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Pompey or Saints - Is their current financial position worse than ours was?

lordswoodsaints

By lordswoodsaints,
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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
You're right, it doesn't matter, although I have a Maths degree so do have a vague idea how loans work.

 

When Rupert left the first time, he said that the club had no overdraft, just the stadium mortgage. At some point this loan has been rescheduled, either to incorporate other debts, to increase the term or to go to interest only. The rescheduling enabled further borrowing at the bank, increased the overall debt and supported the play-off gamble of two years ago. When this failed, the club was financially stricken. The point that I was trying to make was that it was failure to live within our means that was the problem, not SMS, as the extra revenue should have paid for it.

 

Yes, and I repeat the point I made in the previous post. 95% of the fan base for the entirity of Lowe's reign were screaming for us to live completely beyond our means by spending lots of money we didn't have.

 

So in that context picking over the bones of the freaking mortgage on SMS is pretty futile, especially now.

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Thedelldays

Thedelldays

Posted
Posted
Yes, and I repeat the point I made in the previous post. 95% of the fan base for the entirity of Lowe's reign were screaming for us to live completely beyond our means by spending lots of money we didn't have.

 

So in that context picking over the bones of the freaking mortgage on SMS is pretty futile, especially now.

they did mate....then screamed to high heaven that the very time we did not live within our means (playoff season) we went foul..

 

now we are championing NOT living within our means..

 

 

football fans..we are all fickle...we could not care less as long as we win on a saturday

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NickG

NickG

Posted
Posted (edited)
they did mate....then screamed to high heaven that the very time we did not live within our means (playoff season) we went foul..

 

now we are championing NOT living within our means..

 

 

football fans..we are all fickle...we could not care less as long as we win on a saturday

 

....

Edited by NickG
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Torrent Of Abuse

Torrent Of Abuse

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they did mate....then screamed to high heaven that the very time we did not live within our means (playoff season) we went foul..

 

now we are championing NOT living within our means..

 

 

football fans..we are all fickle...we could not care less as long as we win on a saturday

 

Surely the problem was that none of our previous chairmen had any real money behind them. The only funds available were those coming in from gate receipts and Sky. Living beyond our means meant going into debt, hence the overdraft that took us into admin. If there is no debt and Leibherr is funding this spending, then it is a different matter altogether.

 

In fact a 5 year plan covering 2 promotions probably makes it certain that we will live beyond what is coming in through the normal income streams until we actually get to the Premiership. By then, the club could consider getting us on an even keel - which is exactly what NC has said is the stated aim.

 

So it IS a different situation and so I'm not too worried.

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NickG

NickG

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they did mate....then screamed to high heaven that the very time we did not live within our means (playoff season) we went foul..

 

now we are championing NOT living within our means..

 

 

football fans..we are all fickle...we could not care less as long as we win on a saturday

 

The difference now, is that we don't know are at what our "means" are.

 

Markus has said that he will give the club money - we don't know how much, but guess those spending it do!

 

We could be very comfortable within our means.

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SaintRichmond

SaintRichmond

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Posted
Probably not as I think it is a private matter and not really to do with PFC :(

 

Are you sure re that scenario ?

 

He WAS at Pompey when the alledged transgression(s) occured

 

In the past, Clubs in the lower leagues whose Board members have been found to be guilty of transgressions, have seen their TEAM (S) have points deducted, resulting in Relegations etc

 

The FA/FL are very good at punishing the SMALL Clubs, they NEVER punish "BIG" Clubs in the same Ratio IMHO

 

IE £10 K to Man Utd is relative to Ferguson's Chewing Gum supply for one month:)

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NickG

NickG

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Probably not as I think it is a private matter and not really to do with PFC :(

 

the chairman making a payment to the manager, which the manager says is part of his contract for player profits - private and nothing to do with pfc?

 

Don't think they would get punished though.

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SaintRobbie

SaintRobbie

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Posted
the chairman making a payment to the manager, which the manager says is part of his contract for player profits - private and nothing to do with pfc?

 

Don't think they would get punished though.

 

Exactly, I think it should attract a penalty... f'sure! :)

 

Just gets deeper and deeper for Pompey. They're doing a Leeds. Spent too much outside their means. Our demise was not quite the same - it was mismanagement gross mismanagement. We are rebuilding well within our means. Strong. Well provisioned with infrastructure as well as a backer honouring his word. What's more, first time for a while that we've had some managerial stability.

