BA = British Leyland of the skies

[Johnny Bognor]

I was not aware of that correlation.

 

But yet again, that is an American chart and pretty much useless for British politics. Good for seeing where posters are relating to one another, no good for anything else.

 

I agree. I think the centre needs to move 2 or 3 squares to the left and down which would make it more relevant to the UK.

 

It is interesting to note that moderators of the forum are more authoritarian when compared to other posters.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I think that is absolutely spot on.

 

I think that the Trade Union movement was a necessity 30, 40, 50 years ago and you could argue that the trade union movement shaped much of the current employment legislation in this country and the EU. However, you cannot so much as fart in front of an employee without being in contravention of one thing or another. Therefore, for me, unions running companies and excerising their power through striking is for a bygone age.

 

Trade Unions do still serve a purpose on an individual level, providing support to employees and helping with representation at disciplinaries and the like and I have no problem with this.

 

It is the "we will not be dictated to" mentality that gets my goat. If any member of my staff comes out with crap like that, they will be drop kicked before you can say negotiated settlement.

 

Your last sentence scares me: Workers shouldn't be dicatated to, this isn't a fascist state! If you're using them to make money, they should obviously do what there jobs demand, but they shouldn't have to go 'above and beyond'. Workers create the wealth, the bosses squander it!

[Nineteen Canteen]

I was not aware of that correlation.

 

But yet again, that is an American chart and pretty much useless for British politics. Good for seeing where posters are relating to one another, no good for anything else.

 

Trouble is Johnny is wrong on both counts. I am no traitor because if you cannot be true to yourself and then what are any of us? Admittedly the questionnaire could have done with a few neutral answers and in some cases I was ambivalent about the answer and didn't want to answer either way.

 

As for a being a luvvie that simply came about a bit like British Politics. Strip the choice down to only 3 and really ony 2 parties with a chance of winning you don'tso much as chose who to vote for as the others simply discount themselves from the race.

[Verbal]

Which makes the secretary of BASSA's comments all the more bizarre and you would have to question if his agenda is in line with those of other BA employees.

 

' I could tell you a whole lot more, like being phoned this morning in the know to be informed that BA have sent my personal details to the tabloid press inviting them to investigate my private life for skeletons to be used in this Sunday's. That's BA for you. Like the time they sent a courier in a motorcycle helmet around my house at midnight with a suspension letter.'

 

With a comment like this extracted from post no. 140 you could perhaps argue IMO that Duncan Holley is in danger of making this a personal issue and perhaps not in the best interests of BA and it's staff.

 

The problem is, 19, BA higher-ups have a long track (and I think now criminal) record of harassment, false inducement, black propaganda, etc - not only against some of its employees and other airlines, but against a few of its complaining customers too. It is truly a sick company. So FF's suspicions are probably well founded, even if his line of argument about the strike isn't, imo.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Your last sentence scares me: Workers shouldn't be dicatated to, this isn't a fascist state! If you're using them to make money, they should obviously do what there jobs demand, but they shouldn't have to go 'above and beyond'. Workers create the wealth, the bosses squander it!

 

Absolute rubbish, there are winners and losers and good companies and bad companies and show me a bad company / loser and generally you will have a militant workforce and those who fight against changes as the bosses try to protect the health and wealth of the company for future generations. Any workforce from the top down that displays your mentality is doomed to failure and as antiquated as your proletariat thinking.

 

Do you think the NHS or the MOD for that matter would have wasted millions and millions of pounds on computer systems if they had not had some highly paid experts and project management gurus running the show? The civil service is as biggest comfort zone to its employess IMO as some of the Royal Mail and BA staff would like theirs to be.

[Nineteen Canteen]

The problem is, 19, BA higher-ups have a long track (and I think now criminal) record of harassment, false inducement, black propaganda, etc - not only against some of its employees and other airlines, but against a few of its complaining customers too. It is truly a sick company. So FF's suspicions are probably well founded, even if his line of argument about the strike isn't, imo.

 

And I accept that but two wrongs don't make a right and FF can't bemoan Unite for a PR disaster and start one of his own making. Given his comments he was coming across as a tad personal and that is when the battle is lost. If he already has the moral ground on BA's bosses as you suggest why give them some back?

[Nineteen Canteen]

I agree. I think the centre needs to move 2 or 3 squares to the left and down which would make it more relevant to the UK.

 

It is interesting to note that moderators of the forum are more authoritarian when compared to other posters.

 

Although not surprised by our resident fascist.

