Daren W Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Now considering the indecent haste in which the powers that be rushed to give us a ten point penalty, am I the only one wondering what a Premier league club has to do to incur any kind of points penalty? Question. As a League One/Former Championship club is it one rule for one, one for another? If we were a Premiership club last year would things have turned out differently?
Cricketphilly Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 But they have not gone into administration or am I missing something?
stevegrant Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 The fact that they're not in administration yet would probably be your answer, Daren. Until such time, they won't get any sanctions.
Saint Richard of Woolston Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 I seem to remember they will only have so long to sort this out until the PFA steps in. Once that happens, penalties are fairly automatic. It does also hint at the fact that Administration is not too far away and we know what can happen there, don't we. The amount of cash sloshing around the middle east aint what it used to be.
Daren W Posted 4 December, 2009 Author Posted 4 December, 2009 The fact that they're not in administration yet would probably be your answer, Daren. Until such time, they won't get any sanctions. True, but I think we're missing a point here. Whilst administration is one reason for a point penalty what about financial irregularities? Luton, unless I'm mistaken had a 10 point deduction turned into a 30 point one because of financial irregularities? To get to a state where you fail to pay your players twice in one season, what will it take before the FA/Premier League/Whatever take some sort of action be it points or cash or further embargoes? The answer is, as long as they're a Premiership club, nothing will happen...
saintjay77 Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Trouble is, its not the league that will or can put them into administration. The PFA can step in and impose sanctions on them for not paying the players but until the owners or banks refuse to support them with money they will remain out of admin. If there is a bank involved then its only a matter of time before it cuts its loss's and goes for the admin route. But I thought this Saudi bloke is drawing funds from rich people rather than from rich banks. Not sure how that would work in them forcing pompey into admin though. What will probably happen is come January most of the players will be sold off to get the wage bill down and settlments will be made with players via the PFA to cover what they may be owed. Pompey will fall like a stone and some rich people will be out of pocket. The jammy gits will prob never get anywhere near admin and therefor not see any - points. They wont need the points deduction anyway as without there big earners they are a crock of crap so will relegate themselves soon enough.
Greenridge Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 The fact that they're not in administration yet would probably be your answer, Daren. Until such time, they won't get any sanctions. Would be quite ironic if one of the Pompey players (creditors) pushed them into Admin by calling in their debt.
allsaintsnocurves Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Gordon Taylor has already stated that Pompey's plight is being looked at and is becoming an embarrassment at the PFA. They will have to take action soon if Pompey don't sort it out...as a case like this has never happened in the Premierleague before i'm not surprised that they haven't done anything yet...but they will use Pompey to set a precedent for other clubs...like they did with Saints. some form of point deduction for financial irregularities even though they aren't in administration could be the way to go!
stevegrant Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 True, but I think we're missing a point here. Whilst administration is one reason for a point penalty what about financial irregularities? Luton, unless I'm mistaken had a 10 point deduction turned into a 30 point one because of financial irregularities? To get to a state where you fail to pay your players twice in one season, what will it take before the FA/Premier League/Whatever take some sort of action be it points or cash or further embargoes? The answer is, as long as they're a Premiership club, nothing will happen... As yet, they haven't failed to pay their players. They were late paying them September's wages and they will presumably be late paying them November's wages. It's only once they actually fail to pay them at all that they are then in breach of contract with the players. The Luton 10-point deduction was for irregular payments to agents - all payments must go through the football club so they can be properly accounted for by the FA, but their former directors made some payments through the holding company. The remaining 20 points was because they failed to exit administration with an accepted CVA - for the third time. Leeds had a 15-point deduction as it was the first time, and Bournemouth and Rotherham both had 17-point deductions as it was the second time they'd done it. Edit to add: Luton's 10-point deduction was imposed by the Football Association, the 20-point deduction by the Football League under their own respective rules.
Scummer Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 As yet, they haven't failed to pay their players. They were late paying them September's wages and they will presumably be late paying them November's wages. It's only once they actually fail to pay them at all that they are then in breach of contract with the players. How late does something have to be before it's judged to be failing to pay? If the contracts state the players will be paid on x day of the month, and they aren't, then surely they become on breach of contract at that point?
Window Cleaner Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Would be quite ironic if one of the Pompey players (creditors) pushed them into Admin by calling in their debt. Receivership, don't think anyone can push you in to admin. It is a voluntary step (or so I think).
stevegrant Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 How late does something have to be before it's judged to be failing to pay? If the contracts state the players will be paid on x day of the month, and they aren't, then surely they become on breach of contract at that point? Not a clue, to be honest. I would imagine it's written into their contract that they will generally be paid on X day, but that the club has until Y before the contract has been breached.
