Why are we conceding so many goals?

[Leicestersaint]

Well these are all good points but the sad fact is that whatever defence is in front of him Davis concedes too many goals.

[DT]

because he's not a very good goalkeeper.

[John B]

Well, let's have a look at the number of different defenders that Davis had had in front of him since he arrived on 21st July 2006 just ahead of the 2006/7 season.

 

2006/7

Ostlund, Baird, Pele, Bale, Makin, Wright, Lundekvam, Powell.

 

2007/8

Vignal, Wright, Thomas, Makin, Ostlund, Wright, Dailly, Ifil, Scacel, Davies, Bennett, Powell, Lucketti.

 

2008/9

Svensson, Perry, Surman, James, Wotton, Lancashire, Mills, Pearce, Scacel, Saeijs.

 

2009/10

Murty, Harding, Jaidi, Trotman, Thomas, James.

 

Now, I make that 29 different defenders in not even three and a half seasons. Not exactly a settled defence that has experience of playing together, is it? Potentially, the defence that is most settled is the Pardew one, which will be improved by the return of Murty for James.

 

Looking at the other seasons under Burley, Dodd/Gorman and the two Dutch jokers, the defences comprised many who didn't stay long before moving on, short term loans, those prone to injury, callow youths or those well past their sell by date, or others playing out of their natural positions.

 

If Davis is to accept any blame for his shortcomings, then it is only fair that any who disparage his performance over this period, name a better goalkeeper at this level.

 

As for Derry's assertion that it might be better to have a good all round goalkeeper that dominated the penalty area with instant distribution to keep the game going, even if he isn't as good a shot stopper, I disagree. If the keeper fails to be a shot stopper, then a goal is scored, whereas a good strong defence can help a keeper who isn't so dominant and a good midfield can help make something of the keepers distribution.

 

Surely it is far more difficult to make saves when the ball is closer to the keeper? In a crowded defence, there is less room to manoeuvre in, less time to react to a rival's player toe poking in a loose ball. Nothing unusual about those circumstances. It is up to the defence to clear the loose balls in the box if the keeper cannot get to them.

 

 

I would have thought the so called Dutch Jokers know more about football than you or I

 

 

Apart from that I think a very interesting post which I am in agreement with.

 

 

I would have thought most would be happy with Davis for the next couple of years surely West Ham would not have wanted to recruit a poor goalkeeper .

[derry]

A third..... That's is quite a lot so who do you think won't be there?

 

Certainly right back and centre halves, a proper left side midfielder, a strong holding midfielder, strikers and a goalkeeper. If none of the loan signings are kept I would expect even more. James, Trotman, Mellis,maybe Schneiderlin, Lallana, Antonio/Waigo, almost certainly Forecast, Bialkowski, Saganowski, Perry, Thomas plus a bunch of the younger element that aren't in the plans and are not seen as potential championship first teamers. I can see more Bosman player brought in to raise the quality of the squad plus some key quality signings to strengthen the team.

 

I just see the present weaknesses addressed and if decent bids come in for Lallana and Schneiderlin I think they will go.I can see there being no sentiment because next year no excuses will be accepted by the owner and Pardew will know he has to get promoted.

[derry]

Well, let's have a look at the number of different defenders that Davis had had in front of him since he arrived on 21st July 2006 just ahead of the 2006/7 season.

 

2006/7

Ostlund, Baird, Pele, Bale, Makin, Wright, Lundekvam, Powell.

 

2007/8

Vignal, Wright, Thomas, Makin, Ostlund, Wright, Dailly, Ifil, Scacel, Davies, Bennett, Powell, Lucketti.

 

2008/9

Svensson, Perry, Surman, James, Wotton, Lancashire, Mills, Pearce, Scacel, Saeijs.

 

2009/10

Murty, Harding, Jaidi, Trotman, Thomas, James.

 

Now, I make that 29 different defenders in not even three and a half seasons. Not exactly a settled defence that has experience of playing together, is it? Potentially, the defence that is most settled is the Pardew one, which will be improved by the return of Murty for James.

