4-5-1 On Saturday Please

[St_Tel49]

Harding didn't make a hash of it because he was picked off by the two Brighton players wall passing him because he was left on his own. Trotman and Jaidi made a hash of the ball crossed in by letting Murray get between them especially when they were so close. If Lallana had been in front of Harding it might have been stopped. 4-4-2 can't be played with the wide left player roaming. If we are going to play 4-4-2 he has to predominately stay out wide.

My recollection of it was the acres of space through the middle of the park which allowed Brighton to get the ball out wide. We were stung on a break - something we are supposed to be good at. An awful lot of people were to blame, but as someone else said, you choose to focus on Lallana. I do think that some fans watch players with their prejudices rather than totally objectively.

[shurlock]

My recollection of it was the acres of space through the middle of the park which allowed Brighton to get the ball out wide. We were stung on a break - something we are supposed to be good at. An awful lot of people were to blame, but as someone else said, you choose to focus on Lallana. I do think that some fans watch players with their prejudices rather than totally objectively.

 

I agree. The way they cut through the middle of the park (which can always suck wider players in) was a bigger problem than whether one player was one or five yards of the touchline. We had a similar problem away at Brizzle but they didn't capitalise and we raped them on the break, something which is obviously harder to do at home.

[Legod Third Coming]

I agree. The way they cut through the middle of the park (which can always suck wider players in) was a bigger problem than whether one player was one or five yards of the touchline. We had a similar problem away at Brizzle but they didn't capitalise and we raped them on the break, something which is obviously harder to do at home.

 

Careful, the last man who used this phrase publically was punished very severely, so severely in fact he was made to manage Southampton...

[derry]

My recollection of it was the acres of space through the middle of the park which allowed Brighton to get the ball out wide. We were stung on a break - something we are supposed to be good at. An awful lot of people were to blame, but as someone else said, you choose to focus on Lallana. I do think that some fans watch players with their prejudices rather than totally objectively.

 

I don't like his lack of discipline. Defensively he is potentially a weakness. It was the space he leaves on our left side that was exploited. Teams have worked us out, watch for Norwich doing the same thing. We either close it off by occupying it or we will see the opposition looking to play through it on the break. Bristol Rovers also concentrated there and the MKD coach highlighted the weakness but didn't exploit it. Today Alan Pardew commented on our 'loose wide players'.

[THEVMAN]

My recollection of it was the acres of space through the middle of the park which allowed Brighton to get the ball out wide. We were stung on a break - something we are supposed to be good at. An awful lot of people were to blame, but as someone else said, you choose to focus on Lallana. I do think that some fans watch players with their prejudices rather than totally objectively.

 

Totally agree with that post its as if some people are going to watch a game with the intention of looking at a certain player to see if he makes the slightest of mistakes and then hanging the player concerned out to dry thus not looking at the overall picture.

[Legod Third Coming]

Totally agree with that post its as if some people are going to watch a game with the intention of looking at a certain player to see if he makes the slightest of mistakes and then hanging the player concerned out to dry thus not looking at the overall picture.

 

This is a big issue for me. What do you want? Lallana to create and score goals and be instrumental in us winning games? Or do you want him on the bench because he isn't always as disciplined as he should be? And then lose because we don't create anything...

[Thedelldays]

This is a big issue for me. What do you want? Lallana to create and score goals and be instrumental in us winning games? Or do you want him on the bench because he isn't always as disciplined as he should be? And then lose because we don't create anything...

 

 

both...if he his having an off day, it should not be a crime to haul him off now and then

[Legod Third Coming]

both...if he his having an off day, it should not be a crime to haul him off now and then

 

Agreed for any player but that is not the point being made.

[shurlock]

Bristol Rovers also concentrated there and the MKD coach highlighted the weakness but didn't exploit it. Today Alan Pardew commented on our 'loose wide players'.

 

If you're referring to the Bristol home game - Mellis played on the left and was partly responsible for their third goal. If you're talking about the away game, they got most joy down the right and scored as a result of Gobern's individual mistakes. If you want to nitpick, check where we've leaked goals. You'll see they've mostly come down the right (Huddersfield, Brentford, Charlton, Oldham, Orient, Brighton etc). The count is probably more than 2:1.

 

My problem with Lallana is not his supposed defensive indiscipline but his tendency to go inside which has bunched things up in the midfield, blunting our attacking play. But he's improved alot this season.

[derry]

This is a big issue for me. What do you want? Lallana to create and score goals and be instrumental in us winning games? Or do you want him on the bench because he isn't always as disciplined as he should be? And then lose because we don't create anything...

 

Yes but be more disciplined. He can be both and if he moves or we sign more players he will have to. It is inevitable that he builds discipline into his play or he will spend most of his career outside of the starting team.

 

For me he is just another expendable player that will move on when it suits. It is a two way street. There is no point in being attached to a particular player every player is replaceable. I just want to see a successful team and really don't care who makes up that team.

