No one worried at the level of spending..?

[JibMcdo]

Neither are many of the people running Premiership clubs but if you read what David Sullivan has to say about their finances it is quite disturbing.

 

Yes, but we are debt free. People don't seem to be grasping that concept. Most Premier League clubs are operating in millions and millions of £££s of debt. You only have to see the recent story regarding Abramovich wiping out £340m for Chelsea to be "virtually debt free".

[Window Cleaner]

Yes, but we are debt free. People don't seem to be grasping that concept. Most Premier League clubs are operating in millions and millions of £££s of debt. You only have to see the recent story regarding Abramovich wiping out £340m for Chelsea to be "virtually debt free".

 

I don't think Abramovich has wiped out anything, he's just converted his loans into capital parts.Probably means he takes anything Chelsea make in a season

and sticks it in his pocket.

 

anyway what Sullivan says is that most prem teams have already borrowed against future ticket money and all TV revenue.

Edited 12 January, 2010 by Window Cleaner

[John B]

Yes, but we are debt free. People don't seem to be grasping that concept. Most Premier League clubs are operating in millions and millions of £££s of debt. You only have to see the recent story regarding Abramovich wiping out £340m for Chelsea to be "virtually debt free".

 

We were debt free I agree but how is ML financing SFC that is a question nobody knows.

 

It could be like Chelsea

[Viking Warrior]

Dell Days = the new alpine saint

 

Moan Moan Moan .

[John B]

Dell Days = the new alpine saint

 

Moan Moan Moan .

 

No I dont think he is

 

He probably thinks there is no such thing as a free lunch

[Arizona]

No I dont think he is

 

He probably thinks there is no such thing as a free lunch

 

It's not so much a free lunch as a mutual partnership.

 

Markus invests money to improve the squad and makes Saints a better team. As a result more fans turn up on a Saturday and give him their hard earned cash in exchange for a ticket, a replica shirt, a pie, a pint etc. On top of that, IF we get promoted even more cash wielding fans turn up and Sky give us a great big pot of money just for being in the Premiership.

 

Net result, we get good football, Liebherr gets money.

[Thedelldays]

Dell Days = the new alpine saint

 

Moan Moan Moan .

 

Do people really have tunnel vision like you?

 

 

Look at Chelsea. At a drop of a hat the money abramovic LOANED them was turned into equity, probably to please the masses in UEFA

 

what IF we go further up and MORE money is required to get to the prem and ML decided that handing out free millions is just not acceptable.

 

To even suggest we will get free hand outs for the next 5 years is plain daft IMO. At some point a balance has to be found at SMS. But at what cost? No promotion to the prem? Relegation from the prem?

 

Like I have said, you only have to look at every single league in England to see what can easily b achieved in a bad way. I just hope we will never have to face that again

[krissyboy31]

Nobody wants to see us overstretch ourselves but the spending budget was agreed when ML first took over. Because our matchday income is so much more than what was originally expected, it has allowed us to bring forward the Staplewood improvements and given us extra spending power in the transfer market.

 

ML and NC did not get where they are by being frivolous with money. ML may be having a bit of fun with his personal fortune while he is still young enough to appreciate it but make no mistake, SFC is being run as a business and will be expected to at least break even after the 5 year plan has been achieved.

[Thedelldays]

The cost of the training ground is from his own bck pocket

[Toadhall Saint]

NC is an ex banker. Do you really think he would over stretch us? Not only would he be putting the club in potentially a difficult position but he would fall foul of ML, NC is not about to start ****ing ML's money up the wall. All speculation of course as is the rest of this thread.

[CB Fry]

It's not so much a free lunch as a mutual partnership.

 

Markus invests money to improve the squad and makes Saints a better team. As a result more fans turn up on a Saturday and give him their hard earned cash in exchange for a ticket, a replica shirt, a pie, a pint etc. On top of that, IF we get promoted even more cash wielding fans turn up and Sky give us a great big pot of money just for being in the Premiership.

 

Net result, we get good football, Liebherr gets money.

 

 

I didn't realise it was that simple.

 

Maybe someone should tell Hull, Bolton, Blackburn, that lot down the road and pretty much every Premier League team in the country, because I don't think they'd recognise your crock of gold at the end of the rainbow theory.