 

Looking at the other seasons under Burley, Dodd/Gorman and the two Dutch jokers, the defences comprised many who didn't stay long before moving on, short term loans, those prone to injury, callow youths or those well past their sell by date, or others playing out of their natural positions.

 

If Davis is to accept any blame for his shortcomings, then it is only fair that any who disparage his performance over this period, name a better goalkeeper at this level.

 

As for Derry's assertion that it might be better to have a good all round goalkeeper that dominated the penalty area with instant distribution to keep the game going, even if he isn't as good a shot stopper, I disagree. If the keeper fails to be a shot stopper, then a goal is scored, whereas a good strong defence can help a keeper who isn't so dominant and a good midfield can help make something of the keepers distribution.

 

Surely it is far more difficult to make saves when the ball is closer to the keeper? In a crowded defence, there is less room to manoeuvre in, less time to react to a rival's player toe poking in a loose ball. Nothing unusual about those circumstances. It is up to the defence to clear the loose balls in the box if the keeper cannot get to them.

 

I think I would prefer at least half of the opposing goalkeepers I've seen this season. The Bristol Rovers goalkeeper was particularly good. I don't like a keeper that can't dominate behind the defence or get a break out underway. Of course a goalkeeper has to be a competent shot stopper but that isn't the be all and end all as it is with Davis.

 

At the moment we don't have an alternative pushing for a place just a reserve goalkeeper. We need a quality alternative to push Davis and if necessary replace him.

Edited 20 November, 2009 by derry

[Teddy Nutkins]

I think I would prefer at least half of the opposing goalkeepers I've seen this season. The Bristol Rovers goalkeeper was particularly good. I don't like a keeper that can't dominate behind the defence or get a break out underway.

 

At the moment we don't have an alternative pushing for a place just a reserve goalkeeper. We need a quality alternative to push Davis and if necessary replace him.

 

I am a little suprised at your feelings about Davis, Dave, as i don't think A.P. is as worried about the keeper commanding his 6 yard box now we have 2 centre half's who are attacking the incoming ball.Of course A.P. would like to see the keeper coming off his line and taking the ball out of the air, but he knows Kelvin won't do it.His shot stopping is good so providing we are trying to to stop the supply from wide, and the two big fellas are winning headers in the box, i don't think a new keeper would be high priority.

 

I do agree though that someone to put Davis under pressure, would be an asset,Bart did look a lot more comfortable against Charlton than i have seen him for quite a while.I also agree that the team sheet will look different come the start of next season maybe 4-5 players in the areas a lot of posters have suggested.

[DT]

I think I would prefer at least half of the opposing goalkeepers I've seen this season. The Bristol Rovers goalkeeper was particularly good. I don't like a keeper that can't dominate behind the defence or get a break out underway. Of course a goalkeeper has to be a competent shot stopper but that isn't the be all and end all as it is with Davis.

 

At the moment we don't have an alternative pushing for a place just a reserve goalkeeper. We need a quality alternative to push Davis and if necessary replace him.

Brighton keeper was top notch too.

[Charlie Wayman]

We have not kept a clean sheet for 12 games. Only 3 clean sheets all season. Something is wrong here. Is it the defence as a whole, lack of pace in the CB's or the lack of a decent holding midfielder. This is really costing us at the moment, 5 points dropped in the last two league games.

 

Please discuss. Any suggestions to be forwarded to AP.

 

It's what happens when you sign other people's rejects.. Why do you think they couldn't get into their own clubs first teams and were allowed to leave. There's none so blind as those that DON'T WANT to see.

[derry]

It's what happens when you sign other people's rejects.. Why do you think they couldn't get into their own clubs first teams and were allowed to leave. There's none so blind as those that DON'T WANT to see.

 

How true is that.

[Wes Tender]

I think I would prefer at least half of the opposing goalkeepers I've seen this season. The Bristol Rovers goalkeeper was particularly good. I don't like a keeper that can't dominate behind the defence or get a break out underway. Of course a goalkeeper has to be a competent shot stopper but that isn't the be all and end all as it is with Davis.

