]

I am not sure that increasing taxes will ever be the solution to binge drinking. In Iceland booze in bars is brutally expensive and the off licenses are state controlled and really expensive, however, I have never seen so many paralytically drunk people in one place on a Friday or Saturday night. They get absolutely bladdered dispite the cost.

.

[CB Saint]

Now read again what I said. The debate was about super strength lagers and ciders that don't get sold in pubs are usually have a % of at least 7. Not ordinary lagers, even though they are cr@p and only drunk by women and poofs.*

 

Tennants Super is a decent example of one.

 

 

 

*cold bottles of Becks during the summer are excluded.

 

Does anyone on here actually drink this stuff?

[Joensuu]

Isn't there a direct relationship between the minimum price of each unit of alcohol, and the resultant levels of liver disease. Surely anyone interested in reducing NHS costs would consider setting a minimum unit price to be a good thing.

 

However, any money raised by such an initiative should be used to help fund the NHS (or service government debt), but certainly not used to subsidise CAMRA.

[Andy_Porter]

Isn't there a direct relationship between the minimum price of each unit of alcohol, and the resultant levels of liver disease. Surely anyone interested in reducing NHS costs would consider setting a minimum unit price to be a good thing.

 

 

There was something on talksport recently about how the tories where planning on introducing a scheme where if you had to go to Hospital because you drank too much during a night out you would have to pay £550 per day for the treatment. Would probably be a good idea.

[pedg]

There was something on talksport recently about how the tories where planning on introducing a scheme where if you had to go to Hospital because you drank too much during a night out you would have to pay £550 per day for the treatment. Would probably be a good idea.

 

Another sounds good on paper but not so good once you start thinking about it policy IMO. For example who decides how drunk have to be etc to pay? Also the first steps towards the sort of health economy they have in the states where they check if you can pay before doing more than stabilise your condition. Can you imagine what the furore will be like the first time someone dies from their injuries because they could not afford to pay this surcharge for treatment?

[dubai_phil]

I am not sure that increasing taxes will ever be the solution to binge drinking. In Iceland booze in bars is brutally expensive and the off licenses are state controlled and really expensive, however, I have never seen so many paralytically drunk people in one place on a Friday or Saturday night. They get absolutely bladdered dispite the cost.

.

 

 

Well, if YOU had to live in Iceland all year round wouldn't YOU be bladdered all the time.

 

There's only so many trips to Blue Lagoon, Whale Watching you can do before you realise there's nothing left there after their bank nutters raped the place of all their savings

[bridge too far]

There was something on talksport recently about how the tories where planning on introducing a scheme where if you had to go to Hospital because you drank too much during a night out you would have to pay £550 per day for the treatment. Would probably be a good idea.

 

Sounds good in theory and already I think you have to pay a charge for treatment received as a result of a car accident (which you claim back on your motor insurance).

 

But you could apply this principle to a number of cases. For example, if you break your leg because YOU choose to go skiing, should you pay some of the costs of treatment?

 

Sort of negates the principles of the NHS IMO.

[dubai_phil]

Sounds good in theory and already I think you have to pay a charge for treatment received as a result of a car accident (which you claim back on your motor insurance).

 

But you could apply this principle to a number of cases. For example, if you break your leg because YOU choose to go skiing, should you pay some of the costs of treatment?

 

Sort of negates the principles of the NHS IMO.

 

In the "compensation culture" however, use the current "If you clear your path you could be liable" warning.

 

So by NOT doing something you are NOT liable for a claim for compensation. Therefore if you choose NOT to drink to such excess that you end up in hospital you don't pay anything. However the Hospital SHOULD be able to sue/claim compensation if you have CHOSEN to be negligent, OR against someone who CHOSE to spike a persons drinks.

 

In the same way IF you choose to go skiing, break a leg and do NOT have insurance to cover medical bills, then they SHOULD be able to sue you. It was your choice.

 

Not that it bothers us here, but why should (for example) a Pensioner have a tax bill that includes costs for people who are simply unbelievably thick or arrogant?

 

As for the OP, encouraging taxes in ANYWAY is fraught with danger. So CAMRA get the tax on beers over 5%, how long before some "minority anti alcohol naziesque lobby group" do a "global warming" statistics presentation that shows lower strength beer is more dangerous becuase you drink more by volume and it is a bigger health risk and should also be taxed more heavily than say Red Wine which is good for you?