South Londoner Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 If a particular pay date is mentioned in your contract, your employer is technically in breach of it even if it is just one day late.
Horley CTFC Saint Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Now considering the indecent haste in which the powers that be rushed to give us a ten point penalty, am I the only one wondering what a Premier league club has to do to incur any kind of points penalty? Question. As a League One/Former Championship club is it one rule for one, one for another? If we were a Premiership club last year would things have turned out differently? To be honest I'm very sad at this latest news. It should be of great concern to all of us that this is happening to a Premier League club even Poopey. Remember our turn around this season is largely predicated on the good will of one individual. If Poopey are seen to fail as a Premier League club what hope the rest of us?
Torres Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 To be honest I'm very sad at this latest news. It should be of great concern to all of us that this is happening to a Premier League club even Poopey. Remember our turn around this season is largely predicated on the good will of one individual. If Poopey are seen to fail as a Premier League club what hope the rest of us? I'm hopeful that somebody in the Prem will go pop and prove a salutory lesson to all other clubs regarding spending far more than they could ever hope to afford. The sooner all football clubs are run on a sound financial basis the better imo - and that includes us. I want us to be able to stand on our own two feet when Marcus walks away and be prepared for that whenever it happens. If the club that serves as a warning to all others in the Prem is Pompey, all the better as far as I'm concerned.
VectisSaint Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Question. As a League One/Former Championship club is it one rule for one, one for another? If we were a Premiership club last year would things have turned out differently? Yes it is. Rules for Premiership teams are from the Football Association (FA). Rules for Championship/League 1/League 2 are from the Football League. Football League teams are additionally subject to FA sanctions (as evidenced by Luton's points deductions for irregular payments). The Football League and the Football Association are completely different entities, the FL is affiliated to the FA like every other league in England.
merrimd Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 To get to a state where you fail to pay your players twice in one season, what will it take before the FA/Premier League/Whatever take some sort of action be it points or cash or further embargoes? Didn't we fail to pay our players on time, twice, though? In fairness, we didn't get any points deducted for that either.
Guest Dark Sotonic Mills Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 How late does something have to be before it's judged to be failing to pay? If the contracts state the players will be paid on x day of the month, and they aren't, then surely they become on breach of contract at that point? You are right Scummer. Any player who has not been paid on time (and that means in cash or direct credit transfer not by cheque, has had his contract breached by his employers. He has the right to go to an Employment Tribunal for the breach. If this happens enough times (twice should be enough) then he can probably claim that the employers have repudiated their contract and can walk out and claim constructive dismissal; hence becoming a free agent.
Pilchards Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 How does putting a club in adminstration ever help them? Pompey recently can be seen as trying to solve the problem by totally selling every asset they had and they are begging anyone to bail them out right now and that's why I think the FA will help them. IMHO they overspent 2 seasons ago to chase the dream and it deserves to struggle because it will show other clubs what could happen to them too.
brightspark Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 I can't understand Skatesmouth now. > A few weeks ago, Storrie expects the transfer ban to be lifted in the 'next few days'. > Now, they can't afford to pay their players > So therefore they must be nowhere near paying off other clubs, the dirty dealing sh**s > Yet Storrie still thinks it will be lifted sometime this month > AND ON TOP OF THAT Grant believes he has money to spend Clearly, the rogue traders would have a field day investigating this farce of a disgusting football club.
Horley CTFC Saint Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 I'm hopeful that somebody in the Prem will go pop and prove a salutory lesson to all other clubs If that happens it will be more than a salutory lesson it will herald some very difficult times for all clubs - things have to change but not through a Prem club going 'pop' - because of the likely repercussions of such an occurrence it would be a disaster for most of our clubs
saintjay77 Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 How does putting a club in adminstration ever help them? Pompey recently can be seen as trying to solve the problem by totally selling every asset they had and they are begging anyone to bail them out right now and that's why I think the FA will help them. IMHO they overspent 2 seasons ago to chase the dream and it deserves to struggle because it will show other clubs what could happen to them too. Having new owners didnt help Luton out when the FA/League punished them for the previous owners mistakes. I see what your saying but if the FA was going to help a club out because its not being naughty any more then I would have taken over at SFC and run up millions in debt so we have the best players then go bankrupt. Let Marcus have the club for a quid and have the FA help him out cause he will do things properly from now on. I think actions need to be taken to force all clubs to run in the black rather than in the red. Or set a limit according to earnings on how far in the red clubs can go. Say 10% of there value can be debt but the rest of funds need to be debt free. That might not help the smaller clubs get bigger too quick but it will stop all clubs running the risk of owing more than they can afford. It might actually put a few of the big clubs in trouble right now. But its probably the smaller clubs trying to emulate the bigger clubs with massive amounts of debt that is causeing some of the problems.
