BA = British Leyland of the skies

[View From The Top]

I heard one bloke on 5 Live's debate this morning go on about the power of the union and that they hold all the trump cards. Sorry, they don't, the CUSTOMER holds the trump cards and the unions need to be taught this very valuable lesson.

 

I think the Unions are aware of this but in this case, they seem to be blinkered to the fact that customers have genuine choice now and will exercise that choice in an instant.

[Frank's cousin]

Good to see all the BA pr spin is being swallowed by all.

 

Maybe those spouting stupid unresearched comments and vitriol calling the crew 'Scum' did a bit of personal research they may find they have a bit of sympathy for the BA Crew and be less inclined to believe what is printed in the Daily Mail etc?

 

A few points to start;

1. A number of these issues relate to agreements BA made with the union back during the threatened action of 2007 which BA have failed to come good on

 

2. BA crew are better paid than other carriers crew. There are reasons behind this - many have a second or third language, or a professional qualification in nursing, degrees, are ex-forces personnel - and to attract this kind of staff costs more. However some of the figures quoted in the press are wildley exagerated - Junior Crew earning £29,000 pa - i don't think so!

 

3. BA management have been trying to secretley implement massive sweeping changes to staff T&C's since 2007 which will not only effect the crew but ultimately the passenger experience. And they now have the ideal opportunity to bring them in under the effects of the recession and a sob story.

 

4. Maybe, just maybe this action is a last resort and one of complete desperation by staff that have had any relationship with their employer tossed to the scrap heap over the last few years and are seen as trained monkeys by the management?

 

Ultimately Willie Walsh needs to decide if he wants BA to be a Premium Carrier or just another Easy Jet?

 

Thing is, this is what happens in most private sector industries - Companies at this time are laying off staff and reducing wages to try and survive - sure one or two may be using it as a mask to other reduction in working conditions, but the fact remains that during the growth years employees tend to do well because they hold a greater power, during recessions everyone has tobe realistic about what is economically viable.

 

I have no grief with Unions, they perform a valuable task, but the problem is that they never see seem to see the bigger picture, or the consequences of of some of their actions. Whatever the issues to working practices in this case the fact is that last year BA lost close to 400 million and this year its likely to be 800 million, which without drastic measures is unsustainable so something has to give.

 

However we should not forget that greed got us into this mess, greed of those who saw the global economy as a game in which to clean up - feckers

[Whitey Grandad]

If you read what you've written again, you'll notice your bias. You refer to unionised workers as "well-paid" (is that a bad thing?) people doing "undemanding" jobs. How would you know whether or not the jobs are "undemanding"? No doubt you have some particular types of workers in mind. But it's not fair to generalise. My wife is a nurse; I am a teacher. Our jobs are very demanding and often stressful.

It seems to me that the anxieties and insecurities of the modern economy - especially in the private sector - leads many people to resent unfairly those who are fortunate to have a secure situation. Would those who have been made redundant feel better if others got to suffer too? Wouldn't it be better to have all workers improve their lot, rather than have the wages and working conditions of all workers decline?

It's some time since I have been to Ontario so I don't know the current suituation over there but I do know about nurses and teachers in the Uk and they are the most secure, unproductive cushy numbers that I have ever come across. How many teachers have lost their jobs in the last 11 years? It's just over 10. One main reason why so many are losing their jobs now are because of the enormous millstone that the Public Sector hangs round the necks of the Private. If I'm biased it's because I am fed up with supporting Public-Sector employees who aren't pulling their weight.

[Saint Richard of Woolston]

The few of you that know me personally may find this a bit odd coming from me as my politics are generally right of centre - not too far these days but nevertheless right of centre. But I also believe in fairness - not something that is being demonstrated in this thread. Whilst some of you seem to be championing the BA case (as you are entitled to do and indeed the company may have some valid points) there seems to be little balance in what the Union case is.

 

Perhaps this statement, sent to me by one of the Senior Union Reps involved in this dispute but also available on their website so hardly privileged information, will at least help some people have a balanced view of the entire dispute.

 

I find it amazing that some people are caught out by this. My wife and I are regular trans-atlantic BA passengers and indeed we are going this Christmas to Florida. But knowing this was in the offing in the autumn (widely written about in the press) we booked other airlines. So we lost a few thousand airmiles but could be reasonably sure about getting there.

