Papa Wiago And The Endless Offsides

[greg_hill]

Many of the problems and challenges we are up against this season come down to the lack of preparation time we had and I'm sure this problem with Waigo is one of them.

 

If Pards could have signed him earlier and without a heavy schedule to play, I'm sure he could have hired a translator and got a coach to spend a lot of time helping him to practise staying onside.

 

But give it time, he's still adapting to the English game, and I'm sure he'll improve.

 

One poster mentioned people at the game "abusing" him, I hope he actually meant criticising rather than abusing, anyone abusing a player during the game should be ashamed of themselves.

[JRM]

"He's always offside, he's alwayyss offsiiiddeee, Papa Waigo, he's always offside"

 

and

 

"Stay onside, stay onside, stay onside"

 

Waigo showed signs of class tonight, but just needs to stay onside!! As Bailey said, you have to take the rough with the smooth with him, I agree with that. He has good points and his bad points.

 

 

2 of the most cringeworthy songs i've ever heard. And the fact other than a couple of "come on you reds" it was the loudest the Northam got tonight sums it up.

 

I thought he played ok, mistimed a few runs, but others were due to the midfield not picking up his movement and releasing the ball too late.

[Scummer]

I voted for him as man of the match.

 

So what if he gets caught offside quite a lot. Some of the decisions were incorrect, and it only takes one perfect run to get a goal (as happened last night).

 

Incidentally, Antonio was probably offside just as much, difference is that he doesn't bother running if he knows he's offside so the flag doesn't go up. End result is the same though, the other team get the ball back.

[SaintDonkey]

Waigo was man of the match for me. His endless offsides seem to be an artifact of playing with slightly better players than we have in our midfield - or at least players who were better at spotting runs.

 

Yes it needs work in training - but rather than Papa having the offisde rule explained it's more the rest of the midfield who need work so that they spot the run sooner, before Papa's offside.

[Daren W]

He keeps on being caught offside. The Wycombe game was no exception, so I read. Several times he was offside. I keep seeing people going on about how much a waste of space he is, but I see a super-fast and pretty skillful striker who knows the offside law perfectly well, but keeps getting caught because he is too bloody fast for the linesman and referee. I have personally seen Papa twice this season, and most of his offsides were so bloody marginal, they'd be allowed in the Premiership, where benefit of the doubt seems to be given to the striker most of the time, unlike this league.

 

Is he just too fast for this league and the team at the moment..?

 

The problem with this league is that..

a) the referees and linemen aren't that good

and

b) There are precious few tv replays of the minor calls. You can view just about any minute of a Premiership/Championship game. In League One a lot of the close calls are never replayed. I'd bet quite a few of the offsides flagged aren't actually offside.

[alpine_saint]

Is this a new JK Rowling novel ?

[Lazlo78]

Is this a new JK Rowling novel ?

 

Too late

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=518672&postcount=42

[Saint_clark]

Also p*ssed off with people getting on his back so much - needless to say, I didn't join in with the "he's always offside" chant.

[disconnect]

In a better league with better officials you'll see that he isnt offside half the time he is given off, it's just that he's too fast for the poor linesmen. When i've seen him he's been pretty good, linking up play well and generally looking like a classy striker / winger. Antonio also has potential, but is pretty raw at this stage. However, obviously is super quick which helps! Good to have two quick wingers!

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Is it just me or has St Landrew stumbled upon the plot for an unpublished Harry Potter book with his Thread Title?

 

 

Having not seen him play live either, I wonder from our resident experts how they would compare "The Papa Offsides" with the "BWP Offsides".

 

Reading opinion on here it seems that Papa is getting into positions but it is a matter of minute tweaks to the timing of his runs, whereas with BWP it seemed to be that he was just thick?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Fair assessment - I am not a huge admirer of Papa Waigo and last night was very frustrating but prefer him over BWP any day.

[OldNick]

I was disappointed that the fans sang about him in a negative way. The same nonsense was used against Fuller and look at him now

[derry]

Waigo would get in my team every match. He tracks back, works hard, rarely gives the ball away, hit a beautiful crossfield pass last night, is lightning quick. He lays on goals and gets to the byeline and is regularly getting into the box and scoring some goals.

