No one worried at the level of spending..?

[Thedelldays]

Remember, they would have bought the club knowing all of this...it's not going to be a shock to them. People always have to put a downer on things.

downer on things..? I said I was going to enjoy the ride..

 

but you only have to look up and down the football leagues to see clubs in the crap spending above their means..so far, we are doing that...

 

plenty of clubs have mega rich owners who stop funding them from their back pocket...madjeski being one...

 

I will enjoy the ride, but it would be completely irresponsible not to have a slight concern now and then

[dockland Dave]

No idea where you get that from - got any hard facts? My guess (based on AP's words) is that we've got room for another two players at least before that is the case. Then we've got some deadwood to shift including at least one bench sitter and very high earner in Thomas (possibly).

Yes because ML is funding the difference. I have no statistical figures on income, but look at it like this, the first 4000 season ticket receipts would only pay for Thomas and Sagas wages (very general assumption of both being on 8k a week and average ST price to be £200 to include seniors, juniors and concessions). I suspect Lambert, Waigo, Fonte Davis are all on 5k +

 

I think recommended wages in a self-sufficient should amount to no more than 48% of turnover, obviously we are not in this bracket due to ML

[Toadhall Saint]

1000

 

100 is 100 million

 

So Markus at a minimum is worth 2,500,000,000? Wonder what the interest is on that little lot? Probably enough to fund a football club and then some.

[Matthew Le God]

So Markus at a minimum is worth 2,500,000,000? Wonder what the interest is on that little lot? Probably enough to fund a football club and then some.

 

Alot of that £2.5 billion will be tied up in investments and not earning any interest on it.

[Saint_clark]

downer on things..? I said I was going to enjoy the ride..

 

but you only have to look up and down the football leagues to see clubs in the crap spending above their means..so far, we are doing that...

 

plenty of clubs have mega rich owners who stop funding them from their back pocket...madjeski being one...

 

I will enjoy the ride, but it would be completely irresponsible not to have a slight concern now and then

 

I disagree. But there ya go.

[farawaysaint]

Alot of that £2.5 billion will be tied up in investments and not earning any interest on it.

 

The whole point of an investment is to earn a return So he'll be getting a dividend or interest on everything for sure.

[Big_Bald_Si]

He's paid off all our debts - that's the distinction between ML and other foreign investors at other clubs. If he decides to leave - we've no debt whatsoever. Transfer fees etc have been paid out his own pocket thus far.

 

Likes the rest of his businesses, we're debt free, and we'll be run on sound financial grounds. Sure, he's given Pardew an "enviable" war chest to play with, but it looks as though we have to offload players to ensure the wage bill isn't too high.

 

I'm very encouraged by everything he's done so far, and i'm not in the least bit worried by it. He's the only foreign investor in the football league to be looking to buy us a new training complex.

 

He's here for the long term people - no need to worry at all.

 

COYR

[dubai_phil]

Delldays makes a valid point. He is right to question it.

 

If I can use a "once upon a time metaphor" I can draw some comparisons as to how the spending can be justified.

 

Firstly, as others have said, ML paid around 14mil for the club. IF for a moment you ignore the old debts, the capital value of the club in the CCC was around 30 mil (ie our share value). So, spending say 2 or 3 million on top of the 14mil gives ML a GUIDE value - he's almost doubled his mmoney (on paper) when we reach the CCC)

 

The business plan that ML & NC would have worked to would expected our average attendance to be around 15/16,000 this year. It has been higher, running at say an average of 24,000 will bring in enough to cover that outlay without any cash needing to be put in.

 

But in the once upon a time land, some careful research showed that in order to reach the PL, establish a club and then move to challenge for a Europa League spot could need a cash investment of in best case about 150mil and in the worst case of 200mil.

 

Now with increased revenues, and avoiding banana skins, the actual TV money & commercial income (& prize money) IF the Europa League was reached on target would actually come VERY close to covering that outlay. Sure it assumed you didn't buy too many Uttaka's but it could be done. The TRICK however is that the investment HAD to be made before each season, NOT as in a Lowe type model IF it was earnt.

 

So buy the club at the time 30mil, cover the debts, 30 mil. Invest in the team to get out the CCC 10/15mil. Invest in the team to SURVIVE in season 1 in the PL 30mil.

Invest in the team to challenge for a top half place 40mil.

 

Now this wasn't total guesswork, it followed the trends of the clubs that did get up.

 

So, the key element of such a business plan is that the "owner" didn't need to let Saggy chops take charge, but he (it/they) did need to put the seed capital in place each year. The PL investment isn't that outrageous when you consider the sums from TV and from prize money & merchandising.