 

Anyhow, make whatever judgment you will. But please do so with ALL of the facts - or at least as much of the truth that is available.

 

"As expected there have been some distortions of the facts that are being featured in the media regarding the dispute. It seems BA tactics are to feed the Press with some grossly misleading facts and figures, which they know will be fed to all media outlets and misquoted throughout the coming weeks. We refer to the grossly over-stated average earnings in particular. We will shortly publish the correct figures.

 

 

 

Because of this misleading info, some of you will have to field some awkward questions from friends, associates and passengers over the next few days. As for on board we advise saying “it’s best I don’t comment” but off duty here are a few facts for you to consider and use when replying.

 

 

 

Remember it is within BA’s power to stop this strike and restart talks now. All they have to do is to agree to revoke the imposition and replace (or pledge to replace) the crew that have been taken off. BASSA will find the £40m that this imposition generated. The ball is in Willie Walsh’s court although, sadly we have already noted he has rejected this offer. Quite simply the strike goes on because of him.

 

 

 

The “12 days” decision was not taken lightly, but it would have been unfair to have held a series of 3 day strikes because that would have exposed the small percentage of crews taking action the first time around. BA are “suspend happy” at the moment and early reprisals could have had an impact on resolve, so it was important all members will be asked to take part. We are all in this together, not just crew working over a 3 day period.

 

 

 

The Xmas decision was also given serious, serious thought. Although this action will cause real heartache amongst the public we have to consider our future employment and terms and conditions as a priority. Ruined Christmases will eventually be forgotten, certainly by next Christmas, but your terms and conditions are something you will have with you for the rest of your working life.

 

 

 

Lots of crew are talking “anonymously” to the press. Some clearly are not genuine crew members, but most are. Remind the media who talk to you that your job is on the line should your identity be revealed. That shows just what sort of company we work for and what sort of atmosphere BA have created. A frightened, bullied workforce.

 

 

 

BA have confirmed that five crew have been suspended on gross misconduct charges for making PA apologies to passengers for slow service – again this shows BA in its true colours. Some of these people are senior, well-respected CSDs who have given the company 30 years of loyalty. The media need to understand just how ruthless BA are under Willie Walsh. This is a man who said you get nowhere with negotiating.

 

 

 

There has been some questions asking why strike when there is a legal judgement pending in February. This legal decision is fine, but we are taking a moral stand here, legal or not, imposition is morally wrong. Breaking of agreements is morally wrong. This is an industrial issue and it is important it is countered industrially as well as legally.

 

 

 

Questions have also been asked about LGW already working to inferior terms and conditions. The reason for this situation is well known (especially at LGW) and has historic origins emanating in merging with other airlines. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the LGW agreement they were negotiated by the Unions and agreed with by the membership. Just because one group of people struggle to make ends meet and work their socks off doesn’t mean that is the future for all crew.

 

Walsh is literally trying to turn the national airline of this country into Ryanair. Not only do we think the crew regard this as a step too far, but we are pretty sure most passengers do too.

 

 

 

If you are contacted by BA in any shape or form regarding this strike – decline to discuss it. You have no obligation to give any assurances or information as to your intentions. Politely say you have no comment.

 

 

 

We know the last 24 hours have been emotionally tough and come as a bit of a jolt to some. But remember we were backed into this corner by BA turning their back on both the negotiations and our offered savings, and then imposing changes to your terms and conditions. That simply left us with no choice to take the path we have all chosen by an incredible ballot result.

 

 

 

At this stressful time, it’s worth repeating an old cliché - “it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees”." Ends.

[View From The Top]

It's some time since I have been to Ontario so I don't know the current suituation over there but I do know about nurses and teachers in the Uk and they are the most secure, unproductive cushy numbers that I have ever come across. How many teachers have lost their jobs in the last 11 years? It's just over 10. One main reason why so many are losing their jobs now are because of the enormous millstone that the Public Sector hangs round the necks of the Private. If I'm biased it's because I am fed up with supporting Public-Sector employees who aren't pulling their weight.

 

LOL at the buffon.

 

You want to try teaching in a tough inner city school and then say it's cushy.

