Cheating in Football - does it matter?

[Professor]

Just seen on BBC Breakfast. Liverpool got a draw last night from a penalty. The penalty came from a very deliberate dive, where the Liverpol player jumped over the defenders legs, well away from contact, and went straight to ground. So one more point in the Premier Table, but not gained under the rules of football.

 

Is it so now so much part of the game that fans applaud their players who 'win' a penalty?

Do clubs train players to make deliberate contact with a defender in order to fake a foul?

If all that matters is the result, does the means matter at all?

 

Of course it matters. Liverpool cheated last night and everyone who saw the clip on BBC knows that. The Football authorities desparately need to do something about it, not just about Liverpool but about the whole sickness in the game.

It is perfectly feasible to take firm action against the clubs and players when the evidence of cheating is there from the video of the game. More than that, every game could be videoed by different methods, specifically to watch for cheating.

The penalty rule itself needs to be changed. It is too high an award fouls that do not affect a scoring chance. Its use should be seriously restricted and replaced with direct or indirect free kicks, depending on the foul committed.

[warsash saint]

Until UEFA/FA take a stand against these cheats, it will always happen.

 

I have sympathy for refs, but it they see a dive then the result should be a red card. If the ref misses it, then a red card should been given retrospectify & a huge fine.

 

Until players are hit in the wallet then nothing will change.

[dubai_phil]

Would LOVE to see it crushed, but it won't happen

 

Anyone old enough to remember the old European Cup matches against those nasty Italians..... The autorities could have done something back then, they didn't and here we are.

 

There is absolutely no point in trying to clean up the game in England. Because other countries and other cultures don't see it as cheating at all. We get thousands of hours of African/Arabic League matches on FTA Satellite. Players going down like they have been shot all over the pitch all the time

 

FIFA & UEFA do it world wide then fine, rid the world of corruption in football, then politics then....

 

Saints are 20 seconds from FT in the last game of the season, they need one more goal to win the Playoff final. Lallana dives and we win promotion the penalty....

 

Sorry, the cheating bit is always the same - moral outrage until it is really important and affects you in a positive way.

[Hatch]

Cheating goes on about 20/30 times a match, it doesn't have to be a dive in the penalty area to be cheating, a dive is a dive, no matter what part of the pitch it is on.

 

Also, someone who is offside a lot, he is breaking the laws of the game, ie cheating. Where do we draw the line.

[Dog]

If a player gets caught diving, based on TV evidence, then they should be made to wear pink socks for the next 4 games.

[St Landrew]

I completely agree, Prof.

 

It used be the case where the odd player who might dive, or draw the foul, would be picked on by the crowd. Robert Pires was a notable example, who was particularly disliked by Saints fans, and other supporters, and was often booed whenever he got the ball, because he was a known exponent of bending the rules to breaking point. But now the diving is widespread, and the divers are getting quite convincing enough to fool a referee in the heat of the game - not like Jürgen Klinsmann at all.

 

In all sports where officials have to make instant decisions, mistakes can be, and are, made. This can occasionally lead to disasterous consequences for the teams involved on the rough end of the decision. Various pundits will point out that the luck evens itself out over a season. Well I don't buy that excuse. There's no actual evidence to suggest that, in any case.

 

It's about time trials over a Premiership season were conducted at matches where a third official was involved, with the power to decide, when asked for a ruling on a decision. In Rugby and Cricket it is used and it doesn't take forever either, to make a ruling, as some would argue. It would also completely put pay to the disputes on the pitch. Again, pundits make the absurd suggestion that this would take the passion out of the game. That's another bullsh!te answer I don't buy.

 

If it means that much, don't leave a decision to chance. And while they're red carding the professional foulers, do the same to the divers too.

[GenevaSaint]

Now I agree with what has been said in regards to cheating, but playing devils advocate look at the rules below.

 

I didn't watch the incident, so I can't comment, but the ref could have thought there was an attempt to trip the player. So, regardless of contact the ref could have thought there was intent to foul.

 

How ****ed would you be getting a penalty awarded against you because the ref thought there was excessive force in your valid 50/50 tackle when you win the ball !