 

At the moment we don't have an alternative pushing for a place just a reserve goalkeeper. We need a quality alternative to push Davis and if necessary replace him.

 

You changed your tune a bit. You had said:-

I personally would prefer a good all round keeper that dominated the penalty area with instant distribution to keep the game going. Even if he isn't as good a shot stopper.

 

Of course he should be a competent shot-stopper you now say, whereas before you would be happy with a goalkeeper who wasn't as good a shot-stopper provided that he dominated the box and gave good instant distribution. I reiterate; a shot-stopping goalkeeper is saving a goal, by definition. A keeper who was not as competent with that skill, would let in several more goals a season for sure, whereas good defenders are capable of mopping up loose balls in the area and negating high balls into the box. There are several arguments that can be made as to how pressure on the goalkeeper can be relieved, including leaving a striker upfield at set pieces, something that Brighton did. I don't think that I have seen a better keeper at home this season. I do not recall any keeper in particular producing a string of heroic saves in a match that denied us the win. Far too often the saves have been because the shots were straight at the keeper.

 

Although it would be nice to have a second string keeper putting pressure on Davis, I don't even believe that he is the sort of person who allows himself to become complacent or allows his standards to drop in a match.

 

I don't change my position that the defence would have let in fewer goals this season if they had had more time to gel early on, if Murty had been injured, if the formation played had secured control of the midfield, etc. Any number of reasons which have been covered by others and from which one of the least reasons was dodgey goalkeeping.

[derry]

You changed your tune a bit. You had said:-

 

 

Of course he should be a competent shot-stopper you now say, whereas before you would be happy with a goalkeeper who wasn't as good a shot-stopper provided that he dominated the box and gave good instant distribution. I reiterate; a shot-stopping goalkeeper is saving a goal, by definition. A keeper who was not as competent with that skill, would let in several more goals a season for sure, whereas good defenders are capable of mopping up loose balls in the area and negating high balls into the box. There are several arguments that can be made as to how pressure on the goalkeeper can be relieved, including leaving a striker upfield at set pieces, something that Brighton did. I don't think that I have seen a better keeper at home this season. I do not recall any keeper in particular producing a string of heroic saves in a match that denied us the win. Far too often the saves have been because the shots were straight at the keeper.

 

Although it would be nice to have a second string keeper putting pressure on Davis, I don't even believe that he is the sort of person who allows himself to become complacent or allows his standards to drop in a match.

 

I don't change my position that the defence would have let in fewer goals this season if they had had more time to gel early on, if Murty had been injured, if the formation played had secured control of the midfield, etc. Any number of reasons which have been covered by others and from which one of the least reasons was dodgey goalkeeping.

 

You are just nit picking. Nobody in their right mind would want a keeper who couldn't stop shots. Davis just happens to be a shotstopper and pretty hopeless at all the other facits. The Bristol goalkeeper made at least two blinding saves from Lallana/Schneiderlin.

 

I actually said in my posts an all round goalkeeper who might not be as good as Davis at the only thing he does well. It may well be that he would be just as good but a lot better at the other things.

 

Davis is all we have got at the moment but that doesn't mean we couldn't do with a better goalkeeper and for that matter any player that was an improvement.

[derry]

I am a little suprised at your feelings about Davis, Dave, as i don't think A.P. is as worried about the keeper commanding his 6 yard box now we have 2 centre half's who are attacking the incoming ball.Of course A.P. would like to see the keeper coming off his line and taking the ball out of the air, but he knows Kelvin won't do it.His shot stopping is good so providing we are trying to to stop the supply from wide, and the two big fellas are winning headers in the box, i don't think a new keeper would be high priority.

 

I do agree though that someone to put Davis under pressure, would be an asset,Bart did look a lot more comfortable against Charlton than i have seen him for quite a while.I also agree that the team sheet will look different come the start of next season maybe 4-5 players in the areas a lot of posters have suggested.

