Pompey or Saints - Is their current financial position worse than ours was?

[kwsaint]

Pompey's problem is the same as ours was this time last year - large debt, poorly run club, disillusioned players. Anyone buying the club would be taking on the existing debt. It's quite clear that the current owner isn't putting any of his money in - he's probably got more sense. In the same way that no-one would buy us in these circumstances, I can't see anyone taking on Pompey. They are likely to go into Administration and someone will then buy them for a lot less money and with no ongoing debt. Sound familiar? They will survive, but we will be passing them on the way up in the next season or two.

[docker-p]

I'm assuming Lowe had a little to do with it, I don't think the council sorted the whole package out plus numerous attempts before hand to find/fund a new stadium fell on deaf ears, yes Lowe had his faults but please don't berate him for something he had a hand in.

He had a hand in it, like the secretary who licked the envelope and stuck a stamp on, had a hand in it. But really SCC sorted it out after Lowe screwed up Stoneham.

[Matthew Le God]

Pompey's problem is the same as ours was this time last year - large debt, poorly run club, disillusioned players. Anyone buying the club would be taking on the existing debt. It's quite clear that the current owner isn't putting any of his money in - he's probably got more sense. In the same way that no-one would buy us in these circumstances, I can't see anyone taking on Pompey. They are likely to go into Administration and someone will then buy them for a lot less money and with no ongoing debt. Sound familiar? They will survive, but we will be passing them on the way up in the next season or two.

 

Big differences between the two...

 

1) Pompey's debt is alot bigger (maybe more than £60m in total)

2) Pompey's fanbase is alot smaller

3) Pompey don't have a large modern ground nor their own training ground

 

All these make a less attractive investment for any potential buyers.

[Thedelldays]

He had a hand in it, like the secretary who licked the envelope and stuck a stamp on, had a hand in it. But really SCC sorted it out after Lowe screwed up Stoneham.

screwed up stoneham

 

so the previous 15 years of trying were not a screw up..?

[lordswoodsaints]

And they still owe guydamak £32mil.

[docker-p]

1-4 now. Chants of "Sack the board", "Milan, there's only one Milan", "Where's all our money gone" and "You're not fit to run our club" have been ringing round FP this evening, quietly ignored by the Sky broadcast team.

 

Just as well they were playing Arsenal tonight; anything less than one of the 'Big Four' and the ground would have been half empty and there wouldn't have been anything 'ringing round FP' except tumble weed.

[SarniaSaint]

Personally I hope they disappear from the face of the earth.

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

When are the press going to realise that there is a pattern developing. Every club that Harry Redkrapp has managed have fallen into a dire financial situation. Bournemouth. West Ham. Saints. P*mpey. Look over your shoulders Spuds. You will be next!!!

[docker-p]

screwed up stoneham

 

so the previous 15 years of trying were not a screw up..?

Can you 'screw' something up if you didn't even try?

[CB Fry]

Can you 'screw' something up if you didn't even try?

 

 

Must be a different Southampton Football Club that spent decades looking for a new ground, or submitting plan after plan for extending the Dell, including expanding over Archer's Road and tunnelling underneath it etc. We'd been trying for decades.

 

Stoneham was an utter crock of shi te and the best thing that ever happened to Saints was not getting that glorified portacabin nowhere near the sodding city.

 

It's only the swivel-eyed every-single-thing-Lowe-ever-did-was-wrong bellends like Richmond who bleat on about Stoneham being our true spiritual home and what a tragedy we're not playing to packed houses of 25,000 there.

[docker-p]

Must be a different Southampton Football Club that spent decades looking for a new ground, or submitting plan after plan for extending the Dell, including expanding over Archer's Road and tunnelling underneath it etc. We'd been trying for decades.

 

Stoneham was an utter crock of shi te and the best thing that ever happened to Saints was not getting that glorified portacabin nowhere near the sodding city.

 

It's only the swivel-eyed every-single-thing-Lowe-ever-did-was-wrong bellends like Richmond who bleat on about Stoneham being our true spiritual home and what a tragedy we're not playing to packed houses of 25,000 there.