[Johnny Bognor]

I think the Unions are aware of this but in this case, they seem to be blinkered to the fact that customers have genuine choice now and will exercise that choice in an instant.

 

VFTT, I genuinely don't think they are aware. After the postal strikes, Crow was crowing about how the Union should be at the centre of the business. They need to learn that in the private sector, the customer should be at the centre of the business. This is a basic fundamental business principle.

 

With regards to the BA strike it makes my blood boil when the Union go on about striking over Christmas is done with a heavy heart. ********, they couldn't give a monkeys about the customers and clearly nor do the staff. Therefore it is time for the customer to wield their power and show that they will not be dictated to by the out-of-date politically driven unions.

[Arizona]

LOL at the buffon.

 

You want to try teaching in a tough inner city school and then say it's cushy.

 

I though he was a goalkeeper?

[View From The Top]

VFTT, I genuinely don't think they are aware. After the postal strikes, Crow was crowing about how the Union should be at the centre of the business. They need to learn that in the private sector, the customer should be at the centre of the business. This is a basic fundamental business principle.

 

With regards to the BA strike it makes my blood boil when the Union go on about striking over Christmas is done with a heavy heart. ********, they couldn't give a monkeys about the customers and clearly nor do the staff. Therefore it is time for the customer to wield their power and show that they will not be dictated to by the out-of-date politically driven unions.

 

Bob Crow is the exception to the rule and is outdated as Campari & Soda!

I support the trade union movement but I do not support militancy, it has no place in modern Britain.

Everyone in the service industries need to understand that the ability to evolve and change with the times is the key to survival in these troubled times, brought on by the greed of a few.

In fact, that applies to us all.

[Whitey Grandad]

LOL at the buffon.

 

You want to try teaching in a tough inner city school and then say it's cushy.

If you're not up to the job then get out and let someone else do it. At least you're not working with an axe hanging over your neck.

 

(not 'you' personally')

[View From The Top]

I though he was a goalkeeper?

 

That's his Saturday job.

[View From The Top]

If you're not up to the job then get out and let someone else do it. At least you're not working with an axe hanging over your neck.

 

(not 'you' personally')

 

 

You clearly haven't got a scooby.

 

In fact, it sounds more like sour grapes that someone elses career path has led to more security than yours.

 

Deal with it.

[Whitey Grandad]

You clearly haven't got a scooby.

 

In fact, it sounds more like sour grapes that someone elses career path has led to more security than yours.

 

Deal with it.

I'm self-employed and have been running a business employing people for 27 years. I was a school governor for 4 years, I have close relatives who are teachers and employees in the health service. My comments are based on a lifetime of observation and experience so I am in a good position to make comparisons. The Public Sector have it easy. BA is a dinosaur left over from the age of the big publicly-owned corporation. You can tell from the age of its staff that they're on good money or they wouldn't still be there.

[View From The Top]

I'm self-employed and have been running a business employing people for 27 years. I was a school governor for 4 years, I have close relatives who are teachers and employees in the health service. My comments are based on a lifetime of observation and experience so I am in a good position to make comparisons. The Public Sector have it easy. BA is a dinosaur left over from the age of the big publicly-owned corporation. You can tell from the age of its staff that they're on good money or they wouldn't still be there.

 

So the staff of a publicly owned airline have a direct correlation to teachers working in tough inner city schools.

Yeah, right.

People who spout off about teachers are usually the sort who when they meet one say "couldn't do your job".

I had the misfortune of having to work within a secondary school in the Black Country last week, a really sh*t school.

The teachers I saw earn every single penny. I wouldn't want to put up with that day in and day out.

Staff were, in the main, all in by 08.00 and I never saw one leave earlier than 16.45.

They were dedicated, hard working, caring and fighting a losing battle IMHO.

[Whitey Grandad]

Staff were, in the main, all in by 08.00 and I never saw one leave earlier than 16.45.

Luxury!

[Saint Richard of Woolston]

 

BA is a dinosaur left over from the age of the big publicly-owned corporation. You can tell from the age of its staff that they're on good money or they wouldn't still be there.

