The God Delusion

[Matthew Le God]

You ignored this part.

 

Why don't you believe in Thor the thunder god or the 9,999 other gods throughout human history? Why is Thor less believable than the Judeo-CHristian God? You only believe in the Judeo-Christian God I guess because your parents were christian.

 

In a way you are an atheist to those 9,999 Gods, I have just gone one God more. Why have you rejected these 9,999 Gods? I bet you wouldn't have rejected Thor if you were born in 955 AD and into a Viking family.

[Ludwig]

Look up anti-realism and religious inclusivism and the arguments for it, MLG. They are reasonable for a religious believer. I can't be bothered to write them out and explain them clearly.

[Matthew Le God]

I'm officially leaving this thread. Phew I hear some of you say.

 

Is that because you can't answer the above question?

[hamster]

Any religious people here...

 

Do you believe in the power of prayer?

 

Ah, yes I do. I do now anyway. Please don't ask who/what I actually pray to as I could not, hand on heart, tell you the answer.

[Matthew Le God]

Ah, yes I do. I do now anyway. Please don't ask who/what I actually pray to as I could not, hand on heart, tell you the answer.

 

A Miss Fritzel from Austria I think is likely to have prayed to God during her 24 years in a cellar whilst she was repeatedly raped by her father. God kept his arms folded during that so if he does answer any of your comparably little problems in your prayers does that not show he doesn't give a damn or even enjoys watching misery and has the power to stop it but chooses not to? If God can cure people from disease or help win a football match why has an amputee never grown back a leg?

[Ludwig]

Miracles do not exist. An interventionary God cannot exist.

[RedAndWhite91]

A Miss Fritzel from Austria I think is likely to have prayed to God during her 24 years in a cellar whilst she was repeatedly raped by her father. God kept his arms folded during that so if he does answer any of your comparably little problems in your prayers does that not show he doesn't give a damn or even enjoys watching misery and has the power to stop it but chooses not to? If God can cure people from disease or help win a football match why has an amputee never grown back a leg?

 

I have often wondered about this. I wonder why I got something which affects 1 in 100,000 people. If there was a God then surely there wouldn't be diseases and such, natural things which aren't 'free will' but are uncontrollable and uncurable. If there was a God, then why do people have such conditions?

[hamster]

A Miss Fritzel from Austria I think is likely to have prayed to God during her 24 years in a cellar whilst she was repeatedly raped by her father. God kept his arms folded during that so if he does answer any of your comparably little problems in your prayers does that not show he doesn't give a damn or even enjoys watching misery and has the power to stop it but chooses not to? If God can cure people from disease or help win a football match why has an amputee never grown back a leg?

 

I don't pray for myself though, or maybe in a roundabout way I do.

 

You're not going to try to make me look silly here I hope?

 

In all honesty I am quite new to this praying business and am not qualified to explain something that (as a few have already tried to explain, and much more eloquently than I could) has required a massive leap in 'faith' on my part, I would go as far at this point as to call it 'blind faith' actually.

[Ludwig]

I have often wondered about this. I wonder why I got something which affects 1 in 100,000 people. If there was a God then surely there wouldn't be diseases and such, natural things which aren't 'free will' but are uncontrollable and uncurable. If there was a God, then why do people have such conditions?

 

'vale of soul-making', one must progress through adversity to be at one with God. Such is the argument of Ireneaus (sic?) I believe. Though I find it unconvincing, as it relies upon 'the fall' as fact.

[RedAndWhite91]

'vale of soul-making'' date=' one must progress through adversity to be at one with God. Such is the argument of Ireneaus (sic?) I believe. Though I find it unconvincing, as it relies upon 'the fall' as fact.[/quote']

 

My 'adversity' has only made me feel more disillusioned with organised religion.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Well I have just spent a very engrossing hour pouring over the posts on this thread. It's almost to everyone's credit that I have either been educated for example on my novice understanding of existentialism or the idea that the bible should be viewed not so much as rule book but I guess a 2000 year old self help book. Susan Jeffers is older than I thought!

 

I have come away probably still agnostic and waiting for the 'bolt of lightening' that will eradicate my inability and complete the leap of faith but as posters have pointed out there are in the meantime some valuable teachings in the bible that make a very good moral code by which to lead your life without thinking about your belief in god. As I learned existentialism has a rainbow of concepts and at the other end of the spectrum from where I started we have Kierkegaard the religious moralist who will be my next port of call once I've made futile attempts at understanding the views of Sartre, Camus and Nietzsche ( who I'm finding to be a bit of big head to be honest!)