I agree with you in part. The best thing Lowe did was screw up his own plans for Stoneham.

 

All those 'plans' for expanding over the Archers, under the Milton etc etc etc were never actually costed and submitted plans, and happened before Lowe arrived. He alone decided we needed to move to Stoneham (a really crap idea in the first place) and then screwed that plan up by adding extra retail facilities etc. Thankfully SSC had a back up plan. God bless the Labour controlled council of the time.

[TopGun]

I agree with you in part. The best thing Lowe did was screw up his own plans for Stoneham.

 

All those 'plans' for expanding over the Archers, under the Milton etc etc etc were never actually costed and submitted plans, and happened before Lowe arrived. He alone decided we needed to move to Stoneham (a really crap idea in the first place) and then screwed that plan up by adding extra retail facilities etc. Thankfully SSC had a back up plan. God bless the Labour controlled council of the time.

 

A very fair point. If SMS killed RL's finances ultimately , as sure as hell Southampton and Eastleigh councils weren't getting involved in expensive and controversial green belt developments at Stoneham. Northam has proved more than adequate for Saints albeit no shopping mall extras next to the M27 that Rupes would have preferred no doubt.

[hypochondriac]

Pompey's problem is the same as ours was this time last year - large debt, poorly run club, disillusioned players. Anyone buying the club would be taking on the existing debt. It's quite clear that the current owner isn't putting any of his money in - he's probably got more sense. In the same way that no-one would buy us in these circumstances, I can't see anyone taking on Pompey. They are likely to go into Administration and someone will then buy them for a lot less money and with no ongoing debt. Sound familiar? They will survive, but we will be passing them on the way up in the next season or two.

 

No it isn't. Pompey do not own their own ground or the surrounding land. The also owe HMRC and other clubs. All of these things have to be paid in full if they want to play in the league and avoid any further points deductions. That's before we factor in the 15 million pound loan secured against their ground. I can't see anyone buying them should they go into admin.

[Micky]

Read online at the weekend that they are paying Utaka £80K PER WEEK.

 

UTTER UTTER MADNESS.

 

Whoever set up that deal, and approved it needs their head examined. Even if they survive this, the fall-out is going to bring some BIG casualties, as questions WILL be asked by the authorities.

 

'Hopefully'

 

No problem - thats only a quarter of a mil per month, chickenfeed given the huge number of fans that they can attract. Damn good business, damn good.... ummmm second thoughts maybe not eh....!

 

You do actually wonder, who the f u c k makes such cluster**** decissions dontcha...!

[Danny]

A very fair point. If SMS killed RL's finances ultimately , as sure as hell Southampton and Eastleigh councils weren't getting involved in expensive and controversial green belt developments at Stoneham. Northam has proved more than adequate for Saints albeit no shopping mall extras next to the M27 that Rupes would have preferred no doubt.

 

Don't forget, Stoneham had far more ancillary uses planned, such as an athletics stadium, five-a-side pitches, community pitches, tennis courts even. To support those key aspects of the development it needed extra commercial revenue, hence the reason for the cinema and shops being included.

 

St. Mary's had all of that stripped out and thus the extra sources of income were not needed, although I believe the reason SMS is 7,000 seats bigger that Stoneham is because dropping the community sport aspects of the development didn't quite offset the drop in revenue of the loss of the commercial side, so the club hoped that the extra seats and hospitality suites would sort that out.

 

No-one person made a mess of Stoneham - the three councils playing party politics are the key reason it didn't happen. Lowe made many mistakes, but his role in SMS being built (and Stoneham not being built) is not one.

[Gemmel]

Don't forget, Stoneham had far more ancillary uses planned, such as an athletics stadium, five-a-side pitches, community pitches, tennis courts even. To support those key aspects of the development it needed extra commercial revenue, hence the reason for the cinema and shops being included.