 

Whereas you are right about the age of the staff, speaking from my experience of more Atlantic Crossings than I care to remember in the last few years and several European jaunts each year, the experience of those staff stands BA in good stead and is an asset to them. Compare them with any other airline, major or otherwise, and they are a cut above and it counts heavily when we decide who to fly with privately. In my opinion, they are far better than AA & Virgin. Strangely, the only staff I would compare as being as good is South West Airlines in the US, which is an equivalent of Ryanair or EasyJet (broadly).

 

I don't see BA as a dinosaur and am interested as to why you made those comments.

[View From The Top]

Luxury!

 

You get the benefits of self employment when times are good and choose your own working hours, as do I so don't bleat about it.

 

Sounds needy and pathetic.

[Whitey Grandad]

People who spout off about teachers are usually the sort who when they meet one say "couldn't do your job".

Until the requirements were changed recently my qualifications were sufficient for me to be able teach in schools and universities.

[Whitey Grandad]

You get the benefits of self employment when times are good and choose your own working hours, as do I so don't bleat about it.

 

Sounds needy and pathetic.

What benefits might they be? Certainly not unemployment benefit, holiday pay, sickness pay, pension. Out in the 'real' world you can only eat what you can kill.

[View From The Top]

Until the requirements were changed recently my qualifications were sufficient for me to be able teach in schools and universities.

 

 

So you have a full Cert Ed with QTS status and a degree in a national curriculum subject?

No, thought not and those rules have existed for at least the last 15 years.

You need do formal teaching quals to teach in HE (I await to be corrected about that).

I have a vested interest as my wife is a teacher in a very, very tough and poor part of the Midlands. I see how much work she brings home and how much time she spends planning, marking, assessing etc.

She earns every penny.

[Whitey Grandad]

So you have a full Cert Ed with QTS status and a degree in a national curriculum subject?

 

No, thought not and those rules have existed for at least the last 15 years.

 

You need do formal teaching quals to teach in HE (I await to be corrected about that).

 

I have a vested interest as my wife is a teacher in a very, very tough and poor part of the Midlands. I see how much work she brings home and how much time she spends planning, marking, assessing etc.

 

She earns every penny.

It is an MA at Cambridge which in theory qualified me to teach, although I would be the first to admit that I would need a lot of training first, but until about three years ago was sufficient. I accept that you wife puts in a lot of time and dedication, but one specific will not disprove a generalisation. I know plenty of people in the business world who put in more time than she does (yes, really) and who don't have the associated job security or fringe benefits.

[View From The Top]

It is an MA at Cambridge which in theory qualified me to teach, although I would be the first to admit that I would need a lot of training first, but until about three years ago was sufficient. I accept that you wife puts in a lot of time and dedication, but one specific will not disprove a generalisation. I know plenty of people in the business world who put in more time than she does (yes, really) and who don't have the associated job security or fringe benefits.

 

Not to teach in a state school it wouldn't have been.

 

PGCE/Full Cert Ed with QTS has been a requirement for at least the last 15 years MA or no MA.

 

You chose your career path knowing full well the pros and cons. The pros being the opportunity to make plenty of profit and the cons being the security.

 

Others choose a different path.

 

To be bleating about those choices when times are hard is rather pathetic considering we heard not a peep when times were good.

[Whitey Grandad]

Not to teach in a state school it wouldn't have been.

 

PGCE/Full Cert Ed with QTS has been a requirement for at least the last 15 years MA or no MA.

 

You chose your career path knowing full well the pros and cons. The pros being the opportunity to make plenty of profit and the cons being the security.

 

Others choose a different path.

 

To be bleating about those choices when times are hard is rather pathetic considering we heard not a peep when times were good.

I'm bleating about the enormous tax burden that employers have to shoulder in order to support a bloated public sector. Times have never been good for manufacturing in Britain and I look forward to enjoying a profit if ever I see one. Tell that to any business these days and they'll roll around laughing. It's a common misconception that if you have a business then you're rolling in it with lots of cash benefits and allowances. A lot of small businesses work 60 to 80 hours a week, every week. Now employers NI is going up yet again, it's just another payroll tax.

 

The qualification thingy was an anomaly which has now been removed, quite rightly. My daughter and niece have been through the PGCE process so I know what's involved.