[krissyboy31]

The cost of the training ground is from his own bck pocket

 

Yes but NC said it was out of this years budget. Everything in this years budget (apart from the excess gate receipts) is from NL's back pocket.

[Thedelldays]

NC is an ex banker. Do you really think he would over stretch us? Not only would he be putting the club in potentially a difficult position but he would fall foul of ML, NC is not about to start ****ing ML's money up the wall. All speculation of course as is the rest of this thread.

 

To be honest. Being a banker is hardly a great example today is it.

 

 

Anyway I'm sure it will all be fine just would not like to think that the worst could happen again

[RonManager]

The cost of the training ground is from his own bck pocket

 

Sorry to butt in, but is it snowing in Plymouth?

[Thedelldays]

Who is to say that ML will not not want to draw a very large salary when weare raking in the mega money in the prem. This just giving us enough to finish 17th

[Thedelldays]

Sorry to butt in, but is it snowing in Plymouth?

 

No mate. Raining heavily am on the torpoint ferry at the mo

[benjii]

If you spend more than you make, you either:

 

a) continue to incur increasing amounts of debt; or

 

b) are dependent on the goodwill of people.

 

I doubt anyone disputes we are spending more than we make. Given the club denies (a), it is obvious that (b) applies. I have no problem with (b) applying as Mr Liebherr seems great (!) and is also improving the infrastructure of the club (which is decent anyway) and seems to have a long-term vision.

 

It is still quite prudent though, for us lot to recognise that (b) is the position we are in.

[krissyboy31]

Who is to say that ML will not not want to draw a very large salary when weare raking in the mega money in the prem. This just giving us enough to finish 17th

 

If he needed to draw an income from a provisional football club, he wouldn't have taken us over in the first place. His income from MALI, his other investments, dividends from Leibherr and interest in his own personal bank account make the salary RL drew, seem like change for the charity box.

[Chez]

people keep saying ML has paid for this and that out of his own pocket, but is there any firm evidence that this is the case other than to buy the club in the first place? I'm sure the same thing was said about Gaydamak only for the skates to find out he was actually lending the club the money for it to be repaid at a later date (when he got bored etc). Who's to say that ML is not doing the exact same thing?

[benjii]

people keep saying ML has paid for this and that out of his own pocket, but is there any firm evidence that this is the case other than to buy the club in the first place? I'm sure the same thing was said about Gaydamak only for the skates to find out he was actually lending the club the money for it to be repaid at a later date (when he got bored etc). Who's to say that ML is not doing the exact same thing?

 

NC has said publically that the investment has not come from any debt. He was quite clear that there is no debt so whether that's "evidence" or not is up to you, but I suggest he would look somewhat silly if it was untrue.

[Arizona]

people keep saying ML has paid for this and that out of his own pocket, but is there any firm evidence that this is the case other than to buy the club in the first place? I'm sure the same thing was said about Gaydamak only for the skates to find out he was actually lending the club the money for it to be repaid at a later date (when he got bored etc). Who's to say that ML is not doing the exact same thing?

 

I'm sure that will be revealed when our annual accounts are published. Not sure when that is, anyone know?

[Torrent Of Abuse]

The thing I take issue with about this thread TDD is that you and GlasgowSaint in particular seem to have revelled in the idea that you have said from the start of the season that we should be at least pushing for the playoffs this year and yet once we do, once we start seriously splashing the cash to get real quality in, you seem to get squeamish. What exactly had happened? What alarm bells have gone off?

 

Our costs are looking more like a Championship side but that is exactly what is being built here and it's exactly what you and I and others here have asked for. What is the problem here? We have not gone onto debt as so many other clubs have. We have not simply bought players at the expense of the facilities as so many other clubs have. I understand the wariness of being a billionaire's plaything but that was true when we were bought and yet no-one complained. So why now? If the spending of money scars some people, remember a lot of damage was done to it in the name of NOT spending money. Simply spending the money is not a problem for a club. Going into debt is - and that seems to not be the way for Liebherr.

 

We have what seems to be a great owner. I'm just lost for a reason why people are getting edgy now (rather than earlier) when he has done nothing actually wrong yet. Are we getting scared of our own shadows?

