BA = British Leyland of the skies

[Johnny Bognor]

Like everything there are two sides to this debate and it has been very one sided on here and in the media.

 

Although it may seem to be one sided on here, there have been a number of notable contributors who reside in the bottom-left segment of the political compass who have also been critical of the strike. If your traditional lefty does not seem to be in favour, then Unite are really skating on thin ice.

[aintforever]

I don't get how people can work for a company that loses £300mill a year then moan like babies when they want to make cuts.

[View From The Top]

Like everything there are two sides to this debate and it has been very one sided on here and in the media.

 

Even us lefties think it's a HUGE mistake and plain wrong.

 

You are voting to lose your jobs and the flight slots lost when BA goes bust will be taken up and Joe Public will carry on flying for the cheapest price he can find.

[Arizona]

Whilst I have no doubt that the staff have some genuine issues, (Of which BA are at fault) there can be no excuse for striking over Christmas and ultimately cutting of the hand that feeds you. The public will quite rightly judge them and act accordingly. So when those that strike enjoy their time off - get used to it, because you'll have a lot more time on your hands when the company goes bust - Or is reborn into something else.

 

The whole commercial world has changed and not least the airline industry and it wll be the companies that adapt that survive. Does that mena BA have to become another Ryan air - Ive no idea, but if the strike goes ahead theres more chance of them being a "lakers", than a Ryan air

 

I don't think there is a case for them striking at all. BA have to make cuts in order to survive, there's no point in protesting about it. I think when it comes to pay deals, their cabin crew have some of the best rates in Europe. One of the things they are complaining about is a pay freeze. Who in their right mind working for a company loosing £300m a year would ask for a pay rise...

 

Ryanair does not recognise any trade unions, which means there are no strikes. Despite this most of the staff are more than happy with their jobs.

[Johnny Bognor]

The latest update from Willie

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/statement/public/en_gb

 

Tactics from Unite that seem very familiar.... a case of deja vu.

[swannymere]

The death of British Airways is nigh, god bless the unions:rolleyes:

[Joensuu]

BA will go tits up, The Government will be forced to bail them out.

 

All at the cost of the tax payer. ie me. Merry Christmas.

 

 

I can't see the government stepping in. Yes they are a flagship brand, but they're not turning a profit, have lost most of the loyal customer base they had 20 years ago, are not critical to the country in any way, and it's not like the Government is in any fit state to throw more cash about. The only reason Brown would put his hand in his pocket over BA would be to try and hand the Tories a future problem.

 

I'm left of centre, and normally back union action, but only where it is legitimate. The fact that this is scheduled for the festive season is disgusting.

 

If the union had a strong case, I'm sure they would have put out media statements... but so far all we have heard is a pretty weak set of arguments, which fall a long way short of providing justification for either the action, or the timing.

 

It reminds me of the appauling RMT action earlier this year (unfortunately the tube has virtually got a transport monopoly, meaning they are unlikely to be hit in the pocket; however, BA has some serious rutheless corporate competitors)

 

[NB - Ryanair have already lost my custom; I don't care how cheap they go. There is a basic level of service, and they fail to provide it.]

[View From The Top]

[NB - Ryanair have already lost my custom; I don't care how cheap they go. There is a basic level of service, and they fail to provide it.]

 

I use them anything from 5/6 to 12+ times a year and treat it just like catching a bus.

 

I use electron so avoiding fees and travel cheap as chips.

 

Because all I expect is for them to get me there ( and they've never failed) I can live with no service.

 

Long haul I like my creature comforts but will still shop around for the very best deal on a "decent" airline.

[View From The Top]

The death of British Airways is nigh, god bless the unions:rolleyes:

 

Even if they didn't strike BA is tottering towards the brink thanks to the collapse of their core market, business travel and not even the rabid right can blame the unions for that.

Edited 15 December, 2009 by View From The Top

[stevegrant]

It reminds me of the appauling RMT action earlier this year (unfortunately the tube has virtually got a transport monopoly, meaning they are unlikely to be hit in the pocket; however, BA has some serious rutheless corporate competitors)

RMT took an absolute pounding for their strike earlier this year, including from many of their own members. Thousands of RMT members crossed the picket line, and of course the railways and tube could still call upon the members of the other rail union (can't remember its name), so a fairly reasonable service was running throughout the strike.

[Arizona]

[NB - Ryanair have already lost my custom; I don't care how cheap they go. There is a basic level of service, and they fail to provide it.]

 

Safest, cheapest, most on time, least lost bags in Europe.

 

Anything beyond that is trivial.

[JackFrost]

I can't see the government stepping in. Yes they are a flagship brand, but they're not turning a profit, have lost most of the loyal customer base they had 20 years ago, are not critical to the country in any way, and it's not like the Government is in any fit state to throw more cash about. The only reason Brown would put his hand in his pocket over BA would be to try and hand the Tories a future problem.

 

I'm left of centre, and normally back union action, but only where it is legitimate. The fact that this is scheduled for the festive season is disgusting.

 

If the union had a strong case, I'm sure they would have put out media statements... but so far all we have heard is a pretty weak set of arguments, which fall a long way short of providing justification for either the action, or the timing.

 

It reminds me of the appauling RMT action earlier this year (unfortunately the tube has virtually got a transport monopoly, meaning they are unlikely to be hit in the pocket; however, BA has some serious rutheless corporate competitors)

 

[NB - Ryanair have already lost my custom; I don't care how cheap they go. There is a basic level of service, and they fail to provide it.]