 

Apologies, I haven't responded to every post or acknowledged posters by name for their thoughts that I mention above and those I have taken on board but not referred to. I will mention RedandWhite91 just to say I did read your post and was sorry to read of your illness and I can completely understand your reaction but in my experience your level of belief depends on the friends and advisors you have in life. Perhaps you just made a bad choice of friend.

 

FWIW, one of the many reasons I left the church after really immersing myself in it for a few years and trying to rationlise it's teachings we were 'befriended' by a similar couple to us with a young family and without going into to much detail our experience wasn't that dissimilar to yours. However, in our case we accepted an invite to a fortnight's holiday with them. We lasted a week as it felt like an exercise in brain-washing and a chance to cleanse our souls in accommodation that would make a kennel look plush. Why do some devout followers have to adopt the hair shirt approach. Personally, I like my self-catering cottages to have some basic home comforts and soft furnishings! Anyway RedandWhite 91 it was good to hear your story and apologies but I am completely ignorant about Addisons disease but I will look into it shortly and I hope with medication you continue to stay well.

 

Sincerely folks, in the main a very gratifying and enlightening read where you cannot readily dismiss any of the views and beliefs put forward by some very well read individuals. I remain agnostic but with a desire to change towards a more rationalised faith that keeps my options open. Thanks again. If nothing else I have learned something very positive about the regular contributors on this forum but sadly in a few cases it was just an exercise in simple dismissal.

[hypochondriac]

Nice thread 19C. I wish you would do more of this and less of the other stuff.

[RedAndWhite91]

Thanks for taking the time to read it Nineteen. I guess we have experienced similar things regarding people who see their opinion as fact, and I completely agree about level of belief depending on those who have an input on your way of thinking. If my parents were devoutly religious then there's more chance I would be for example, if that's what you mean anyway.

 

I also agree about not dismissing it based on the ramblings of one person. I'd like to think I'll stay open but at the moment my mind is closed on the matter and at the moment I have no time for religion. Maybe in the future I'll change, I don't know.

 

Thanks for what you said about the AD aswell Nineteen, don't worry though, nobody seems to know what it is! It's ok as I have gotten used to my meds and that, but it has made me question things, like religion, and made me appreciate things more, because I was fairly close to death. Still, there are a lot people worse off than me, I almost feel quite selfish taking about it.

[Teddy Nutkins]

This place never ever fails to amaze me.To get to 4 pages on what is essentially a football forum,on a topic that invites so many differing views,raised by a poster who has been a little controversial,frankly is amazing.i have a feeling it will run on a bit today.

 

Nineteen,did you expect to get such a wide spance of views,in some cases put most eloquently, on such a controversial subject.I have seen more written abuse on the main board, than on this thread which is a credit to all partaking.

 

Clever use of topic title though.

[View From The Top]

Of course I cannot prove that God existed. If I could then this thread would not exist. That is what faith is, the belief in something which cannot be proven.

 

I quite admire, in a strange way, people who have unshakable faith in something.

 

That said, I also view them as rather odd, most likely as I lack the rationale to understand faith in that context.

Edited 6 November, 2009 by View From The Top

[dubai_phil]

Any religious people here...

 

Do you believe in the power of prayer?

 

Ok here we go.

 

The main religons are based upon the handed down memories of encounters or notes written by a couple of blokes wandering around the deserts some 2000 years or more ago.

 

Now anyone who has had dealings with this part of the world over time would wonder about how the world could fall for that sort of story from this sort of place (meant in a light-hearted look at Al Fahim sort of way).

 

When I came down here I've already mentioned my "disquiet" about the whole "brainwashing" by bored RE teachers that is used to try and give you a grounding that "programmed" my feelings about religion in the UK.

 

However, if you like "my eyes were opened" to understanding much better the NEED that Humans have for "Something in their lives" (but I didn't "have a moment"). It was about seeing the places in the Bible were real and exist, it was about living in an Islamic society and understanding them (and realising how desperately, fundamentally, sadly and badly wrong the UK had been in their "absorption" policies over the years).

 

Personally, I find it strange that when God is supposed to be the point of religion, so much effort goes into "worshipping" a couple of blokes interpretation of Him, but that's for another post.

 

I'm understanding of all religions (Heck I've even seen the Buddha's tooth!) but I am not religious. However, from a different approach I fully understand and believe in the Power of Prayer.....