[View From The Top]

The problem is, 19, BA higher-ups have a long track (and I think now criminal) record of harassment, false inducement, black propaganda, etc - not only against some of its employees and other airlines, but against a few of its complaining customers too. It is truly a sick company. So FF's suspicions are probably well founded, even if his line of argument about the strike isn't, imo.

 

That would seem fair.

 

BA are hardly whiter than white and the Union made a huge mistake and it would appear they are both determined to fight to the end.

 

Unfortunately the end will the the end of the airline.

[Johnny Bognor]

Your last sentence scares me: Workers shouldn't be dicatated to, this isn't a fascist state! If you're using them to make money, they should obviously do what there jobs demand, but they shouldn't have to go 'above and beyond'. Workers create the wealth, the bosses squander it!

 

The "we will not be dictated to" was a reference (taken from the Union Handbook of Propaganda) to demonstrate the attitude of many a union activist.

 

It's all about attitude at the end of the day.

 

Here, the company directors (myself included) clean the toilets at the weekend on a roster (don't worry, we can afford a cleaner) and we do it for 2 reasons:

 

1) it demonstrates that we are prepared to get our hands dirty when required.

2) Means that from a moral perspective, we have no problem in asking any our staff to do ANYTHING.

 

It really works and is part of our philosophy that we should not ask of anyone, something we are not prepared to do ourselves.

 

Our work does involve putting in more than required and going beyond the call of duty and we never have to ask anyone to do so - they just do it, because that is the type of people they are. We hire people on their attitude every time and have honed our techniques to weed out those that are not of the right mindset.

 

When I retire, I will write a book about it.

 

As for your last comment, the private sector (both bosses and workers) create the wealth and the government squanders it.

[Nineteen Canteen]

The "we will not be dictated to" was a reference (taken from the Union Handbook of Propaganda) to demonstrate the attitude of many a union activist.

 

It's all about attitude at the end of the day.

 

Here, the company directors (myself included) clean the toilets at the weekend on a roster (don't worry, we can afford a cleaner) and we do it for 2 reasons:

 

1) it demonstrates that we are prepared to get our hands dirty when required.

2) Means that from a moral perspective, we have no problem in asking any our staff to do ANYTHING.

It really works and is part of our philosophy that we should not ask of anyone, something we are not prepared to do ourselves.

 

Our work does involve putting in more than required and going beyond the call of duty and we never have to ask anyone to do so - they just do it, because that is the type of people they are. We hire people on their attitude every time and have honed our techniques to weed out those that are not of the right mindset.

 

When I retire, I will write a book about it.

 

As for your last comment, the private sector (both bosses and workers) create the wealth and the government squanders it.

 

Like work whilst the boss plays about on a forum all day.

[View From The Top]

 

It really works and is part of our philosophy that we should not ask of anyone, something we are not prepared to do ourselves.

 

The very attitude that I adopt with my staff.

 

It doesn't have to be "them" and "us", just "we"

[Redondo Saint]

The very attitude that I adopt with my staff.

 

It doesn't have to be "them" and "us", just "we"

 

Agree completely.

 

However, most unions encourage the 'them and us' attitude as it provides greater strength to the union.

 

Unfortunately larger firms and organisations that have been unionised for many years will always have an adversarial relationship between management and union unless both accept without change everyone's job is on the line.

 

This year in the U.S there have been major strives forward in working practices in the airline and automotive industry because many major businesses (such as United Airlines and GM) were extremely close to bankruptcy.

[badgerx16]

[/b]

 

Do you think the NHS or the MOD for that matter would have wasted millions and millions of pounds on computer systems if they had not had some highly paid experts and project management gurus running the show? The civil service is as biggest comfort zone to its employess IMO as some of the Royal Mail and BA staff would like theirs to be.

 

Who will be from external, PRIVATE, consultancy companies like EDS, CAP GEMINI, CSC, BT, etc. The amount of money wasted on these so-called 'experts', is frightening. Also, PFI is a licence to print unaccountable money which is underwritten by the public purse.

[Hamilton Saint]

The very attitude that I adopt with my staff.

 

It doesn't have to be "them" and "us", just "we"

 

It's not "we", unless the workplace is a true democracy. Very few workplaces are, or can be, a democracy. The best you can hope for is benign dictatorship. Ultimately, though, some have power and control, others don't. Realistically, the dynamic is invariably an adversarial one, no matter how reasonable and fair the administrators are.

 

 

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

[Fuengirola Saint]

I sympathise with your need to make someone redundant. It's unpleasant.

 

If you read what you've written again, you'll notice your bias. You refer to unionised workers as "well-paid" (is that a bad thing?) people doing "undemanding" jobs. How would you know whether or not the jobs are "undemanding"? No doubt you have some particular types of workers in mind. But it's not fair to generalise. My wife is a nurse; I am a teacher. Our jobs are very demanding and often stressful.

