Lowe...

[JackFrost]

Lowe, Wilde & Crouch

 

All as bad as each other.

[sadoldgit]

Something SOGGY cannot grasp since he never goes.

 

SOGGY never comments on the team or the matches, I notice.

 

All he does is come on here to support his agenda or the personalities behind it, and to stalk people like me that are most outspoken about his agenda.

 

If people question my support of SFC, I'd hate to think what they feel about SOGGYs "support".

 

At least I am interested in the team, not just the politics.

 

Carry on with your playground namecalling Alpine, it just re-inforces your image as a childish knee-jerk reactionary. "Never goes" - I probbaly go to as many matches as you do and what as much on TV as you do in which case you "never go" either.

 

Like any rational grown up I read threads and comment when I feel moved to do so. I don't watch the progress of previous employees in the hope that they will trip up and I can rush on here and slag them off.

 

Pray tell, what exactly is my agenda do you think?

 

You don't know do you so I will help you out.

 

My so-called "agenda" is support the club and to hope that everyone connected with it does the best and does well.

 

To me supporting the club does not include slagging certain people off at every available opportunity.

 

I distinctly remember one prominent poster coming on her and tellin us all that George BUrley was deliberately going out of his way to ensure we would not get promoted. You will probbaly remember that person too Alpine!

 

That person has an "agenda" and peddles it at every availble opportunity. I, for my sins, try and balance up that "agenda" with one that is not based on small minded pettiness and vindictiveness.

 

Guided Missile and Jonah are people named as having an "agenda" in support of a certain past employee. Having spokne to Jonah face to face about said person I can state 100% that Jonah was no supporter of that person...yet the person here with an "agenda" of his own is so blinkered he cannot see beyond anything other than his own prejudices.

 

I don't think that GM has ever come out and said that past employee is the best thing since sliced bread but yet again, because he is not part of the internet lynch mob he gets tarred with the "Luvvie" (what a stupid name) brush.

 

What you and some of your like completely fail to grasp that it is quite possible to engage in a debate without having some weird thing going on about the personalities involved. You can also dispense with the silly name calling and abuse and maybe try to deal with some of the issues in an adult way rather than the usually diversionary tactics and abuse you fall back on whne you don't actually have a leg to stand on.

[alpine_saint]

Carry on with your playground namecalling Alpine, it just re-inforces your image as a childish knee-jerk reactionary. "Never goes" - I probbaly go to as many matches as you do and what as much on TV as you do in which case you "never go" either.

 

Like any rational grown up I read threads and comment when I feel moved to do so. I don't watch the progress of previous employees in the hope that they will trip up and I can rush on here and slag them off.

 

Pray tell, what exactly is my agenda do you think?

 

You don't know do you so I will help you out.

 

My so-called "agenda" is support the club and to hope that everyone connected with it does the best and does well.

 

To me supporting the club does not include slagging certain people off at every available opportunity.

 

I distinctly remember one prominent poster coming on her and tellin us all that George BUrley was deliberately going out of his way to ensure we would not get promoted. You will probbaly remember that person too Alpine!

 

That person has an "agenda" and peddles it at every availble opportunity. I, for my sins, try and balance up that "agenda" with one that is not based on small minded pettiness and vindictiveness.

 

Guided Missile and Jonah are people named as having an "agenda" in support of a certain past employee. Having spokne to Jonah face to face about said person I can state 100% that Jonah was no supporter of that person...yet the person here with an "agenda" of his own is so blinkered he cannot see beyond anything other than his own prejudices.

 

I don't think that GM has ever come out and said that past employee is the best thing since sliced bread but yet again, because he is not part of the internet lynch mob he gets tarred with the "Luvvie" (what a stupid name) brush.

 

What you and some of your like completely fail to grasp that it is quite possible to engage in a debate without having some weird thing going on about the personalities involved. You can also dispense with the silly name calling and abuse and maybe try to deal with some of the issues in an adult way rather than the usually diversionary tactics and abuse you fall back on whne you don't actually have a leg to stand on.

 

What name-calling is that then, SOGGY ?

[sadoldgit]

What name-calling is that then, SOGGY ?

 

I rest my case.

[alpine_saint]

I rest my case.

 

You really are the most banal and tedious person on this site. You think repeating the same bullsh*t day-in, day-out until you wear people down by attrition is somehow being "adult". Its pathetic.