 

Direct Free Kick

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any

of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be

careless, reckless or using excessive force:

• kicks or attempts to kick an opponent

• trips or attempts to trip an opponent

• jumps at an opponent

• charges an opponent

• strikes or attempts to strike an opponent

• pushes an opponent

• tackles an opponent

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any

of the following three offences:

• holds an opponent

• spits at an opponent

• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own

penalty area)

A direct free kick is taken from the place where the offence occurred

(see Law 13 – Position of Free Kick).

 

Penalty Kick

A penalty kick is awarded if any of the above ten offences is committed by

a player inside his own penalty area, irrespective of the position of the ball,

provided it is in play.

Edited 10 November, 2009 by GenevaSaint

[South Londoner]

I watched the game last night; there was no intent to foul; Ngog had launched himself into the air long before Carsley got near him.

 

Also as long as the authorities insist on calling it "simulation" rather than plain "cheating" things will never change.

[GenevaSaint]

I watched the game last night; there was no intent to foul; Ngog had launched himself into the air long before Carsley got near him.

 

Also as long as the authorities insist on calling it "simulation" rather than plain "cheating" things will never change.

 

In which case, cheating ****.

 

Forgot to answer the original question, yes it does matter

[greg_hill]

Cheating goes on about 20/30 times a match, it doesn't have to be a dive in the penalty area to be cheating, a dive is a dive, no matter what part of the pitch it is on.

 

Also, someone who is offside a lot, he is breaking the laws of the game, ie cheating. Where do we draw the line.

 

Breaking the law and cheating are not the same. Cheating is a deliberate attempt to deceive, breaking the law can be accidental. Also, offside is not actually breaking the rules, because offside is not a rule that states you must or must not do something. It states that if the ball is played ....etc. then the other team gets a free kick.

 

Yes, cheating matters. None of us would love football if it was ninety minutes of people throwing themselves on the ground and doing the best acting they could. We love football for the skill and the passion, which is the opposite.

[View From The Top]

I can remember Cashfool diving for a pen' at the Milton Rd end and getting jeered by the Saints fans for doing so.

[stevegrant]

I can remember Cashfool diving for a pen' at the Milton Rd end and getting jeered by the Saints fans for doing so.

I remember that - it was even more ridiculous than Ngog's one last night, and Match of the Day gave it the caption "Moroccan Roll", which was quite amusing. He looked a complete tit and I can't remember him diving again after that...

[RedAndWhite91]

Course it ****ing matters, it's even more damaging to the game than hooliganism. Cheating and diving is destroying the sincerity of the beautiful game and making a mockery of it. The sooner the cheats are stamped out the better. Rant over.

[St Landrew]

I can remember Cashfool diving for a pen' at the Milton Rd end and getting jeered by the Saints fans for doing so.

 

There's also the Kevin Philips dive for Saints at the St Mary's, Northam end. Can't remember who made contact with him, but several yards and moments later he tripped over his feet, well inside the penalty area. Unsurprisingly, it didn't bring much of a cheer. Uriah Rennie was the only person in the ground who was fooled by it.

 

Incidentally, Beatts scored from the spot.

[Saint Keith]

surely we have to get to the stage where we have either a 3rd official with the TV pictures, and he decides, as in cricket or rugby, or the main official can go to a tv booth, watch the pictures again, and then decide, as they used to do in NFL

[JackFrost]

The problem runs so deep into the game now nothing is going to change until every questionable diving incident is examined and the authorities start handing out suspensions to players who are shown to have dived, regardless of whether it's through a correct refereeing decision or video evidence after the game.

 

I bet there are countless teams in England, in Europe and the world who routinely practise diving in training, day in day out.

 

Things will only start to change until high-profile, regular divers (from the biggest clubs) like Ronaldo, Gerrard and Drogba get suspensions. The problem has to be dealt with from the top and then fed down.

 

Knowing FIFA they'll launch a crackdown and start fining every footballer 2 grand if they're found diving (or the equivallent to fining most of us 10p) and the problem won't get any better.

 

Off the top of my head I've only ever seen one diver condemned by his own manager. That was Bernardo Corradi getting criticised by Stuart Pearce a few years ago.

