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No one worried at the level of spending..?


Thedelldays

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Daniel Levy just has the same old Premeirship chairman to meet, year in, year out.

 

Mr Cortesse and Mr Liebherr have many years of meeting chairman at ever improving stadiums left...

 

League One chairman

Championship chairman

Premiership chairman

European chairman

 

Will keep them occupied for many years! ;)

But what will happen in August 2013 when there is nothing left to live for :confused:

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'Originally Posted by Whitey Grandad

An associate of mine is friendly with Daniel Levy at Tottenham. he said that the first two years were fun, meeting other chairmen and all that stuff. Then it all started to get a bit repetitive.'

 

He's going to be pretty busy sorting out the administration that follows saggy the bankrupter around fairly soon! :-)

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I'd be more concerned if they had only bought 1st team players. Correct me if I'm wrong but they are already investing in the infrastructure of the club which will in turn bring better youngsters to the club and so on.

 

ML & NC know what they are doing they've been doing it long enough. Anyone care to work out what % of ML's personal wealth he has actually spent (I can't be arsed)? Oh and when you do apply a % to his billions as he would have earned interest on that (which probably equates to somewhere near what he has spent).

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Let's remember that ML and NC don't love Saints like we do (I don't expect them to), they are business people and at the moment are making calculated punts.

 

 

They came here as business people, but who is to say that they not might go native, as it were and grow to love the club as we do?

 

Granted, they have no roots in the local area as such, although NC is living down here and ML visiting frequently, so their affinity to us is different to that felt by most of us. But then again, they have something that none of us do, they actually own the club. It might be just a pure financial speculation, but perhaps it is also a rich man's toy. If the latter, then already the feelings are less sanguine. A lot might also depend on what the club achieves under their stewardship. An element of pride would certainly be there if we started winning a cup or two, starting with the JPT. A sense of achievement if we gain promotion back to the Premiership and then the feelings grow that this is their baby and they grow reluctant to part with it.

 

Not beyond the bounds of possibility that this scenario could unfold.

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I may be being foolish by saying this but ...

 

He has 4 BILLION ...

not 50 million like pompey need, or 300 million like other clubs have ...still serious money, but our guy has four, yes four billion ...(some rumour closer to 5)

 

this really is small time for him, and he wouldn't be investing in the training facility's or appointing people like NC if it wasnt a project that he and his friend NC cared deeply about, yes im not thickle enough to think he's gonna be around forever, but i believe this is a project they care about ...besides, 1.5 million (what we seem to be signing championship players for) is so small time to him ...we are a rich man's folly.

 

also, NC come's from a banking background, he will be keeping an eye on things making sure the books aren't unfairly balanced one way or the other ...(i hope)

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I'd be more concerned if they had only bought 1st team players. Correct me if I'm wrong but they are already investing in the infrastructure of the club which will in turn bring better youngsters to the club and so on.

 

One of the first things NC sais that they were aiming to put the club in a position where it could support itself, without a yearly dip into ML's pockets. That should mean bringing top quality players through and keeping them, rather than the previous of ''train them up and ship them on''.

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Unlike 99% of football clubs, we have NO creditors. It is my understanding that the training ground and playing staff upgrades are being paid directly out of Mr Liebherrs back pocket and none are on finance.

 

The size of our squad now is massive, and needs addressing, even if they take a short term hit and release a few players... but thats more from a playing point of view than a financial one.

 

Mr Liebherr can spend as much of his hard earned cash as he wants as far as I am concerned.

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One of the first things NC sais that they were aiming to put the club in a position where it could support itself, without a yearly dip into ML's pockets. That should mean bringing top quality players through and keeping them, rather than the previous of ''train them up and ship them on''.

 

Exactly.

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I think TDD makes some valid points.

 

Let's remember that ML and NC don't love Saints like we do (I don't expect them to), they are business people and at the moment are making calculated punts.

 

My concern is just how much profit can ML make from us being a Premier league side? Thats even if we get there any time soon. I mean if we do get there will he just take the TV money and no longer invest? I reckon he must see opportunitly outside of the team and in city business as well.

 

My hope is that they both with fall in love with Southampton and never want to leave.