 

To the financial prudence of Brown and Darling, it seems like a good investment then

[JackanorySFC]

RMT took an absolute pounding for their strike earlier this year, including from many of their own members. Thousands of RMT members crossed the picket line, and of course the railways and tube could still call upon the members of the other rail union (can't remember its name), so a fairly reasonable service was running throughout the strike.

 

And the weather was particulary nice that day meaning I got the Thames Clipper from Waterloo to work, something I've done on every sunny day since.

 

Seams that anyone that strikes these days has been used to cushy pay and conditions and doesn't like being brought into line with the commercial sector:

 

RMT - Excellent pay and benefits (loads of holiday, free transport for family members etc). If they advertised a tube drivers job in any newspaper they would get deluged with applications!

 

Postie - "Job and knock, down the pub by 11am after 4 hours, lovely jubbly - oh ****, what d'ya mean you want me to do another round and/or sort to make up my shift time?"

 

BA - Pay above rest of industry, good benefits. Plenty of Virgin staff there to take their positions if they want to leave!

 

Personally work in a very competitive sector of an industry that's had a tough year, everyone has had a pay freeze and reruitments been put on hold to reduce head count meaning we are doing more work after making 80 people redundent this time last year. Do I moan, nah, just get on with it and greatful I've got a job that pays my way down the pub.

[Joensuu]

I use them anything from 5/6 to 12+ times a year and treat it just like catching a bus.

 

I use electron so avoiding fees and travel cheap as chips.

 

Because all I expect is for them to get me there ( and they've never failed) I can live with no service.

 

Long haul I like my creature comforts but will still shop around for the very best deal on a "decent" airline.

 

All I want is a basic service too, my only requirements for air travel are:

 

1) Arrive at destination (within say 30 mins of scheduled time)

2) Not be charged any extras for basics (such as checking in! or being allowed to carry a change of clothes)

 

 

I don't have or want an electron. I want to take some form of overnight bag with me wherever I go. My only other requirement is getting to the destination (on time). Just like a bus, Ryanair frequently fail to depart on time (if at all). And when your flight does get messed up, having a customer services who actually attempt to fix your issue would be useful.

[JackFrost]

And the weather was particulary nice that day meaning I got the Thames Clipper from Waterloo to work, something I've done on every sunny day since.

 

Seams that anyone that strikes these days has been used to cushy pay and conditions and doesn't like being brought into line with the commercial sector:

 

RMT - Excellent pay and benefits (loads of holiday, free transport for family members etc). If they advertised a tube drivers job in any newspaper they would get deluged with applications!

 

Postie - "Job and knock, down the pub by 11am after 4 hours, lovely jubbly - oh ****, what d'ya mean you want me to do another round and/or sort to make up my shift time?"

 

BA - Pay above rest of industry, good benefits. Plenty of Virgin staff there to take their positions if they want to leave!

 

Personally work in a very competitive sector of an industry that's had a tough year, everyone has had a pay freeze and reruitments been put on hold to reduce head count meaning we are doing more work after making 80 people redundent this time last year. Do I moan, nah, just get on with it and greatful I've got a job that pays my way down the pub.

 

They weren't the ones striking

[View From The Top]

All I want is a basic service too, my only requirements for air travel are:

 

1) Arrive at destination (within say 30 mins of scheduled time)

2) Not be charged any extras for basics (such as checking in! or being allowed to carry a change of clothes)

 

 

I don't have or want an electron. I want to take some form of overnight bag with me wherever I go. My only other requirement is getting to the destination (on time). Just like a bus, Ryanair frequently fail to depart on time (if at all). And when your flight does get messed up, having a customer services who actually attempt to fix your issue would be useful.

 

I always take a trolly dolly case (which is free) and check in online and very, very rarely pay more than £30 return for a flight.

 

By having an electron account, free with the Co-Op (which I have ONLY for flights) I reduce my costs further.

 

My only delays are if I'm taking the last flight out of Milan, other than that I've never had more than a 10-15 min delay and I can live with that and

I have never had a flight cancelled in the 12 years I have been flying with them.

 

It's not rocket science and saves me a fortune each year compared to the flag carriers.

 

My wife and I are off to Bologna in the NY for the grand total of £2 return all in. I can live with lack of service at that price.

[JackanorySFC]

OK - Postal Worker: "I want job security in an industry that is haemorrhaging cash and losing the confidence of the public." I havn't job job security, I just work as hard as I can to exceed my bosses expectations in me, that way when (not if) redundency comes round again I'll be in a strong position. If I lose my job I'll get out and work my arse off to get another job.

 

I'm genuinely astonished that anyone expects job security and/ or pay rises in the middle (or end if you believe Darling) of the biggest reccession in living memory!

[Thedelldays]

if it helps...im getting another pay rise in March

[Joensuu]

I always take a trolly dolly case (which is free) and check in online and very, very rarely pay more than £30 return for a flight.

 

By having an electron account, free with the Co-Op (which I have ONLY for flights) I reduce my costs further.

 

My only delays are if I'm taking the last flight out of Milan, other than that I've never had more than a 10-15 min delay and I can live with that and

I have never had a flight cancelled in the 12 years I have been flying with them.

 

It's not rocket science and saves me a fortune each year compared to the flag carriers.

 

My wife and I are off to Bologna in the NY for the grand total of £2 return all in. I can live with lack of service at that price.

 

Fair enough. Still, think you've been very lucky to get through 12 years of Ryanair without a problem... (in fact, that must be pretty unique, and I'm sure the Ryanair marketing office would love to hear from you (they might even throw a few freebies your way if you're lucky!).