 

My belief in this is NOT that it works as some telephone link to God, but that the Human Mind is greatly misunderstood by most people who use it.

 

A friend embarked on a new career in Hypnotherapy, (then on into stage shows and Life Coaching) and even into Motivational speaking.

 

Part of what he learnt introduced him to such areas as NLP (initially as a strong sales tool allowing you to "programme" a potential client) and then on into Aura's and some of the weird energy stuff.

 

What he learnt is that the power of focused thought can be very strong, (jokes aside, I since found out it is covered in Dan Brown's book - the Science of Noetics). (Look at Saints the past years - the Negative Energy affected all of us not just in fotball but also in us being "down" to some extent in our normal lives, and the Positive Energy today and our ability to have debates like this)

 

We used this "entry level understanding of the Human Brain or amateur psychology as a tool to drive behavioural changes across a wide cultural/racial spread of my corporate clients.

 

Positive Thinking exercises, concentrating on the same simple ideals and objectives when held as a group exercise worked. It was a heck of a gamble, and I got derided for it at the beginning, but now it is part of corporate life in a company employing 17,000 people, so it DID get proven to work

 

In fact, not only did we change behaviours in the clients, but for some we changed their outlook on life, one character, who, as a Good Muslim, accepted the fact that his core beliefs did not change, but the way he looked at his life did, he termed the experience "like a religious conversion", he attends his mosque now understanding the power of so many minds focusing the same way, he changed his attitude and approach to his family, his work and has found a fulfillment in his life and goals.

 

Now, the journey into understanding how to use these tools to be more effective in my work took in an understanding of healing. It won't mend a broken bone or likely cause cancer cells to go away, but it can make you feel better, in my case a knee injury caused muscles to spasm which resulted in great pain. The healing technique relaxed the muslces, no pain and an understanding of how to stop the spasms happening by relaxing. The power of "focused thought"

 

Imagine then the power of many people "praying" are they "giving God a quick call on the mobile"? or does that energy have a more positive impact on them - making them FEEL better, more positive..... A whole world of science there.

 

So, my answer is simple. When making a broad brushed statement about anything to do with Religion, there will actually be thousands of tangents that the answer can come from.

 

As they will not be the answer the question was designed to generate, that causes a discord and a the normal response will be an attempt to say NO I MEANT... which, at the end of the day is where the entire problem with intolerance, varities of differing interpretations all stem from.

 

Prayer as a focused energy has enormous power because the human mind has enormous power. (I think most Freshers at So'ton Uni will have seen Alan Bates Stage show- he got us into looking at this stuff - THAT story is also for another day!).

 

My issue with religion is that it is about "some blokes" interpreting or explaining "their" relationship with God, and then not understanding that others may wonder why, of all the Prophets and stories of that time, these two were the ones who came to the fore. My issue with "understanding the Power of Prayer" is that it MAY actually be something very important in our lives because of the nature of our brains, that has been obscured or (even) hijacked by religion.

 

Seek First to Understand - that's the gospel according to Saint Stephen Covey. Works for me!

[badgerx16]

Why don't you believe in Thor the thunder god or the 9,999 other gods throughout human history? Why is Thor less believable than the Judeo-CHristian God? You only believe in the Judeo-Christian God I guess because your parents were christian.

 

In a way you are an atheist to those 9,999 Gods, I have just gone one God more. Why have you rejected these 9,999 Gods? I bet you wouldn't have rejected Thor if you were born in 955 AD and into a Viking family.

 

1) How many Vikings, Saxons, Celts, etc converted to Christianity, thereby rejecting their ancestral belief systems ? They learnt to believe in the Judeo-Christian God without having Christian parents.

 

2) Given that the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim 'God's are one and the same, ( IMHO, please don't blow me up as a heretic ), perhaps what you actually have are simply many more varied interpretations of what is essentially the same basic belief. You could extend this to include all monotheistic relgions. And before you get onto the pantheonic structures of the Norse, Roman, or Greek gods, don't Christians have God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirirt ? And don't Catholics also effectively deify Mary ?

 

As has been stated earlier, belief is independant, and quite possibly exclusive of, proof. You are free to choose your personal system of spritual succour, as are we all.

[mynameisthehulk]

Did you hear about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac? Lay awake at night wondering if there is a dog...