 

He put one over the top yesterday from close in but nobody else in the team had the pace to even get near it. His cross for the goal was quality as was the cross for Lallana's goal on Saturday.

 

On another occasion last night he got to the byeline and because he was so quick and nobody bust a gut to get into the box, he had to pull it back to the edge of the penalty area for the nearest support strolling up.

 

He is a pretty unique player in this league and his pace makes him pretty near unplayable at times. We couldn't score from play until he joined us and together with Antonio gives us real pace.

 

I would like to see him play alongside Lambert with Antonio wide right. I see him as an alternative to Connolly also as alternatives wide right and left. I think he is a valuable asset.

[JonnyLove]

Last night he was offside a bit but then he is used to playing a different type of game. He was also judged to be offside when he wasn't at least 5 times.

 

Whilst he needs to improve and he did start to in the first half his vision for other players (how unselfish was that pass last night) and his skill on the ball more than make up for it. He was the best player on the pitch in the first half by a mile and didn't get the chance to carry on in the second as that linesman was just waving for the sake of it.

 

Can I just say well done to all the knobs at the back of the Northam for getting on his case thats what you call supporting your team is it. (and for calling him bWP. PW has more talent in his left toe that that thieving tosser). Why did you feel the need to start chanting at Bart that he looks like a Wotsit (funny yes but not needed).

[Brussels Saint]

Its crazy to suggest Papa does not know the offside rule. These pro's live football everyday, reherse, watch, discuss and train. To suggest that even a junior player (let alone one who has been a pro in Serie A and England) would not know the rule seems bizarre considering the amount of time and influence coaches spend with them.

 

How he executes his game is what needs to be worked on by coaches, rather than suggesting to explain the rule in his own language.

 

Papa is clearly a talent, who I think scares/stretches the opposition. I think this has been most effective when playing 4-5-1 from the start and reverting to 4-4-2 later in the game for Antonio and Connelly to exploit (more space, tired defenders etc.). When we have gone 4-5-1 and then later 4-4-2 in games, I'm pretty sure we have been more effective than games where we start 4-4-2. Papa has been a big part of that.

[Saint Mikey]

I was disappointed that the fans sang about him in a negative way. The same nonsense was used against Fuller and look at him now

 

To be fair, I think it was just a bit of banter - not malicious in the slightest. Those same fans gave him a standing ovation when he came off (which he deserved). Don't know why people want to take all the humour out of footy.

 

As for the player, I was more impressed with him in this game than I have been all season. Workrate and pace were fantastic and looked composed at times. The offsides are frustrating, but as already pointed out, not all were valid.

[Whitey Grandad]

Like I said recently linesmen simply cannot keep up and a lot of their decisions are based on hunches these days. Most of the time they are never level with play which is the only place to be to make a fair judgement.

They should be level with the second to last defender and I have verey rarely seen them out of position. Every one of the offsides last night was spot on correct, but that is not the point. It is up to the attacker to play such that he is not given offside. Plenty of others manage to do it without any problems,why can't he? I'm sure that with more specialist training he could be taught to stay onside more.

[St Will]

They should be level with the second to last defender and I have verey rarely seen them out of position. Every one of the offsides last night was spot on correct, but that is not the point. It is up to the attacker to play such that he is not given offside. Plenty of others manage to do it without any problems,why can't he? I'm sure that with more specialist training he could be taught to stay onside more.

 

Watch the way the attack is developing just before he gets offside though. We get the ball in the middle of the park, he makes a good run, the ball is delayed, THEN played to him. It's as much the other players' fault for a) delaying the pass, and b) then playing him the ball, knowing he's offside cuz he made an early run.

 

After a couple of offsides and the people around me started giving him stick, I really had a good look at it. He's used to playing at a higher level, and he simply thinks quicker than the other players in our squad. He must be so frustrated to be fair.

[OldNick]

To be fair, I think it was just a bit of banter - not malicious in the slightest. Those same fans gave him a standing ovation when he came off (which he deserved). Don't know why people want to take all the humour out of footy.