 

As for the 'trolley dolly bag'... come on!

 

Shame they got knocked out of this year's 'Worst Company in Britain awards', but hey, it was close: http://www.bitterwallet.com/worst-company-in-britain-2009-ryanair-v-dsgi/22716

[Hatch]

if it helps...im getting another pay rise in March

 

since we are on the subject

 

2007 - no pay increase

2008 - no pay increase

2009 - 5% pay cut.

 

Imagine the Unions putting up with that. Would they hell.

 

I could mention the 24% pay rise in 2006 but I wont !!

[Joensuu]

if it helps...im getting another pay rise in March

 

Make the most of it... Osborne will have plans for the MoD budget (hope it's just the middle management and external consultants eh?)

[Wade Garrett]

Willie Walsh seems to have made a sow's ear out of a silk purse. Bravo, typical of some of the incompetent management that is plaguing British industry. If I was a shareholder I wouldn't be at all happy with this fool running BA.

 

Unite aren't covering themselves in glory either. I respect their right to take action, but ruining many hard-working families Christmas holidays is bang out of order.

[Hamilton Saint]

It's some time since I have been to Ontario so I don't know the current suituation over there but I do know about nurses and teachers in the Uk and they are the most secure, unproductive cushy numbers that I have ever come across. How many teachers have lost their jobs in the last 11 years? It's just over 10. One main reason why so many are losing their jobs now are because of the enormous millstone that the Public Sector hangs round the necks of the Private. If I'm biased it's because I am fed up with supporting Public-Sector employees who aren't pulling their weight.

 

Nurses have a "cushy" job? You really think so?

 

I don't know about the UK, but here in Ontario nursing is a difficult job. It is very demanding physically (10 stone women having to lift and shift 20 stone men), and most wards are chronically understaffed because of continuing cutbacks. Nurses are often assaulted by their patients (bitten, punched and kicked), harangued by the patients' family members, who are upset at the lack of attention their loved ones are getting (sometimes that concern is justified - but that's the price paid for understaffing wards).

 

I would be surprised if conditions were not quite similar in the UK.

[CanadaSaint]

Just to give one example from today's news here in Canada. An employee of the Royal Bank of Canada in B.C. has been caught helping hundreds of people establish tax-havens with secretive Lichenstein banks. They have defrauded the taxpayers of millions of dollars of tax.

 

Hamilton, you accused someone of being "Slightly hyperbolic" earlier in this thread and I'm going to do the same to you.

 

Although this could grow bigger, the very latest news still indicates that it was several advisors in one or two offices, but not even Canada Revenue Agency is suggesting at this point that there are "hundreds of people" benefiting from their actions.

 

This is part of the problem - people on both sides of the union/anti-union debate resort to overstatement in an attempt to make their point, and that carries over to the negotiating table.

[Hamilton Saint]

Hamilton, you accused someone of being "Slightly hyperbolic" earlier in this thread and I'm going to do the same to you.

 

Although this could grow bigger, the very latest news still indicates that it was several advisors in one or two offices, but not even Canada Revenue Agency is suggesting at this point that there are "hundreds of people" benefiting from their actions.

 

This is part of the problem - people on both sides of the union/anti-union debate resort to overstatement in an attempt to make their point, and that carries over to the negotiating table.

 

 

From The Globe and Mail:

 

 

"Take the case of Heinrich Kieber. The 43-year-old computer technician was arrested and convicted in 2002 of stealing highly classified bank records of heavy hitters who had stashed their cash inside the tax-free confines of Lichtenstein's LGT Group bank. Kieber did not go straight to jail. Instead, he collected about €5 million—and a free pass into a witness protection program—for dishing the data to German authorities, helping them figure out which of their citizens' tax records might be worth a second look. Now, other authorities are lining up, presumably with chequebooks in hand, to get a glimpse of the other 1,400 names on the list (among them, apparently, 100 Canadians)."

 

 

 

From The Toronto Star:

 

 

"Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Canada's minister of national revenue, says he has a list of more than 100 names of people who allegedly used the trading arm of the nation's top bank, the Royal Bank of Canada, to set up offshore tax havens in the European principality of Liechtenstein."

 

 

 

 

That's over a hundred already - my comment based on an estimation that that'll turn out to be a couple of hundred at least (given that lots will still be hidden for a while yet).

[CanadaSaint]

That's over a hundred already - my comment based on an estimation that that'll turn out to be a couple of hundred at least (given that lots will still be hidden for a while yet).

 

Yes, but Kieber's German and most of the tax-evaders in that case are European.

 

Your statement was "An employee of the Royal Bank of Canada in B.C. has been caught helping hundreds of people establish tax-havens with secretive Lichenstein banks", which - at least for now - is hyperbole.

 

My point wasn't about the number of people fiddling their taxes in Canada, but about the use of exaggeration to make points in the endless pro/anti-union debate.

 

I've actually watched it from both sides of the bargaining table and it frustrates me no end.

 

Meantime, Hamilton, we actually managed to obliterate a longstanding temperature record this week. On Sunday night it dropped to -46 at the airport, beating the old record by a stunning 10 degrees. No hyperbole in that sentence - not even the underlined bits!

[View From The Top]

As for the 'trolley dolly bag'... come on!

 

Same size as you can take as hand luggage on all the low cost carriers so what's the issue?

[sadoldgit]

I've seen no comments from Unite that make the timing of the strike justified. They would get a hell of a lot more sympathy had they waited until the new year.