 

So the relevance to the current spending spree?

 

AP & NC said they would wait until January. They can see we have a chance to push for the play-offs, but we are doing it by buying 2 or 3 players. That seems to follow everything they have said. IF we pull it off this season, ML will have doubled his capital value (potentially) and no doubt NC will be on a nice fat bonus cheque.

 

If we DON't make it, the quality we are buying will stand us in good stead for next year, I'm sure NC & ML have a provision of another 2/3 mil. They'll not make so much paper potential profit but they'll still be quids in.

 

As CBF says, running a TIGHT ship is SO much easier when you have the capital

[Stepgar]

Well time for my tuppence. Just think about how much ML actually paid for Saints and what he could have paid for us if he had decided to enter the realms of footy ownership? 65/70mil?? Plus new players. If I would have bought a club I would have the most unbelievable business plan seen. I would have ensured that I not only put up t 15mil price to buy the club then I would ensure that I was in a position to move it forward. So I would have earmarked atleast a further 5 mil if not more for player purchases. In the first year. As businesses grow they rarely make a profit in the early years.

[Dark Munster]

I think TDD makes some valid points.

 

Let's remember that ML and NC don't love Saints like we do (I don't expect them to), they are business people and at the moment are making calculated punts.

 

But the challenge with English football is you can get promoted to the CCC and you won't make money - if we are buying £1m players now, the expectation is to be buying £3m players then.

 

And you can easily get promoted to the Prem and not make money - in our very best season up there we made £500k profit if memory serves, and that was a lifetime away when we were paying pauper wages.

 

Even Hull have racked up debts and they seem to have spent pretty conservatively. Your Boltons etc aint never going to make no money.

 

So we do have to watch the size of the bubble we are blowing up.

 

The plan I have no doubt from ML and NC is to get us to the Prem as quickly as possible and after a season or so sell high to the next passing arab/F1 owner/yank. It's a fine plan and I support it. They bought low and will sell high. But that was Madjeski's plan too and that didn't quite work.

 

 

So I am loving the current spending and don't question any motives from our owners. It's exciting and I love it.

 

But let's not kid ourselves that ML is Steve Gibson. The ML era will have a finite lifespan,whereas Gibson looks like he is there for life and for love, which brings its own problems.

 

But at the moment we all have the same agenda - Promotion, then Promotion. In a way, getting there is the easy bit. So let's worry about that for now, because it is enough to worry about.

 

Sorry, I have no doubt that you're wrong. ML is a multi-billionaire. He's in his sixties. He doesn't need to make money any more, he wants to enjoy it. If he wanted to make money he wouldn't invest in an English football club. What's that saying: if you want to make a small fortune in football, you have to start with a big one.

 

I think he simply wants the enjoyment of owning and creating a successful football team, without debts, by spending a tiny % of his enormous wealth (which just seems a lot to us paupers ).

[John B]

Sorry, I have no doubt that you're wrong. ML is a multi-billionaire. He's in his sixties. He doesn't need to make money any more, he wants to enjoy it. If he wanted to make money he wouldn't invest in an English football club. What's that saying: if you want to make a small fortune in football, you have to start with a big one.

 

I think he simply wants the enjoyment of owning and creating a successful football team, without debts, by spending a tiny % of his enormous wealth (which just seems a lot to us paupers ).

 

But what about NC ?

[Chez]

I don't want us to come across as flash and Chelsea/Man City-like in our spending, but then again Fulham did the same thing many years ago and no looks at them that way now. Mind you their excessive spending left them in a hole when the funds dried up and they have done well to survive.

 

I'm also slightly concerned that Pardew appears (and I realise I don't know what is happening behind the scenes) to be going for the big chequebook, buy from the division above approach in this window and has shown little in the way of scouting in league 2 or below. Unless of course there are no top talent available down there.

Edited 11 January, 2010 by Chez

[dubai_phil]

Well time for my tuppence. Just think about how much ML actually paid for Saints and what he could have paid for us if he had decided to enter the realms of footy ownership? 65/70mil?? Plus new players. If I would have bought a club I would have the most unbelievable business plan seen. I would have ensured that I not only put up t 15mil price to buy the club then I would ensure that I was in a position to move it forward. So I would have earmarked atleast a further 5 mil if not more for player purchases. In the first year. As businesses grow they rarely make a profit in the early years.

 

And therein is THE definitive comment about why Mark Fry was "not well liked" during his tenure as Administrator.

 

Simply because what you say is "so bleedin obvious" that he also knew that and used every trick in his book to try and get HIS hands on some of that "incremental budget" that he would have believed ANY bidder would have had.