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No one is doubting that Markus has the money, but TDD has raised an interesting point. One of the weaknesses of being owned by a single person is that we won't necessarily get to view the accounts (unless ML or NC decide to release them). So we won't necessarily know if ML is funding these transfers out of his own pocket, it is being funded by the club as a going concern or we are funding this through debt.

 

Now I'm sure things will be okay given ML's previous record of developing his businesses without using debt but I think it is right to raise a little concern given where we have come from. It might also stop some people posting in the manner that they have on Doncasters 606 forum on the BBC - have they forgotten where we were less than 12 months ago?

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No one is doubting that Markus has the money, but TDD has raised an interesting point. One of the weaknesses of being owned by a single person is that we won't necessarily get to view the accounts (unless ML or NC decide to release them). So we won't necessarily know if ML is funding these transfers out of his own pocket, it is being funded by the club as a going concern or we are funding this through debt.

 

Now I'm sure things will be okay given ML's previous record of developing his businesses without using debt but I think it is right to raise a little concern given where we have come from. It might also stop some people posting in the manner that they have on Doncasters 606 forum on the BBC - have they forgotten where we were less than 12 months ago?

 

This is untrue. All companies must file accounts.

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I'm sure that you are right but I'm sure I read on here somewhere that those accounts need to go to HMRC and because we are not a PLC they do not need to become public as PLC's accounts do.

 

All company accounts filed are available from Companies House to anyone with the inclination to get hold of them!

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Not of the questions asked in the OP.

 

Saints got into trouble last time because they had a large mortgage on the stadium and an overdraft. That just won't happen under Liebherr. Saints haven't overspent imo on any player so far.

 

We got into trouble because of cashflow problems due to wages.

 

If you think we're operating a wage bill commensurate with long-term League One status then I suggest you're mad. I don't happen to think it will be a problem as we will probably get promoted and Liebherr is happy to finance it but if he stops we would see the urgent need to prune the wage bill again. So, it's a perfectly valid line of enquiry but not an immediate concern IMO.

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I think we have to be careful about not confusing transfer gossip with reality. Lambert cost a lot but he is already worth double. James, Lallana, Morgan, and Hammond would all bring in decent fees. From what I can see the club is operating a transfer policy that increases the net worth of the company. What is also clear is that some of the deadwood needs to be cleared out. For a league 1 club the squad size is quite big and that obviously needs to change. I guess Cortese views that as baggage from the initial purchase and contracts are being run down.

 

Marcus is a very successful business man and I suspect he wants Saints to bring in as good a return as his other businesses. With no debt the club can easily support itself.

 

Gates of 20,000 three times a month will bring in a million at an average of £17 per ticket, Add TV money sponsorship, catering and merchandise and you have a very viable business. 40 players on an average of £2k per week gives a wage bill of £400000 lets say £600,000 with all employees included. The one thing old Rupes had right was a plan to diversify and grow the business.

 

I don't think we'll ever see massive high earners at St Marys again but I do think the club will be a big player again. I get the distinct impression that there is a cold wind blowing in football. Portmouth will probably be first to fall but Wigan, Hull, and Bolton are all in the same boat. Palace, Watford and Cardiff are already in trouble and I bet there will be others. Coming through are lean well run clubs Leeds, Saints, Forest, and Norwich as well as well run smaller clubs such as Doncaster Rovers. The established order in England is being challanged and thankfully Saints are on the right side for once.

 

I wonder if England can still sustain four professional leagues. League 2 is disintegrating and is on a par with the conference and as we know all too well the lower end of Div 1 is pretty desperate. If Saints make the Premiership in five years I wonder what it will look like.

 

Anyway we've endured more than our fair share of pain in recent years lets enjoy this for a while.

 

Macca

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Personally I think the level of spending you are seeing at the moment is down to what has been achieved since the start of the season,if we hadn't done so well and put ourselves in a strong position for a possible promotion,I think they would have held off spending until the summer but as there is a possibility for a push up to a playoff position I think they are going to give it a good go and try and get promoted this season.