[derry]

Totally agree with that post its as if some people are going to watch a game with the intention of looking at a certain player to see if he makes the slightest of mistakes and then hanging the player concerned out to dry thus not looking at the overall picture.

 

I see Lallana being an unnecessary weakness in defence because of the way he plays. I recognise his talent and would be pleased if that was enough. The other players have weaknesses but are mostly doing their best I don't criticise them. however Lallana plays it off the cuff and isn't making the effort to track back wide. Obviously the manager sees this lack of control wide as a problem with his remark about our two wide players being 'loose'. I expect them to tighten up tomorrow.

[derry]

If you're referring to the Bristol home game - Mellis played on the left and was partly responsible for their third goal. If you're talking about the away game, they got most joy down the right and scored as a result of Gobern's individual mistakes. If you want to nitpick, check where we've leaked goals. You'll see they've mostly come down the right (Huddersfield, Brentford, Charlton, Oldham, Orient, Brighton etc). The count is probably more than 2:1.

 

My problem with Lallana is not his supposed defensive indiscipline but his tendency to go inside which has bunched things up in the midfield, blunting our attacking play. But he's improved alot this season.

 

The home game, at the end Mills and Harding were back but the space was left, Their full back got to the byeline for the second goal and Mellis stepped out of the way.

 

It's been a problem on the left no matter who has played there because nobody has played wide. We need a proper wide left midfielder.

[derry]

My recollection of it was the acres of space through the middle of the park which allowed Brighton to get the ball out wide. We were stung on a break - something we are supposed to be good at. An awful lot of people were to blame, but as someone else said, you choose to focus on Lallana. I do think that some fans watch players with their prejudices rather than totally objectively.

 

I agree. The way they cut through the middle of the park (which can always suck wider players in) was a bigger problem than whether one player was one or five yards of the touchline. We had a similar problem away at Brizzle but they didn't capitalise and we raped them on the break, something which is obviously harder to do at home.

 

Totally agree with that post its as if some people are going to watch a game with the intention of looking at a certain player to see if he makes the slightest of mistakes and then hanging the player concerned out to dry thus not looking at the overall picture.

 

Harding didn't make a hash of it because he was picked off by the two Brighton players wall passing him because he was left on his own. Trotman and Jaidi made a hash of the ball crossed in by letting Murray get between them especially when they were so close. If Lallana had been in front of Harding it might have been stopped. 4-4-2 can't be played with the wide left player roaming. If we are going to play 4-4-2 he has to predominately stay out wide.

 

Working from home today and a bit bored so I stuck on Sunday's game on Sky Plus and paid close attention to Lallana's positioning given its what everyone seems to be raving on about. Got to say, I was mildly in agreement - the perception of Lallana is that he drifts and wanders.

 

But, actually, watching the game back, his positional play was actually really good. He hugged the touchline consistently, he was nearly always an option for Harding when Harding was in possession, he tracked back down the flank and helped out defensively with Harding.

 

He also, hit the box when we got the ball wide right in a crossing position as a wide left player should do, and in possession he would bring the ball in-field more often than not, but I don't see that as a problem because most times he did that, it created space for Harding to overlap.

 

So, sorry, I actually think Lallana's positioning wasn't to blame, and I, like others, have probably been guilty with assuming he's not doing his job, when actually, I think he is.

 

Trotman switched off THREE times in the build up to the second goal by the way. No wonder he was whipped off.

 

If you lot want to argue the toss about what happened you could at least get it right. Because you were questioning what I thought happened I checked the video. Here is exactly what happened which is what I thought happened.

 

Schneiderlin lost the ball in a tackle wide right on the halfway line, the Brighton player swept the ball square right across the field to the right midfielder who was wide, out on our left touchline.

 

Lallana at this point was five yards goalside of the centre spot right in the middle of the field marking nobody.

 

Harding was on the left of the line of the back four about 10 yds further back,

 

Lallana then started to go left and Harding came out towards the ball.

 

Before either got near the winger he played it inside to a midfielder coming up the centre of the pitch now on Lallana's right. The midfielder then played it first time inside and behind Lallana and Harding towards the corner.

 

The winger in the meantime ran onto the ball and passed it first time into the middle where Murray got between Jaidi and Trotman to turn it past Davis.

 

Lallana and Harding never got near to the ball or the winger. Their wide right player had taken up the sort of position that we need to get our wide players to adopt rather than continually being sucked in to the centre of the pitch.

 

It was the superb positioning of their right winger plus our left sided midfielder being in the centre circle rather than goalside and left in front of Harding tracking the winger that allowed Brighton to open us up so easily.

 

I don't criticise Lallana because I dislike him, I criticise him because he isn't doing the job of a left midfielder. As long as he plays like this we can't play 4-4-2 properly.

[St_Tel49]

If you lot want to argue the toss about what happened you could at least get it right. Because you were questioning what I thought happened I checked the video. Here is exactly what happened which is what I thought happened.

 

Schneiderlin lost the ball in a tackle wide right on the halfway line, the Brighton player swept the ball square right across the field to the right midfielder who was wide, out on our left touchline.