 

That was his job and why it all took so long.

[corsacar saint]

AP has said he will only sign better players than he already has got[ So that has to mean

top of league one, [ which top 6 club would sell to us]. That leaves the championship,

and reserve premiership players.

Regarding ML, he is probably one of the top business men in europe, so why do we not

just enjoy the ride.[ With NC and ML we are in terrific hands].

[Chez]

AP has said he will only sign better players than he already has got[ So that has to mean

top of league one, [ which top 6 club would sell to us]. That leaves the championship,

and reserve premiership players.

 

absolute rubbish. There are quality players playing for poor sides and there are poor players in the quality sides.

[Sour Mash]

AP has said he will only sign better players than he already has got[ So that has to mean

top of league one, [ which top 6 club would sell to us]. That leaves the championship,

and reserve premiership players.

Regarding ML, he is probably one of the top business men in europe, so why do we not

just enjoy the ride.[ With NC and ML we are in terrific hands].

 

It doesn't mean that at all. It is easily possible and has been proven on numerous occasions in the past that quality players can be picked from further down the footballing pyramid, just takes a really good eye for a player and enough ground work.

[Charlie2008]

Don't worry TDD my old Plymouth mucker.

 

Everything will be fine...

 

:cool:

[CB Fry]

Sorry, I have no doubt that you're wrong. ML is a multi-billionaire. He's in his sixties. He doesn't need to make money any more, he wants to enjoy it. If he wanted to make money he wouldn't invest in an English football club. What's that saying: if you want to make a small fortune in football, you have to start with a big one.

 

I think he simply wants the enjoyment of owning and creating a successful football team, without debts, by spending a tiny % of his enormous wealth (which just seems a lot to us paupers ).

 

 

That would only stand up if it was his idea to invest in football and/or he had a long standing passion for football and specifically English football.

 

It was Cortese's idea to invest in Saints and he sold the concept as a business venture/opportunity to Leibherr.

 

You mention his age like Markus is a doddering old fool looking to put his feet up. Well, Rupert Murdoch is a billionaire and is 78.He's not stopping either.

 

So sorry we are definitely going to disagree here, there is no way that Saints is ML's retirement train-set to play with. It's a business venture. If it is anything it is a project for NC to run with. The success of it will be judged primarily in sporting terms, but ML is not going to lob millions at it just for fun. Expect an exit strategy (five years+ hence) and our owners not to lose out at that exit. It is business.

 

And that's absolutely fine by me.

[corsacar saint]

I will be totally amazed if we sign anyone from a mid table to bottom of the league team

in league 1, or a league 2 player in this window. If we sign Simeon Jackson, then you

could be proved right but I Doubt it.

[Sour Mash]

I will be totally amazed if we sign anyone from a mid table to bottom of the league team

in league 1, or a league 2 player in this window. If we sign Simeon Jackson, then you

could be proved right but I Doubt it.

 

What's your point?

[Chez]

I will be totally amazed if we sign anyone from a mid table to bottom of the league team

in league 1, or a league 2 player in this window. If we sign Simeon Jackson, then you

could be proved right but I Doubt it.

 

you could be right, but perhaps that says more for our scouting network, Pardew's ability to spot emerging talent, and maybe the pressure to get promotion now rather than build a side to go up next season if we don't make it this. That doesn't mean there is not real quality spread across this league and below.

 

Spending big now is fine, but I have to say that there's going to be so many out of contract players in the summer and with cash available for signing om fees and wages we could clean up the best talent without the millions on transfer fees. We are showing a lack of patience (or a huge desire to push on) and therefore proven talent rather than potential seems to be the order of the day.

 

In APs defence we have quite a lot of youngsters already so its mid career players we needed.

[Sour Mash]

That would only stand up if it was his idea to invest in football and/or he had a long standing passion for football and specifically English football.

 

It was Cortese's idea to invest in Saints and he sold the concept as a business venture/opportunity to Leibherr.

 

You mention his age like Markus is a doddering old fool looking to put his feet up. Well, Rupert Murdoch is a billionaire and is 78.He's not stopping either.

 

So sorry we are definitely going to disagree here, there is no way that Saints is ML's retirement train-set to play with. It's a business venture. If it is anything it is a project for NC to run with. The success of it will be judged primarily in sporting terms, but ML is not going to lob millions at it just for fun. Expect an exit strategy (five years+ hence) and our owners not to lose out at that exit. It is business.

 

And that's absolutely fine by me.