 

You also characterise union members as looking for "something trivial" over which to strike. It's not like that; most strikes occur because of an impasse in the bargaining process over wages, or the threat of removing benefits gained in previous contracts ("contract stripping"). When workers do strike, they rarely get back the money they lose during their strike - so they're not going to walk out over anything "trivial".

 

It seems to me that the anxieties and insecurities of the modern economy - especially in the private sector - leads many people to resent unfairly those who are fortunate to have a secure situation. Would those who have been made redundant feel better if others got to suffer too? Wouldn't it be better to have all workers improve their lot, rather than have the wages and working conditions of all workers decline?

 

+1 :-)

[Fuengirola Saint]

Ryan Air (the most successful low cost airline) doesn't even give their crew water during their flights (which is quite important considering increased dehydration whilst flying) - From J Bognor

 

You sound like your impressed with this, it's not a good thing when an employer is a ****!

[Johnny Bognor]

Ryan Air (the most successful low cost airline) doesn't even give their crew water during their flights (which is quite important considering increased dehydration whilst flying) - From J Bognor

 

You sound like your impressed with this, it's not a good thing when an employer is a ****!

 

Not at all - I even highlighted the issue of dehydration (which is far worse at altitude compared with those of us that work on terra firma). I was merely highlighting that many in the airline industry are treated like crap, whilst BA have it very very very cushy, hence what is their problem?

 

Had BA been paid as low of the rest of the industry and treated as many of them are, then I could be more sympathetic. Staying in 5* hotels for three nights, whilst Easyjet crew get a 1 hour break before coming home from the same destination, doesn't constitute being hard done by in my book.

Edited 18 December, 2009 by Johnny Bognor

[Gemmel]

Ryan Air (the most successful low cost airline) doesn't even give their crew water during their flights (which is quite important considering increased dehydration whilst flying) - From J Bognor

 

You sound like your impressed with this, it's not a good thing when an employer is a ****!

 

Or when it's obviusly total ********

[Johnny Bognor]

Or when it's obviusly total ********

 

Did you watch the Panorama Ryan Air documentary?

 

They have taken bottled water away. I assume they can still have tap water. Bottled water is almost standard issue equipment for Cabin Crew. No doubt BA crew have a choice between still and sparkling.

[Fuengirola Saint]

Thatcher has gone, whilst the unions (within BA and RM) are still here.

 

Company culture does evolve over time, however it is no coincidence that former nationalised companies are heavily unionised....... BA and the Royal Mail are both private yet have had many years of industrial dispute. Look at their competitors and you'll see that they have had little or no industrial action at all.

 

Do BA employees get a worse deal than their counterparts?

 

No way and they KNOW it.

 

The Royal Mail isn't private,typical Tory, make something up to suit his/her agenda. ( if you didn't just make that up, i can't believe you thought Royal Mail had been privatised )

[Hamilton Saint]

Not at all - I even highlighted the issue of dehydration (which is far worse at altitude compared with those of us that work on terra firma). I was merely highlighting that many in the airline industry are treated like crap, whilst BA have it very very very cushy, hence what is their problem?

 

Had BA been paid as low of the rest of the industry and treated as many of them are, then I could be more sympathetic. Staying in 5* hotels for three nights, whilst Easyjet crew get a 1 hour break before coming home from the same destination, doesn't constitute being hard done by in my book.

 

 

It's all a matter of perspective. When you say BA "have it very very very cushy", do you mean that a unionised workforce is well-paid and has good benefits compared to those who do similar jobs for other airlines? The workers at Easyjet and Ryan Air don't have the same advantages because they are working for an airline that cuts corners and benefits in order to offer the cheapest flights. Cheap flights are possible because overheads are kept low - i.e., lower wages and fewer benefits.

 

Your comparison seems to say that BA employees are somehow in the wrong ("very very very cushy"). Or, to put it another way, that BA employees ought to be treated in the same inferior way as those working under poorer conditions.

 

I'm making the same point again - don't pit some workers against others. Don't blame workers for improving their lot through unions and professional associations. Look to improve the conditions of ALL workers.

[View From The Top]

It's all a matter of perspective. When you say BA "have it very very very cushy", do you mean that a unionised workforce is well-paid and has good benefits compared to those who do similar jobs for other airlines? The workers at Easyjet and Ryan Air don't have the same advantages because they are working for an airline that cuts corners and benefits in order to offer the cheapest flights. Cheap flights are possible because overheads are kept low - i.e., lower wages and fewer benefits.