 

As for the player, I was more impressed with him in this game than I have been all season. Workrate and pace were fantastic and looked composed at times. The offsides are frustrating, but as already pointed out, not all were valid.

well some may have thought it was funny but I didnt and some around me also. When Papa went off did you notice his reaction when he went to sit down??? Not happy at all.

[Scummer]

well some may have thought it was funny but I didnt and some around me also. When Papa went off did you notice his reaction when he went to sit down??? Not happy at all.

 

I thought he doesn't even speak English? I'd be amazed if he heard the chants and knew they were about him.

[Aardvark]

I was in a great position to see his offsides in the second half and the lino was spot on in every one of them. You say Waigo 'knows the offide law perfectly well'. I disagree. All the evidence so far this season shows he does not understand the offside law. I'd love to say otherwise and I'm sure there are some who will say he's a professional and of course he knows the law. All the evidence says otherwise.

 

Having said that, as has been pointed out in earlier replies, he set up the goal and in the first half he chased down two apparent lost causes and won two corners. Good for him.

 

As for curing the offsides, AP should hire a top quality referee who is a native speaker of Waigo's mother tongue (French?) and have him explain the law to him together with tactics and techniques to avoid being caught out. The problem has gone on for too long for it to be ignored

 

Thank God for your post! I was beginning to think I was going mad or had been at a different match to most other posters. His constant being caught offside was crass and unforgivable at any level of football. I had a pretty good view last night (and on previous occasions) and found very little to quibble about with the linesmans' decisions. Far from bewitching everyone (officials, other players and fans alike) with his electric undoubted speed he was on several occasions standing in an off side position (by a couple of yards at one point) waiting for a through ball, showing no awareness as to where the last defender was. Antonio wasn't great last night but has shown much more in previous games especially when pushed out further wide and looks a far better player than Papa will ever be.

 

On another point Lambert looked completely knackered towards the end of the game - why was he not replaced?

[Whitey Grandad]

Watch the way the attack is developing just before he gets offside though. We get the ball in the middle of the park, he makes a good run, the ball is delayed, THEN played to him. It's as much the other players' fault for a) delaying the pass, and b) then playing him the ball, knowing he's offside cuz he made an early run.

 

After a couple of offsides and the people around me started giving him stick, I really had a good look at it. He's used to playing at a higher level, and he simply thinks quicker than the other players in our squad. He must be so frustrated to be fair.

There was one occasion in the second half when I was watching him. He was holding his position a couple of yards offside waiting for the pass and of course he was flagged for it as soon as the pass came to him. Every body around me was screaming 'get onside' at him. We can all see it, there's no excuse about playing at a higher level or being too quick for the assistant referee, it's just something that he needs to work at because it cost us posession in several good attacking positions. You simply can't blame the referees, the rest of the team, the lack of a language, and so on....

[Saint Mikey]

well some may have thought it was funny but I didnt and some around me also. When Papa went off did you notice his reaction when he went to sit down??? Not happy at all.

 

LOL. That's because he was subbed and was having a good game. Have you played alot of footy? Who likes coming off, especially if you're playing well? No-one.

[Smirking_Saint]

As someone said on here i think it comes down to him just being used to playing at higher levels then he is here. The timing of his runs are probably dependant on the midfielders etc releasing the balls early and seeing the runs he is making, that they are obviously doing too late or perhaps as others have said, the lino's just get it wrong.

 

He is bloody quick, plus stands on the shoulder most of the game, he will get the odd one wrong but i cannot believe he was offside 10 times or whatever last night. Having run the line, sometimes you do miss things and when you see a massive distance between the man and defender of course you think 'sh*t, he must be offside'

 

I remember talking to a mate who's dad was a well respected ex coach, he spent time at Wolves and gave Ince a boll*cking as he was playing through balls that were just being missed by the other players and then berating them for being sh*t etc etc. So it does make a difference the level you are used to.