 

:)

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derry

derry

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Posted

We have no interest payments to make and no mortgage payments to make. Crowds are up, players salaries are lowering as we get shot of the highly paid players, so we are in a pretty good position to finance a lot of our spending, I believe the mortgage payments were circa £2m a year on their own.

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OldNick

OldNick

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Posted
the chairman making a payment to the manager, which the manager says is part of his contract for player profits - private and nothing to do with pfc?

 

Don't think they would get punished though.

What surprises me is that they have found only 1.

I suspect these people have bank accounts in many places and this was just an oversight that it was transparent.

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JRM

JRM

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Posted
We have no interest payments to make and no mortgage payments to make. Crowds are up, players salaries are lowering as we get shot of the highly paid players, so we are in a pretty good position to finance a lot of our spending, I believe the mortgage payments were circa £2m a year on their own.

 

 

this is a very good point. Liverpool spent more last season paying interest on their loans than on transfers. If all of the cash was available for transfers they might have won the league..........

 

so IF Liebherr had borrowed to buy the club, then used the clubs income to pay off the debt, we would not be able to also afford to make signings like we are now.

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Joensuu

Joensuu

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they did mate....then screamed to high heaven that the very time we did not live within our means (playoff season) we went foul..

 

now we are championing NOT living within our means..

 

 

football fans..we are all fickle...we could not care less as long as we win on a saturday

 

It's not like we have any say in the matter.

 

I won't be concerned while Liebherr is putting his own money into the club, so long as it is gifted, and not loaned. I will begin to be concerned once we are back in the Premiership if Liebherr starts looking to offload us onto someone less responsible.

 

At the moment it is in ML's own interests to gift his own money to the club. If he bought the club for status, his own gifted cash will buy him more status; if (as is more likely) he bought the club for a cash return, then the 10-15 million it will cost him to re-gain Premier status, will give him an asset worth 60-70 million, for which he only paid say £30million... 100% profits.

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Fowllyd

Fowllyd

Posted
Posted
Sounds like a song lyric. 'I'd rather be a scummer than a skate, yes i would`

Can't think of the song or artist though.

 

It's by Simon and Garfunkel, but I can't remember its title. Think it may be something in Spanish, with the subtitle "I'd rather be". I'd look it up, but sadly I just can't be arsed.

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EFM

EFM

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Posted
Sounds like a song lyric. 'I'd rather be a scummer than a skate, yes i would`

Can't think of the song or artist though.

 

I thought it just came from a friend who sings it on the way to every game!

 

But they were always scummers themselves in my youth. I've now shortened this to "scum" as, whilst scummers is used by nearly every club for their local rivals, "skates" is only used by us and to my considerable pleasure really REALLY ****es them off. "Scummer" is so unoriginal that it doesn't bother me remotely if they call us that :-)

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Deano6

Deano6

Posted
Posted
It's by Simon and Garfunkel, but I can't remember its title. Think it may be something in Spanish, with the subtitle "I'd rather be". I'd look it up, but sadly I just can't be arsed.

 

El Condor Pasa. It's a rip-off of a South American folk tune. You could hear the tune everywhere in Ecuador.

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted

Loved the fact that half of the comments on the newspaper article have been removed as being unsuitable. Were they comments from us, or were they from Skate fans cussing their directors/owners?

 

One was obviously from one of ours, as the response mentioned that we were in the third division and had only won one trophy. Well, they'll soon enough be in the third division themselves at this rate. The difference will be that by that time, we might well have switched places with them, but we will still have the good stadium and the wealthy owner, pray God, whereas they will still have the crap stadium and no prospect of them being an attractive investment to anybody with any real wealth and sense.

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gaz

gaz

Posted
Posted

Yeah, I recall listening to 5Live this morning and Gold said West Ham were in a dire situation and were in danger of running into financial problems, and needed help fast.

 

And they are in a much much better position than P*mpy.

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Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted
Yeah, I recall listening to 5Live this morning and Gold said West Ham were in a dire situation and were in danger of running into financial problems, and needed help fast.

 

And they are in a much much better position than P*mpy.

 

West Ham even after the takeover still have debts of £110 million.

 

These aren't as urgent to be paid as Pompey's, however West Ham still have larger debts.

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northam soul

northam soul

Posted
Posted

They surely will only get taken over now after administration. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy them with 60million of debt and no assets.

They will not be able to service that debt with gates of 19,000 on a good day and have no other major income stream of any use as the premier league will continue to hold any outstanding sky money.