[niceandfriendly]

There's also the Kevin Philips dive for Saints at the St Mary's, Northam end. Can't remember who made contact with him, but several yards and moments later he tripped over his feet, well inside the penalty area. Unsurprisingly, it didn't bring much of a cheer. Uriah Rennie was the only person in the ground who was fooled by it.

 

Incidentally, Beatts scored from the spot.

 

Haha I remember that one. Wasn't it against Dennis Irwin for Wolves? It was never a dive, KP tripped himself up. I can remember everyone at the time unfairly slating him.

 

It wasn't a penalty either.

[St Landrew]

Haha I remember that one. Wasn't it against Dennis Irwin for Wolves? It was never a dive, KP tripped himself up. I can remember everyone at the time unfairly slating him.

 

It wasn't a penalty either.

 

I have the video. He tripped himself, albeit accidentally. - hence dive and no foul. Beatts scored. yes, it could have been Denis Irwin.

 

You realise you're tempting me to go and fire up the PC I have it on.

[View From The Top]

There's also the Kevin Philips dive for Saints at the St Mary's, Northam end. Can't remember who made contact with him, but several yards and moments later he tripped over his feet, well inside the penalty area. Unsurprisingly, it didn't bring much of a cheer. Uriah Rennie was the only person in the ground who was fooled by it.

 

Incidentally, Beatts scored from the spot.

 

It was against Wolves.

[LGTL]

Of course it matters. But if we were 0-0 in the play off final and Lambert took a tumble would I mind?? No ****ing way!

[benjii]

Robbie Savage was on Radio5Live a short while ago.

 

He said if he could dive to get Derby promoted, saved from relegation, or another person booked he would do so. Didn't seem fussed at all! Actually, I don't think he said "dive" more like "make the most of".

 

Mind you, he is a weak minded ****.

[hamster]

Alan Pardew is interviewed as pasrt of that Sky Sport item. He blames the parents, seriously.

[hypochondriac]

Alan Pardew is interviewed as pasrt of that Sky Sport item. He blames the parents, seriously.

Probably does play a part in some cases TBH.

[hamster]

Probably does play a part in some cases TBH.

 

Pards says it is a 'moral issue' 'honour and respect to the opposition' 'far too many young players diving and cutting corners'.

 

 

How long is his contract? extend it now I say.

 

This club just gets better and better by the day, some day in the future there will be a new association football rule book and it wil be called 'Markus Liebherr's Rulebook.

[rallyboy]

we need to define 'dive' first - for me it has to be a player going to ground when there is no contact, or for no obvious reason.

 

The Liverpool one the other night was a classic case, no contact, no need to go down, a clear dive.

Had Carlsey gone in at waist height and caused Ngog to take evasive action that would have been intent and would have been a penalty even without contact.

 

Eduardo was very different, though just as sly.

He fooled the keeper not the ref, took the ball past him and invited the minimal contact that was enough for him to fall over - no dive, penalty.

Ruthless professional 1-0 Slow keeper.

 

Let's not confuse a player who invites the late challenge and does the professional thing - it isn't the striker's job to keep on his feet at all costs, if a clumsy defender misses the ball and sticks a leg out in the box I would happily fall over it, that's not cheating.

 

As for writhing about theatrically, anyone who is badly hurt doesn't move much, so rolling about on the pitch should be a red card, or hanging for repeat offenders.

 

Finally, the annoying habits of pundits - 'it shouldn't be a penalty, he'd lost control of the ball' - irrelevant where the ball is or where it's going, it's the offence that matters.

That would mean you could punch people off the ball all day without fear of giving away a foul.

 

'The linesman was really late with the flag' - yeah, that will be because he wasn't offside until he got involved.

Keep up Motty, the law has changed since 1968, unlike your wardrobe.

[stevegrant]

I have the video. He tripped himself, albeit accidentally. - hence dive and no foul. Beatts scored. yes, it could have been Denis Irwin.

If he tripped accidentally then how can it be a dive? :confused:

[St Landrew]

If he tripped accidentally then how can it be a dive? :confused:

 

Dive; fall over; whatever. Call it what you will. When I write dive, I mean he went over without contact from any opposition player. It's not meant to criticise Phillips.