 

They are using the time of the year as emotional blackmail, and quite frankly it's not on.

 

Over a million passengers could be affected, which could mean over a million people not being able to visit their families and friends over the Christmas period.

 

Ultimately, if BA end up having to refund the fares of those who are affected (as they have done in the past), it wouldn't surprise me if BA feel they have to wield the axe over a hell of a lot more staff than they were originally planning to.

 

In the current climate, people should be f**king glad they've got any form of employment, let alone one in which they are, IMO, treated pretty well, particularly compared to the staff at their competitors.

 

My children live in Spain and are due to be coming over to me for the Christmas hols and are flying (or might be) BA. Bah!

 

In this day and age there are no reasons to strike. At the end of the day the company will lose even more money/business which will equate to more job losses.

 

I work in the public sector and we have to save £500k a year for the next three years in our area. Over the whole country that equates to a 20% jobs cut. There will be no strike though and no inconvenience for the public. Sadly it is the way of the world. It is called reality in a tough financial climate.

 

BA are in the cr*p financially which means it will be tougher for the staff - welcome to the real world!

 

To take it out on the people who pay their wages at Christmas speaks volumes about what the cabin staff really think about the people they are suppose to serve.

 

Well Duncan, you are a cabin staff shop steward aren't you? Wha do you have to say about this?

[Thedelldays]

Make the most of it... Osborne will have plans for the MoD budget (hope it's just the middle management and external consultants eh?)

what ever they do...they wont give us a pay cut..and whilst wars are going on, I think forces wages are pretty much safe..

[Hamilton Saint]

Yes, but Kieber's German and most of the tax-evaders in that case are European.

 

Your statement was "An employee of the Royal Bank of Canada in B.C. has been caught helping hundreds of people establish tax-havens with secretive Lichenstein banks", which - at least for now - is hyperbole.

 

My point wasn't about the number of people fiddling their taxes in Canada, but about the use of exaggeration to make points in the endless pro/anti-union debate.

 

I've actually watched it from both sides of the bargaining table and it frustrates me no end.Meantime, Hamilton, we actually managed to obliterate a longstanding temperature record this week. On Sunday night it dropped to -46 at the airport, beating the old record by a stunning 10 degrees. No hyperbole in that sentence - not even the underlined bits!

 

1) You didn't read the second quote from The Toronto Star?

 

2) Contract bargaining, like most political situations, has always been an adversarial process. That's the way the system has evolved. Ultimately, it's a self-interested process on both sides.You're bound to get hyperbole as both side puts its position in the best light. It's primarily rhetoric and propaganda; it's unrealistic to expect it to be completely honest and rational.

 

 

Meanwhile, I'm impressed by your amazing frigidity out there. It's not the sort of temperature record we'd care to emulate. Right now, it's +1 degrees C here!

 

[CanadaSaint]

Meanwhile, I'm impressed by your amazing frigidity out there. It's not the sort of temperature record we'd care to emulate. Right now, it's +1 degrees C here!

 

 

"Amazing frigidity" doesn't seem to do it justice but apparently it's leaving soon and heading - sorry to say it - eastward. I hope it smartens up before it gets anywhere near you. Have a good one, Hamilton.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

why we have unions who feel the need to strike in Britain in this day and age is beyond me...

 

this is hardly victorian england ffs

 

You really want to try explaining that to some employers, which is exactly why (in some places of work) the Unions take the hard line!

 

No union can now incite it's members to strike. It can only, in discussions, give it's members the options of action which are available to them, the members. The members indicate whether they want a ballot on a strike. The union will not spend their money with all the costs of a ballot without the member's say so. The members then vote in that ballot.

 

It's not the Union leaders or shop stewards who actually call the strike, it's the members who do.

 

I'm not advocating who is right or wrong in this particular case, just stating that the Union have followed the due legal process, brought to Statute by a Right Wing Government.

[Verbal]

BA are the Royal Mail of the skies - appalling industrial relations and on the brink of extinction.

 

BA's problems are so bad, and so numerous, that I for one won't travel on them unless someone else has paid the ticket. I had to fly them to and from Frankfurt yesterday, and all the usual old problems were on display - both flights were late (the outbound because they underestimated the loading time and missed their take-off slot), the cabin crew were, as usual, contemptuous towards its customers, and the planes were cramped and unpleasant (certainly compared to the aircraft operated by a low-fares airline like EasyJet).

 

BA has outlived its usefulness to everyone except some probably desperate shareholders.

 

The union members who congratulated wildly on winning the strike ballot clearly have other job opportunities on their minds (because they can't have been thinking of the 900,000 passengers who'd paid their wages with bookings, only to have their holidays ruined).

 

The dinosaur-like management has a history of oppressiveness and abuse that extends beyond their own employees to customers who have displeased them in some way (including some spectacularly nasty threats aimed a few years back at a passenger who complained about finding glass in his food).

 

And their aircraft fleet is creakingly old, expensive to maintain and not fit for purpose.

 

Good riddance. (The Royal Mail, on the other hand, I'd miss!)

[benjii]

 

 

 

The Xmas decision was also given serious, serious thought. Although this action will cause real heartache amongst the public we have to consider our future employment and terms and conditions as a priority. Ruined Christmases will eventually be forgotten, certainly by next Christmas, but your terms and conditions are something you will have with you for the rest of your working life.

 

 

 

One of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

 

The last sentence sums up perfectly the mentality of the "job for lifers" who litter unions and suchlike.