 

Your comparison seems to say that BA employees are somehow in the wrong ("very very very cushy"). Or, to put it another way, that BA employees ought to be treated in the same inferior way as those working under poorer conditions.

 

I'm making the same point again - don't pit some workers against others. Don't blame workers for improving their lot through unions and professional associations. Look to improve the conditions of ALL workers.

 

He's a tory therefore doesn't give a fat rat's arse about the workers.

[Johnny Bognor]

The Royal Mail isn't private,typical Tory, make something up to suit his/her agenda. ( if you didn't just make that up, i can't believe you thought Royal Mail had been privatised )

 

RM is a PLC, albeit all the shares are owned by the Govt. It was nearly partly privatised in the summer, but this was put off due to the recession. It is not technically private at the moment, as you say, but it will be part-privatised shortly - it is only a matter of time - that's if it is not sold off lock stock and barrel to DHL.

 

I know you can be a bit of a communist FS, but don't you see the irony in all this? You have cleared off to sunnier climates to better yourself / earnings / lifestyle. Isn't that a bit me-me-me and selfish? Isn't that a typical Tory trait to think about oneself and bugger the rest? What about the comrades you left behind? At least I'm paying my tax here, helping to support the welfare state and doing my bit for Britain.

Edited 18 December, 2009 by Johnny Bognor

[Johnny Bognor]

He's a tory therefore doesn't give a fat rat's arse about the workers.

 

I clean their bloody toilets FFS

 

I am as much against bad management as I am the unions.

 

Take Rover for example, what them ****s did was criminal. Bleed it dry, toss the carcus to one side and clear a couple of million quid. People like that should be locked up.

 

Bankers - they can go **** themselves as *****s like that gambled and screwed our economy. My business has had to fight this recession as much as anyone's, thanks to them ******s.

 

I am not for people making money regardless, unless they are genuinely creating wealth. If not, they are crooks and should be treated so.

 

In my world, bad management and militant unions would be eliminated.

Edited 18 December, 2009 by Johnny Bognor

[Redondo Saint]

It's all a matter of perspective. When you say BA "have it very very very cushy", do you mean that a unionised workforce is well-paid and has good benefits compared to those who do similar jobs for other airlines? The workers at Easyjet and Ryan Air don't have the same advantages because they are working for an airline that cuts corners and benefits in order to offer the cheapest flights. Cheap flights are possible because overheads are kept low - i.e., lower wages and fewer benefits.

 

Your comparison seems to say that BA employees are somehow in the wrong ("very very very cushy"). Or, to put it another way, that BA employees ought to be treated in the same inferior way as those working under poorer conditions.

 

I'm making the same point again - don't pit some workers against others. Don't blame workers for improving their lot through unions and professional associations. Look to improve the conditions of ALL workers.

 

I think your argument falls down when discussing the open market.

 

BA offer a service that is subject to competition. This means they have to offer a good product at a competitive price otherwise they get no business or lose a lot of money.

 

If the cost of staff is so high they can't be competitive then they will go bust just like every other business.

 

Like it or not, BA are a business that has to make a profit in a very competitive and challenging industry.

Ryan Air and Easy Jet have a very good safety record and do not cut corners. Airlines are governed by very strict rules regarding staff and equipment.

 

Other than perhaps your own field of expertise, everyone has had to take some cuts in salary and benefits.

Edited 18 December, 2009 by Redondo Saint

[Johnny Bognor]

I'm making the same point again - don't pit some workers against others. Don't blame workers for improving their lot through unions and professional associations. Look to improve the conditions of ALL workers.

 

At what cost though? At the cost of destroying the company they work for? If they do that there won't be any jobs for them to work in.

 

I made the same arguments about the RM on a previous thread a few months ago. In their effort to better themselves, they were actually destroying their job security.

 

Madness, utter madness

[Redondo Saint]

At what cost though? At the cost of destroying the company they work for? If they do that there won't be any jobs for them to work in.

 

I made the same arguments about the RM on a previous thread a few months ago. In their effort to better themselves, they were actually destroying their job security.

 

Madness, utter madness

 

 

Some people just don't get that point!

 

Look at how well the union 'leaders' pay themselves. Big salaries, pensions, cars, houses, etc, all coming from members dues!!

Strike or no strike, they get their money yet escape criticism from the boss bashers!!

[Whitey Grandad]

As for your last comment, the private sector (both bosses and workers) create the wealth and the government squanders it.