 

And despite you protestations to the contrary, you NEVER discuss the team or the matches, the only thing that animates you is Lowe and Burley. That is why you are a "Luvvie", and not a real fan.

[Frank's cousin]

The source of much of my frustration during those last few Lowe years was actually aimed towards those fans who felt the decisions taken by the then board, where done so because Lowe simply had no clue, or worse, rather than perhaps acknowledging that although there were certainly errors, and important ones at that made by Lowe and his board, it was hardly a unique situation amongst the boards of many clubs... but many Saints fans did seem to have a more rigorous hatred of the man, and thus were less willing to let him make those mistakes than chairman at other clubs... whether this was a legacy of the feeling generated by the reverse takeover, his background, or his inabilty to judge the tone of his communications with fans, I dont know, everyone will know and have their own reasons.

 

The examples I choose below are not based on 'facts', but include speculation and my own opinion. They are NOT intended to defend any actions, but maybe offer an alternative perspective to those that seem only to see the situation from the black and white perspective.

 

We have heard the battle rage around whether Lowe ever did any good... the first one that comes up is the stadium. Those totally opposed to Lowe refute he was in any way a positive contribution citing the '**** up' over stoneham.

 

BUt think of it this way - a new stadium had been muted before on several occasions, but the previous boards had been unable to convince the planners or financiers. With the advent of the premier league came the potential to fund such a project with the revenue streams necessary to provide a compelling argument to the banks. So we could say that its the sky millions that first made this a potential reality for a club without a sugar daddy. So what was wrong with the plans at Stoneham?... only 26000, well, at the time those plans were first drawn up, that would have been adequate as we saw in 2001/2002 it was only for games against the top 4 or so that we got above that figure or there abouts.... and it was the popularity that came with the SUCCESS in 2003 that saw 24500 ST holders... The board and Lowe 'ballsed up' on wanting the additional development... uhm, well a little blinkered that. The truth is that planning was not granted due to objections from Eastleigh - whatever folks opinions on new developments impacting on town centers, the truth is that it happens all the time, just look at what TESCO's have done in decimating local traders. The arguments for a new stadium and leasiure complex were pretty solid from SFCs perspectives, the revenue streams would have helped fund the project and also provide additional income for the club - as we see successfully at Bolton and various other clubs who have gone down that route. So it was not a '****-UP' but a planning decision that some will agree with and others wont.

 

I would also not be too sychophantic to the council who'rescued us' - They knew they were on a backlash from fans had they not found suitable ground for us to develop having quashed stoneham... not exactly an election winning approach... and by that time it was recognised that 26k would not be enough so up it went to 32K which could be argued showed some ambition? My questions to those who blame Lowe for the stoneham '**** up' is do they recognise the value there was in a leisure complex commercially, and 2, woudl they have said the same had the same decision been made by say a sugar daddy who was funding it himself and that had also fallen through? Because to be completely unbiassed as you say you are, it should not have made a blind bit of difference.... be honest with yourselves for a moment there.

 

 

The second biggy, and one that is highlighted as a true indicator that Lowe was not a football man, was his 'lack of support' for Strachan in 2003 after the cup final. I have asked the same question every so often as to how the funding for the kind of progress fans and to some extent Strachan wanted was going to found. We could have made savings by reducing the squad, but we would still have had to find the 12 mil, and more importantly made a substantial alteration in the wage structure which looking at the accounts was simply NOT affordable long term without a serious cash injection. NOw I am not saying that more should not have been done to build on the 2003 success, but the decisons taken at the time are not unique to Lowe and from a purely economic argument did make sense - indeed if asked, totally independently asuming Lowe was not in charge at the time, but knowing what we have recently been through with Admin, how many fans would realistically say it would have been worth the risk to take a punt on borrowing 15 mil or so on top of the stadium debt to see if we could get top 6?

 

I totally understand the fans desire to see their club show ambition and take risk to give fans something back, but look at where that can get you...Pompeys current woes whilst viewed with a certain degree of schardenfreude are systemic of the 'ambition/risk before pragmatism approach... lots of happy fans until it all goes tits up.