[View From The Top]

I'm bleating about the enormous tax burden that employers have to shoulder in order to support a bloated public sector. Times have never been good for manufacturing in Britain and I look forward to enjoying a profit if ever I see one. Tell that to any business these days and they'll roll around laughing. It's a common misconception that if you have a business then you're rolling in it with lots of cash benefits and allowances. A lot of small businesses work 60 to 80 hours a week, every week. Now employers NI is going up yet again, it's just another payroll tax.

 

The qualification thingy was an anomaly which has now been removed, quite rightly. My daughter and niece have been through the PGCE process so I know what's involved.

 

I work in the public sector and there are far too many non jobs sucking up money and only an idiot would disagree. However, teaching isn't one of those areas. LEAs etc are another matter!

 

I subscribe to the lean and efficent model and the department I run adhere to it. We could have another two support staff but we simply don't need them so I've not filled the positions, much to the annoyance of HR.

 

I also run my own small company and the methods I use in my "main" job I also use with my business as that's "my" money.

 

There can be plenty of crossover but the goodtimes have allowed middle management to bloat and it is there where the axe should fall.

[CB Saint]

I see that the turnout for the vote was high and that the vast majority voted for the strike - but this has got me thinking. How many of the staff actually vote on the merits of the action and how many vote along union lines because that is what is expected ( A bit like voting L aboutr / Tory beacause you always have or because your parents did) I say this because I read St rich's post re the statement from Unite and it seems to be an attempt to justify the action to their members.

 

I also loved this bit "Ruined Christmases will eventually be forgotten" - don't count on it

[Whitey Grandad]

I also loved this bit "Ruined Christmases will eventually be forgotten" - don't count on it

Some of us have very long memories and will be scaring our grandchildren and great-grandchildren with stories of BA for years to come. I have the memory of an elephant and the physique to match. I shall never forget.

[notnowcato]

Can we please focus on the pompous statement made by Unite???!!!!

 

As far as they are concerned ruining the christmases of 1 million passengers will be forgotten by next christmas.... oh really??!!

[notnowcato]

The 12 Days of Christmas. Pretty sick really.

[notnowcato]

"The Xmas decision was also given serious, serious thought"

 

When I hear double adjectives I tend to disbelieve the message.

[Whitey Grandad]

You just can't trust BA, they've got previous on this sort of thing.

[View From The Top]

BA and Unite do seem as if they are a match made in hell!

[CB Saint]

You just can't trust BA, they've got previous on this sort of thing.

 

I know they have supposed to have reneged on an agreement they made in 2007, but everyone including BA were "quids in" in 2007 - the economic landscape now is somewhat different.

[notnowcato]

BA and Unite do seem as if they are a match made in hell!

 

BA staff and Unite do.

 

The staff have fallen for this "frightened and bullied" line.

 

Good unions definitely have a place in today's society. Unite's actions and quotes may not put them in this bracket.

[View From The Top]

BA staff and Unite do.

 

The staff have fallen for this "frightened and bullied" line.

 

Good unions definitely have a place in today's society. Unite's actions and quotes may not put them in this bracket.

 

BA have history and Willie Walsh usually ends up acting like Bob Crow.

 

Leadership of both are acting like ***ts IMHO.

[Whitey Grandad]

They can't carry on losing money or they'll have to fold. Just like Southampton PLC did.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

It's some time since I have been to Ontario so I don't know the current suituation over there but I do know about nurses and teachers in the Uk and they are the most secure, unproductive cushy numbers that I have ever come across. How many teachers have lost their jobs in the last 11 years? It's just over 10. One main reason why so many are losing their jobs now are because of the enormous millstone that the Public Sector hangs round the necks of the Private. If I'm biased it's because I am fed up with supporting Public-Sector employees who aren't pulling their weight.

 

Do kindly **** off. I pull my ****ing weight just as much as everyone else thank you very much. Just because I wasn't so short-sighted that I thought the private sector was the way to go, I don't think I should be made a scapegoat!

 

If I were you, I would get down off my high horse and suck it up. When the Tories win the election, there will be wave after wave of strike action.

[Gingeletiss]

Ah, that old right-wing mantra; "Unions were needed once (e.g., Victorian England), but they're not needed anymore."