[krissyboy31]

people keep saying ML has paid for this and that out of his own pocket, but is there any firm evidence that this is the case other than to buy the club in the first place? I'm sure the same thing was said about Gaydamak only for the skates to find out he was actually lending the club the money for it to be repaid at a later date (when he got bored etc). Who's to say that ML is not doing the exact same thing?

 

He is not giving it to "our team" Southampton Football Club he is investing it in "his business" Southampton Football Club. He has agreed budgets for his 5 year plan and that money will have to be recouped by the company eventually. However, if after the 5 years we have regained Premier League status, the book price of the company, should be more than ML has invested.

[Toadhall Saint]

To be honest. Being a banker is hardly a great example today is it.

 

 

Anyway I'm sure it will all be fine just would not like to think that the worst could happen again

 

 

Not the most respected job granted but he is not responsible for share holder value at SFC is he? He looks after one client and that is ML who by all accounts trusts him implicitly.

 

At the end of the day no one wants to be in the position we were in last year so we have to trust those at the helm unless they are proved to be involved in wrong doing. At the mo' everything is reasonably rosy obviously, that can change but that isn't going to happen overnight.

 

Your right to have this debate TDD but the debate is based on ifs and no facts so until we have any facts or even suspicions then its a mute debate.

[Thedelldays]

The thing I take issue with about this thread TDD is that you and GlasgowSaint in particular seem to have revelled in the idea that you have said from the start of the season that we should be at least pushing for the playoffs this year and yet once we do, once we start seriously splashing the cash to get real quality in, you seem to get squeamish. What exactly had happened? What alarm bells have gone off?

 

 

 

sorry, what a load of bollix....

 

yes I did and do expect us to challenge, I did whilst being called a plastic fan, a ***T as I dont go as much as others, UNREALISTIC..you name it, I was called it..whilst the "realists" could not imagine life past 19th place..

 

My OP has nothing to do with my expectations..

 

very few (if any) pompey fans asked a single question when they were dancing around southsea in 2008 saying "ave that scummaz"...

 

history and the state of football today TELLS us that is may well be wise to be a bit cautious and MAYBE (who would have thought) ask one or two questions....

[Window Cleaner]

I'm sure that will be revealed when our annual accounts are published. Not sure when that is, anyone know?

 

they aren't published, merely submitted to companies house. I think you'd have to pay to see them.

[Torrent Of Abuse]

Who is to say that ML will not not want to draw a very large salary when weare raking in the mega money in the prem. This just giving us enough to finish 17th

 

You might as well ask "what if he asks for our 1st born child in order to secure a season ticket when we qualify for Europe".

 

I guess he could but then why fear that now when he has done nothing to even raise the slightest alarm? Remember we have had board members who have taken very nice salaries for years without giving us a anything other than mediocrity in return. How was that any better than now?

[Saint Without a Halo]

NC is an ex banker. Do you really think he would over stretch us? Not only would he be putting the club in potentially a difficult position but he would fall foul of ML, NC is not about to start ****ing ML's money up the wall. All speculation of course as is the rest of this thread.

 

Would have normally agreed with you were it not for the fact that since 2008 bankers seem to have stretched the whole worlds economy!

 

What ever happened to the saying "As safe as banks"

 

However it shows great intelligence by NC to get out of banking at the right time!

[Toadhall Saint]

Would have normally agreed with you were it not for the fact that since 2008 bankers seem to have stretched the whole worlds economy!

 

What ever happened to the saying "As safe as banks"

 

However it shows great intelligence by NC to get out of banking at the right time!

 

I think you'll find it was certain major banks (not all). Oh and I think that some of the state of the world economy is down to individuals living way way beyond there means.

[West End Saint]

Unless I am missing something I thought we were debt free ie the money being spent is not borrowed or a debt have I got it wrong.

 

As far as I can tell the people running the club are doing things the right way long may it continue we are very lucky.

 

Also now that we are debt free are we not bringing in enough revenue to sustain what we are spending ?

[Torrent Of Abuse]

sorry, what a load of bollix....

 

yes I did and do expect us to challenge, I did whilst being called a plastic fan, a ***T as I dont go as much as others, UNREALISTIC..you name it, I was called it..whilst the "realists" could not imagine life past 19th place..

 

My OP has nothing to do with my expectations..

 

very few (if any) pompey fans asked a single question when they were dancing around southsea in 2008 saying "ave that scummaz"...