Sold To The Man @ The Bar Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 (edited) As yet, they haven't failed to pay their players. They were late paying them September's wages and they will presumably be late paying them November's wages. It's only once they actually fail to pay them at all that they are then in breach of contract with the players.. Sorry Steve but they have Failed, they will be contractually obliged to pay wages and bonus payments on a specific date or reoccurring day (Last Friday of the Month) I know of no contracts other than temp workers that have a within X of a date. Employment contracts are a legally binding document to protect both the employer and the employee, I would hazard a guess that the ones in football have been written by top employment law specialists and will spell out the exact date of any payments. IMHO this is breach of contract and the players are within their rights to withdraw labour until a satisfactorily solution has been agreed. However if it ended up in court an employment tribunal may say that this was unfair to withdraw labour as the club would not be able to trade their way into playing the players, they are funny like that. Edited 4 December, 2009 by Sold To The Man @ The Bar
Bearsy Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 I'm thinking of organising a collection for our next home game. Anyone able to help please contact me by PM. Save Our Skates
monsoon Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 I have heard from a pompey work mate that because of the high profile of the premier league, they will not allow any team go into administration. If it get so bad that Pompey look like they are going to fold then they will keep them afloat until the end of the season hoping that they will be relegated. the premier league is a worldwide brand and will pay to keep a club afloat so as not to damage it. Maybe it is wishful thinking on their part if it does happen, we will have to wait and see.
Verbal Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 I'm thinking of organising a collection for our next home game. Anyone able to help please contact me by PM. Save Our Skates Real dilemma, this. Should I consider throwing a decisive contribution into your tin, or instead buy the blueberry muffin staring back at me in Starbucks. Muffin.
david in sweden Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Trouble is, its not the league that will or can put them into administration. The PFA can step in and impose sanctions on them for not paying the players but until the owners or banks refuse to support them with money they will remain out of admin. If there is a bank involved then its only a matter of time before it cuts its loss's and goes for the admin route. But I thought this Saudi bloke is drawing funds from rich people rather than from rich banks. Not sure how that would work in them forcing pompey into admin though. What will probably happen is come January most of the players will be sold off to get the wage bill down and settlments will be made with players via the PFA to cover what they may be owed. Pompey will fall like a stone and some rich people will be out of pocket. The jammy gits will prob never get anywhere near admin and therefor not see any - points. They wont need the points deduction anyway as without there big earners they are a crock of crap so will relegate themselves soon enough. I don't have a " private source " for this statement BUT reading between the lines, I can see a lot of countries / banks had invested in the " Dubai Bubble " and you can bet that a lot of Middle East investors would have had money in a " local project ". As the bottom has almost dropped out of the M.E. Stock Exchange.... I think that it won't be the last month that Po*pey players will have to wait to get paid...there will be worse to come.
S-Clarke Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 I have heard from a pompey work mate that because of the high profile of the premier league, they will not allow any team go into administration. If it get so bad that Pompey look like they are going to fold then they will keep them afloat until the end of the season hoping that they will be relegated. the premier league is a worldwide brand and will pay to keep a club afloat so as not to damage it. Maybe it is wishful thinking on their part if it does happen, we will have to wait and see. Wouldn't suprise me in the slightest. The premeir league cannot wait to get this joke club out of their competition.
Matthew Le God Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 I have heard from a pompey work mate that because of the high profile of the premier league, they will not allow any team go into administration. Thats rubbish. The Premier League can't stop a team going into administration. If it is going to happen it will happen because creditors and banks have had enough.
Bearsy Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Thats rubbish. The Premier League can't stop a team going into administration. They can if they pay Pompey's bills for them.
Clapham Saint Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 They can if they pay Pompey's bills for them. If it came to that it would NOT be a small bill. If Standard Chartered (or a.n. other charge holder ant to appoint an administrator the "paying of the bill" will be millions.
Matthew Le God Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 They can if they pay Pompey's bills for them. No chance. They'd be uproar from the other Premiership sides.
macthesaint Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Nice one,I'm more concerned that Watford have been given a £1million league loan to help them out!
Clapham Saint Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Nice one,I'm more concerned that Watford have been given a £1million league loan to help them out! I think it was a loan from their chairman rather than the F.A./league
Matthew Le God Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Nice one,I'm more concerned that Watford have been given a £1million league loan to help them out! Why does that concern you? That £1m was from Watford chairman Jimmy Russo.