[bridge too far]

Phil, can you just imagine the administration costs!

 

"Oh sorry Mr Jones, you'll have to pay for your hospital treatment for amputation / eye treatment / heart failure because you CHOSE to overeat for all those years leading to diabetes". "Aah Mrs Smith, sorry here's a big bill for you because you CHOSE to live until your 80s".

 

My god, it would need a huge pool of lawyers to administer that!

[dubai_phil]

Phil, can you just imagine the administration costs!

 

"Oh sorry Mr Jones, you'll have to pay for your hospital treatment for amputation / eye treatment / heart failure because you CHOSE to overeat for all those years leading to diabetes". "Aah Mrs Smith, sorry here's a big bill for you because you CHOSE to live until your 80s".

 

My god, it would need a huge pool of lawyers to administer that!

 

Precisely.

 

In which case it's bound to happen, after all, everyone knows that once you appoint one administrator/lawyer in a hospital you get a thousand.

 

You don't have nurses anymore, just admins & lawyers:D

[bridge too far]

Precisely.

 

In which case it's bound to happen, after all, everyone knows that once you appoint one administrator/lawyer in a hospital you get a thousand.

 

You don't have nurses anymore, just admins & lawyers:D

 

I don't think NHS hospitals have lawyers on their payrolls. They tend to contract with them on an 'as needed' basis.

 

Of course, until the early 90s, the health service had Crown Immunity which meant they couldn't be sued anyway.

[fish fingers]

Ban all alcohol.

 

It should be illegal; it's far more destructuve than smack, cake or clarky cap.

 

Either that or make all drugs legal.

 

clearly you've been on the magic monkey juice with comments like that.

[Lord Duckhunter]

We dont live in East germany circa 1978, if it's legal and duty is paid then any retailer can charge what they like for beer, it's none of the Govt business.

 

If the Govt bring this in then I find it hard to tally with their loosening of the licencing laws.

 

Binge drinking is an issue, but the problem is three fold in my opinion.

 

1. There are laws around being drunk and disorderly, but they never seem to be enforced nowadays.We need to put the shame back into being drunk and sick in public. French culture is awash with drinking and from an early age (and in some cases very cheap) and yet you rarely see French teenagers staggering around drunk. To be seen staggering around or sick in public in France, would bring great shame on your family.

 

2.Landlords used to have a free reign when dealing with youngsters drinking. We regulary used to drink under age and the landlord knew about it. If we got out of hand, the landlord or a local would step in and sort us out.I learnt to drink in a pub with older blokes and a landlord who looked out for us. Nowadays the old fashioned landlords are dissapearing and we have Managers of drink factories.

 

3.Drink that tastes like a soft drink. In my opinion this is the biggest problem. A teenager can only drink so much beer or lager, before becoming sick and feeling quesy. These new drinks allow them to drink and drink, with the effect only coming later on.

 

 

Drink when taken properly is a wonderful thing and a pub the finest place in the world. The kids need to be taught to respect drink and use the pub as a social place. The people I've met and stories I've heard in a pub have made my life a lot more interseting.

[Colinjb]

There should be a minimum charge for Alcohol.

 

Talk of 'cheap crap' would then be irrelevant as higher quality products would then be at the same price as the mass produced fizz that solely exists to get the dregs and tearaway teenagers leathered. It would also price many people out of getting leathered as a lifestyle and hopefully let them get some perspective.

 

Pubs would have a chance to be competitive again and maybe, just maybe there could be a chance for the social aspects they bring to thrive again.

 

The smoking ban does need to be re-appraised though, because that is the big killer on public houses.

[Hatch]

How much of a pint of lager that costs , say , £3 is tax?

[bungle]

How much of a pint of lager that costs , say , £3 is tax?

 

Somewhere near £1.50 I believe.

 

The problem is that beer duty unfairly hits local pubs, who have to pass on the price to their customers (i.e. A 1p rise at budget time can put 5p on in a pub), but the big chains and supermarkets can absorb it.

 

Hence, raising beer duty has no impact on cutting down binge drinking.

 

Edit for bonus info: http://www.thepublican.com/story.asp?storyCode=63085

[Ponty]

Somewhere near £1.50 I believe.