 

history and the state of football today TELLS us that is may well be wise to be a bit cautious and MAYBE (who would have thought) ask one or two questions....

 

Your OP does have a lot to do with your expectations because if you want and expect us to be promoted, it has to come with investment in the team. So why get cold feet when that investment comes?

 

Those Pompey fans would have been wise to ask where the money was coming from but more precisely to question the character of the person owning them. Even from day one Saints fans drew attention to Gaydamak's unpleasant associations. He was no simple businessman so it's facetious to draw comparisons between him and Liebherr. Liebherr has actually put value in - and continues to invest not only in players but also in parts of the club that will hold their value. This is not Gaydamak's Laundromat: it is a real business that can see real profits and has enough money to avoid going into debt to get there.

 

I continue to point you to the fact that it was not Pompey's spending which has killed them but how they were funded. For the Arabs to buy a club whose assets are outweighed by their debt is ludicrous. For them to add to that is suicide. If Liebherr spends £30m and sells us for £60m he will have done good business but the important part will be us not going into debt. A relatively small debt killed us before. A far larger one will kill Pompey. For us to be sold debt-free for £60m in a few years should not cause us any more fear than us being here in League 1 worth £15m. In either case it would depend on the new owners. As Pompey have not been selective in any of their recent owners, they are now reaping what they sowed. How can they find so many so-called rich people who can only work by borrowing money?

[Thedelldays]

Your OP does have a lot to do with your expectations

funny..that after numerous pages, you are the only one that has said this...most seem to think it was a valid question

[Saint Without a Halo]

Unless I am missing something I thought we were debt free ie the money being spent is not borrowed or a debt have I got it wrong.

 

As far as I can tell the people running the club are doing things the right way long may it continue we are very lucky.

 

Also now that we are debt free are we not bringing in enough revenue to sustain what we are spending ?

 

No we cant possibly bring in as much as we are currently spending given we are in league 1. I understood we are spending in line with a five year plan and the revenues over the five years match the spend so therefore it is imperative we progress and go up!

[BadgerBadger]

Who is to say that ML will not not want to draw a very large salary when weare raking in the mega money in the prem. This just giving us enough to finish 17th

 

You might as well ask "what if he asks for our 1st born child in order to secure a season ticket when we qualify for Europe".

 

I guess he could but then why fear that now when he has done nothing to even raise the slightest alarm? Remember we have had board members who have taken very nice salaries for years without giving us a anything other than mediocrity in return. How was that any better than now?

 

Well said TOA - who is to say many things might or might not happen, just don't get the doom and gloom approach to our set up. Most people we're more upbeat before we went in to admin

[Torrent Of Abuse]

funny..that after numerous pages, you are the only one that has said this...most seem to think it was a valid question

 

No need to be so touchy, TDD. Surely as this is a forum for all views, you can put up with me disagreeing with you can't you? I think there are a few people here disagreeing with your OP - but that's not really the issue at hand is it? It would be pointless to pose a question everyone agreed with. Wouldn't it?

 

I'll say again that I am not worried about us spending like a Championship side because that is what is required for a 5 year plan. I would be concerned if that spending involved debt but we are constantly being assured that this is not the case. I am happy that we have enough knowledgeable posters on here who will be able to find the accounts and let us know if the club are in fact reneging on that promise to stay debt-free.

 

If we were spending based on debt I would be worried but to worry based simply on spending itself is (IMO) being scared of shadows.

[John B]

It's not so much a free lunch as a mutual partnership.

 

Markus invests money to improve the squad and makes Saints a better team. As a result more fans turn up on a Saturday and give him their hard earned cash in exchange for a ticket, a replica shirt, a pie, a pint etc. On top of that, IF we get promoted even more cash wielding fans turn up and Sky give us a great big pot of money just for being in the Premiership.

 

Net result, we get good football, Liebherr gets money.

 

I agree with you I was just trying to suggest a reason for the TDD post

[mattyd]

My concern isn't about our current spending or the wages. We known it is investment income from ML. My worry is what will happen if he leaves e.g. the skates owner? we we be left in trouble with huge outgoings in wages etc, without the income?

[hypochondriac]

My concern isn't about our current spending or the wages. We known it is investment income from ML. My worry is what will happen if he leaves e.g. the skates owner? we we be left in trouble with huge outgoings in wages etc, without the income?