[dune]

It's not an opinion. You cannot induct anything' date=' you cannot be certain of anything, everything can be looked upon with reasonable scepticism, to believe in anything requires FAITH in your senses, in your observations, in the testimony of others.[/quote']

 

You are correct in what you state, and science and common sense clearly tells us that apples grow on apple trees, night follows day, and the dinosaurs were around long before adam and eve. Yet some of the more wacky christians (sorry to stereotype but we're talking mainly Americans here ) dispute evolution and claim man was around at the same time as T-Rex.

[Pancake]

A question to the non-religious peeps on here. How can you prove that God (or an supreme being) does not exist? if you cant prove it, how come you are so sure that it (he/she) doesnt?

[Nineteen Canteen]

Ok here we go.

 

The main religons are based upon the handed down memories of encounters or notes written by a couple of blokes wandering around the deserts some 2000 years or more ago.

 

Now anyone who has had dealings with this part of the world over time would wonder about how the world could fall for that sort of story from this sort of place (meant in a light-hearted look at Al Fahim sort of way).

 

When I came down here I've already mentioned my "disquiet" about the whole "brainwashing" by bored RE teachers that is used to try and give you a grounding that "programmed" my feelings about religion in the UK.

 

However, if you like "my eyes were opened" to understanding much better the NEED that Humans have for "Something in their lives" (but I didn't "have a moment"). It was about seeing the places in the Bible were real and exist, it was about living in an Islamic society and understanding them (and realising how desperately, fundamentally, sadly and badly wrong the UK had been in their "absorption" policies over the years).

 

Personally, I find it strange that when God is supposed to be the point of religion, so much effort goes into "worshipping" a couple of blokes interpretation of Him, but that's for another post.

 

I'm understanding of all religions (Heck I've even seen the Buddha's tooth!) but I am not religious. However, from a different approach I fully understand and believe in the Power of Prayer.....

 

My belief in this is NOT that it works as some telephone link to God, but that the Human Mind is greatly misunderstood by most people who use it.

 

A friend embarked on a new career in Hypnotherapy, (then on into stage shows and Life Coaching) and even into Motivational speaking.

 

Part of what he learnt introduced him to such areas as NLP (initially as a strong sales tool allowing you to "programme" a potential client) and then on into Aura's and some of the weird energy stuff.

 

What he learnt is that the power of focused thought can be very strong, (jokes aside, I since found out it is covered in Dan Brown's book - the Science of Noetics). (Look at Saints the past years - the Negative Energy affected all of us not just in fotball but also in us being "down" to some extent in our normal lives, and the Positive Energy today and our ability to have debates like this)

 

We used this "entry level understanding of the Human Brain or amateur psychology as a tool to drive behavioural changes across a wide cultural/racial spread of my corporate clients.

 

Positive Thinking exercises, concentrating on the same simple ideals and objectives when held as a group exercise worked. It was a heck of a gamble, and I got derided for it at the beginning, but now it is part of corporate life in a company employing 17,000 people, so it DID get proven to work

 

In fact, not only did we change behaviours in the clients, but for some we changed their outlook on life, one character, who, as a Good Muslim, accepted the fact that his core beliefs did not change, but the way he looked at his life did, he termed the experience "like a religious conversion", he attends his mosque now understanding the power of so many minds focusing the same way, he changed his attitude and approach to his family, his work and has found a fulfillment in his life and goals.

 

Now, the journey into understanding how to use these tools to be more effective in my work took in an understanding of healing. It won't mend a broken bone or likely cause cancer cells to go away, but it can make you feel better, in my case a knee injury caused muscles to spasm which resulted in great pain. The healing technique relaxed the muslces, no pain and an understanding of how to stop the spasms happening by relaxing. The power of "focused thought"

 

Imagine then the power of many people "praying" are they "giving God a quick call on the mobile"? or does that energy have a more positive impact on them - making them FEEL better, more positive..... A whole world of science there.

 

So, my answer is simple. When making a broad brushed statement about anything to do with Religion, there will actually be thousands of tangents that the answer can come from.

 

As they will not be the answer the question was designed to generate, that causes a discord and a the normal response will be an attempt to say NO I MEANT... which, at the end of the day is where the entire problem with intolerance, varities of differing interpretations all stem from.

 

Prayer as a focused energy has enormous power because the human mind has enormous power. (I think most Freshers at So'ton Uni will have seen Alan Bates Stage show- he got us into looking at this stuff - THAT story is also for another day!).