 

Spot on. Their business plan would have been something like this; buy us on the very cheap, knowing the infrustructure, support etc is there, cut out a lot of the inefficiencies in the way the club is run, use their expertise to make us a success and get us back into the Premiership and then sell on for a tidy profit. At absolute worst they'll get back what they put in if it all goes wrong.

[Andy_Porter]

Spot on. Their business plan would have been something like this; buy us on the very cheap, knowing the infrustructure, support etc is there, cut out a lot of the inefficiencies in the way the club is run, use their expertise to make us a success and get us back into the Premiership and then sell on for a tidy profit. At absolute worst they'll get back what they put in if it all goes wrong.

 

I'm sure their business plan involves selling at somepont but who's to say it's when we get back to the premiership?

 

Maybe it's a plan to get us into europe... who knows. Just enjoy the football we're playing and how we're going about it. I'm sure we've got a lot of good years ahead of us with ML and NC.

[Sour Mash]

I'm sure their business plan involves selling at somepont but who's to say it's when we get back to the premiership?

 

Maybe it's a plan to get us into europe... who knows. Just enjoy the football we're playing and how we're going about it. I'm sure we've got a lot of good years ahead of us with ML and NC.

 

Yeah, of course, my post is massively over-simplified. But they're definitely looking at it as an investment and will at some point look to get back what they've put in, maybe as profit from Champions League TV rights I hope....

[BadgerBadger]

I still think there is an element of philanthropy here - ML aint no spring chicken and he has the dosh to spread around.

 

We may be spending big but as investments go it's gotta be a good one, why buy players just good enough to get you out the league when you'll have to do another round of buying for the next league - we seem to be preparing for the Champ, shrewd move.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Yes because ML is funding the difference. I have no statistical figures on income, but look at it like this, the first 4000 season ticket receipts would only pay for Thomas and Sagas wages (very general assumption of both being on 8k a week and average ST price to be £200 to include seniors, juniors and concessions). I suspect Lambert, Waigo, Fonte Davis are all on 5k +

 

I think recommended wages in a self-sufficient should amount to no more than 48% of turnover, obviously we are not in this bracket due to ML

 

 

He might be funding the acquisition of infrastructure, but that is investment in the future growth of the Company. It has nothing to do with operational expenditure and NC has already stated that the club will fund itself. Unless I see concrete evidence to disprove this why should anyone doubt it now? It's fundamentally loopy to worry about something that there is no proof of, especially when we have good evidence that these guys know how to run a healthy business and then some! Simple fact is we've got the ownership we desired - we're getting players in that are going to be good for us for a little while, but we've got a very long way to go yet. This stuff is the least of our worries for the foreseeable future - we have a small matter of getting out of L1 to contend with - not easy whatever anyone says. Not only that, but I would take issue with the moaners/worryers who don't turn up and contribute to the coffers (because frankly in terms of support that's close to all we can/need do to influence the future fortunes of the club now).

[ghq]

A fair amount of criticism is being passed around on a relatively innocuous question it would seem.

I'm frankly overjoyed at the vision of the heirarchy at the moment. Having said that, I would really like to see some pruning of the squad. It does irk me to see wages disappearing weekly on players that would be lucky to command a regular spot with Totton or maybe even lesser teams. This seems to be the last vestige of the previous regime and I really would love to see this situation corrected.

The thread has made for interesting reading, thanks to all contributors.

[John B]

absolute rubbish. There are quality players playing for poor sides and there are poor players in the quality sides.

 

Totally agree MLT being a shining light in poor SFC teams of the 1990s

[Saint Fan CaM]

A fair amount of criticism is being passed around on a relatively innocuous question it would seem.

I'm frankly overjoyed at the vision of the heirarchy at the moment. Having said that, I would really like to see some pruning of the squad. It does irk me to see wages disappearing weekly on players that would be lucky to command a regular spot with Totton or maybe even lesser teams. This seems to be the last vestige of the previous regime and I really would love to see this situation corrected.

The thread has made for interesting reading, thanks to all contributors.

 

 

Gotta agree with that.

[Wes Tender]

That would only stand up if it was his idea to invest in football and/or he had a long standing passion for football and specifically English football.

 

It was Cortese's idea to invest in Saints and he sold the concept as a business venture/opportunity to Leibherr.

 

You mention his age like Markus is a doddering old fool looking to put his feet up. Well, Rupert Murdoch is a billionaire and is 78.He's not stopping either.

 

 

In general, I would agree with your summary. But there is just one small factor that makes me question this premise that the whole venture is purely an investment without any additional element of being a rich man's play thing.