 

This is nonsense. Unions bring better wages and benefits and protect workers from the arbitrary power and inequitable teatment of management.

 

Employees in non-unionised enterprises often benefit from the improvements to working conditions that their compatriots in unionised workplaces bring.

 

Of course, there are some downsides to unionisation, but overall these are mitigated in a big way by the benefits.

 

Lol...........it's all about opinions, isn't it??...the great union Unite, represented me and my coleagues earlier this year...outcome!!!! a loss of £50 and a weeks holiday, and the jobs of three work mates!!

Edited 15 December, 2009 by Gingeletiss

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

If you're not up to the job then get out and let someone else do it. At least you're not working with an axe hanging over your neck.

 

(not 'you' personally')

 

Spoken like a typical Thatcher-loving c.unt You really do have no idea, you're so far out of touch it is laughable. Who would you rope in then to deal with the abuse, the threats from pupils and parents, the endless paperwork, the endless red-tape that stops me from doing my job? Ex-army officers? No, they would be sacked within a week for hitting one of the pupils if they lipped them off. Someone from the City? No, they wouldn't take the pay cut. Yourself maybe?

 

As someone once said on here (I think it was Arizona), teaching is the only profession where you have to earn respect from the 'ground level' with the people you spend the majority of your day with (i.e. the pupils) rather than having at least mutual respect when you enter an office environment (for arguements sake).

 

Please try getting up out of your 'ex-governor' seat with your 'all knowing' aura and try it one day Grandad; you would not last 5 minutes.

Edited 15 December, 2009 by Thorpe-le-Saint

[do i not like fizzy pop]

My mrs has been senior cabin crew with Virgin for over 15 years, so I do have an insight into things. The fact of the matter is that Virgin crew were commercially aware enough to recognise that striking would be commercial suicide and hence they voted overwhelmingly against strike action despite Unite's attempt to get everyone out.

 

BA crew have the best pay and working conditions of any British Airline, something which was inherited from its nationalised predecessor.

 

I don't know if you have noticed, but the world has changed quite a bit since 2007 as we are now in the worst recession in history. What was acceptable in 2007 is probably totally irrelevant right now.

 

As stated before, the reasons for better pay and conditions were inherited from the nationalised predecessor. A Cabin Services Director earns £50k+ on BA, whilst my Mrs who works in the equivalent rank at Virgin earns nearly half of this, with allowances that are less than half BA. If you are on an old BA contract, you are being paid in the way that cabin crew were paid 20+ years ago. Those recent joiners who are on new contracts are paid the equivalent of other airlines, so it has nothing to do with recruitment costs, qualifications or languages.

 

That's right, cos BA are rolling in it and all this is some secret agenda to screw the workers. I don't know if you have noticed but BA are hemoraging cash and racking up massive losses.

 

Who the hell do BA crew think they are? The crew of other airlines have far more legitimate grievances.

 

Willie has no choice all the while the unions involved - BA could never be a low cost operator, because the Unions won't allow it. Ryan Air (the most successful low cost airline) doesn't even give their crew water during their flights (which is quite important considering increased dehydration whilst flying) - meanwhile the Union are kicking off about pay rises between 2-7% when most (including much of the Public Sector) will be lucky to get anywhere near this.

 

 

 

I heard one bloke on 5 Live's debate this morning go on about the power of the union and that they hold all the trump cards. Sorry, they don't, the CUSTOMER holds the trump cards and the unions need to be taught this very valuable lesson.

 

 

 

Until this month my Mrs had worked 12 years for BA - LGW & LHR short haul and LHR Worldwide so i have a similar insight to yourself. Ths means i have been able to read all the communications she has been sent from BASSA and all those from BA Management. We also have other friends that are crew, not only from BA but Virgin, Qatar, the now defunct Excel. I am also forunate to know ex staff from senior management within both BA and Virgin. I beg to differ on whether Virgin crew were/are more commercially aware - maybe they haven't the same strength in numbers of union membership?

 

There is a small element of staff still on old contracts - sure, there always is in intergrated businesses. This is more than just about pay, i am sure your Mrs can tell you some horror stories about hotel security for crew accomodation in locations such as Detroit or Johanessburg for example?