 

My issue with religion is that it is about "some blokes" interpreting or explaining "their" relationship with God, and then not understanding that others may wonder why, of all the Prophets and stories of that time, these two were the ones who came to the fore. My issue with "understanding the Power of Prayer" is that it MAY actually be something very important in our lives because of the nature of our brains, that has been obscured or (even) hijacked by religion.

Seek First to Understand - that's the gospel according to Saint Stephen Covey. Works for me!

 

I agree 100% with that last comment Phil and a thought provoking post. The leap of faith from the musings of some worthy scribes to 'God' is a difficult one but some of those writings are actually a pretty decent way to live your life and if we took existentialism to its natural conclusion (in my uneducated opinion) wouldn't we have a from of anarchy?

 

Seek First to Understand - can also be the path of vilification in my experience as the majority don't always appreciate their faith being tested.

[Nineteen Canteen]

A question to the non-religious peeps on here. How can you prove that God (or an supreme being) does not exist? if you cant prove it, how come you are so sure that it (he/she) doesnt?

 

Pancake, that for me is the whole crux of the matter. I want to believe but I can't take that enormous leap of faith despite making in my opinion a worthy attempt at trying. The question works both ways and it is the ultimate dilemma.

[Pancake]

Pancake, that for me is the whole crux of the matter. I want to believe but I can't take that enormous leap of faith despite making in my opinion a worthy attempt at trying. The question works both ways and it is the ultimate dilemma.

 

Same problem with me, hence my initial post on page one. I choose to describe myself as religious and I *think* I believe in a god-like "force" but I cant go the whole hog and believe.

[Verbal]

And who said it shouldn't? Do you agree with me that some of the morality in the Bible is vile and evil?

 

It's all but irrelevant.

 

Religious texts, by definition, can be read any number of ways. You can be an axe murderer and claim religious motivation, or you can be the most altruistic person, and argue that your moral convictions stem from religious faith.

 

I personally believe all religion is twaddle, but that doesn't give me the license to decry people who believe. But what is demonstrably wrong - and immoral - is to declare that anyone with a particular faith as inherently evil because of that belief.

 

In the end, it's their actions and the consequences of those actions on which anyone should be judged. I think we can all agree that Osama bin Laden, because of his belief in mass murder as a fund-raising tool, is a particularly evil individual. And the child-snatching gangs in East Africa, under the influence of a fundamentalist Christian leader, are hardly sanctified by their loud profession of faith.

 

Not, of course, that lack of faith is necessarily the road to enlightenment either. It's easily forgotten that Stalin and his brand of state-religion communism killed far more than Hitler.

Edited 6 November, 2009 by Verbal

[Draino76]

The end for me and Christianity came during one service where audience members were invited to come forward and share their experience of a 'weekend retreat' they had attended. One young impressionable teenage girl got up and spoke about how a teenage boy with a broken leg had hands lay upon him and he was able to take of his cast and walk right in front of them. I stood up after a quick word with my wife and took my family out and have never been back and that was about 8 years ago. Would you believe a cure like that or am I just being cynical?

 

You articulate well an a on one of lifes most complicated subjects; then leave your faith because of this? This suggests you did not have 'faith' in the first place.

[dubai_phil]

I agree 100% with that last comment Phil and a thought provoking post. The leap of faith from the musings of some worthy scribes to 'God' is a difficult one but some of those writings are actually a pretty decent way to live your life and if we took existentialism to its natural conclusion (in my uneducated opinion) wouldn't we have a from of anarchy?

 

Seek First to Understand - can also be the path of vilification in my experience as the majority don't always appreciate their faith being tested.

 

It's important at the end of the day IMHO that the core tenet of "non-extreme" Religion is choice.

 

You can choose to have an opinion, you can choose to understand more. I am not the type to read, but I (as I keep saying) have been lucky enough to travel and experience many different cultures, so I OBSERVE and I analyse for myself.

 

I would never "Preach" - for example a critical thing we learnt when trying the behaviour change was that simply "explaining the new product/service/solution concept" simply did NOT work. That is highly relevant to my onpion of "PREACHING". What we learnt was that "leading people to make up their own minds" by showing them - for example that their life belief (not Religious) systems COULD be wrong, then came understanding and change resulted.

 

The PROBLEM with religion can be seen in a microcosm on this thread (and the forum) Preaching YOUR view, as opposed to allowing or helping people to find their own "happy place".