 

Stick with him, he is quick, he works hard and gives us a definate edge. Far better than antonio imo

[Whitey Grandad]

He is bloody quick, plus stands on the shoulder most of the game, he will get the odd one wrong but i cannot believe he was offside 10 times or whatever last night. Having run the line, sometimes you do miss things and when you see a massive distance between the man and defender of course you think 'sh*t, he must be offside'

 

No, he was offside on every occasion and it happens every game with different officials on the line. I've changed my mind a bit since the Brighton game where on one occasion our player (Connolly?) seemed to be at least three yards onside so I looked through the recording and to my surprise he was indeed offside. He's better than Antonio, though, and we should be able to beat his offsides out of him.

[Matthew Le God]

When the player passing the ball and the defensive line are along way apart the linesman has a near impossible job. He has to be looking at two areas of the pitch at the exact same time to see the defensive line(and Papa) and the point at which the ball is played(perhaps 40 yards behind). If the linesman looks at the ball and then back to the defensive line at that point Papa could have already made his move and may "look" offside when he wasn't.

 

Of course last night this wasn't always the case and he was actually offside on a few occasions but was relevant in others. He is still a very good player in this league, he really needs some good coaching to tell him that his pace will allow him to delay the run for longer or angle his runs.

[JustMike]

No, he was offside on every occasion and it happens every game with different officials on the line. I've changed my mind a bit since the Brighton game where on one occasion our player (Connolly?) seemed to be at least three yards onside so I looked through the recording and to my surprise he was indeed offside. He's better than Antonio, though, and we should be able to beat his offsides out of him.

 

 

umm no he wasnt! Yes he does get caught alot but i saw at least 2 occasions last night when he bent his run in behind the defence and the lino was nowhere near, the defenders didnt appeal it and yet the flag went up. He had a perfectly good goal disallowed a few games back for off side but wasnt.

[OldNick]

LOL. That's because he was subbed and was having a good game. Have you played alot of footy? Who likes coming off, especially if you're playing well? No-one.

Nobody likes being substituted I agree, but it is hardly the first time he has since being here, but not after the fans had been taking the p###.

Footballers get a massive lift to their egos from adulation, they dont need the fans who they think support them taking the p### so publicly.

If you think it doesnt effect players then you have completely different thoughts to me.

[OldNick]

As for his performance last night , I thought he worked hard and his pace was always a threat.Yes he does need to learn the timing of his runs and understand he can give the defender a yard start. From last nights showing he has more to offer than Antonio who shot from 50 yards and then failed to from a couple, it was comical.

Both will be entertaining and frustrating in equal measure but the the fans should support them not pick at their confidence

[Whitey Grandad]

umm no he wasnt! Yes he does get caught alot but i saw at least 2 occasions last night when he bent his run in behind the defence and the lino was nowhere near, the defenders didnt appeal it and yet the flag went up. He had a perfectly good goal disallowed a few games back for off side but wasnt.

I disagree, of course, but it doesn't matter what you and I think, there's only one person with the flag. Waigo gets given offside far more than any other player in any team that I have seen so far so he must be doing something wrong.

[Whitey Grandad]

As for his performance last night , I thought he worked hard and his pace was always a threat.Yes he does need to learn the timing of his runs and understand he can give the defender a yard start. From last nights showing he has more to offer than Antonio who shot from 50 yards and then failed to from a couple, it was comical.

Both will be entertaining and frustrating in equal measure but the the fans should support them not pick at their confidence

I agree that he's a better option than Antonio but Waigo also 'somehow shot over from three yards', to quote the BBC.

[benjii]

The "luxury player" tag is completely misplaced. He puts in a hell of a lot of work defending.

 

Reminds me of Kachloul who was also not appreciated fully IMO.

[St Will]

I disagree, of course, but it doesn't matter what you and I think, there's only one person with the flag. Waigo gets given offside far more than any other player in any team that I have seen so far so he must be doing something wrong.

 

Blame culture coming out to play again. I sit half way between the goal at the Northam end and the half way line, and in the secon half I'm looking from behind the midfield up to the forwards, and when we won the ball and got the ball in space, Papa right ran into space and set off, and the ball didn't come early enough. Lambert doesn't get caught offside because he generally drops off to receive the ball. Papa needs it over the top, and he isn't getting it. Or if he does get it, it's only after a few short passes, at which point he's already made his run, which mead he has to come back, making him ineffective, or he's caught offside.