 

St. Mary's had all of that stripped out and thus the extra sources of income were not needed, although I believe the reason SMS is 7,000 seats bigger that Stoneham is because dropping the community sport aspects of the development didn't quite offset the drop in revenue of the loss of the commercial side, so the club hoped that the extra seats and hospitality suites would sort that out.

 

No-one person made a mess of Stoneham - the three councils playing party politics are the key reason it didn't happen. Lowe made many mistakes, but his role in SMS being built (and Stoneham not being built) is not one.

 

Much of what you say is correct and we are better off at St Marys, but lowe single handly fouked up Stoneham. He got lucky and got a second chance and should rightly be credited with th success of St Marys, but he was one of a few that made it happen

[SparkySaint]

I suspect they will go the same way as Luton.

 

I chuffin hope so

[SparkySaint]

Personally I hope they disappear from the face of the earth.

 

Likewise

[Torrent Of Abuse]

I think a stadium at Stoneham would probably have generated more income (via other revenue streams) than SMS which might have helped us deal with relegation. That relegation would probably have cone sooner though, given the lower income from marches. With Stoneham, maybe we would be a middle-ranking, mostly unambitious Championship side with RL still in charge.

 

So... SMS is the better option in my book. It's certainly the better option for an ambitious club with financial backing.

[Jimmy_D]

One other aspect where Saints were better off in the summer was that, while our previous owners might not have had the ability or the money to go about it the right way, they certainly wanted the best for the club.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks Pompey's current owners don't necessarily have the club's best interests at heart.

[LostBoys]

Avram Grant has said he does not know if the wages will be paid tomorrow.

 

This is the second consecutive month is it not?

 

Does this mean a ten point deduction?

[Torrent Of Abuse]

I do not wish P@mpey to go out of business but I do want their debt-fuelled party to be over and the hangover to begin.

 

The timing of the threat from the tax man is probably intended to focus P@mpey's minds on the transfer window. It's not for strengthening the side. Not this time. It's for selling players to pay the bills.

 

It looks like it's going to be a slow collapse into administration for the Blue Few. We know what it's like - but i think their fall will be much slower and more painful.

[St.Patrik]

From todays The Sun http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2788965/Portsmouth-boss-Avram-Grant-in-6m-fire-sale.html

[david in sweden]

interesting,their loss could be our gain,that would really rub salt in the wounds if each league had to promote an extra team and we were one of them.

 

Perhaps ML could buy the ground and turn it into a forcourt for his cranes.:-)

 

...or even buy up the land and build a tower block called..ST. MARY'S POINT,

or somthing equally suitable....? any other name suggestions ?

[david in sweden]

From todays The Sun http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2788965/Portsmouth-boss-Avram-Grant-in-6m-fire-sale.html

 

 

I was also wondering if Fred Dineage has been quite so c*cky with his snide comments on local TV recently..anyone ?

[saint_bert]

Wonder what crock of sh ite lies there spin their fans today.

 

A friend of mine, who is a skate, got very aggressive in a conversation with me yesterday.Never have I been so smug when coming back with responses

[Under Weststand]

Pompey's problem is the same as ours was this time last year - large debt, poorly run club, disillusioned players. Anyone buying the club would be taking on the existing debt. It's quite clear that the current owner isn't putting any of his money in - he's probably got more sense. In the same way that no-one would buy us in these circumstances, I can't see anyone taking on Pompey. They are likely to go into Administration and someone will then buy them for a lot less money and with no ongoing debt. Sound familiar? They will survive, but we will be passing them on the way up in the next season or two.

Totally different scenario Kwsaint we had a new stadium (with land not eligable to be built on) in place, also a decent training facility plus the farm. In other words we had something to sell off their ground is secured by Chainrai, Gaydamak owns the land next to nottarf all they have to sell is the playing squad, which most of the better players will be sold off next few days in a fire sale. Anyone comming in would need upwards of 30-40 million then another 60 to 100-million to get a stadium built. You could probably buy West Ham for 50 to 80 million decent fan base decent stadium far better option. Just an example there are far better options out there, Only a mega rich Pompey fan would consider buying them IMHO. So we were and our in a much better position at the same time line than Pompey are today.