 

The whole formal repititive style of current religions IS important to many people, so i can accept that. What I cannot accept is some mad Mullah or some Bible Belt nut ordering me to see things their way.

 

And that is the problem, the Human Mind, Prayer, Comfort, Belief systems are all linked, but people who understand how to "manipulate" (eg Adolf H or Abu Moosa or the Inquisition et al for example) can do so much harm when people don't understand they are being "programmed". Such a fine line.

 

I saw my first stage Hypno show with Alan Bates down here. I truly believed the people on stage were ringers and hamming it up. Getting to learn more about it, seeing friends have problems solved through it, heck even seeing my son dancing ballet on a stage made me seek to understand it. Much of the training that my pal went through looks very closely into this whole aspect. You won't find it in any old philosophers books and I'm no literary genius, but it IS really interesting

 

Anyway Fridat brunch time and then off to day two of our music festival , you lot get back to philosophers and all that

[View From The Top]

A question to the non-religious peeps on here. How can you prove that God (or an supreme being) does not exist? if you cant prove it, how come you are so sure that it (he/she) doesnt?

 

Sorry, that's silly.

 

It's not up to the non believers to prove anything.

[Pancake]

Sorry, that's silly.

 

It's not up to the non believers to prove anything.

 

So, by that token, you are saying that non-believers have to just have faith that there is no God? Isnt that the same thing they use to degrade those that have faith that there is a God? When the principle point of a subject cannot be proved or disproved, it takes a leap of faith from both sides to believe in their view point.

[hypochondriac]

Sorry, that's silly.

 

It's not up to the non believers to prove anything.

 

If you are asking for proof then you misunderstand the concept of religion.

[View From The Top]

If you are asking for proof then you misunderstand the concept of religion.

 

Not at all, as I've stated, I understand it's all about faith and not proof but it is silly to ask (not you, Pancake) to disprove something.

 

The emphasis is on believers to provide the proof.

[aintforever]

So, by that token, you are saying that non-believers have to just have faith that there is no God? Isnt that the same thing they use to degrade those that have faith that there is a God? When the principle point of a subject cannot be proved or disproved, it takes a leap of faith from both sides to believe in their view point.

 

Non believers would believe, if there was any evidence.

 

If I saw a fat bloke in a red suit flying through the air in a sleigh pulled by flying Reindeers I would believe in Santa. I wouldn't believe it could be true just because it said so in some book and some people told me.

[badgerx16]

The emphasis is on believers to provide the proof.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. God will permit us to see exactly what He wants us to see, and to discover exactly what He wants us to discover. The decline in faith in western societies has accelerated with the expansion of scientific understanding. However, the more questions we answer, the more we seem to uncover that we don't understand.

Which is less likely; (1) that somewhere there is an overseer with a guiding hand taking an 'arms length' benevolent custody of the human spirit, or (2) that life on Earth, ( in this particularly insignificant corner of one of billions of galaxies, in a universe that apparently originated spontaneously from a single point in a 'big bang' where there was previously nothing ), is completely due to a series of random mathematical chances ?

 

However, if it was possible to prove, beyond a doubt, that God existed, it would destroy faith. It would probably also destroy humanity, as we would all, suddenly be aware that we weren't in ultimate control of anything, and effectively no better than lab rats, ( Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, anybody? ).

Edited 6 November, 2009 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

For somebody who thought himself a thoroughly rational, scientific, chap, I'm sounding horribly 'happy clappy' today

[Pancake]

Not at all, as I've stated, I understand it's all about faith and not proof but it is silly to ask (not you, Pancake) to disprove something.

 

The emphasis is on believers to provide the proof.

 

Non believers would believe, if there was any evidence.

 

If I saw a fat bloke in a red suit flying through the air in a sleigh pulled by flying Reindeers I would believe in Santa. I wouldn't believe it could be true just because it said so in some book and some people told me.

 

Credit to you both for replying, but I feel you have both missed my point. Maybe I didnt put it well enough, sorry if that was the case.

 

I wasnt asking for anyone to prove of the non-existance of God.

 

 

• There is NO proof that God does exist.
  

 

• There is NO proof that God doesnt exist.
  

To subscribe to either train of though replies on an amount of 'faith' in what you believe is right, due to the dichotomy above; and yet the burden always rest on those that do believe to try and prove it and ask why believe in something that cannot be proved. When asked how they can prove the God doesnt exist and how they can believe something they cant rpove, normally the reply from the non-religious is as above from VFTT and saintsforever (not picking on you chaps, you understand).