On top of all that they will be in the championship next season so will only have parachute payments and probably gates of 15,000.

Their only saving grace is to go into admin and get the debt written off or most of it anyway.

Apparrently they owe 7.5 million in vat which is why the IR have put the winding up order on them.

The problem for the revenue is that they will not be able to get any of that money until they can either sell players which will not be until the summer as the court case is in february,or some poor bloke with a few billion spare bails them out. I know what id put my money on.

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Saint Fan CaM

Saint Fan CaM

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Posted
They surely will only get taken over now after administration. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy them with 60million of debt and no assets.

They will not be able to service that debt with gates of 19,000 on a good day and have no other major income stream of any use as the premier league will continue to hold any outstanding sky money.

On top of all that they will be in the championship next season so will only have parachute payments and probably gates of 15,000.

Their only saving grace is to go into admin and get the debt written off or most of it anyway.

Apparrently they owe 7.5 million in vat which is why the IR have put the winding up order on them.

The problem for the revenue is that they will not be able to get any of that money until they can either sell players which will not be until the summer as the court case is in february,or some poor bloke with a few billion spare bails them out. I know what id put my money on.

 

 

Pretty good summary. I'll simplify it - they're royally screwed! :D

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Panda

Panda

Posted
Posted
It's by Simon and Garfunkel, but I can't remember its title. Think it may be something in Spanish, with the subtitle "I'd rather be". I'd look it up, but sadly I just can't be arsed.

 

I rather be a hammer than a nail ...!

 

West Ham are the Hammers so P****y must be a nail. Was today's judgement the next nail in their coffin? Or is this all too cryptic? I don't know and I don't really care as long as we are OK.

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darren1

darren1

Posted
Posted

Am I right in thinking that there will be further difficulties if they go into admin?? From my recollection of when we were in Admin, was it not mentioned that HMRC NEVER take a cut on what they are owed and insist on FULL payment being covered on any sale of company or assets? This would mean PFC would need to be sold for a minimum of £11M just to cover HMRC and before any others get their cut even though they have no assets. If this is right (and I stand to be corrected), who in their right mind would buy the club? If this is the case there is a serious threat of there being no Po*****uth Football club by March????.............

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ringwood

ringwood

Posted
Posted

they need to go into admin just to try and see the season out if nothing else, but as they believe they are in the right Jacobs et al = L**e and the winding up order will be applied before they get a chance to get to admin.

 

can they apply for admin even if a winding up order is granted or is it too late then?

 

would Albert from Hustle be able to find the money?

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ringwood

ringwood

Posted
Posted

just had another thought didn't Saints get refused by the first administrator as they thought they wouldn't get a sale away and there was insuffient funds to run the club?

 

they may not have admin as an option, if the admin cannot run it due to lack of income?

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Chris Larkin

Chris Larkin

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Posted
just had another thought didn't Saints get refused by the first administrator as they thought they wouldn't get a sale away and there was insuffient funds to run the club?

 

they may not have admin as an option, if the admin cannot run it due to lack of income?

I believe that a judge will appoint an administrator, if that's the case. Saints ended up calling the administrators in ourselves, so we had a choice of who performed it. If they get wound up in court, then they won't have that choice, but an administrator will at least get appointed.

 

That's my analysis, although I may not be entirely correct.

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Rebel

Rebel

Posted
Posted

we went into Administration because Lowe tried to call the banks bluff on the overdraft limit and it didn't work

 

we got relegated anyway thanks to Lowe's Double Dutch policy and his 'youth policy'

 

the reason we got into financial trouble in the first place was down to Jim Hone spending the £7 million Wild promised and never delivered - even when he knew it was never going to turn up - in the vain hope that someone would buy the club

 

if Hone, Hoos and Oldknow had run the club within its means we would never have gone into administration

 

but then if Wild had delivered the £7 million investment he'd promised....

 

and if Lowe had left Crouch to run the club with Pearson as manager we'd never have gone into administration over a breached overdraft or got relegated on the pitch!

 

but you could argue that if Wild had left Lowe in control in the first place we'd have been run within our means and probably still be a mid table CCC club

 

the massive gap between our revenue and the money spent on players and wages over the 10 years Lowe was in charge has never been explained

 

it wasn't used to build a state of the art training ground and it wasn't used to pay-off the stadium mortgage so where did it go?