[saint lard]

Avram Grant has said he does not know if the wages will be paid tomorrow.

 

This is the second consecutive month is it not?

 

Does this mean a ten point deduction?

 

I have it on fairly good authority that no staff have been paid when due thus far today.

That makes it 3 times in 4 months.

 

Gadymak has his say....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/dec/31/portsmouth-sacha-gaydamak-winding-up-order?

Edited 31 December, 2009 by saint lard

[Glasgow_Saint]

Gaydamak's needs to be held partly accountable for this mess - I like him!

[Michelle]

Avram Grant has said he does not know if the wages will be paid tomorrow.

 

This is the second consecutive month is it not?

 

Does this mean a ten point deduction?

 

3 failures to pay in one season equals 9 point deduction according to PL rules.

 

I'm half tempted to pop down and have a party outside FP.

[Tamesaint]

When Fry took us over I remember that he said that he was amazed how bad things were and that he was surprised not to have been called in earlier. Weston Saint also revealed on here that it had been a difficult job to get an administrator to take us on. Only Begbies would do it. The other firms were convinced that we were a goner.

 

But compare us then with Pompey now. No winding up orders had been presented on us. Prior to our administration we had always paid our staff. Lowe delayed our administration in a desperate bid to stave off the 10 point deduction that would have led to relegation. Pompey are doing the same now but they cannot deny gravity for ever. Administration is coming their way and when it comes it will be a knockout blow.

 

If Fry was surprised at how long we had survived pre administration, I am sure that if he was to be brought in at Pompey, he would be amazed at how long it has taken them to accept the inevitable.

[saint_bert]

When Fry took us over I remember that he said that he was amazed how bad things were and that he was surprised not to have been called in earlier. Weston Saint also revealed on here that it had been a difficult job to get an administrator to take us on. Only Begbies would do it. The other firms were convinced that we were a goner.

 

But compare us then with Pompey now. No winding up orders had been presented on us. Prior to our administration we had always paid our staff. Lowe delayed our administration in a desperate bid to stave off the 10 point deduction that would have led to relegation. Pompey are doing the same now but they cannot deny gravity for ever. Administration is coming their way and when it comes it will be a knockout blow.

 

If Fry was surprised at how long we had survived pre administration, I am sure that if he was to be brought in at Pompey, he would be amazed at how long it has taken them to accept the inevitable.

 

Hopefully Fry is bought in.

 

Denies a truely wealthy investor, and goes with a ramshackle, pish poor group led by a pompey legend.

[rooney]

There is so much debt at poopey now that the borrowing is feeding on itself. Nobody in their right mind will invest in this club now as once a writ is issued, other hitherto unknown creditors will come out of the woodwork. The Directors could be illegally trading knowing that these debts can never be repaid.The fradulent Lawyer who is also involved, could be classed a Shadow Director too if he is pulling the strings now and thus drawn in.

I doubt if an administator will be appointed, as there is little to administrate on a net asset basis. I "smell" the club is on the verge of liquidation which means the Secured Creditors, the Fixed Charge Holders, will get first pick, Preferential Creditors will be next (Tax, Vat, Nat Ins Contribs, wages next and then the Debenture Holders next leaving nothing for unsecured creditors, including shareholders I would suggest.

[beatlesaint]

When are the press going to realise that there is a pattern developing. Every club that Harry Redkrapp has managed have fallen into a dire financial situation. Bournemouth. West Ham. Saints. P*mpey. Look over your shoulders Spuds. You will be next!!!

 

 

Thats a very good point, but the press will only turn on their darling Harry if he becomes no use to them. So if the court case for taxes goes badly for him and he is locked up, loses his job and his famous "rent a gob" falls silent for a few months/years ( ) then they will turn on him, but not before.

[trousers]

I have it on fairly good authority that no staff have been paid when due thus far today

 

Horse's mouth or someone who knows one of the horses?