 

Yes the world has changed 2007, however if your employer had failed to implement an agreement reached almost 3 years ago amid deteriorating relations, would you be inclined to trust them more?

 

Again these old contract holders are now in the minority and any new recruits will be on the new contracts as you say. However the majority of those effected would have been like my Mrs and stand to lose out by virtue of being 'managed out' of the routes that earn any decent allowances which we be given to those on the new contracts - possibly up to a point where you would have to resign.

 

No BA are not rolling in it but the agenda against its cabin crew does exist i assure you (and has done for years).

 

If other airline staff feel they have stronger grievances then they should be pressuring their union to do something about it - oh, they don't have strong union representation do they?

 

Pay rises have very little to do with this - there is a bigger picture. I have not heard the one about Ryan Air and no water for their crew and if true i would think this puts them legally on very dodgy ground certainly under HSE requirements.

 

Only the business customer holds any sort of sway, the rest of Joe Public are seen by most scheduled airlines as a pain in the a**.

 

Remember as a PLC the only responsibility BA has is to its' SHAREHOLDERS. Everyone else can go hang.

[Draino76]

Spoken like a typical Thatcher-loving c.unt You really do have no idea, you're so far out of touch it is laughable. Who would you rope in then to deal with the abuse, the threats from pupils and parents, the endless paperwork, the endless red-tape that stops me from doing my job? Ex-army officers? No, they would be sacked within a week for hitting one of the pupils if they lipped them off. Someone from the City? No, they wouldn't take the pay cut. Yourself maybe?

 

As someone once said on here (I think it was Arizona), teaching is the only profession where you have to earn respect from the 'ground level' with the people you spend the majority of your day with (i.e. the pupils) rather than having at least mutual respect when you enter an office environment (for arguements sake).

 

Please try getting up out of your 'ex-governor' seat with your 'all knowing' aura and try it one day Grandad; you would not last 5 minutes.

 

 

You are a rude, arrogant and obviously insecure about how lazy you are.

[stevegrant]

Back on topic, please. It's been dealt with.

[John B]

Until this month my Mrs had worked 12 years for BA - LGW & LHR short haul and LHR Worldwide so i have a similar insight to yourself. Ths means i have been able to read all the communications she has been sent from BASSA and all those from BA Management. We also have other friends that are crew, not only from BA but Virgin, Qatar, the now defunct Excel. I am also forunate to know ex staff from senior management within both BA and Virgin. I beg to differ on whether Virgin crew were/are more commercially aware - maybe they haven't the same strength in numbers of union membership?

 

There is a small element of staff still on old contracts - sure, there always is in intergrated businesses. This is more than just about pay, i am sure your Mrs can tell you some horror stories about hotel security for crew accomodation in locations such as Detroit or Johanessburg for example?

 

Yes the world has changed 2007, however if your employer had failed to implement an agreement reached almost 3 years ago amid deteriorating relations, would you be inclined to trust them more?

 

Again these old contract holders are now in the minority and any new recruits will be on the new contracts as you say. However the majority of those effected would have been like my Mrs and stand to lose out by virtue of being 'managed out' of the routes that earn any decent allowances which we be given to those on the new contracts - possibly up to a point where you would have to resign.

 

No BA are not rolling in it but the agenda against its cabin crew does exist i assure you (and has done for years).

 

If other airline staff feel they have stronger grievances then they should be pressuring their union to do something about it - oh, they don't have strong union representation do they?

 

Pay rises have very little to do with this - there is a bigger picture. I have not heard the one about Ryan Air and no water for their crew and if true i would think this puts them legally on very dodgy ground certainly under HSE requirements.

 

Only the business customer holds any sort of sway, the rest of Joe Public are seen by most scheduled airlines as a pain in the a**.

 

Remember as a PLC the only responsibility BA has is to its' SHAREHOLDERS. Everyone else can go hang.

 

So what are you saying?

[stevegrant]

Looks like BA have got lawyers on the case.

 

Presumably one of them is "Mr Loophole" as they believe there are "irregularities" in the strike ballot which they claim led to staff who had already left or were in the process of leaving BA.

 

Oops.

[Hatch]

BA will go tits up, The Government will be forced to bail them out.

 

All at the cost of the tax payer. ie me. Merry Christmas.