 

So my next question is had it not been lowe who made that decison not to risk more loans, but a sugar daddy who had already contributed to a new stadium, what would we have thought? The natural reaction is to say that previous investment would have given such a sugar daddy more grace, but we are not talking about what is deserved... but about the pros and cons of the DECISION and its the same who ever makes it and whatever their history... it will be interesting to see what happens when we get back to the prem, and Pards asks for 25 mil from ML after getting us in the top 8 and ML says no?

 

Neither of the above contributed to relegation and our demise in footballing terms anyway, and I have to admit that the manager decision making was at times perplexing and at others bonkers no matter what 'rationale' is offered. Yes I admire the attidude of rewarding loyalty, but not at the expense of ability. I will admit I tried to defend certain managerial appointments at times - partly because i felt it was a more positive approach and in part simply to counter the constant whinging, and yes some of thsoe decisions really did have a major impact on our survival chances... but so did poor form and lack of moral and that was something even such a 'great manager' as Harry 'chequebook' Redflaps could do nothing about...

 

I will no doudt get a few snide remarks about still' 'defending Lowe' - I will reiterate once again, it has nothing to do with defending Lowe, he is history and its frankly not necessary, but I do think that now that he has gone, we should be able to look at the decisions made at the time more objectively and acknowledge that alot of the outrage at the decsions, was more to do with another stone(ham) to cast at Lowe and less about the actual merits or otherwise of the decsions made. I think its important because if we want a bright and sustainable future, there will come a time when NC and ML make mistakes or decsiions we as fans feel let down by... and its how we react to this that will play its part in the culture and growth of our club.

[CLOTH EARS]

Who the **** raised the issue of Lowe again? Lets forget about him and MOVE ON!!!

[alpine_saint]

Who the **** raised the issue of Lowe again? Lets forget about him and MOVE ON!!!

 

Not me, squire.

[alpine_saint]

 

The examples I choose below are not based on 'facts', but include speculation and my own opinion. They are NOT intended to defend any actions, but maybe offer an alternative perspective to those that seem only to see the situation from the black and white perspective.

 

 

In other words, a disclaimer for the apologist crap you then proceeded to spout.

 

Your "speculation" and "opinion" about both the Stoneham and the SMS stadium projects is truly f**king bizarre.

[Frank's cousin]

In other words, a disclaimer for the apologist crap you then proceeded to spout.

 

Your "speculation" and "opinion" about both the Stoneham and the SMS stadium projects is truly f**king bizarre.

 

I win the bet - under 30 mins for an Alps response - mine might be 'f**king bizarre' Alps but they are at least based on some sort of reasoning as opposed to the ignorant, unintelligent f*ckwittage your opinions seem to be based on... go on then tell me what actually wrong with my reasoning and actually take some f*cking time to give your oopinion not merely crap on everyone elses post... Jeez

 

PS have you read 'Full time at the Dell'?

[alpine_saint]

I win the bet - under 30 mins for an Alps response - mine might be 'f**king bizarre' Alps but they are at least based on some sort of reasoning as opposed to the ignorant, unintelligent f*ckwittage your opinions seem to be based on... go on then tell me what actually wrong with my reasoning and actually take some f*cking time to give your oopinion not merely crap on everyone elses post... Jeez

 

PS have you read 'Full time at the Dell'?

 

I simply cannot be bothered to dissect your tedious drivel in any detail. I consider it a waste of the precious time I have left on this mortal coil. Every single thing you post on Lowe gives him the benefit of the doubt; the contrast with how you jump down the throat of Crouch speaks volumes.

[Frank's cousin]

I simply cannot be bothered to dissect your tedious drivel in any detail. I consider it a waste of the precious time I have left on this mortal coil. Every single thing you post on Lowe gives him the benefit of the doubt; the contrast with how you jump down the throat of Crouch speaks volumes.

 

Have you read Full Time at the Dell?

[sadoldgit]

You really are the most banal and tedious person on this site. You think repeating the same bullsh*t day-in, day-out until you wear people down by attrition is somehow being "adult". Its pathetic.

 

And despite you protestations to the contrary, you NEVER discuss the team or the matches, the only thing that animates you is Lowe and Burley. That is why you are a "Luvvie", and not a real fan.