 

we could have taken the step forward after the cup final - but we didn't because the money went elsewhere - dividends, exec and non-exec director bonuses and expenses - and lots of other through lots of other completely legal routes into Lowe and his cronies pockets!

 

its no coincidence one of the companies used to do maintenance work on the stadium and training ground was owned by Lowe and his father

 

how many other similar things went on? how many directorships of companies connected to Saints did Lowe hold? St Mary's Catering? Saints FM?

 

I imagine Ray Ransom and SISU are doing something very similar at Coventry right now!

 

Portsmouth are in real trouble because they bought players with money they didn't have and they paid players massive salaries with money they didn't have - funded by loans taken out by Gaydamak

 

how come PFC now owe Gaydamak £28 million when he didn't actually put any real money into the club

 

it looks as though it was all done deliberately - winning the FA Cup was just an unwanted diversion - either for a property deal or for something dogdier

 

got to laugh though!

 

the FA and the Premier League need to take a long hard look at themselves though - as well as the PFA!

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Saint Fen

Saint Fen

Posted
Posted
I can see Pompey disappearing. It does happen. Up here in the Wetlands, Kings Lynn FC have just gone completely bust and that is the end of that. I know it is on a smaller scale but PFC could be one of the first bigger clubs to go to tha wall.

 

I totally agree with this, PFC will be the first massive club to go bust. No one in the right mind will buy them, they will probably reform but will have to start from the bottom.

 

I hope Storrie, Redknapp and Alexandre Gaydamak think the FA Cup was worth it.

 

There are massive between what happened us and them now, and that is we would have been fine in the premier league and even in the Championship if we hadn't had wasted big money gambling on promotion on transfers and wages. This was money we never had. Our Debt was minimal and only due to an Overdraft which couldn't be decreased quick enough. The Mortgage was covered against the Stadium.

 

Portsmouth have the biggest turnover they can generate through Sky and the players they sold. They paid too much in wages and Transfer Fees and will now pay the price, their future income was gambled on this as well. They are taking loans to pay wages and the debts are just getting bigger and bigger!

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Saint Fen

Saint Fen

Posted
Posted
we went into Administration because Lowe tried to call the banks bluff on the overdraft limit and it didn't work

 

we got relegated anyway thanks to Lowe's Double Dutch policy and his 'youth policy'

 

the reason we got into financial trouble in the first place was down to Jim Hone spending the £7 million Wild promised and never delivered - even when he knew it was never going to turn up - in the vain hope that someone would buy the club

 

if Hone, Hoos and Oldknow had run the club within its means we would never have gone into administration

 

but then if Wild had delivered the £7 million investment he'd promised....

 

and if Lowe had left Crouch to run the club with Pearson as manager we'd never have gone into administration over a breached overdraft or got relegated on the pitch!

 

but you could argue that if Wild had left Lowe in control in the first place we'd have been run within our means and probably still be a mid table CCC club

 

the massive gap between our revenue and the money spent on players and wages over the 10 years Lowe was in charge has never been explained

 

it wasn't used to build a state of the art training ground and it wasn't used to pay-off the stadium mortgage so where did it go?

 

we could have taken the step forward after the cup final - but we didn't because the money went elsewhere - dividends, exec and non-exec director bonuses and expenses - and lots of other through lots of other completely legal routes into Lowe and his cronies pockets!

 

its no coincidence one of the companies used to do maintenance work on the stadium and training ground was owned by Lowe and his father

 

how many other similar things went on? how many directorships of companies connected to Saints did Lowe hold? St Mary's Catering? Saints FM?

 

I imagine Ray Ransom and SISU are doing something very similar at Coventry right now!

 

Portsmouth are in real trouble because they bought players with money they didn't have and they paid players massive salaries with money they didn't have - funded by loans taken out by Gaydamak

 

how come PFC now owe Gaydamak £28 million when he didn't actually put any real money into the club

 

it looks as though it was all done deliberately - winning the FA Cup was just an unwanted diversion - either for a property deal or for something dogdier

 

got to laugh though!

 

the FA and the Premier League need to take a long hard look at themselves though - as well as the PFA!

 

Excellent post on how we got into trouble.

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SteveBish

SteveBish

Posted
Posted

I'm fairly sure that the inland revenue have given away their right to first call on any assets for payment in full and only count along side any other creditors when administration is called but PFC are worse than that if the winding up order goes through they just cease to exist, this is considerably worse than we were, and much though it's nice that the shoe is on the other foot I'm not sure I really want them to disappear altogether.

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