 

Game over (in terms of 9 points deduction) if the above is true, surely?

[up and away]

Originally Posted by CB Fry

Must be a different Southampton Football Club that spent decades looking for a new ground, or submitting plan after plan for extending the Dell, including expanding over Archer's Road and tunnelling underneath it etc. We'd been trying for decades.

 

Stoneham was an utter crock of shi te and the best thing that ever happened to Saints was not getting that glorified portacabin nowhere near the sodding city.

 

It's only the swivel-eyed every-single-thing-Lowe-ever-did-was-wrong bellends like Richmond who bleat on about Stoneham being our true spiritual home and what a tragedy we're not playing to packed houses of 25,000 there.

I agree with you in part. The best thing Lowe did was screw up his own plans for Stoneham.

 

All those 'plans' for expanding over the Archers, under the Milton etc etc etc were never actually costed and submitted plans, and happened before Lowe arrived. He alone decided we needed to move to Stoneham (a really crap idea in the first place) and then screwed that plan up by adding extra retail facilities etc. Thankfully SSC had a back up plan. God bless the Labour controlled council of the time.

 

So your master plan would have been to continue with Stoneham, irrespective that we could not afford it, Absolutely priceless!

[saint_bert]

So your master plan would have been to continue with Stoneham, irrespective that we could not afford it, Absolutely priceless!

 

Thats the Pompey way.

[Thedelldays]

So your master plan would have been to continue with Stoneham, irrespective that we could not afford it, Absolutely priceless!

if it means, blaming lowe for something..he would have run the club bankrupt

[saint lard]

Horse's mouth or someone who knows one of the horses?

 

Game over (in terms of 9 points deduction) if the above is true, surely?

 

Txt from a friend,who works in the hospitality,if you can call it that.

 

This seems to have been confirmed also by posters on forums.

[Wes Tender]

Don't forget, Stoneham had far more ancillary uses planned, such as an athletics stadium, five-a-side pitches, community pitches, tennis courts even. To support those key aspects of the development it needed extra commercial revenue, hence the reason for the cinema and shops being included.

 

St. Mary's had all of that stripped out and thus the extra sources of income were not needed, although I believe the reason SMS is 7,000 seats bigger that Stoneham is because dropping the community sport aspects of the development didn't quite offset the drop in revenue of the loss of the commercial side, so the club hoped that the extra seats and hospitality suites would sort that out.

 

No-one person made a mess of Stoneham - the three councils playing party politics are the key reason it didn't happen. Lowe made many mistakes, but his role in SMS being built (and Stoneham not being built) is not one.

 

Please get your facts right. The ancilliary facilities like the Sports complex would have been down to the Council, not the club. And Lowe's insistence on having the muliplex cinema and the huge out of town shopping development killed the project stone dead. So it is perfectly fair to put the blame squarely on Lowe's shoulders for the failure of Stoneham.

 

However, this is all water under the bridge and St. Mary's having been facilitated by Southampton City Council, has proved to be a decent venue for us and one of the tangible assets of the club that has attracted Markus Liebherr. OK, it might be easy for some who live on that side of the town to walk to, but it must not be overlooked that fans who live outside of the city boundaries would have found Stoneham easier to get to.

 

But another factor crosses my mind for the future. Had we proceeded to develop Stoneham, the spectre of ground-sharing with the Skates would be a much more realistic proposition with less concern for the policing.

 

Regarding the comparison between the Skates now and us earlier in the year, Pompey are very much worse off than us. As mentioned earlier, during the match agaisnt Arsenal, the chants from a large section of the crowd against their board was plainly audible, yet Sky chose to ignore it, preferring to tell the World how great their fans were. One way or another, whether through administration or bankruptcy, or via relegation because they will have to make further player sales and be without half of their squad because of the African nations cup, they will go down this season. Anybody who thinks that they would represent a good investment as a football club would not have made enough money as a businessman in the first place.