 

It's the way the team plays that is the major reason he's caught offside so much. Thing is, do we adapt to make him more effective or do we change his game. I think we need a bit of both. We need to win the ball and deliver it early. That way he won't be offside anywhere near as much.

[Ken Tone]

Thank God for your post! I was beginning to think I was going mad or had been at a different match to most other posters. His constant being caught offside was crass and unforgivable at any level of football. I had a pretty good view last night (and on previous occasions) and found very little to quibble about with the linesmans' decisions. Far from bewitching everyone (officials, other players and fans alike) with his electric undoubted speed he was on several occasions standing in an off side position (by a couple of yards at one point) waiting for a through ball, showing no awareness as to where the last defender was. Antonio wasn't great last night but has shown much more in previous games especially when pushed out further wide and looks a far better player than Papa will ever be.

 

On another point Lambert looked completely knackered towards the end of the game - why was he not replaced?

 

 

Agree comletely about Waigo's offsides. I counted 8 of them by him, with only about 2 or so other offsides by the rest of the team all game. All the ones in the second half definitely were really offside from where I sit in the kingsland, and none of them were down to the other players or the linesman being slow to react. I could understand it if Papa were only 19 and raw like Antonio, but he's 25 (26?).

 

What struck me most was how frustrating it must be for the rest of the team, to have good attacking postions wasted time after time by a (usually) unnecessary offside.

 

Waigo certainly has talent, and creates chances. His speed is a great asset but he's no faster than Antonio ---but he is more skillful. If he'd just sort out the offside thing he'd be a top player. But then maybe that's why Fiorentina let him go.

 

And yes Lambert stopped running towards the end, but I suppose the issue is, who would you bring on instead of him?

 

K.

[saintwarwick]

umm no he wasnt! Yes he does get caught alot but i saw at least 2 occasions last night when he bent his run in behind the defence and the lino was nowhere near, the defenders didnt appeal it and yet the flag went up. He had a perfectly good goal disallowed a few games back for off side but wasnt.

 

I agree with you Mike, he was onside on a couple of occasions and Whitey needs to sort his glasses out if he thought he was offside on every occasion.

[SFKA South Woodford]

When the player passing the ball and the defensive line are along way apart the linesman has a near impossible job. He has to be looking at two areas of the pitch at the exact same time to see the defensive line(and Papa) and the point at which the ball is played(perhaps 40 yards behind). If the linesman looks at the ball and then back to the defensive line at that point Papa could have already made his move and may "look" offside when he wasn't.

 

Of course last night this wasn't always the case and he was actually offside on a few occasions but was relevant in others. He is still a very good player in this league, he really needs some good coaching to tell him that his pace will allow him to delay the run for longer or angle his runs.

 

If that's the case, doesn't it fall on the linesman to make a quick calculation of where he would of been when the ball was played, rather than where he is when it enters his field of vision a few moments later and then make the judgement? Henry was often given the benefit of the doubt by linesmen when he was at Arsenal.

 

You cannot argue that he hasn't made a lot of positive contributions to the performance of our team, his goal and assists in the last two games alone are proof of that, then add in some great tracking back and winning back of possession and he more than makes up for a few offsides in my opinion.

 

I hope we sign him permanantly, as I think he has the class to play not just in the Championship, but possibly also the Premier League with a decent midfield playmaker to supply him with the early balls he needs to show his true worth.

[Scummer]

I agree that he's a better option than Antonio but Waigo also 'somehow shot over from three yards', to quote the BBC.

 

At full stretch, getting on the end of a move which he started himself in our own half.

[saintwarwick]

Agree comletely about Waigo's offsides. I counted 8 of them by him, with only about 2 or so other offsides by the rest of the team all game. All the ones in the second half definitely were really offside from where I sit in the kingsland, and none of them were down to the other players or the linesman being slow to react. I could understand it if Papa were only 19 and raw like Antonio, but he's 25 (26?).

 

What struck me most was how frustrating it must be for the rest of the team, to have good attacking postions wasted time after time by a (usually) unnecessary offside.