[Gemmel]

Well , well, well, if the public had any sympathy for the strikers before, (Which they didn't) anybody who has seen the video footage of the strike being announced at the union meeting, will see them for the ***ts they are.

 

Think of what the Northam looks like when Saints score a last minute equaliser

 

Sack the lot them & get rid of the unions

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Well , well, well, if the public had any sympathy for the strikers before, (Which they didn't) anybody who has seen the video footage of the strike being announced at the union meeting, will see them for the ***ts they are.

 

Think of what the Northam looks like when Saints score a last minute equaliser

 

Sack the lot them & get rid of the unions

 

O.k, but then what happens if management of a public/private firm takes unlawful action? It would be too expensive for the ordinary working man to fight it himself...

 

Good luck to the 'em. They are fighting for their jobs. They had their jobs BEFORE the recession, why the hell should it be any different now?!?! It is BA's FAULT not the workers: BA should have spent more time securing these jobs/paying off debts etc when the times were 'good' rather than lining the pockets of the shareholders. But oh no, that's capitalism for you; pull the ladder up Jack and sod the rest.

[JackanorySFC]

O.k, but then what happens if management of a public/private firm takes unlawful action? It would be too expensive for the ordinary working man to fight it himself...

 

Good luck to the 'em. They are fighting for their jobs. They had their jobs BEFORE the recession, why the hell should it be any different now?!?! It is BA's FAULT not the workers: BA should have spent more time securing these jobs/paying off debts etc when the times were 'good' rather than lining the pockets of the shareholders. But oh no, that's capitalism for you; pull the ladder up Jack and sod the rest.

 

 

You want to read that again? Are you seriously arguing that every person that has lost their job in the biggest recession in living memory did so needlessly because "They had their jobs BEFORE the recession".

 

One of the most insane comments I think I've ever read!!!!!

[Gemmel]

O.k, but then what happens if management of a public/private firm takes unlawful action? It would be too expensive for the ordinary working man to fight it himself...

 

Good luck to the 'em. They are fighting for their jobs. They had their jobs BEFORE the recession, why the hell should it be any different now?!?! It is BA's FAULT not the workers: BA should have spent more time securing these jobs/paying off debts etc when the times were 'good' rather than lining the pockets of the shareholders. But oh no, that's capitalism for you; pull the ladder up Jack and sod the rest.

 

You fight my argument better than I ever can....... The looney left at their very best.... Thank you

[stevegrant]

And the weather was particulary nice that day meaning I got the Thames Clipper from Waterloo to work, something I've done on every sunny day since.

The Clipper's covered by Oyster PAYG from January as well

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Well , well, well, if the public had any sympathy for the strikers before, (Which they didn't) anybody who has seen the video footage of the strike being announced at the union meeting, will see them for the ***ts they are.

 

Think of what the Northam looks like when Saints score a last minute equaliser

 

Sack the lot them & get rid of the unions

 

Get you facts right - that cheering was for the result of the ballot which was a 92.5% yes.

There was no cheering when the 12 day strike was announced, but don't let that fact get in the way of your argument.

 

I am not going to get into the ins and outs of this because like most strikes it is very complicated and most of you probably wouldn't believe me anyway but just consider these points

 

We have offered to call off the strike if Walsh goes back to the status quo (ie back to the original crew complements). The ball therefore is very much in Walsh's hands - he has the ability to end it all now. But he won't - this is not about savings or keeping BA afloat it's about him turning the national airline of this country into Ryanair, and de-unionising the employees. If you have flown on Ryanair you might actually begin to see where we are coming from.

 

We will find the £40m in making other cuts elsewhere. So he gets his money and no strike but he is refusing to budge.

 

New entrant cabin crew start on a basic of £11,000. The add ons (non-pensionable) can add around £6000 to that. Have you ever tried living in London or the Home Counties on that sort of salary. Everyone who joined BA post 1997 earn very little more than the minimum wage.

 

My wife is a purser on 747s. Virtually every flight there is some sort of emergency or drama. I'm talking drunken fights, births on board, heart attacks and deaths. Once on a flight from BDA to LHR she saved a little girl's life - she was having a severe asthma attack and we had to divert the plane. If your daughter, or mother was ill on board a long haul flight would you want the first person on the scene to be capable of saving their life? Sound dramatic? How about that crew that evacuated the plane that skidded off the runway last year. I myself was involved in an aircraft fire that lead to a full evacuation down the chutes. Hijacking, terrorist threats the list is endless. Hey no problem, it's part of the job but to slag crew off as just a bunch of horrible people is not an accurate reflection.

 

Crew are not militant - they are very middle England actually, very much like yourself. Ask then when in the middle of a recession 92.5 voted to take action. Just perhaps they are fed up of the intimidation being waged by BA. I have 3 colleague friends of mine currently suspended and charged with gross misconduct because they made a PA explaining that the slow service was down to there being less crew on board.

 

It is a very sad state of affairs when many crew are saying to me that they know their actions could bring BA down but they simply cannot go on working for a company that treats its staff so appallingly.

 

Incidentally talk of money. This is only the second year in 30 that BA have posted a loss and let's not forget the £400m in fines they have had to stump up for price fixing

ie taking money out of your pockets.

 

We chose Xmas because we know it had to be something draconian to bring Walsh and his Board to their senses.

 

The point of me responding to this is not for sympathy, I know it is past all that but there is another side to this and a lot of what is being said is ignorant or factually wrong - like Gemmel's remark about the applause. Oh and how do I knw - well being the Secretary of BASSA it was me who read out the result, so for once I do know what I am talking about.