 

If that were so, why would ML bother to attend pretty well every match? That is suggestive that his interest is deeper than one would expect of just an investor. It suggests that the interest is proprietorial. He must have his fingers in so many pies that his time is valuable, but yet he makes time to travel all this way to watch the matches.

 

When you contrast that with the situation down the road with their owner, who hasn't even attended one match, then it is reasonable to be suspicious about Al Faraj's motives, but to be encouraged about ML's hands on approach.

 

What is your take on ML's exemplary attendance record at matches? Is it just a diligent approach to business that he displays with all his companies, or is there the element of enjoyment with this one that encourages us to believe that he will become hooked as we are?

[RedAndWhite91]

In general, I would agree with your summary. But there is just one small factor that makes me question this premise that the whole venture is purely an investment without any additional element of being a rich man's play thing.

 

If that were so, why would ML bother to attend pretty well every match? That is suggestive that his interest is deeper than one would expect of just an investor. It suggests that the interest is proprietorial. He must have his fingers in so many pies that his time is valuable, but yet he makes time to travel all this way to watch the matches.

 

When you contrast that with the situation down the road with their owner, who hasn't even attended one match, then it is reasonable to be suspicious about Al Faraj's motives, but to be encouraged about ML's hands on approach.

 

What is your take on ML's exemplary attendance record at matches? Is it just a diligent approach to business that he displays with all his companies, or is there the element of enjoyment with this one that encourages us to believe that he will become hooked as we are?

 

I think you'll find that Al-Faraj hasn't even been to the UK since he took over Pompey.

[Wes Tender]

I think you'll find that Al-Faraj hasn't even been to the UK since he took over Pompey.

 

I know. They make all sorts of excuses saying that there are visa issues, etc. But then his brother seems to be able to attend the odd match without much problem.

[CB Fry]

In general, I would agree with your summary. But there is just one small factor that makes me question this premise that the whole venture is purely an investment without any additional element of being a rich man's play thing.

 

If that were so, why would ML bother to attend pretty well every match? That is suggestive that his interest is deeper than one would expect of just an investor. It suggests that the interest is proprietorial. He must have his fingers in so many pies that his time is valuable, but yet he makes time to travel all this way to watch the matches.

 

When you contrast that with the situation down the road with their owner, who hasn't even attended one match, then it is reasonable to be suspicious about Al Faraj's motives, but to be encouraged about ML's hands on approach.

 

What is your take on ML's exemplary attendance record at matches? Is it just a diligent approach to business that he displays with all his companies, or is there the element of enjoyment with this one that encourages us to believe that he will become hooked as we are?

 

 

It's a fair point.

 

I'm certainly not saying ML looks at us a just numbers on a balance sheet and of course his visibility is great.

 

If he grows to love the club great, but even that has risks.

 

Simon Jordan and John Madjeski both loved their clubs (Madjeski loved his hometown more than football but it is the same point) but both have stopped investing because football clubs are selfish bottomless pits. And they are both getting plenty of stick now, rightly or wrongly.

 

My main point is warning against believing that this whole venture is football altruism where a billionaire is throwing money at Saints just for fun with no expectation of any return beyond the sporting.

 

He is enjoying going to the matches I am sure but I would also suggest the businessman in him enjoys the idea of delivering a stable Premier League football club and then selling that on at a profit within the decade. That, for me, would be his ultimate prize. After all, great businessmen know when to get out.

 

ML seems sensible, honest and is doing wonders for us, long may it continue. But I will always think that he will want to realise his investment one day, and I am perfectly happy with that.

[Daren W]

Delldays still trying to put a downer on everything, I see...

 

He has a valid point and considering how bad things are at Pompey we have to learn from their mistakes.

 

The point is that Leibherr wants us to become a Premier League club as soon as possible and is budgeting accordingly, I would assume that once the sky money comes into the equation and there are full houses again then the situation will be very different.

 

I've seen more to convince me this club is being run properly in four months than I have in four years from the previous regimes...

 

That said we should applaud fans who ask questions when things are going well...

[opthomps]

I just see it as a rich mate lending another rich mate cash to do what he wants with. Sure Liebherr loves it, but he doesnt want to deal with the nitty gritty. This is real life football manager for NC. As long as there is progress even if we lose 30 Million quid a year then they wont mind too much.

 

Its all about that 5 yr plan, if we make it or nearly make it the guy is too rich to care about 10s of millions. As fans we just dont want them to become bored of this game and go out and buy John Madden or something. Either way IMO I welcome the fun and excitement and am not too worried. Whatever will be will be....... were going to wembley

[Saint Without a Halo]

We dont have a mortgage on the stadium anymore which puts us in a very strong position financially.