 

I have wondered whether he knew he'd fallen over due to tripping himself up, and hence gaining a penalty, or whether someone had clipped him. In the clip, he looks quite poe-faced - no reaction at all.

 

Guilty or innocent..?

[krissyboy31]

If he tripped accidentally then how can it be a dive? :confused:

 

That's what I was thinking. You can trip over your own feet, your laces, a divot or the ball, all when running at pace will make you go to ground (or you can just lose your balance). Are they dives? No! Are they penalties or free kicks? No! I think that is the mind-set that referees have. If a player goes to ground it is either a foul or a dive and it is not necessarily the case.

Edited 11 November, 2009 by krissyboy31

[benjii]

we need to define 'dive' first - for me it has to be a player going to ground when there is no contact, or for no obvious reason.

 

The Liverpool one the other night was a classic case, no contact, no need to go down, a clear dive.

Had Carlsey gone in at waist height and caused Ngog to take evasive action that would have been intent and would have been a penalty even without contact.

 

Eduardo was very different, though just as sly.

He fooled the keeper not the ref, took the ball past him and invited the minimal contact that was enough for him to fall over - no dive, penalty.

Ruthless professional 1-0 Slow keeper.

 

Let's not confuse a player who invites the late challenge and does the professional thing - it isn't the striker's job to keep on his feet at all costs, if a clumsy defender misses the ball and sticks a leg out in the box I would happily fall over it, that's not cheating.

 

As for writhing about theatrically, anyone who is badly hurt doesn't move much, so rolling about on the pitch should be a red card, or hanging for repeat offenders.

 

Finally, the annoying habits of pundits - 'it shouldn't be a penalty, he'd lost control of the ball' - irrelevant where the ball is or where it's going, it's the offence that matters.

That would mean you could punch people off the ball all day without fear of giving away a foul.

 

'The linesman was really late with the flag' - yeah, that will be because he wasn't offside until he got involved.

Keep up Motty, the law has changed since 1968, unlike your wardrobe.

 

Absolutely - one of my pet hates too. It always amazes me that people paid to talk about football are so ignorant of it.

 

"He lost control of the ball" - so the defender's knee high two footed assault is not a foul then? Plonkers!

[angelman]

bring in TV replays that the ref can use then and there. Until that happens I cannot see how the situation can improve. So what if you get a retrospective ban? Very often it is a price worth paying for your team and it really doesn't help those that you have cheated against.

 

Forget UEFAs experiment of having goal line refs. That's frankly bollicks. I cannot understand why they are so unwilling to introduce TV replays. By the time the players have surrounded the ref and argued the toss, the video ref could have made his decision. Saying that it delays the game too much is ridiculous, and so what if it does. As I say its no longer than the complaints from the players. And I definitely think that it is a price worth paying - a few seconds delay or a whole game ruined by cheats? Rugby Union and League manage well. Cricket does to a certain extent. So I really can't see a problem and it has to be the way forward. The FA is in favour of this, and I think in 2006 did lobby FIFA to introduce it. Platini also takes a strange stance on it. So everyone wants video replays apart from seemingly FIFA and UEFA.

 

Anyway, what does the spare ref do all the time, apart from put up a board showing extra time (which would be easy enough to do without him holding a board up) and stop managers from leaving that pathetic patch of ground called the technical area.

[Third Division South Days]

Don Revie and his Leeds team of the 60's/70's wrote the rule book on cheating and foul play. No British team has got close to them since. I still gain great pleasure whenever they lose.

[BadgerBadger]

Man's desire to win manifests itself in many in ugly ways - I think there should be retrospective punishments handed out with fines and bans.

Or even stocks, rotten fruit and regular stonings in every market town.

Even, and I want to make this absolutely clear, even if they do.........

[Deppo]

Of course it matters - it's between devilment, rape, and the deep blue something!

[JackFrost]

The ref is going to be suspended apparently

 

http://msn.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_5687969,00.html

 

Not a bad decision, maybe it will help to even out the bias towards towards the top 4 teams when it comes to penalties if this is done regularly.

 

I sincerely N'gog will get a suspension as well