 

I could tell you a whole lot more, like being phoned this morning in the know to be informed that BA have sent my personal details to the tabloid press inviting them to investigate my private life for skeletons to be used in this Sunday's. That's BA for you. Like the time they sent a courier in a motorcycle helmet around my house at midnight with a suspension letter.

 

I am not going to have time to get into the debate on here, that's not because I am being rude, but because I simply haven't got time. One thing I haven't yet done is tell my Mum and Dad about the tabloid press trouble on the horizon and I want to warn them.

 

I am genuinely sorry about ruining Christmases but like i say Walsh has the power to stop that happening. Rgds Duncan

[Nineteen Canteen]

Over to you Sir Richard, the true flag carrier of our nation. Virgin cabin crew (who earn nearly 50% less than the BA equivalents) voted against strike action on the basis that it would cost more jobs than it would save. Unite were sent with their bags packing....all the way to the British Leyland of the skies.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8411214.stm

 

Johnny you have a point with regard to the staff and anybody in this day and age who believe they can protect or improve their jobs through strike action is very misguided. Doing it at such a disruptive and important time of year for families the damage to BA could easily be irrevocable.

 

Like the Royal mail strikes there are other socio-economic pressures at work with regard to airlines and Virgin cabin crew are far from happy with their situation but it is better to look after themselves until such time as they can influence change or move on.

 

However, in BA's defence unlike Britsh Leyland they do actually have a good product and a perceived mark of excellence not something you could attribute to names likes Maxi, Allegro, Marina, Princess, Ambassador etc. Now was that a roll of honour worth fighting for?!

 

I have not had the pleasure of hearing the Unite spokesperson yet but if he or she is the same mould as Crow, the verbal oik from Royal Mail, Scargil and the rest, they will come across with one thing in common. They will complain about how hard done by they are and they will offer their apologies to the public and try to convince us they had no choice but at no time will they acknowledge the social and economic changes that may mean a major change in the way the businesses are run and the resultant staff redundancies or salary realignments required.

 

It always seems to me they want to protect their cosy world but not move on or recognise the need to change and prefer to push the company and ironically themselves to the ultimate conclusion they are all trying to avoid.

 

With the employment laws that we now have in this country, Unions are a complete waste of time and in most cases staffed by beligerent left of left wingers who love a bit of air time and a chance to shout with out listening to newsreaders.

 

I like BA as a company but frankly if the staff want to support Unite then they do not deserve our patronage. Striking has never been the answer and never will be and if this is carried through it may be to late for BA's image because of the obvious angst it has already caused their most valuable commodity. I hope a bit of self imposed financial hardship will result in a reduction of salaries long term just to keep BA viable. That would be fair justice and maybe get employees to lift their head's from their weekly celebrity glossies and open their eyes to actually what is going on in the real world.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Get you facts right - that cheering was for the result of the ballot which was a 92.5% yes.

There was no cheering when the 12 day strike was announced, but don't let that fact get in the way of your argument.

 

I am not going to get into the ins and outs of this because like most strikes it is very complicated and most of you probably wouldn't believe me anyway but just consider these points

 

We have offered to call off the strike if Walsh goes back to the status quo (ie back to the original crew complements). The ball therefore is very much in Walsh's hands - he has the ability to end it all now. But he won't - this is not about savings or keeping BA afloat it's about him turning the national airline of this country into Ryanair, and de-unionising the employees. If you have flown on Ryanair you might actually begin to see where we are coming from.

 

We will find the £40m in making other cuts elsewhere. So he gets his money and no strike but he is refusing to budge.

 

New entrant cabin crew start on a basic of £11,000. The add ons (non-pensionable) can add around £6000 to that. Have you ever tried living in London or the Home Counties on that sort of salary. Everyone who joined BA post 1997 earn very little more than the minimum wage.

 

My wife is a purser on 747s. Virtually every flight there is some sort of emergency or drama. I'm talking drunken fights, births on board, heart attacks and deaths. Once on a flight from BDA to LHR she saved a little girl's life - she was having a severe asthma attack and we had to divert the plane. If your daughter, or mother was ill on board a long haul flight would you want the first person on the scene to be capable of saving their life? Sound dramatic? How about that crew that evacuated the plane that skidded off the runway last year. I myself was involved in an aircraft fire that lead to a full evacuation down the chutes. Hijacking, terrorist threats the list is endless. Hey no problem, it's part of the job but to slag crew off as just a bunch of horrible people is not an accurate reflection.

 

Crew are not militant - they are very middle England actually, very much like yourself. Ask then when in the middle of a recession 92.5 voted to take action. Just perhaps they are fed up of the intimidation being waged by BA. I have 3 colleague friends of mine currently suspended and charged with gross misconduct because they made a PA explaining that the slow service was down to there being less crew on board.

 

It is a very sad state of affairs when many crew are saying to me that they know their actions could bring BA down but they simply cannot go on working for a company that treats its staff so appallingly.

 

Incidentally talk of money. This is only the second year in 30 that BA have posted a loss and let's not forget the £400m in fines they have had to stump up for price fixing

ie taking money out of your pockets.

 

We chose Xmas because we know it had to be something draconian to bring Walsh and his Board to their senses.

 

The point of me responding to this is not for sympathy, I know it is past all that but there is another side to this and a lot of what is being said is ignorant or factually wrong - like Gemmel's remark about the applause. Oh and how do I knw - well being the Secretary of BASSA it was me who read out the result, so for once I do know what I am talking about.