 

Going back to the op,this time last year I would have been extremely worried about spending money but as we are now virtually debt free and mortgage free,the crowds are up and there is no infighting between major shareholders then I think we should enjoy the ride,if the owners want to lavish the cash on their plaything then who are we to complain. This is a sustainable project, unlike trying to get Notts County into the Prem or Man City to win the League.

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I think the clubs finances (although infinitely healthier than they were I'm happy to say) are nevertheless still a matter for some legitimate concern . What would happen for instance if Markus Liebherr (God forbid) were to fall under the wheels one of his family's enormous diggers tonight and the cash tap was suddenly turned off as a result ?

 

I don't know - I don't think anybody does .

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Delldays is right to question the spending, we are clearly not spending at a sustainable level but if Marcus has plans to reach the Prem it makes sense to run it at a loss at this stage, and even whilst in the Championship.

 

We are a Billionaires plaything so have to just sit back and enjoy the ride, it could easily end up like Pompey though, it's just a risk you have to take to get anywhere these days.

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you are right...but I guess, we should just enjoy the ride whilst it lasts

 

Leibherr/Cortese don't seem like the kind of people who have been reckless with their financial planning in the past, why should we question them now? There is a concern there, but I don't think that we need to worry for a while - if it takes us 3 years+ to get out of League 1 then we might need to worry...

Edited by Thorpe-le-Saint
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I'm not really worried about our level of spending, for several reasons:

 

1. We have Markus. Obviously he isn't going to be here forever, but for now he is. If and when he leaves, THEN we'd have to worry about our spending.

 

2. We are spending pretty much within our means. Yes we have spent nearly £3m this season, but have nearly four times the gate receipts of a team like Oldham or Wycombe. That adds up to nearly £6m in extra gates.

 

3. We are investing in assests, not so much in massive wages like Pompey, Man City or to a lesser extent Notts Co. If the worst comes to the worst, we can sell the players we've bought, plus a few more. Lambert and Fonte wont have decreased in value since we bought them, unless Fonte turns out to be a complete dud, which I doubt.

 

4. We're trying to get back into the Prem which, IMO, is where we belong. That probably sounds arrogant, but when you look at some of the tin-pot clubs in the Prem, you do think clubs like Leeds, Newcastle, Saints and Norwich belong there instead. I don't think we would end up making a massive loss just staying in the division, unlike Pompey and a couple of other clubs.

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Debt is the only thing we need to worry about. As long as the club remains debt free, financially it will be fine.

 

Take this as a senario, ML spends millions of his own cash, getting us to/staying in the Prem in a hugely exciting 5-10 years. Once there, he has enough, packs it in and sells for 80m, in all likelyhood getting his investment back + a small profit (based on how little he initially bought the club for). He sells to a less wealthy consortium, but leaves no debt.

 

At that point Saints probably have too high a wage costs and will need to sell some of their big stars to stay in the black.

Lets hope we as Saints fans remember, we need to maintain the financial wellbeing of the club (even if it means relegation), rather than demanding player investment based on debt.

I don't really fancy almost losing the club a 2nd time.

 

For the moment we should all massively enjoy being the club signing exciting players and only start to worry if any of it is built on debt.

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I think TDD makes some valid points.

 

Let's remember that ML and NC don't love Saints like we do (I don't expect them to), they are business people and at the moment are making calculated punts.

 

But the challenge with English football is you can get promoted to the CCC and you won't make money - if we are buying £1m players now, the expectation is to be buying £3m players then.

 

.

 

And it is true that you can make money in the CCC. Weren't Sheffield Utd something like the 5th or 6th most profitable club in the country last year, despite being in the CCC?

 

I agree with everything on this thread, the long term future of the club depends on the plan for ML realising the value of the assets.

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maybe it is me in that dont think I could face saints going into meltdown financially...again

 

but everywhere we look we worry, snipe and point the finger at football in general consuming itself...in every league there are teams in the crap financially and now it seems some teams are going to pay for it..

 

we do worry, and rightly...then on the other hand we are applauding the signing of fonte (who would not be excited)..I mean, how many clubs in league 1 in recent years spend this sort of money to bring a player who is supposed to be "way too good" for league 1...then it seem (by so many sources) we are going for stock..again, another player "way too good for league 1"..