[dubai_phil]

Credit to you both for replying, but I feel you have both missed my point. Maybe I didnt put it well enough, sorry if that was the case.

 

I wasnt asking for anyone to prove of the non-existance of God.

 

 

• There is NO proof that God does exist.
  

• There is NO proof that God doesnt exist.
  

To subscribe to either train of though replies on an amount of 'faith' in what you believe is right, due to the dichotomy above; and yet the burden always rest on those that do believe to try and prove it and ask why believe in something that cannot be proved. When asked how they can prove the God doesnt exist and how they can believe something they cant rpove, normally the reply from the non-religious is as above from VFTT and saintsforever (not picking on you chaps, you understand).

 

 

And the killer response to that question is of course....

 

Define God....

 

If I prove that Dark Matter is controlled by an unknown force, could that be defined as an all knowing Force?

 

Which definition would you use to disprove it? Your understanding from your experience, reading and teaching or should we disprove the existance of the one the Taliban think exists.

 

I like the middle ground as always. Too many dark holes to drop down.

 

Didn't someone once say God is in your belief, so you can believe you are God.

 

Too much for this time of day, off gigging

[JustMike]

Im a believer, used to goto church as a youngster every sunday, its only as i have got older that realised you dont have to goto church and sing hymns etc to be a believer.

 

My faith is there because i believe that there must be more than "this". This existance.

[Special K]

Ignoring the temptation to define God as a tangible entity, surely the presence of an individuals belief in a God is enough to prove it's existence; at least to that person. Whilst some may want "proof" to be factual, faith does not require irrefutable evidence to be true and valid.

[dubai_phil]

Ignoring the temptation to define God as a tangible entity, surely the presence of an individuals belief in a God is enough to prove it's existence; at least to that person. Whilst some may want "proof" to be factual, faith does not require irrefutable evidence to be true and valid.

 

So, Pancake's question can be answered.

 

Do you believe in God? Yes therefore it can be proven to you that He exists

Do you believe in God? No, therefore etc.

 

The problem then becomes

Do you believe in God? I don't know, convince me.....

[Pancake]

So, Pancake's question can be answered.

 

Do you believe in God? Yes therefore it can be proven to you that He exists

Do you believe in God? No, therefore etc.

 

The problem then becomes

Do you believe in God? I don't know, convince me.....

 

But thats not my question, Phil...

[belgrave]

...so what is the difference between belief in god and belief in any number of other superstitions ?

[aintforever]

Ignoring the temptation to define God as a tangible entity, surely the presence of an individuals belief in a God is enough to prove it's existence; at least to that person. Whilst some may want "proof" to be factual, faith does not require irrefutable evidence to be true and valid.

 

So what you're saying is, Santa does exist as long as you believe he does?

 

So what ever you believe is true - is true, because in your mind it exists.

[Matthew Le God]

A question to the non-religious peeps on here. How can you prove that God (or an supreme being) does not exist? if you cant prove it, how come you are so sure that it (he/she) doesnt?

 

No-one can. But what can be proved is that the God of the Bible is a vile dictator that thinks infanticide, murder, rape, homophobia, ethnic cleansing etc etc is OK in his name. It is not the role of the non-believer to disprove something, it is the role of the believer to prove it. Otherwise I could claim I believe in a celestial teapot orbiting the sun or a flying spaghetti monster - you can't disprove either.

[Verbal]

Credit to you both for replying, but I feel you have both missed my point. Maybe I didnt put it well enough, sorry if that was the case.

 

I wasnt asking for anyone to prove of the non-existance of God.

 

 

• There is NO proof that God does exist.
  

 

• There is NO proof that God doesnt exist.
  

To subscribe to either train of though replies on an amount of 'faith' in what you believe is right, due to the dichotomy above; and yet the burden always rest on those that do believe to try and prove it and ask why believe in something that cannot be proved. When asked how they can prove the God doesnt exist and how they can believe something they cant rpove, normally the reply from the non-religious is as above from VFTT and saintsforever (not picking on you chaps, you understand).

 

I think it's a false dichotomy. Any properly thought-through atheism does not depend on proving or disproving the existence of a god. 'Proof' is a scientific concept. You can't apply science to faith. (Not that it hasn't been tried, as the creationists and their close relatives, the intelligent designers attest.)

 

The idea of a god is simply - to an atheist - uninteresting.