 

I could tell you a whole lot more, like being phoned this morning in the know to be informed that BA have sent my personal details to the tabloid press inviting them to investigate my private life for skeletons to be used in this Sunday's. That's BA for you. Like the time they sent a courier in a motorcycle helmet around my house at midnight with a suspension letter.

 

I am not going to have time to get into the debate on here, that's not because I am being rude, but because I simply haven't got time. One thing I haven't yet done is tell my Mum and Dad about the tabloid press trouble on the horizon and I want to warn them.

 

I am genuinely sorry about ruining Christmases but like i say Walsh has the power to stop that happening. Rgds Duncan

 

Duncan,

 

I think the tabloid press could have worked it out for themselves as I did a long time ago after my now infamous but amusing ITN misassumptiom. Is it true that BA have taken this to the courts because they believe the ballot only targetted those employees likely to say yes to a strike? If so why would Unite have not included all employees in the interests of democracy and saving BA's dwindling customer loyalty?

[CB Saint]

Get you facts right - that cheering was for the result of the ballot which was a 92.5% yes.

There was no cheering when the 12 day strike was announced, but don't let that fact get in the way of your argument.

 

I am not going to get into the ins and outs of this because like most strikes it is very complicated and most of you probably wouldn't believe me anyway but just consider these points

 

We have offered to call off the strike if Walsh goes back to the status quo (ie back to the original crew complements). The ball therefore is very much in Walsh's hands - he has the ability to end it all now. But he won't - this is not about savings or keeping BA afloat it's about him turning the national airline of this country into Ryanair, and de-unionising the employees. If you have flown on Ryanair you might actually begin to see where we are coming from.

 

We will find the £40m in making other cuts elsewhere. So he gets his money and no strike but he is refusing to budge.

 

New entrant cabin crew start on a basic of £11,000. The add ons (non-pensionable) can add around £6000 to that. Have you ever tried living in London or the Home Counties on that sort of salary. Everyone who joined BA post 1997 earn very little more than the minimum wage.

 

My wife is a purser on 747s. Virtually every flight there is some sort of emergency or drama. I'm talking drunken fights, births on board, heart attacks and deaths. Once on a flight from BDA to LHR she saved a little girl's life - she was having a severe asthma attack and we had to divert the plane. If your daughter, or mother was ill on board a long haul flight would you want the first person on the scene to be capable of saving their life? Sound dramatic? How about that crew that evacuated the plane that skidded off the runway last year. I myself was involved in an aircraft fire that lead to a full evacuation down the chutes. Hijacking, terrorist threats the list is endless. Hey no problem, it's part of the job but to slag crew off as just a bunch of horrible people is not an accurate reflection.

 

Crew are not militant - they are very middle England actually, very much like yourself. Ask then when in the middle of a recession 92.5 voted to take action. Just perhaps they are fed up of the intimidation being waged by BA. I have 3 colleague friends of mine currently suspended and charged with gross misconduct because they made a PA explaining that the slow service was down to there being less crew on board.

 

It is a very sad state of affairs when many crew are saying to me that they know their actions could bring BA down but they simply cannot go on working for a company that treats its staff so appallingly.

 

Incidentally talk of money. This is only the second year in 30 that BA have posted a loss and let's not forget the £400m in fines they have had to stump up for price fixing

ie taking money out of your pockets.

 

We chose Xmas because we know it had to be something draconian to bring Walsh and his Board to their senses.

 

The point of me responding to this is not for sympathy, I know it is past all that but there is another side to this and a lot of what is being said is ignorant or factually wrong - like Gemmel's remark about the applause. Oh and how do I knw - well being the Secretary of BASSA it was me who read out the result, so for once I do know what I am talking about.

 

I could tell you a whole lot more, like being phoned this morning in the know to be informed that BA have sent my personal details to the tabloid press inviting them to investigate my private life for skeletons to be used in this Sunday's. That's BA for you. Like the time they sent a courier in a motorcycle helmet around my house at midnight with a suspension letter.

 

I am not going to have time to get into the debate on here, that's not because I am being rude, but because I simply haven't got time. One thing I haven't yet done is tell my Mum and Dad about the tabloid press trouble on the horizon and I want to warn them.

 

I am genuinely sorry about ruining Christmases but like i say Walsh has the power to stop that happening. Rgds Duncan

 

Unfortunately when your colleagues come our with statements like "Ruined Christmases will eventually be forgotten" you forego any kind of sympathy / empathy that I had and all that's left is contempt.

 

If what you say above re tabloids is true then BA is just as dispicable in its actions.

[Whitey Grandad]

Good luck to the 'em. They are fighting for their jobs. They had their jobs BEFORE the recession, why the hell should it be any different now?!?! It is BA's FAULT not the workers: BA should have spent more time securing these jobs/paying off debts etc when the times were 'good' rather than lining the pockets of the shareholders. But oh no, that's capitalism for you; pull the ladder up Jack and sod the rest.

Er, that's why the shareholders invest in the company. Without them then the company could not sustain any losses. What does BA do? Fly people around from place to place? NO - it makes money and it does it by flying people around. That's capitalism for you.

[Nineteen Canteen]

You fight my argument better than I ever can....... The looney left at their very best.... Thank you

 

Shall we all don our overalls and move to North Korea? BA this, BA that. Do you notice its never about how the staff have worked harder or increased their flexibility to support their company in troubled times. Same as Royal mail as the posties who have done 5 hours work on a 8 hour shift simply up and leave unwilling to help elsewhere.