 

The problem is that beer duty unfairly hits local pubs, who have to pass on the price to their customers (i.e. A 1p rise at budget time can put 5p on in a pub), but the big chains and supermarkets can absorb it.

 

Hence, raising beer duty has no impact on cutting down binge drinking.

 

Edit for bonus info: http://www.thepublican.com/story.asp?storyCode=63085

 

Why does a 1p rise in tax put 5p on a pint though, if approx. half of a £3 pint is tax? In fact, if pubs were serious about not ripping off customers, a 1p rise in tax would put 1p on a pint.

[Thedelldays]

differences in cultures

 

My missus father lives in Spain...his step daughter goes to school there and it is second nature for the school to offer a variety of alcohol/Beers at sports days and parents evenings for the adults..

 

I left school in 96 but that simply did not happen at Bellemoor or Tanners Brook...

[Saints11]

Ive got work tonight at a nightclub. . . all drinks £1 (doubles £2), except bottles which are £1.20!

 

The contents of each glass bottle has to be placed into a plastic cup, as someone got bottled a month or so ago!

 

Good times

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Ive got work tonight at a nightclub. . . all drinks £1 (doubles £2), except bottles which are £1.20!

 

The contents of each glass bottle has to be placed into a plastic cup, as someone got bottled a month or so ago!

 

Good times

 

Blame the promoters, not the punters. If drinks are that cheap, people WILL buy them, the nightclub you work for is just being irresponsible

[Thedelldays]

Blame the promoters, not the punters. If drinks are that cheap, people WILL buy them, the nightclub you work for is just being irresponsible

what happened to personal responsibility..?

if I drink myself to death, then that was my choice

[RonManager]

what happened to personal responsibility..?

if I drink myself to death, then that was my choice

 

Promises, promises.

 

 

Still on the Torpoint ferry?

[Wilko]

There is one simple way of solving the problem of binge drinking: stop supermarkets selling alcohol so cheaply. Asda is particularly bad at this. It has been known to sell its own brand vodka at a loss, even cheaper than the equivalent quantity of mineral water.

 

Unfortunately, we all know that the Government is only interested in appeasing large companies, rather than saving small, independent pubs. Therefore, hundreds of pubs close every month, while we have a Tesco express on every corner. It's the future.

[Thedelldays]

Promises, promises.

 

 

Still on the Torpoint ferry?

no..and it did snow a tad after though..

[Ponty]

I see the Government have banned drinks promotions in pubs and drinking games... I'm not sure how they're going to ban drinking games exactly but nevermind.

 

As legislation goes, it doesn't exactly support the pub industry, does it?

[mightysaints]

As per usual this is all about sound bites with an election comming up. Whoever is in will just tax booze to death and say its a deterent. What crap,its a way of raising revenue on the back of saying we the Gov do care and think they know best. About time the tax on booze was different between pubs and shops. I am always amazed at how easy it is for kids to get hold of beer. The fines are not a deterent. Maybe if say a Tesco was caught selling to persons under aged then not just that store but all of Tescos get banned for a week for selling beer and spirits, imagine the cost to the company. I worked in Finland and they had Alcohol shops. You could only get good booze and spirits from these shops. Ineffect they were goverment bonded outlets with massive tax on what they sold. I just went to the local supermarket and brought 4% beer. Finland still has a big problem with booze so the high tax does not work. One problem we do have is that those that do cause violence in our streets nearly always have form in one way or another.We,the plod,the press blame the booze as an easy excuse that booze is the route cause of all evils. Next we will have prohabition with this nanny state.

[69 saint]

First it was the fags remember when you said when they got to a £1 a pack i'm givving up but found you were hooked.Now its time for the beer dont matter how much it cost you will pay it in the end,petrol is another one...

[Mao Cap]

I fully support this, though I'd lower the legal drinking age to 16 as well so that teenagers can be socialised into drinking in pubs earlier, rather than today's initiation of hanging around outside newsagents and kids' playgrounds with tinnies, getting gobbier and gobbier until there's a fight with other kids or a respectable type who gives them a dirty look.

 

The government should be encouraging drinking to be a civilised, social activity done in public houses. If I've got to pay slightly more for some cans or bottles when I go to house parties, I'd gladly do it if it had the beneficial effect that I think it would.