 

I agree Colin that a new goalkeeper isn't a high priority but I don't see Davis's shortcomings especially, crosses, distribution and communication being overlooked in the longer term. I think if a decent all round keeper becomes available who might sign for us we would be very tempted.

 

Despite the aerial competence of the centre backs a goalkeeper dominating the penalty area is an added safety factor especially one who can quickly turn defence into immediate breakout.

[Wes Tender]

You are just nit picking. Nobody in their right mind would want a keeper who couldn't stop shots. Davis just happens to be a shotstopper and pretty hopeless at all the other facits. The Bristol goalkeeper made at least two blinding saves from Lallana/Schneiderlin.

 

I actually said in my posts an all round goalkeeper who might not be as good as Davis at the only thing he does well. It may well be that he would be just as good but a lot better at the other things.

 

Davis is all we have got at the moment but that doesn't mean we couldn't do with a better goalkeeper and for that matter any player that was an improvement.

 

Well, you don't contest that a save by a shot-stopper is a goal saved. If he hadn't saved in that penalty shoot-out against Torquay, we would have been out of that paint pot cup , but shot-stopper keepers tend to have better success rates there too over ordinary competent keepers. The saves by the Bristol keeper were nothing that Davis couldn't have saved, certainly not enough evidence to say that on the strength of them that he was preferable to Davis, any more than saying that the Brighton goalkeeper was better. It is easy to make assessments on the basis of one performance, whereas those other keepers in this division also have their peaks and troughs, play blinders and then have a complete mare the next match.

 

Davis isn't all we have at the moment. We don't have just one goalkeeper. If you said that he was the only one who was good enough, fair enough. If you think that we could obtain a better keeper prepared to play for us at this level, then name somebody who you think is an improvement. Trouble is, it is difficult analysing the statistical evidence purely on goals conceded, as there are too many factors affecting it. Even you make the contention that Lallana not offering protection to Harding is a case in point and possibly accounts for the odd goal or two that Davis might not have conceded otherwise.

[derry]

Well, you don't contest that a save by a shot-stopper is a goal saved. If he hadn't saved in that penalty shoot-out against Torquay, we would have been out of that paint pot cup , but shot-stopper keepers tend to have better success rates there too over ordinary competent keepers. The saves by the Bristol keeper were nothing that Davis couldn't have saved, certainly not enough evidence to say that on the strength of them that he was preferable to Davis, any more than saying that the Brighton goalkeeper was better. It is easy to make assessments on the basis of one performance, whereas those other keepers in this division also have their peaks and troughs, play blinders and then have a complete mare the next match.

 

Davis isn't all we have at the moment. We don't have just one goalkeeper. If you said that he was the only one who was good enough, fair enough. If you think that we could obtain a better keeper prepared to play for us at this level, then name somebody who you think is an improvement. Trouble is, it is difficult analysing the statistical evidence purely on goals conceded, as there are too many factors affecting it. Even you make the contention that Lallana not offering protection to Harding is a case in point and possibly accounts for the odd goal or two that Davis might not have conceded otherwise.

 

I'm not pointing the finger at Davis he is the only option we have. He is as good a shot-stopper as anyone in the division but personally I would prefer an all round keeper. I think the Bristol keeper was a better keeper than Davis.

 

When a goalkeeper is exposed as against Brighton I don't blame him for the goals he had little chance with. I just prefer goalkeepers who dominate the penalty area and pass the ball out quickly to get on the counter-attack.

[captainchris]

Well, let's have a look at the number of different defenders that Davis had had in front of him since he arrived on 21st July 2006 just ahead of the 2006/7 season.

 

2006/7

Ostlund, Baird, Pele, Bale, Makin, Wright, Lundekvam, Powell.

 

2007/8

Vignal, Wright, Thomas, Makin, Ostlund, Wright, Dailly, Ifil, Scacel, Davies, Bennett, Powell, Lucketti.

 

2008/9

Svensson, Perry, Surman, James, Wotton, Lancashire, Mills, Pearce, Scacel, Saeijs.