 

 

whilst other league 1 clubs are picking players up for peanuts..

people will say "pardew is building"..he is, but that does not make the finances look any different...we are in the pocket of one man..

 

I simply cannot believe that our spending this season in transfers, wages and (sadly) agents is matched by our incomings..

 

I just hope that in 5 years down the line (or when ever) we are not paying the same price as we are starting to see at other clubs

 

 

dont think this is a moan, just a a slight concern with all the talk of MORE players coming....

 

Our owner is doing what many owners are not - honouring his promises and backing the club in players and infrastructure.

 

Why be woried? We're one of the wealthiest clubs in the Football League and Premiership.... our investments are peanuts compared to Premiership ones from owners far less wealthy.

 

We are well on the way up - great owner.

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Unlike 99% of football clubs, we have NO creditors. It is my understanding that the training ground and playing staff upgrades are being paid directly out of Mr Liebherrs back pocket and none are on finance.

 

The size of our squad now is massive, and needs addressing, even if they take a short term hit and release a few players... but thats more from a playing point of view than a financial one.

 

Mr Liebherr can spend as much of his hard earned cash as he wants as far as I am concerned.

 

I agree about the squad size - time to sack the younger players IMHO.

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And it is true that you can make money in the CCC. Weren't Sheffield Utd something like the 5th or 6th most profitable club in the country last year, despite being in the CCC?

 

I agree with everything on this thread, the long term future of the club depends on the plan for ML realising the value of the assets.

 

 

It can be done, but Sheff Utd had to get into and then relegated from the Prem to bring that about - that would have been their second year of £11m parachute payments.

 

And I am sure you can be a profitable CCC club without parachute payments but then not at the same time as pushing for promotion in the short term. I doubt, say, Forest are going to return a profit for this season. But they might get promoted.

 

But yep, you're right, this is about ML realising the value of his assets, which for him and us means establishing a Premier League club. So great!

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It can be done, but Sheff Utd had to get into and then relegated from the Prem to bring that about - that would have been their second year of £11m parachute payments.

 

And I am sure you can be a profitable CCC club without parachute payments but then not at the same time as pushing for promotion in the short term. I doubt, say, Forest are going to return a profit for this season. But they might get promoted.

 

But yep, you're right, this is about ML realising the value of his assets, which for him and us means establishing a Premier League club. So great!

 

OK I'd forgotten about that minor detail. the premier league it has to be!

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Yorkie we are a BILLIONAIRES toy. And yes its irrelevent to a MULTI-BILLIONAIRE! ;)

 

The whole point is, it IS relevant: that's why he's so rich. Those of you old enough to remember Reggie Perrin's boss "I didn't get where I am today by ...." fill in your own line. I get the feeling that this regime have a much better handle on costs, cash flows, and general financial competence than the previous lot and, yes, are spending a bit of their own money. I don't think they'll overpay on wages, either, or else will structure payments based on crowds, success etc.

 

I suspect they are pleased with the progress of crowds this season. I know Boxing Day is a bad example, but nearly 31k in the third division!! Plus we are in cups where the crowds have fared _very_ favourably with those for Premiership clubs (look at Boro-Citeh for example).

It'll be interesting the impact of new signings. I see we've added another 1200 half-season tickets, and there's a buzz about the place.

 

I wonder if herr Liebherr has a private executive jet (probably not given what I've written above), but if yes maybe I could hitch a lift over from Switzerland.. it all helps the crowd figures..

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I don't think two or maybe three million pound signings and a couple of smaller ones is going to be ruinous. If we were spending £5 mill on a player or Sol Campbell appears on £40k/week, then I'd be worried. But without the mortgage, with most of the dross off the wage bill and having spent virtually nothing on transfers since Burley's splurge two years ago I don't think it is anything to fret about. Charlton & Norwich would have spent much more than that last year in the CCC

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While it's not the healthiest way to look at things, the more class players we sign, the more assets we have running around the pitch if the worst were to happen again.

 

My biggest concern of the spending (and when I say biggest, it's not big at all but bigger than the others) is that we could stump the development of the academy players. In the Premiership the youth rarely got a look in, with more players being signed, we could be seeing the last youth players in the first team as being Lallana and James.