:smt038

[Whitey Grandad]

Your last sentence scares me: Workers shouldn't be dicatated to, this isn't a fascist state! If you're using them to make money, they should obviously do what there jobs demand, but they shouldn't have to go 'above and beyond'. Workers create the wealth, the bosses squander it!

You must work in a very antiquated organisation. Such institutions disappeared along with black and white films. Everyone is an employee, bosses and workers, and each is paid for doing a job. Every business has to create wealth or it will die. If we follow your policy of inflexible working practices then what you have is a workforce of robotic slaves and you should not be surprisd if you are treated as such.

[View From The Top]

Some people just don't get that point!

 

No, must of us do if you actually read the thread.

[View From The Top]

At what cost though? At the cost of destroying the company they work for? If they do that there won't be any jobs for them to work in.

 

 

It's the one thing that has really baffled me about this BA strike thing, they just don't seem to get it.

 

There are so many other airlines that now do it better and cheaper and most of us that fly scheduled are savvy enough to know this and how to access those better services.

[Johnny Bognor]

It's the one thing that has really baffled me about this BA strike thing, they just don't seem to get it.

 

There are so many other airlines that now do it better and cheaper and most of us that fly scheduled are savvy enough to know this and how to access those better services.

 

Exactly. Add in the fact that Ryanair and Easyjet are the fastest growing airlines means that they are giving their customers what they want.

 

It is all very well for Hamilton Saint to go on about improving the lot for all workers, but whilst socialists like yourself put your hard earned money into companies like Ryanair and Easyjet, the workers will continue to be exploited, whilst the workers at BA are having to accept cutbacks.

 

Therefore I blame the socialists that use low cost airlines. :smt008

[View From The Top]

Exactly. Add in the fact that Ryanair and Easyjet are the fastest growing airlines means that they are giving their customers what they want.

 

It is all very well for Hamilton Saint to go on about improving the lot for all workers, but whilst socialists like yourself put your hard earned money into companies like Ryanair and Easyjet, the workers will continue to be exploited, whilst the workers at BA are having to accept cutbacks.

 

Therefore I blame the socialists that use low cost airlines. :smt008

 

That's me off the hook then as I'm got BA flights booked for the Caribbean in 2010.

[Johnny Bognor]

That's me off the hook then as I'm got BA flights booked for the Caribbean in 2010.

 

 

I am pretty sure you have said you're going away for £2 soon. How can you expect the staff to be paid and treated properly if you are only prepared to pay £2?

 

Unfettered capitalism is not good, but consumerism is even worse. Take Primark for example, anyone with a social conscience would not set foot in the place.

 

Paying too little for your goods or services inevitably means someone somewhere else is going to be exploited.

 

As for the me-me-me accusations that I have had thrown at me, I think that Unite and the 10,000 crew can equally be accused of a me me me attitude. Sod those who would be stranded, sod those that could lose their money, sod those who are trying to get home to see loved ones at xmas, sod those who have worked and saved hard to take little Johnny to Disney. It is a sad day, when 10,000 selfish people can collectively screw 1 million people.

[aintforever]

I think unions are dated, they were a great idea when kids were being sent down the mines for 12 hours a day and a job was for life, but now things have moved on.

 

If you don't like your job you are free to get another one with conditions that suit you. If the BA cabin staff are so hard done by there must be plenty of other companies with better pay and conditions. If not then they have nothing to moan about.

[Gemmel]

If the BA cabin staff are so hard done by there must be plenty of other companies with better pay and conditions. If not then they have nothing to moan about.

 

Thats the irony,they are the highest paid out of all them

[aintforever]

Thats the irony,they are the highest paid out of all them

 

Exactly, they have to face up to the fact that the Airline industry has gone through dramatic changes in recent years. It's a simple case of adapt or die and like in many industries it means the workers might have to accept worse conditions and less pay.

[View From The Top]

I am pretty sure you have said you're going away for £2 soon. How can you expect the staff to be paid and treated properly if you are only prepared to pay £2?

 

But if you knew how the business model worked then you'd know if I'm paying £2 then some other poor sap will end up spending £200+.

 

Ryanair make £££ because they are canny. I save £££ because so am I.

 

We all choose our careers/jobs and know what we are accepting when we say yes.

 

If we don't like it, we move on.

 

That applies for BA staff, Ryanair staff, you and I.

[Redondo Saint]

No, must of us do if you actually read the thread.

 

If "most of us do" then surely "some people don't" otherwise all of us do.

 

If you actually read the thread.

[View From The Top]

If "most of us do" then surely "some people don't" otherwise all of us do.

 

If you actually read the thread.

 

Some decent lefties and neo-fascist righties will never, ever get it so they cancel each other out.