 

2009/10

Murty, Harding, Jaidi, Trotman, Thomas, James.

 

Now, I make that 29 different defenders in not even three and a half seasons. Not exactly a settled defence that has experience of playing together, is it? Potentially, the defence that is most settled is the Pardew one, which will be improved by the return of Murty for James.

 

Looking at the other seasons under Burley, Dodd/Gorman and the two Dutch jokers, the defences comprised many who didn't stay long before moving on, short term loans, those prone to injury, callow youths or those well past their sell by date, or others playing out of their natural positions.

 

If Davis is to accept any blame for his shortcomings, then it is only fair that any who disparage his performance over this period, name a better goalkeeper at this level.

 

As for Derry's assertion that it might be better to have a good all round goalkeeper that dominated the penalty area with instant distribution to keep the game going, even if he isn't as good a shot stopper, I disagree. If the keeper fails to be a shot stopper, then a goal is scored, whereas a good strong defence can help a keeper who isn't so dominant and a good midfield can help make something of the keepers distribution.

 

Surely it is far more difficult to make saves when the ball is closer to the keeper? In a crowded defence, there is less room to manoeuvre in, less time to react to a rival's player toe poking in a loose ball. Nothing unusual about those circumstances. It is up to the defence to clear the loose balls in the box if the keeper cannot get to them.

 

I think you are having an affair with Davis which is turning into a love affair and love can be blind!

 

So 29 defenders are all useless and Davis is the unlucky one - I rest my case....

 

I agree James is a weak link and this was shown again on Saturday but yet again the ball comes comes bouncing out after another 'save' from Davis on Saturday and the opposition score for the second!

 

Davies will have to make a few saves in any team he plays for. I don't know how to find the statistics but it would be so good to see how many goals we concede reletive to shots on target, it's high I tell you.

 

To answer your other point. I have seen only one goalkeeper this year at St Mary's that looked worse than Davis and that was the MK Dons Fella. The rest looked at least as good.

 

Anyway, we are so much better resourced than those teams and should expect a better standard from our goalkeeper. If we expect it from our defence we should expect it from our goalkeeper. He's a good close range shot stopper granted - the rest of his skills level you can forget - it's ponderous and lightweight...................

 

 

 

I think you are having an affair with Davis which is turning into a love affair and love can be blind!

 

So 29 defenders are all useless and Davis is the unlucky one - I rest my case....

 

I agree James is a weak link and this was shown again on Saturday but yet again the ball comes comes bouncing out after another 'save' from Davis on Saturday and the opposition score for the second!

 

Davies will have to make a few saves in any team he plays for. I don't know how to find the statistics but it would be so good to see how many goals we concede reletive to shots on target, it's high I tell you.

 

To answer your other point. I have seen only one goalkeeper this year at St Mary's that looked worse than Davis and that was the MK Dons Fella. The rest looked at least as good.

 

Anyway, we are so much better resourced than those teams and should expect a better standard from our goalkeeper. If we expect it from our defence we should expect it from our goalkeeper. He's a good close range shot stopper granted - the rest of his skills level you can forget - it's ponderous and lightweight...................

[Saint Fan CaM]

It is a very interesting and somewhat baffling question by the OP which needs to be picked apart. I do not believe the central midfield is missing a holding midfielder as suggested by some. I think both Hammond and Schneiderlin sit back too deep and invite players on. A huge hole is left in central midfield all too often also.

 

As others have intimated, James is not good enough as a full-back and this creates an inbalance in the defence which means the shape and basic disciplines are forgotten in an effort to compensate. I think Murty is far more solid/skillful, reads play better and helps prevent many issues from arising in the first place. Compare that to James very poor judgement in giving away a soft pen on Saturday.

 

Lastly, Lambert offers much in terms of defending from the front - without his commitment to get stuck in Connolly is running a lonely battle. There was just one time during the Norwich game late in the 2nd half when Lambert chased down a defender and put the ball out for a throw-in. I know he was ill, so there's an excuse, but had he (and the midfield) closed down more consistently perhaps the result might have been different.