[Thedelldays]

please...leave the stoneham issue behind..it is all in the past..

 

I just love the way..in one project, lowe is blamed for every single thing that was bad and exempt from praise for anything remotely good..

 

just leave it to the pages of history

Edited 31 December, 2009 by Thedelldays

[John B]

Please get your facts right. The ancilliary facilities like the Sports complex would have been down to the Council, not the club. And Lowe's insistence on having the muliplex cinema and the huge out of town shopping development killed the project stone dead. So it is perfectly fair to put the blame squarely on Lowe's shoulders for the failure of Stoneham.

 

However, this is all water under the bridge and St. Mary's having been facilitated by Southampton City Council, has proved to be a decent venue for us and one of the tangible assets of the club that has attracted Markus Liebherr. OK, it might be easy for some who live on that side of the town to walk to, but it must not be overlooked that fans who live outside of the city boundaries would have found Stoneham easier to get to.

 

But another factor crosses my mind for the future. Had we proceeded to develop Stoneham, the spectre of ground-sharing with the Skates would be a much more realistic proposition with less concern for the policing.

 

Regarding the comparison between the Skates now and us earlier in the year, Pompey are very much worse off than us. As mentioned earlier, during the match agaisnt Arsenal, the chants from a large section of the crowd against their board was plainly audible, yet Sky chose to ignore it, preferring to tell the World how great their fans were. One way or another, whether through administration or bankruptcy, or via relegation because they will have to make further player sales and be without half of their squad because of the African nations cup, they will go down this season. Anybody who thinks that they would represent a good investment as a football club would not have made enough money as a businessman in the first place.

 

Yes you are right it is going to be difficult to find an owner at Pompey unlike at SFC where because of the Lowe years we had a modern Stadium and other facilities

[suewhistle]

I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks Pompey's current owners don't necessarily have the club's best interests at heart.

 

I think I'd think that even if I had a clue who really owns the club...

[brianoneils slidingtackle]

The playing staff have been paid but the non footballers have had their pay delayed by a week, (according to the Times), whose to say that they will get paid in a weeks time though ?

[Horley CTFC Saint]

I agree with you in part. The best thing Lowe did was screw up his own plans for Stoneham.

 

All those 'plans' for expanding over the Archers, under the Milton etc etc etc were never actually costed and submitted plans, and happened before Lowe arrived. He alone decided we needed to move to Stoneham (a really crap idea in the first place) and then screwed that plan up by adding extra retail facilities etc. Thankfully SSC had a back up plan. God bless the Labour controlled council of the time.

 

Wasn't Eastleigh a Conservative controlled council at the time expect they got on really well with Southampton's council then?!

[Scummer]

Wasn't Eastleigh a Conservative controlled council at the time expect they got on really well with Southampton's council then?!

 

As I recall there were 3 councils who had a say in the project. Southampton was run by Labour, Eastleigh the Lib Dems and Hampshire Conservative.

 

It's no wonder it never happened.......

[ottery st mary]

Yes you are right it is going to be difficult to find an owner at Pompey unlike at SFC where because of the Lowe years we had a modern Stadium and other facilities

 

Lowe reminds me of Fahim and Farag.......No money lots of Bullshiiiite and a waste of space. When coming to the reckoning day...Proved to have no clue re Finance or Football.

[OldNick]

Lowe reminds me of Fahim and Farag.......No money lots of Bullshiiiite and a waste of space. When coming to the reckoning day...Proved to have no clue re Finance or Football.

and the ones before nad after him (not including hte new people) were any better lol

[John B]

No money lots of Bullshiiiite and a waste of space. When coming to the reckoning day...Proved to have no clue re Finance or Football.

 

Just like you perhaps

 

Happy New Year

[beatlesaint]

Just like you perhaps

 

Happy New Year

 

Dont think thats necessary to be fair John B.

Ottery was only stating his point of view, and in fairness if the City Council hadn't come riding over the hill with a plan we wouldn't have St Marys now.

 

Lowe took a lot more credit than he should have for that.