 

Wages are the key issue. I believe we will have a wage structure in place and we will be able to afford our wages if ML leaves.

[Polaroid Saint]

Wages are the key issue. I believe we will have a wage structure in place and we will be able to afford our wages if ML leaves.

 

I believe this to be the case. The spending is consistent with everything that has been said and done so far.

 

ML has agreed with NC to craft a decent football side, with a sensible, sustainable structure supported by a large and eager fan base.

 

That is the five year plan. NOT some dream Prem ticket and Sky Cash; I very much doubt there will be anywhere near the windfall there is at the moment. The bottom is falling out of the Prem football at the moment and it's gonna take it lot to stop it crashing - let alone sustain it as it is for five years.

 

Saints will thus soon be ideally placed (thanks to fans base/structure/facilities) to lead the bright new dawn of British football. The (ahem) 'superclubs' will enter some mad-arsed europaleague and those clubs without debt, and with good fan bases, will rise up and compete. Those feigning their status and over spending (at whatever level) will sadly have to sink and regroup as other clubs have had to do.

[JustMike]

to be fair they have said from the start that they want us to be self sufficient, there must be plans afoot for this to happen away from the football because as we all know, the football alone isnt enough.

[JustMike]

I believe this to be the case. The spending is consistent with everything that has been said and done so far.

 

ML has agreed with NC to craft a decent football side, with a sensible, sustainable structure supported by a large and eager fan base.

 

That is the five year plan. NOT some dream Prem ticket and Sky Cash; I very much doubt there will be anywhere near the windfall there is at the moment. The bottom is falling out of the Prem football at the moment and it's gonna take it lot to stop it crashing - let alone sustain it as it is for five years.

 

Saints will thus soon be ideally placed (thanks to fans base/structure/facilities) to lead the bright new dawn of British football. The (ahem) 'superclubs' will enter some mad-arsed europaleague and those clubs without debt, and with good fan bases, will rise up and compete. Those feigning their status and over spending (at whatever level) will sadly have to sink and regroup as other clubs have had to do.

 

I dont think this is the case at all, its as popular as its been, coupled with the fact that no one team is walking it this year. More countries watch prem football this season than before, a rise that has continued. Just because we see the likes of p*mpey going to the wire that imo is not a reflection on the prem, more of bad management, something in which we are all too aware of

[Andy_Porter]

I dont think this is the case at all, its as popular as its been, coupled with the fact that no one team is walking it this year. More countries watch prem football this season than before, a rise that has continued. Just because we see the likes of p*mpey going to the wire that imo is not a reflection on the prem, more of bad management, something in which we are all too aware of

 

It's not just Pompey tough. Man United, Liverpool, Hull etc are all in a terrible position financially.

 

Man United just posted their annual accounts and they made a 40m profit after selling Ronaldo for 80m upfront, winning the league / cup and getting to the Champions league final.

 

If they end this season without any trophies and crash out of the CL early they will be posting losses of 50-60m.

 

They're ****ed.

[Dark Munster]

Spot on. Their business plan would have been something like this; buy us on the very cheap, knowing the infrustructure, support etc is there, cut out a lot of the inefficiencies in the way the club is run, use their expertise to make us a success and get us back into the Premiership and then sell on for a tidy profit. At absolute worst they'll get back what they put in if it all goes wrong.

 

"We will act rapidly, but also plan for the long term, because I am here for the long term." - ML

[hypochondriac]

I believe this to be the case. The spending is consistent with everything that has been said and done so far.

 

ML has agreed with NC to craft a decent football side, with a sensible, sustainable structure supported by a large and eager fan base.

 

That is the five year plan. NOT some dream Prem ticket and Sky Cash; I very much doubt there will be anywhere near the windfall there is at the moment. The bottom is falling out of the Prem football at the moment and it's gonna take it lot to stop it crashing - let alone sustain it as it is for five years.

 

Saints will thus soon be ideally placed (thanks to fans base/structure/facilities) to lead the bright new dawn of British football. The (ahem) 'superclubs' will enter some mad-arsed europaleague and those clubs without debt, and with good fan bases, will rise up and compete. Those feigning their status and over spending (at whatever level) will sadly have to sink and regroup as other clubs have had to do.