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I'm not really worried about our level of spending, for several reasons:

 

1. We have Markus. Obviously he isn't going to be here forever, but for now he is. If and when he leaves, THEN we'd have to worry about our spending.

 

2. We are spending pretty much within our means. Yes we have spent nearly £3m this season, but have nearly four times the gate receipts of a team like Oldham or Wycombe. That adds up to nearly £6m in extra gates.

 

3. We are investing in assests, not so much in massive wages like Pompey, Man City or to a lesser extent Notts Co. If the worst comes to the worst, we can sell the players we've bought, plus a few more. Lambert and Fonte wont have decreased in value since we bought them, unless Fonte turns out to be a complete dud, which I doubt.

 

4. We're trying to get back into the Prem which, IMO, is where we belong. That probably sounds arrogant, but when you look at some of the tin-pot clubs in the Prem, you do think clubs like Leeds, Newcastle, Saints and Norwich belong there instead. I don't think we would end up making a massive loss just staying in the division, unlike Pompey and a couple of other clubs.

 

I'd say that's spot on. It's worth recalling that last season a break-even attendance figure of about 17,000 was bandied about; and that was when we had the stadium loan, an overdraft and several heftily-paid players. This season we have no stadium loan or overdraft to service and most of the high earners have gone. Plus, of course, we're getting gates well in excess of that 17,000.

 

As we move up through the divisions our costs will increase; however, I think it will be the aim of both ML and NC to ensure that those costs are matched by an increase in income, not by pouring ML's money into a hole.

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When ML bought us he must have budgeted 12m or whatever for the purchase, and another budget of (complete guess) 20-30 m to get us back to the PL.

 

He bought us on the cheap and knows he has to invest to reap the rewards of getting to the PL.

 

 

And he will get some tasty tax breaks on his losses/ investments.

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Personally I think it's a damn good bit of business.

 

Bought the club for a song, great prospects for a rise through the ranks, no stadium to build and a bloody big catchment area to capitalise on when we get there.

 

In five years time, we'll be the only club on the south coast hosting the world's superstars of football.

 

Good business.

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When ML bought us he must have budgeted 12m or whatever for the purchase, and another budget of (complete guess) 20-30 m to get us back to the PL.

 

He bought us on the cheap and knows he has to invest to reap the rewards of getting to the PL.

 

 

And he will get some tasty tax breaks on his losses/ investments.

 

Very true

 

 

With Careful Management Investment and some luck SFC maybe a nice little earner for ML/NC

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While it's not the healthiest way to look at things, the more class players we sign, the more assets we have running around the pitch if the worst were to happen again.

 

My biggest concern of the spending (and when I say biggest, it's not big at all but bigger than the others) is that we could stump the development of the academy players. In the Premiership the youth rarely got a look in, with more players being signed, we could be seeing the last youth players in the first team as being Lallana and James.

 

 

That is because (a) the best academy players were hardly ever given the chance to mature at Saints but sold on by Lowe as a commodity to 'bigger' clubs (because we could not afford to compete...and (b) the academy has suffered due to the running down of essential club functions such as the scouting team to bring in new talent.

 

There is so much repair work to be done on the whole infrastructure of the club still and in the case of young talent it will take even longer to sort out. The big test of our new regime will be when the best of the CURRENT youth team are ready to step up - will they be sold or gradually drafted into the 1st team in a manner similar to Walcott here (a little) and then at Arsenal?

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I suspect our wage bill is close to 100% of our turnover at the moment

 

 

No idea where you get that from - got any hard facts? My guess (based on AP's words) is that we've got room for another two players at least before that is the case. Then we've got some deadwood to shift including at least one bench sitter and very high earner in Thomas (possibly).

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I may be being foolish by saying this but ...

 

He has 4 BILLION ...

not 50 million like pompey need, or 300 million like other clubs have ...still serious money, but our guy has four, yes four billion ...(some rumour closer to 5)

 

 

I was under the impression his estimated wealth is between 2.2 - 2.5 billion, can anyone clarify?

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