[Johnny Bognor]

Until this month my Mrs had worked 12 years for BA - LGW & LHR short haul and LHR Worldwide so i have a similar insight to yourself. Ths means i have been able to read all the communications she has been sent from BASSA and all those from BA Management. We also have other friends that are crew, not only from BA but Virgin, Qatar, the now defunct Excel. I am also forunate to know ex staff from senior management within both BA and Virgin. I beg to differ on whether Virgin crew were/are more commercially aware - maybe they haven't the same strength in numbers of union membership?

 

There are over 4300 Virgin cabin crew members that are signed up to Unite, which is pretty much all of them. My mrs is a member (and trust me, I seeth at the sight of her union dues and normally have to go and sit down in a padded cell to calm down :mad::mad::mad:).

 

I read the communications from Unite in relation to Virgin during the summer and Unite were just trying to stir up a fight - pure and simple. :smt074

 

I think the cabin crew decision not to not strike at Virgin is down to the mindset and the culture within the company. RB is the champion of free enterprise and the culture at Virgin is one in which the employees believe in the brand values. BA being a former nationalised company has strong Union roots (as does any similar company like the RM for example) and the mindset of the people is therefore very "public sector", if you catch my drift. :smt008

[View From The Top]

So what are you saying?

 

No one likes people in coach class and the shareholder is king!

[Gemmel]

Whilst I have no doubt that the staff have some genuine issues, (Of which BA are at fault) there can be no excuse for striking over Christmas and ultimately cutting of the hand that feeds you. The public will quite rightly judge them and act accordingly. So when those that strike enjoy their time off - get used to it, because you'll have a lot more time on your hands when the company goes bust - Or is reborn into something else.

 

The whole commercial world has changed and not least the airline industry and it wll be the companies that adapt that survive. Does that mena BA have to become another Ryan air - Ive no idea, but if the strike goes ahead theres more chance of them being a "lakers", than a Ryan air

[View From The Top]

There are over 4300 Virgin cabin crew members that are signed up to Unite, which is pretty much all of them. My mrs is a member (and trust me, I seeth at the sight of her union dues and normally have to go and sit down in a padded cell to calm down :mad::mad::mad:).

 

I read the communications from Unite in relation to Virgin during the summer and Unite were just trying to stir up a fight - pure and simple. :smt074

 

I think the cabin crew decision not to not strike at Virgin is down to the mindset and the culture within the company. RB is the champion of free enterprise and the culture at Virgin is one in which the employees believe in the brand values. BA being a former nationalised company has strong Union roots (as does any similar company like the RM for example) and the mindset of the people is therefore very "public sector", if you catch my drift. :smt008

 

BA is been a listed company for how long? 20 years? 25?

 

You cannot say we can't blame Thatcher because it was so long ago and then say that a 1/4 of a century has passed but a private company is still wedded to a time before Thatcher.

 

How many BA staff were there 25 years ago? Not the majority I'll wager.

 

That said, the union and staff have miss judged the mood of the people about this and are signing their own redundency letters with their action.

[Johnny Bognor]

BA is been a listed company for how long? 20 years? 25?

 

You cannot say we can't blame Thatcher because it was so long ago and then say that a 1/4 of a century has passed but a private company is still wedded to a time before Thatcher.

 

How many BA staff were there 25 years ago? Not the majority I'll wager.

 

That said, the union and staff have miss judged the mood of the people about this and are signing their own redundency letters with their action.

 

Thatcher has gone, whilst the unions (within BA and RM) are still here.

 

Company culture does evolve over time, however it is no coincidence that former nationalised companies are heavily unionised....... BA and the Royal Mail are both private yet have had many years of industrial dispute. Look at their competitors and you'll see that they have had little or no industrial action at all.

 

Do BA employees get a worse deal than their counterparts?

 

No way and they KNOW it.

[View From The Top]

Thatcher has gone, whilst the unions (within BA and RM) are still here.

 

 

Thatcher has gone but the tories are still here but we both know that they aren't the party of Thatcher and the same applies to the unions.

 

You can't have it both ways.

[do i not like fizzy pop]

So what are you saying?

 

Like everything there are two sides to this debate and it has been very one sided on here and in the media.