RedAndWhite91 Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Did I just hear correctly on the news that a faction of Pompey players have publicly expressed concern about not getting paid? I wasn't really listening but sure that's what it said.
Daren W Posted 4 December, 2009 Author Posted 4 December, 2009 Thats rubbish. The Premier League can't stop a team going into administration. If it is going to happen it will happen because creditors and banks have had enough. Now that's my point... Will the authorities give them all the leeway in the world or be like they were with us and leap into action at the slightest excuse. Look at Chelsea and how they're looking forward to the transfer window. It is literally one rule for one, one for another... If Pompey were a Championship club this would all be different...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Now that's my point... Will the authorities give them all the leeway in the world or be like they were with us and leap into action at the slightest excuse. Look at Chelsea and how they're looking forward to the transfer window. It is literally one rule for one, one for another... If Pompey were a Championship club this would all be different... If the banks and creditors call the debt in, it doesn't matter how much leeway the Premier League give the club. Administration will happen in that case.
View From The Top Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 If the taxman doesn't get his ££ shortly they'll be in administration faster than a very, very fast thing.
monsoon Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Thats rubbish. The Premier League can't stop a team going into administration. If it is going to happen it will happen because creditors and banks have had enough. Yes maybe. but could it happen or not. Have they got the power to hold off creditors and protect there product (the premier league) until the end of the season?
qwertySFC Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Because the Blue Circus is in the EPL , Im sure that things may have a bit more flexability as the EPL won't want to be tarnishing thier own image. However this saga has gone on to long now and their time is running out to gets things sorted and they are making the EPL look a bit foolish. Don't really have much sympathy as they were only to quick to take the P*** at our demise , so what comes around goes around. We have struck extremly lucky to gain ML when you look at other teams around who are struggling
Matthew Le God Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Yes maybe. but could it happen or not. Have they got the power to hold off creditors and protect there product (the premier league) until the end of the season? Why would the other 19 Premeirship teams want their money used to help Portsmouth? They'd be uproar amongst the 19 teams if the PL kept them afloat and gave them a chance of staying up. It doesn't tarnish the league if a club goes into admin. It shows the inept management of the club not the Premier League. How would it affect the league?
The boy done well Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Did I just hear correctly on the news that a faction of Pompey players have publicly expressed concern about not getting paid? I wasn't really listening but sure that's what it said. Yes-and they also said that they were seeking to arrange a short term loan to pay the balance. Another loan!!!???
krissyboy31 Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Yes-and they also said that they were seeking to arrange a short term loan to pay the balance. Another loan!!!??? I keep getting phone calls from that company!!
Daren W Posted 4 December, 2009 Author Posted 4 December, 2009 If the banks and creditors call the debt in, it doesn't matter how much leeway the Premier League give the club. Administration will happen in that case. But the problem is the league actively helping them when the powers that be actively sought to not help us... This business with agent payments and now delayed wages, payments etc make me think the authorities are giving Pompey all the leeway they need...
The9 Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 Now that's my point... Will the authorities give them all the leeway in the world or be like they were with us and leap into action at the slightest excuse. Look at Chelsea and how they're looking forward to the transfer window. It is literally one rule for one, one for another... If Pompey were a Championship club this would all be different... Saints ran on goodwill for a few days when late-paying players in July and August this year, no penalties from the Football League for that, and none of them left for free as a result of the contract breaches. And we were a CCC club at the time. They'll get a points deduction if they go into Admin, and not before.
The9 Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 But the problem is the league actively helping them when the powers that be actively sought to not help us... This business with agent payments and now delayed wages, payments etc make me think the authorities are giving Pompey all the leeway they need... But they're different "powers that be" acting, and in different circumstances (admin/no admin so far). You can't accuse two different entities of inconsistency because they haven't acted the same in two different situations ?! The agent payments thing got them a ban from transfers, we didn't do that and weren't penalised, so what's the issue there ?
stevegrant Posted 4 December, 2009 Posted 4 December, 2009 But the problem is the league actively helping them when the powers that be actively sought to not help us... This business with agent payments and now delayed wages, payments etc make me think the authorities are giving Pompey all the leeway they need... I strongly suspect the Premier League will ultimately end up doing diddly squat for Pompey. They'll cease to be a member of the PL when they're relegated in May anyway, so they'll be able to completely wash their hands of the situation. If it were a club likely to remain in the PL, I would expect the PL to help them out because of the potential damage to the Premier League "brand" - as hideous as that sounds, that's what the big cheeses there are concerned about.
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