 

Like who?

[Dark Munster]

It's a fair point.

 

I'm certainly not saying ML looks at us a just numbers on a balance sheet and of course his visibility is great.

 

If he grows to love the club great, but even that has risks.

 

Simon Jordan and John Madjeski both loved their clubs (Madjeski loved his hometown more than football but it is the same point) but both have stopped investing because football clubs are selfish bottomless pits. And they are both getting plenty of stick now, rightly or wrongly.

 

My main point is warning against believing that this whole venture is football altruism where a billionaire is throwing money at Saints just for fun with no expectation of any return beyond the sporting.

 

He is enjoying going to the matches I am sure but I would also suggest the businessman in him enjoys the idea of delivering a stable Premier League football club and then selling that on at a profit within the decade. That, for me, would be his ultimate prize. After all, great businessmen know when to get out.

 

ML seems sensible, honest and is doing wonders for us, long may it continue. But I will always think that he will want to realise his investment one day, and I am perfectly happy with that.

 

:smt042 Let's say he gets out after 10 years (when he's in his seventies), takes Saints to the PL, and sells for a tidy profit of say £50 million. So he would make about £5 million per year on average: that means buying Saints earned him about 0.2% per year extra on top of his £2.5 billion.

 

He really needs that extra money!

[NickG]

Do people really have tunnel vision like you?

 

 

Look at Chelsea. fans having great time enjoying watching world class players At a drop of a hat the money abramovic LOANED them was turned into equity, probably to please the masses in UEFA

 

what IF we go further up and MORE money is required to get to the prem and ML decided that handing out free millions is just not acceptable.

 

To even suggest we will get free hand outs for the next 5 years is plain daft IMO.why is it daft to believe what the owner has said? At some point a balance has to be found at SMS. But at what cost? No promotion to the prem? Relegation from the prem?

 

Like I have said, you only have to look at every single league in England to see what can easily b achieved in a bad way. I just hope we will never have to face that again

 

can't see why you can't enjoy it rather than worrying about things that there is no basis for at the moment. Sure it may happen, but it could to anyone

[NickG]

1) we have no mortgage and saved on other costs

 

2) gates have increased

 

3) this will give us extra money to invest - fees and wages

 

4) none of us know the figures involved

 

5) we may not actually be stretching ourselves at all

 

6) when Cortese was directly asked whether fans, having recently experience

administration should worry about the clubs spending (talking about training ground) he replied that it is not from club money, nor loans, but Markus putting his hand in his pocket.

 

7) in proportion to his worth, Markus has spent (including buying the club) what we might spend on plasma or motorbike.

 

It doesn't seem to mirror skates and until I am given something to worry about I will enjoy it.

 

found where I did the example figures;

 

if Liebherr is worth the reported £2.5 billion.

 

Lets say, for easy maths his spending plan is;

 

club from administration £15m

training ground / initial redevlopment stadium / academy etc £5m

playing investment

09/10 £3m

10/11 £5m

11/12 £7m

12/13 £10m

 

total spend £45m. A lot of money.

 

But 1.8% of his worth.

 

I don't know what the average worth of "normal" people is but, again for easy maths perhaps £500,000?

 

1.8% of that is £9,000.

 

Sure if you were going to invest £9k you would want a return. But a lot of people would blow that on motorbike, holiday, boat etc for pleasure.

 

I am hoping this is how he looks at it!

[hypochondriac]

I reckon it's more about satisfaction. It must be a very rewarding venture.

[Arizona]

found where I did the example figures;

 

You are also forgetting that for most people a large proportion of their money is taken up with food, accomodation, bills, petrol etc. etc. Whilst I have no doubt Marcus spend more money on nice food, houses, cars etc. etc. It will still be a much lower proportion of his income.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that ML can put a much higher portion of his income towards 'recreational', for want of a better word, prospects.

[Thedelldays]

You are also forgetting that for most people a large proportion of their money is taken up with food, accomodation, bills, petrol etc. etc. Whilst I have no doubt Marcus spend more money on nice food, houses, cars etc. etc. It will still be a much lower proportion of his income.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that ML can put a much higher portion of his income towards 'recreational', for want of a better word, prospects.

you what...are you saying markus stays in a B&B when he is over here..?