 

True however at gates of say an average of 20k and say an average ticket price of £20 (to make the maths easy) that is only 400k net income a game before expenses. Say 300k net of expenses and times it by 25 gates including cups gives at best 7.5m if we add another say 2.5m of income from food and beverages and commercial sales and advertising etc and the meagre amount of TV money you get in league 1 we are talking about net income of 10m to 12m out of which we have to pay all the clubs employee and player wages and other expenses. Doesnt really stretch to cover many £1.5m transfer fees does it?

 

We are investing at a defecit in order to increase revenues by getting the club first into the championship and then hopefully the premiere. Despite being bankrolled by a benefactor during this phase there is never the less a degree of risk in this if the time taken to grow the revenue takes longer than anticipated! It would be interesting to know in what form the additional money is being put into the club!

 

However like many of you on here I am enjoying the ride hope it lasts and I certainly hope the gamble pays off!

[dune]

He has a valid point and considering how bad things are at Pompey we have to learn from their mistakes.

 

The point is that Leibherr wants us to become a Premier League club as soon as possible and is budgeting accordingly, I would assume that once the sky money comes into the equation and there are full houses again then the situation will be very different.

 

I've seen more to convince me this club is being run properly in four months than I have in four years from the previous regimes...

 

That said we should applaud fans who ask questions when things are going well...

 

We are a different kettle of fish ( no pun intended) to the blue few. Mr Liebherr is Premier League in the amount of money he's got, wheras Portsmouth have attracted myriad small time dreamers.

 

Mr Liebherr has comitted to Saints and his family will be involved for years to come. It is early days but you have got to trust a man like Mr Liebherr and based on his actions so far he has done us proud.

 

We have no worries about money and no worries about the people running the club now.

 

Times are good so just enjoy the ride.

[Legod Third Coming]

If there is one truism in football, it is that investment in the first team is most likely to pay dividends with success on the pitch.

 

That being so and given our respective position and the owner's ability to foot the bill, I applaud the current ambition.

 

The risk is that the owner chooses to walk away. So you have to ask yourself how likely (having invested tens of millions already) this is?

 

For the short-term it's highly unlikely. Why get involved and lose such a substantial sum - and the dented pride.

 

More likely is that he intends to take the club further/higher and sell it - probably by floatation, which would explain his reasoning of employing a banker to run it.

 

So the only risk is that we don't rise quickly enough or the owner runs out of patience.

 

But what's the alternative??

 

Are there genuinely any clubs (or any of us) that live totally within their means? How many businesses have zero debt? How many of us?

[NickG]

1) we have no mortgage and saved on other costs

 

2) gates have increased

 

3) this will give us extra money to invest - fees and wages

 

4) none of us know the figures involved

 

5) we may not actually be stretching ourselves at all

 

6) when Cortese was directly asked whether fans, having recently experience

administration should worry about the clubs spending (talking about training ground) he replied that it is not from club money, nor loans, but Markus putting his hand in his pocket.

 

7) in proportion to his worth, Markus has spent (including buying the club) what we might spend on plasma or motorbike.

 

It doesn't seem to mirror skates and until I am given something to worry about I will enjoy it.

[MusicMan]

I’m more worried about NC. If he gets fed up with it all (he’s already thrown his toys out the pram a few times) and decides to go back to banking that he knows well and is good at, will ML still want to own us and put someone else in the top job.

[Daren W]

We are a different kettle of fish ( no pun intended) to the blue few. Mr Liebherr is Premier League in the amount of money he's got, wheras Portsmouth have attracted myriad small time dreamers.

 

Mr Liebherr has comitted to Saints and his family will be involved for years to come. It is early days but you have got to trust a man like Mr Liebherr and based on his actions so far he has done us proud.

 

We have no worries about money and no worries about the people running the club now.

 

Times are good so just enjoy the ride.

 

Oh, I'm enjoying the ride alright....

 

Everything about the man suggests long term planning. I've yet to see one single thing that indicates Leiherr is anything less than a responsible, decent man who approaches everything professionally and with long term planning for a stable, secure future.

 

I share Delldays' concerns but I don't believe that ANY football club can sustain the level of wages were seeing at the moment. Not one Premier league club could compete if Sky and chairmen's money was taken out of the equation and they had to rely on bums on seats. Football has indeed gone mad and is a rich man's plaything, even your a Man Utd fan or a Saints fan, a Liverpool fan or a Skate.

 

In regards to this thread, I'd argue why didn't Pompey learn from OUR mistakes? I have no sympathy for a club and set of fans who mocked us, ridiculed us and savoured our fall from grace and didn't learn one single thing from it.....