 

I do discuss players and matches and other topics, it is just that you prefer to ignore those comments. If you don't think I am a "real fan" that is down to you. But I was there when we won the cup, I have stood in the pouring rain when Charlton hammered us 6-2 and I was crushed up against the wall when it collapsed when we got that vital point at Orient - so in my book I think I have earned the right to say my piece on here just as much as you have.

[Frank's cousin]

I simply cannot be bothered to dissect your tedious drivel in any detail. I consider it a waste of the precious time I have left on this mortal coil. Every single thing you post on Lowe gives him the benefit of the doubt; the contrast with how you jump down the throat of Crouch speaks volumes.

 

NO this is funny... if you are calling it tedious drivel then it implies you have read it , absorbed it and chosn to make a comment because in your esteemed opinion it is full of falsehood, or lies, or whatever... so you are prepared to take the time to read, digest, find fault and post a suitably insulting short ignorant reply, yet not prepared to take the time of actually expressing what is actually your reasoning for your opinion?

 

Words fecking fail me, because with each additinal post, you never fail to reinforce my opinion that you are must have a brain teh size of a walnut.

 

PS have you read 'Full Time at the Dell'?

[Verbal]

'the', Frank, 'the'.

 

Lowe out.

 

Oh, he already is.

[alpine_saint]

NO this is funny... if you are calling it tedious drivel then it implies you have read it , absorbed it and chosn to make a comment because in your esteemed opinion it is full of falsehood, or lies, or whatever... so you are prepared to take the time to read, digest, find fault and post a suitably insulting short ignorant reply, yet not prepared to take the time of actually expressing what is actually your reasoning for your opinion?

 

Words fecking fail me, because with each additinal post, you never fail to reinforce my opinion that you are must have a brain teh size of a walnut.

 

Ah, OK, so anyone who doesnt agree with your apologia or agree to spend time dissecting it, giving you clearly badly-needed attention only so you can dismiss it with "wallnut"-like comments of your own is somehow of extremely limited mental capacity ?

 

You and SOGGY should get a room...

[JackFrost]

Ah, OK, so anyone who doesnt agree with your apologia or agree to spend time dissecting it, giving you clearly badly-needed attention only so you can dismiss it with "wallnut"-like comments of your own is somehow of extremely limited mental capacity ?

 

You and SOGGY should get a room...

 

TBF we're yet to hear your counter-argument yet. . . .

[Frank's cousin]

Oh I am sorry Alps... but there was me thinking that this was a forum...ie you log on because you ahve an interest in disucussing and sharing your opinion and other folks views, rather than reading and simply adding a f*ckwit comment - all I have requested is that just for once in over 10,000 posts you actually provide a valid argument to support one of your 'legendary' putdowns (feck me Sadowitz would be crapping himself) I suggest that given our relative post count size, that I am not the only one seeking attention?

 

 

PS Have you read 'Full time at the Dell?

[alpine_saint]

TBF we're yet to hear your counter-argument yet. . . .

 

You have a long wait. I'm not going to give that bull about the stadium the honour of being taken seriously, espeically considering the rank hypocrisy of the author (his opinion about Crouch)

[Frank's cousin]

'the', Frank, 'the'.

 

Lowe out.

 

Oh, he already is.

 

Yes you are right - I do try you know....

[Frank's cousin]

You have a long wait. I'm not going to give that bull about the stadium the honour of being taken seriously, espeically considering how the rank hypocrisy of the author (his opinion about Crouch)

 

Where did Crouch come into this? Ok so that you dont have to tire your mind on reading it all again... in simple s l o w language, I was merely making a point that now the dust has indeed settled and Lowe is history, is it not time we look at the decision made and judge them not on who made them but on their merits given their circumstances. NOw in the interests of this being a forum for discussion... and to be honest discussion working best when first an opinion is expressed and then someone takes teh time to rspond and express theirs.... I posted one possible opinion based on some factual, some annecdotel evidence and welcome others to respond who might have more factual information to hand... you know the art of converstation...

 

PS Have you read 'Full time at the Dell?'

[alpine_saint]

Where did Crouch come into this? Ok so that you dont have to tire your mind on reading it all again... in simple s l o w language, I was merely making a point that now the dust has indeed settled and Lowe is history, is it not time we look at the decision made and judge them not on who made them but on their merits given their circumstances. NOw in the interests of this being a forum for discussion... and to be honest discussion working best when first an opinion is expressed and then someone takes teh time to rspond and express theirs.... I posted one possible opinion based on some factual, some annecdotel evidence and welcome others to respond who might have more factual information to hand... you know the art of converstation...