 

Lallana at this point was five yards goalside of the centre spot right in the middle of the field marking nobody.

 

Harding was on the left of the line of the back four about 10 yds further back,

 

Lallana then started to go left and Harding came out towards the ball.

 

Before either got near the winger he played it inside to a midfielder coming up the centre of the pitch now on Lallana's right. The midfielder then played it first time inside and behind Lallana and Harding towards the corner.

 

The winger in the meantime ran onto the ball and passed it first time into the middle where Murray got between Jaidi and Trotman to turn it past Davis.

 

Lallana and Harding never got near to the ball or the winger. Their wide right player had taken up the sort of position that we need to get our wide players to adopt rather than continually being sucked in to the centre of the pitch.

 

It was the superb positioning of their right winger plus our left sided midfielder being in the centre circle rather than goalside and left in front of Harding tracking the winger that allowed Brighton to open us up so easily.

 

I don't criticise Lallana because I dislike him, I criticise him because he isn't doing the job of a left midfielder. As long as he plays like this we can't play 4-4-2 properly.

 

I do not have the luxury of revisiting the video and inspecting it in detail which is why I used the words "it is my recollection" but it sounds to me like the description of a classic counter strike when we were positioned for an attack and lost the ball. You did not mention where our other midfielders were.

[derry]

I do not have the luxury of revisiting the video and inspecting it in detail which is why I used the words "it is my recollection" but it sounds to me like the description of a classic counter strike when we were positioned for an attack and lost the ball. You did not mention where our other midfielders were.

 

Scneiderlin lost the ball wide right after winning a tackle with Brighton attacking down their left touchline, I didn't check Hammond and it's now deleted but the two centre backs were behind Lallana as the back four was in a line across the field about 15 yds goalside of the centre line.

 

I personally have come to a conclusion how we should play. If we are going to play 4-4-2 we have to get in a natural left sided player as it is obvious now that Pardew doesn't rate Holmes. Shoehorning Lallana into a wide left position isn't the way to go. It doesn't work and makes us vulnerable to the counterattack down our left.

 

Lallana by instinct is a central player so we should use him as either the head of a diamond (which I don't like - too narrow), a central attacking midfielder or a choice of second striker or in the hole 1/1 with Lambert but not as a wide player. It is not fair to play him in a position he doesn't fit. If he doesn't rate a start in a central position then I think he should be on the bench to replace a central player as appropriate.

 

If Lallana is seen as a player that has to play no matter what, then 4-5-1 with him as a central attacking midfielder, but not wide.

Edited 21 November, 2009 by derry

[THEVMAN]

Scneiderlin lost the ball wide right after winning a tackle with Brighton attacking down their left touchline, I didn't check Hammond and it's now deleted but the two centre backs were behind Lallana as the back four was in a line across the field about 15 yds goalside of the centre line.

 

I personally have come to a conclusion how we should play. If we are going to play 4-4-2 we have to get in a natural left sided player as it is obvious now that Pardew doesn't rate Holmes. Shoehorning Lallana into a wide left position isn't the way to go. It doesn't work and makes us vulnerable to the counterattack down our left.

 

Lallana by instinct is a central player so we should use him as either the head of a diamond (which I don't like - too narrow), a central attacking midfielder or a choice of second striker or in the hole 1/1 with Lambert but not as a wide player. It is not fair to play him in a position he doesn't fit. If he doesn't rate a start in a central position then I think he should be on the bench to replace a central player as appropriate.

 

If Lallana is seen as a player that has to play no matter what, then 4-5-1 with him as a central attacking midfielder, but not wide.

 

Please can we now look forward to todays game as i think we have this subject saturated like the weather,you`re as good as replying to your own posts now.

[derry]

Please can we now look forward to todays game as i think we have this subject saturated like the weather,you`re as good as replying to your own posts now.

 

Well let's just see whether it's more of the same or lessons have been learn't. I'm not holding my breath.

[THEVMAN]

Well let's just see whether it's more of the same or lessons have been learn't. I'm not holding my breath.

 

Thats it plenty of positive thinking,lighten up a little bit.

[Saint Fan CaM]

People seem to forget we had just beaten...

 

Charlton 2-1 with 442

 

Bristol Rovers 3-2 with 442

 

MK Dons 3-1 with 442 (was losing 1-0 with 451 until changed to 442 and we got 3 goals)

 

So Pardew WAS NOT changing a winning formula he was sticking to one.

 

 

Well said. Have to say OP is way too reactionary for my liking. One game in 10 lost and the whole world is about to end. :cool:

[derry]

We played 4-4-2 in the first half. Lallana had a good game played wide and always picked up the wide runner, one great tackle early as last man but switched to the right for a minute and the right runner nearly undid us in injury time showing how important his contribution was.

 

The lesson of last week looks like it may have been taken on board and it still allowed the freedom to get into the middle when we attack on the other side for a well taken goal. It's a shame we switched to 4-3-1-2 in the second half it gave Norwich a lot of room to attack us wide.