[Pancake]

No-one can. But what can be proved is that the God of the Bible is a vile dictator that thinks infanticide, murder, rape, homophobia, ethnic cleansing etc etc is OK in his name. It is not the role of the non-believer to disprove something, it is the role of the believer to prove it. Otherwise I could claim I believe in a celestial teapot orbiting the sun or a flying spaghetti monster - you can't disprove either.

 

Once again, you seemed to miss the point of what I was saying. Myabe I was being to subtle. But thanks for backing up the view I expressed a few posts ago!

[Matthew Le God]

Once again, you seemed to miss the point of what I was saying. Myabe I was being to subtle. But thanks for backing up the view I expressed a few posts ago!

 

You are right there is no proof that God does or doesn't exist.

 

However it is clear that the Bible has very evil morals in it. For example the Bible clearly states rape, infanticide, ethnic cleansing, murder, homophobia etc etc is OK in God's view. No interruption needed it is there in it word for word as clear as day. The Bible should be banned from publication under UK and International law for those reasons. Any other book would be.

[Matthew Le God]

Num 1 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

 

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

 

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

 

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

 

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

 

No person in the world can possibly think these are from a good moral code book!!! This book should be banned.

[badgerx16]

However it is clear that the Bible has very evil morals in it. For example the Bible clearly states rape, infanticide, ethnic cleansing, murder, homophobia etc etc is OK in God's view. No interruption needed it is there in it word for word as clear as day. The Bible should be banned from publication under UK and International law for those reasons. Any other book would be.

Is that 4 or 5 posts on this thread in which you have posted the self same thing ?

 

The mistake you are making is to equate the Bible, in it's entireity, ( the majority of which is a quite aggresive Jewish religious tradition, - which I accept is in places unacceptable ), and the teachings of Jesus, as given out in the New Testament, and upon which the Christian faith is built.

Where does Jesus, ( remember he was rejected by the Jews as a false prophet, though funnily enough he is accepted as a true prophet by Islam ), ordain infanticide , rape, murder, etc, etc. This is the God of peace, of love thy neighbour, of forgiveness, of healing and compassion. Which is precisely why the Jews, in their desire for a sword weilding God of wrath rejected him. It is not God's, or Jesus's, fault that people have used the more agressive traditions to argue the wrong message.

[Matthew Le God]

For those that say that Jesus in the new testament is fine and you should ignore the vengeful god of the old why is the old testament even used? I can find lots of evil teaching of Jesus its just these are ignore by christians.

Edited 6 November, 2009 by Matthew Le God

[Pancake]

You are right there is no proof that God does or doesn't exist.

 

However it is clear that the Bible has very evil morals in it. For example the Bible clearly states rape, infanticide, ethnic cleansing, murder, homophobia etc etc is OK in God's view. No interruption needed it is there in it word for word as clear as day. The Bible should be banned from publication under UK and International law for those reasons. Any other book would be.

 

TBF, your constant Bible bashing is as boring as constant Bible-bashing. I have a feeling you are just copying an pasting your previous posts over and over in some odd attempt at winding up those on here who "believe". The funny thing is, most have already said that there are portions of the Bible that, if take on face value and literally, make for rather uncomfortable reading and are plain wrong. Yet you feel the need to keep pointing it out, over and over. Why?

 

I'm not going to try and argue the toss with you over your specific points as Hypo tried that yesterday and all he got was the same quote time and time again - and frankly I don't have the time or patience to sit through swathes of quotes, counter quotes, interpretations and meanings on a Friday afternoon when my son is waiting for me to play Lego with him.

 

I'll leave you with this. The items you list above are, from memory, all mention in the more vitriolic books of the Old Testament. If one is to take the OT at face value, then they are missing the point more that someone who takes the New Testament at face value. To say you believe that the OT God was OK with rape, murder etc is also to say that you believe the OT God also created the world in 7 days and we started from Adam and Eve. You either believe it all or you dont. You can chose which bits you want to learn from or see the true meaning in, thats a different matter. Its all to some extent, falsified information as none of it is written by "God" themself; it is all simply the writers explanation of what has happened and why they think it has. If God does exist, would he really have "ordered" his followers to rape and kill children? Somehow I doubt that would the MO of any omnipresent deity. Or is it more likely that a hardcore band of 'God followers' undertook some actions against another group of people and tried to justify it after the event in the form of a story?

[Pancake]

MLG, seriously when you start to use phrases like "here is proof Jesus was lying" you start to look a bit like a conspiracy theorist.