 

PS Have you read 'Full time at the Dell?'

 

I did state a fact - you are a Lowe apologist.

 

Really bored with this now, go on, you have the last word.

[Frank's cousin]

I did state a fact - you are a Lowe apologist.

 

Really bored with this now, go on, you have the last word.

 

Have you read full time at the Dell?

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Not me, squire.

 

Sorry folks, twas me! Considering I've been called a Lowe luvvie before I was just wondering if any other supposed "plants" were still here. Again, if you read my posts you realise I'm not a luvvie, but I do love my football team. Do you still regard me as one Alpine?

[Frank's cousin]

Sorry folks, twas me! Considering I've been called a Lowe luvvie before I was just wondering if any other supposed "plants" were still here. Again, if you read my posts you realise I'm not a luvvie, but I do love my football team. Do you still regard me as one Alpine?

 

I do ya evil (^*^%&%$^$£^%(&*()

 

 

:-)

[John B]

PS Have you read 'Full time at the Dell?'

 

No not all of it but I do have a copy of it for sale

[sadoldgit]

Don't think he is going to answer!

 

What amazes me about Lowe is that many people say that he polarised opinions, which is rubbish. That implies that a set number were for him and a set number were agin him.

 

My take on it was that very few supported him unconditionally, a large number hated his guts and a number could see that he made some good and some poor decisions but wasn't the Devil Incarnate and didn't eat babies.

[St_Tel49]

You really are the most banal and tedious person on this site. You think repeating the same bullsh*t day-in, day-out until you wear people down by attrition is somehow being "adult". Its pathetic.

 

And despite you protestations to the contrary, you NEVER discuss the team or the matches, the only thing that animates you is Lowe and Burley. That is why you are a "Luvvie", and not a real fan.

 

Pots and kettles spring to mind.

[The Farmer]

*Backs out of thread quietly*

Edited 5 December, 2009 by The Farmer

[Toadhall Saint]

That regime is now consigned to history why oh why do we still keep raking over old ground?

[Frank's cousin]

Don't think he is going to answer!

 

What amazes me about Lowe is that many people say that he polarised opinions, which is rubbish. That implies that a set number were for him and a set number were agin him.

 

My take on it was that very few supported him unconditionally, a large number hated his guts and a number could see that he made some good and some poor decisions but wasn't the Devil Incarnate and didn't eat babies.

 

Indeed, but you have to remember that to folk like Alps belonging in tghat last category is in his eyes the same thing as being unconditionally in love with Lowe and therefore its impossible to engage in any kind of discussion with the man/child whatever.

 

Interestingly, he also accuses me of being hypocritical and being very black and ahite about mr crouch.... which simply shows he never realy read ay posts and fails to understand tghat my opnion on Mr Crouch is far from Black and White. TYhere were many things about him I admired and others I was cynical of, but I have also always admitted that whilst i disagreed with plenty of CRouch's decisions I KNOW these would have been made in either good faith or through naivity. None of what he did made hime evil in my book, but neither dpo I believe he desered the unconditional love some gave him...

[Frank's cousin]

That regime is now consigned to history why oh why do we still keep raking over old ground?

 

To be fair, I dont think its a case of raking up old ground, but a discussion on how points of view are perceived... in all honesty, my reason for teh long diatribe was because we HAVE moved on, and therefore should look at past decsions through a different set of retroscopes, rather than the ones that perhaps tinted the view. Because this is about learning from it and ensuring we dont go through all that **** again...

[Saint in Paradise]

That regime is now consigned to history why oh why do we still keep raking over old ground?

 

I would like to second that.

[Toadhall Saint]

To be fair' date=' I dont think its a case of raking up old ground, but a discussion on how points of view are perceived... in all honesty, my reason for teh long diatribe was because we HAVE moved on, and therefore should look at past decsions through a different set of retroscopes, rather than the ones that perhaps tinted the view. Because this is about learning from it and ensuring we dont go through all that **** again...[/quote']

 

I agree that we should all learn from the past mistakes - thats what history is for me but TBH how many times do you need to read the story? I'm glad we are where we are now and have moved on. The new regime seem to have "learned" from the past but do you hear them keep harping on about? No didn't think so. They are looking to the future and that is what we all should be doing.