 

They talk about finances and putting money aside for trouble times and yet they seem happy to accept their non-contributory pensions where the company is doing just that on behalf of every individual setting money aside for the future. Make the pensions contributory and give them all a 5% payrise most of them won't work out the implication reading TV Quick and Bella or OK and Hello if they turn left at the door.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Unfortunately when your colleagues come our with statements like "Ruined Christmases will eventually be forgotten" you forego any kind of sympathy / empathy that I had and all that's left is contempt.

 

If what you say above re tabloids is true then BA is just as dispicable in its actions.

 

Are they? Who took off the gloves first and who is trying to act in the best interests of a company that is clearly on the edge. There is a lot of bleating and woe is me according to Duncan, from the staff at BA but are those staff anymore privleged than other low income earners in the South East?

 

Affordable housing is not BA's issue, it's the governments. In any event the inevitable apologies are meaningless and these strikes as always are done to cause the maximum publicity for the Unions and bad press for the company and there is only ever one winner - the owners and employees of their competitors.

 

Duncan and his cohorts are simply shooting themselves in their foot I'm afraid and if they are genuinely sorry they move the strikes back a month in the interests of public relations and the long term survival of your employer.

[Patrick Bateman]

blah blah

 

Sorry, your post has made me fume.

 

Simply, if I don't get to New York next week with my girlfriend for Christmas, then I'll be going to court and getting Unite to refund everything I've booked. And I will go through the pain involved to do it.

 

"a ruined Christmas will be forgotten" - what arrogance. How dare someone tell me that it'll be forgotten.

 

There is NO place for striking, especially in the current climate and especially by BA cabin crew.

 

In the last 3 years, I've had no pay rise, and a 10% cut in Feb. Did I, and the 1000 other people affected complain? NO.

Has the cost of living gone up, yes.

I'm lucky to be employed and have a job in a company that is just about making money, so your lot should think themselves bloody lucky to be in employment and not be facing more job cuts or pay cuts in a company that is spewing cash left, right and centre.

 

FFS, when will unions wake up?

 

For the record, as said earlier in the thread, I know someone who works as BA cabin crew, and before I ripped her head off for voting yes, she told me she's working after all as she didn't realise how long she'd be out of work for and can't afford it.

I wonder how many other people are like that, hopefully a lot and hopefully most/all will still have their plans unaffected.

[Nineteen Canteen]

My children live in Spain and are due to be coming over to me for the Christmas hols and are flying (or might be) BA. Bah!

 

In this day and age there are no reasons to strike. At the end of the day the company will lose even more money/business which will equate to more job losses.

 

I work in the public sector and we have to save £500k a year for the next three years in our area. Over the whole country that equates to a 20% jobs cut. There will be no strike though and no inconvenience for the public. Sadly it is the way of the world. It is called reality in a tough financial climate.

 

BA are in the cr*p financially which means it will be tougher for the staff - welcome to the real world!

 

To take it out on the people who pay their wages at Christmas speaks volumes about what the cabin staff really think about the people they are suppose to serve.

 

Well Duncan, you are a cabin staff shop steward aren't you? Wha do you have to say about this?

 

Shows that even in the real world they are as aloof, plastic and snooty as they are when they are 'serving' our in flight needs. Depending where they are on the plane they either lick it or kick it in my experience and the most self serving bunch of people you are likely to meet.

[Patrick Bateman]

Shows that even in the real world they are as aloof, plastic and snooty as they are when they are 'serving' our in flight needs. Depending where they are on the plane they either lick it or kick it in my experience and the most self serving bunch of people you are likely to meet.

 

In fairness, based on my experience, American Airlines staff win that award hands down!!

 

I wish I'd gone with my instinct and flown with Virgin Atlantic as my last flights with them have been brilliant, but unusually, plumped for BA on cost (they were cheaper?) and also the flight timings were better.

Serves me right for not sticking "on brand".

[Nineteen Canteen]

Sorry, your post has made me fume.

 

Simply, if I don't get to New York next week with my girlfriend for Christmas, then I'll be going to court and getting Unite to refund everything I've booked. And I will go through the pain involved to do it.

 

"a ruined Christmas will be forgotten" - what arrogance. How dare someone tell me that it'll be forgotten.

 

There is NO place for striking, especially in the current climate and especially by BA cabin crew.

 

In the last 3 years, I've had no pay rise, and a 10% cut in Feb. Did I, and the 1000 other people affected complain? NO.

Has the cost of living gone up, yes.

I'm lucky to be employed and have a job in a company that is just about making money, so your lot should think themselves bloody lucky to be in employment and not be facing more job cuts or pay cuts in a company that is spewing cash left, right and centre.

 

FFS, when will unions wake up?

 

For the record, as said earlier in the thread, I know someone who works as BA cabin crew, and before I ripped her head off for voting yes, she told me she's working after all as she didn't realise how long she'd be out of work for and can't afford it.

I wonder how many other people are like that, hopefully a lot and hopefully most/all will still have their plans unaffected.

 

I suspect this post pretty much sums up the feelings of most rational members of the general public sick to the back teeth of striking workers and their unions who think their job is a right as oppose something you need to work hard at to retain whilst accepting their will be peaks and troughs that you will need to work through with you employer and not against them.

 

Unions are a complete waste of time and thankfully unheard of in some industries today and they are usually businesses with some of the hardest working employees who don't expect their packages served up on a plate simply for turning up for work and working to their job description year in year out and adding zero value as a result.