[Wes Tender]

It's a fair point.

 

I'm certainly not saying ML looks at us a just numbers on a balance sheet and of course his visibility is great.

 

If he grows to love the club great, but even that has risks.

 

Simon Jordan and John Madjeski both loved their clubs (Madjeski loved his hometown more than football but it is the same point) but both have stopped investing because football clubs are selfish bottomless pits. And they are both getting plenty of stick now, rightly or wrongly.

 

My main point is warning against believing that this whole venture is football altruism where a billionaire is throwing money at Saints just for fun with no expectation of any return beyond the sporting.

 

He is enjoying going to the matches I am sure but I would also suggest the businessman in him enjoys the idea of delivering a stable Premier League football club and then selling that on at a profit within the decade. That, for me, would be his ultimate prize. After all, great businessmen know when to get out.

 

ML seems sensible, honest and is doing wonders for us, long may it continue. But I will always think that he will want to realise his investment one day, and I am perfectly happy with that.

 

Me too. I am enjoying supporting the club and the people running it more than at any time in the past decade. There is an honesty and an integrity to it that has been lacking these past few years.

[Junior Mullet]

Oh, I'm enjoying the ride alright....

 

 

 

I share Delldays' concerns but I don't believe that ANY football club can sustain the level of wages were seeing at the moment. Not one Premier league club could compete if Sky and chairmen's money was taken out of the equation and they had to rely on bums on seats.

 

The players expectations would simply be reduced and they would be payed less. Some of the stars may go and play in different countries if there was money there. Simple supply and demand economics. Personally I am all for the players getting the lions share of the spoils from modern day football - they are after all the stars of the show.

[the saint in winchester]

maybe it is me in that dont think I could face saints going into meltdown financially...again

 

but everywhere we look we worry, snipe and point the finger at football in general consuming itself...in every league there are teams in the crap financially and now it seems some teams are going to pay for it..

 

we do worry, and rightly...then on the other hand we are applauding the signing of fonte (who would not be excited)..I mean, how many clubs in league 1 in recent years spend this sort of money to bring a player who is supposed to be "way too good" for league 1...then it seem (by so many sources) we are going for stock..again, another player "way too good for league 1"..

 

 

whilst other league 1 clubs are picking players up for peanuts..

people will say "pardew is building"..he is, but that does not make the finances look any different...we are in the pocket of one man..

 

I simply cannot believe that our spending this season in transfers, wages and (sadly) agents is matched by our incomings..

 

I just hope that in 5 years down the line (or when ever) we are not paying the same price as we are starting to see at other clubs

 

 

dont think this is a moan, just a a slight concern with all the talk of MORE players coming....

 

Actually, DD, I share your concern and responsible fans should. As you say, we are relying on the wallet of one man, and if he needs to withdraw his funding (for any reason) we don't want to be left in meltdown. The chaps down the road know all about that - first Mandaric folds up, then Gaydamak comes and goes, now some shady Al-someone ... they don't know where the money is. So yes, financial prudence (as PM Brown would exhort) is the way forward. Let's not go mad with high wages and long contracts. Slow steady growth please, rather than throwing huge money at it.

[Torrent Of Abuse]

I share Delldays' concerns but I don't believe that ANY football club can sustain the level of wages were seeing at the moment. Not one Premier league club could compete if Sky and chairmen's money was taken out of the equation and they had to rely on bums on seats. Football has indeed gone mad and is a rich man's plaything, even your a Man Utd fan or a Saints fan, a Liverpool fan or a Skate.

 

In regards to this thread, I'd argue why didn't Pompey learn from OUR mistakes? I have no sympathy for a club and set of fans who mocked us, ridiculed us and savoured our fall from grace and didn't learn one single thing from it.....

I disagree. Pompey's fall from grace is very different from our own. Our great sin was the mortgage for St. Marys. Those payments proved a millstone around our neck which we could not afford simply because Liebherr is the first owner in our entire history to have any significant amount of money to invest.

 

If, as with Saints, your mortgage consumes a large part of your income every month then you have to hope that you can keep your other spending down and still keep the money coming in. Football, however, is a business where your income depends very heavily on that other spending. You ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO keep investing money just to keep up with every other team. We didn't have enough money to cover those necessary player signings and one bad season did us in. We'd had bad seasons before but the three managers in a season was the fatal blow. And it was all the board's fault. Then we had the double whammy of having lost our chief income. As anyone swept away by debt knows, that was game over. At that point we were doomed to be a poor Championship side until the mortgage was paid up. The arrival of Wilde et al, and Lowe's second tenure took that slender hope and further squashed it.