[Give it to Ron]

T

 

We have heard the battle rage around whether Lowe ever did any good... the first one that comes up is the stadium. Those totally opposed to Lowe refute he was in any way a positive contribution citing the '**** up' over stoneham.

 

I would also not be too sychophantic to the council who'rescued us' - They knew they were on a backlash from fans had they not found suitable ground for us to develop having quashed stoneham... not exactly an election winning approach... and by that time it was recognised that 26k would not be enough so up it went to 32K which could be argued showed some ambition? My questions to those who blame Lowe for the stoneham '**** up' is do they recognise the value there was in a leisure complex commercially, and 2, woudl they have said the same had the same decision been made by say a sugar daddy who was funding it himself and that had also fallen through? Because to be completely unbiassed as you say you are, it should not have made a blind bit of difference.... be honest with yourselves for a moment there.

 

/QUOTE]

 

I would disagree with this bit Frank...you clearly do not live in Southampton and give far too much credit to the council doing this for votes and worried about a backlash.

The same councils that have agreed to the closures of Top Rank, ice skating, speedway, bird aviary, The Pier being ravaged and destroyed, loss of Round The World sailing, the pillage of Ocean Village by developers, the complete waste of our waterfront....what anyone thinks arriving on liners can only be..."what a sh1thole".

You make some valid points about old rosey cheeks about not being totally the pantomime villain but boy did he love to dress up in those clothes and ruin any happy ending us fans wanted.

Especially on the remake....can you name me one thing he did on his return that worked?

[BadgerBadger]

I've just realised how boring it's been on here since everything started going rosy for us

[Wopper]

As Rupert almost put us out of business can we not forget the loser.

[Frank's cousin]

''old rosey cheeks about not being totally the pantomime villain but boy did he love to dress up in those clothes and ruin any happy ending us fans wanted.

 

Especially on the remake....can you name me one thing he did on his return that worked?

 

The first bit made me laugh - you do realise I now have this frightening mental image.... arahararar

 

...as to his return... Trying to think of anything good... Is it clutching at too many straws that we are seeing the benefit of playing kids such as Lallana now after they ahd a year of experience ;-)

 

Its true I now live part in Scotland (new proper home) and work darn sarf in Bracknell during the week... so I am not as clued up on The Council situation, but did give that caveat.

 

I had to give up my ST after 10 years this year as I simply would not get to enough games, although try and go to as many as I can during the week etc. Its crap missing them but family first and all that.

 

I think we have been very lucky - we actually got bought by a truely successful businessman - a mark of his success is demonstrated by the faith he shows in Cotese - eg putting trusted people in place to manage and run aspects where his own experience is probably not that great - very clever guy.

 

There is marked contrats there with Lowe, in that whetehr it was ego or arrogance he did seem to want to make all the decisions. The reason I dont have such a downer on him as most is that I am honest enough to recognise that if I was somehow in charge of SFC the biggest mistake I would make is probably teh same, wanting to be hands on in all departments - simply because of the love of the club and passion for it... and i know it would probably be a disaster and I would end up being hated the same way - In a way I think the worst thing that could have happened to Lowe was the success in 2003 as that seemed to cloud his judgement even more.

 

As to him coming back - well that was inevitable the moment Crouch and Wilde fell out - Because Wilde was never going to stay on the sidelines whilst holding a 16% stake, and we know his only way back in. By that time we were in dire straits through a combination of passion (crouch) outweighing pragmatism - we left the downsizing too late - and despite what Alps thinks, I can understand Crouch's decisions, even if I cant agree with them, then again same as with criticism of Lowe from fans its a darn sight easier from the sidelines.

 

I think one of the best things to come out of all the mess though is that hiopefully its readjusted out expectations - made us more willing to accept that growth and success are not our right but need to be earned. We all know fans are fickle, but what we are seeing now is a major rebirth. There will be crap times still, we know that, (if we failed to reach the playoffs by a point, or lost in the final etc - which would then see a few of the best possibly move on next year) but we should also know how lucky we have been.

[Langleysaint]

Lowe ?

[Charlie2008]

Who the **** raised the issue of Lowe again? Lets forget about him and MOVE ON!!!

 

:smt038