 

Waigo certainly has talent, and creates chances. His speed is a great asset but he's no faster than Antonio ---but he is more skillful. If he'd just sort out the offside thing he'd be a top player. But then maybe that's why Fiorentina let him go.

 

And yes Lambert stopped running towards the end, but I suppose the issue is, who would you bring on instead of him?

 

K.

Insert most for all then you would be correct.

[Ken Tone]

Insert most for all then you would be correct.

 

 

Well put it this way. Each time in the second half I said out loud, "Well blow me. He's jolly well offside again" (or words to that effect! ;-) ) BEFORE the linesman's flag went up.

 

First half, I couldn't say from where I am in the kingsland, but second half linesman was right every time.

 

But that is not to say Waigo is rubbish or we shouldn't play him. We just need a good

coach to spend some time with him, an interpretor, and a cattle prod.

 

K.

[OldNick]

I agree that he's a better option than Antonio but Waigo also 'somehow shot over from three yards', to quote the BBC.

I give him a bit of leeway for that miss as he was stretching every sinew to reach the ball and was unfortunate that it just went upwards and not forward.

[Whitey Grandad]

But that is not to say Waigo is rubbish or we shouldn't play him. We just need a good

coach to spend some time with him, an interpretor, and a cattle prod.

We thought an electric collar would be good. My neighbour looked up a translation of 'Ndiaye Papa Waigo' on the internet and it said 'offside pillock', but I don't know what language he was using.

[torsaint]

As a man who has run the line and was immediately opposite the last outfield defender when Waigo was flagged offside in my view he was definitely onside twice if not three times.

[Legod Third Coming]

As a man who has run the line and was immediately opposite the last outfield defender when Waigo was flagged offside in my view he was definitely onside twice if not three times.

 

The problem is (the officials' not Papa's) that he does what all good European players do and runs into an offside position and then back again before the ball is played.

 

When Henry does this it is genuis.

 

When some poor sod does it in League One, the refs and linos are too fecking clueless to see it!

[OldNick]

The problem is (the officials' not Papa's) that he does what all good European players do and runs into an offside position and then back again before the ball is played.

 

When Henry does this it is genuis.

 

When some poor sod does it in League One, the refs and linos are too fecking clueless to see it!

not forgetting a few fans as well.

[Whitey Grandad]

No, let's face it he's offside. In all my experience )and I have run the line quite a few times myself) everyone who has ever been flagged has always blamed the lino. The fellow on the line is trained to do the job and he is independent and he gets it right most of the time, which I would put at better than 95%.

[OldNick]

No, let's face it he's offside. In all my experience )and I have run the line quite a few times myself) everyone who has ever been flagged has always blamed the lino. The fellow on the line is trained to do the job and he is independent and he gets it right most of the time, which I would put at better than 95%.

without a doubt the linesman gets it right more than wrong but they also have bad days and make some awful mistakes.

[RedAndWhite91]

without a doubt the linesman gets it right more than wrong but they also have bad days and make some awful mistakes.

 

Northampton away. Terrible.

[Saint]

It would seem like he doesn't understand it, although he obviously does being a professional. I think it's true that he is just too fast for the defence most of the time and needs to get used this league more.

I'm still not completely sure about him yet. Last night i would have liked to have seen James taken off for Connolly, then move Papa to the right wing, that way we would still have his pace with less chance of the offsides!

[Matthew Le God]

Last night i would have liked to have seen James taken off for Connolly, then move Papa to the right wing, that way we would still have his pace with less chance of the offsides!

 

What game were you watching?

 

1) Connolly was injured and not in the squad.

2) Papa did play on the right wing last night. We started 451 with Papa and Adam out wide then changed to 442 with Papa upfront and Adam and Lloyd out wide and then changed back to 451 late on.

[Saint]

What game were you watching?

 

1) Connolly was injured and not in the squad.

2) Papa did play on the right wing last night. We started 451 with Papa and Adam out wide then changed to 442 with Papa upfront and Adam and Lloyd out wide and then changed back to 451 late on.

 

 

Alright alright.

 

I got into the game late, didn't know Connolly was injured.

[Pancake]

Good names for a band.