 

Pompey's demise by contrast is one of immense debt drawn up with no conceivable plan to add real value to the club. All money was spent on wages and signing on fees. NOTHING real on tangible remains after £60m of spending. And they are STILL borrowing.

 

To compare the two situations is like comparing one man who took a mortgage which was slightly too big, struggled, made some bad decisions, lost his job, then his home, ending up on the streets to someone who won millions on the lottery, bought fast cars and a mansion, lost them all within a few years and who now goes back to the casino because he can't accept that the ride is over. They are similar only in that they are both broke. Behind that you have the subtle difference of those who actually tried to pay their debts and failed against those who seemingly refuse to pay because that's something other people do.

[JibMcdo]

Actually, DD, I share your concern and responsible fans should.

 

I disagree. Responsible fans should leave it up to the highly capable Liebherr and Cortese. They are no mugs, they know exactly what they are doing. Fans should have trust in our hierachy now and not "worry" about our expenditure.

[Window Cleaner]

I disagree. Responsible fans should leave it up to the highly capable Liebherr and Cortese. They are no mugs, they know exactly what they are doing. Fans should have trust in our hierachy now and not "worry" about our expenditure.

 

 

 

Neither are many of the people running Premiership clubs but if you read what David Sullivan has to say about their finances it is quite disturbing.

Edited 12 January, 2010 by Window Cleaner

[Torrent Of Abuse]

Surely the issue here is debt rather than spending. We all assume that our spending will be the end of us - which I doubt. By all accounts (and I would urge us all to keep checking this with the club) our growth is being driven by purchases made through Liebherr's own funds - NOT DEBT. if Liebherr was to sell tomorrow, he could conceivably want £20m for the club but it would be a debt free club. The danger would be in if the buyers raised the money to buy the club through a loan (a leveraged buyout). It would have NOTHING to do with how much or how little Liebherr had spent. In fact, if we are talking about sober lessons learned from our time in the admin wilderness, do not forget that we almost were bought out by Pinnacle whilst our club was virtually worthless - and they gave every impression of being run on debt, very much as our blue-nosed friends are now. Having low wages and cheap players was no guarantee of being bought out by reliable owners then.

 

I feel as long as Liebherr owns us, we will be ok - but we will have to be careful who our next owners will be and that has NOTHING to do with the size of our club. Remember that even Liverpool and Manchester United are paying the price of being owned by people who do not actually have the money to own them outright but who rely on loans. Apparently Man Utd have loans in the realm of £600m, a sizeable portion of which are paying 10% interest. Selling Ronaldo merely offset the interest payments and gave them a profit this year. It's not how many players they have or what they are earning that is really killing them but how they are owned. For that I give thanks for Markus -but let's face it, he can take us to the Premiership and leave us in strife with a new owner but it's no different or worse than being left with a bunch of tyre kickers in charge in League 1.

[Junior Mullet]

 

I'm also slightly concerned that Pardew appears (and I realise I don't know what is happening behind the scenes) to be going for the big chequebook, buy from the division above approach in this window and has shown little in the way of scouting in league 2 or below. Unless of course there are no top talent available down there.

 

Who do you think we could get for £1.2 million from Div 2 that is as good as Fonte, has the necessary experience of the CCC needed to fit our vision of where the team is going and who has been playing regularly against opponents as good as or better than the ones faced by Saints in Div 1?

 

24 Div 2 teams. Average 2 starting CBs per team = 48 players to choose from. How many do you think would be good enough?

 

For me it's a no brainer. We are and should be buying players that are of a good (if not excellent) CCC standard. There simply aint many of those in Div 2 and those that are in Div 2 are probably no cheaper than those that already have a track record in the CCC.

[Window Cleaner]

Who do you think we could get for £1.2 million from Div 2 that is as good as Fonte, has the necessary experience of the CCC needed to fit our vision of where the team is going and who has been playing regularly against opponents as good as or better than the ones faced by Saints in Div 1?

 

24 Div 2 teams. Average 2 starting CBs per team = 48 players to choose from. How many do you think would be good enough?

 

For me it's a no brainer. We are and should be buying players that are of a good (if not excellent) CCC standard. There simply aint many of those in Div 2 and those that are in Div 2 are probably no cheaper than those that already have a track record in the CCC.

 

 

I think that if you look at our goals against column compared to that of Leeds and Colchester you'll see why AP puts such a premium on really good CHs.We are conceding too many goals,what's the point of Lambert and the midfield busting their butts to score against the better defences if you have donkeys giving them away at the other end twice as fast.