hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Are you saying the Crusades were not based on religion? I am not suitably qualified to make a real judgement but I would say no, in my view it was misguided and against my christian values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 (edited) I am not suitably qualified to make a real judgement but I would say no, in my view it was misguided and against my christian values. The crusades had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule. No academic historian would say anything other than that. Edited 5 November, 2009 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 The bible like every belief is open to interpretation. People may choose to take it literally if they like. Others (like myself) may read it and form a different opinion. You may read it and find vile and evil parts and that is your right. My personal interpretation is different and that is basically would religion should be about. So are you saying infanticide, ethnic cleansing and homophobia are moral? Because all are said to be fine in the Bible. How else do you interrupt those bits of the Bible? Im intrigued what spin you put on them if you don't think they are evil why are they in the Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 I dislike how science is supposedly infallable, when I blatantly showed in my uberlong post that it is based on faith in the exact same way that religion is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 So are you saying infanticide, ethnic cleansing and homophobia are moral? Because all are said to be fine in the Bible. How else do you interrupt those bits of the Bible? Im intrigued what spin you put on them if you don't think they are evil why are they in the Bible? If you wish to PM me then I will give you my answer. I don't want to write on this topic on here any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 The crusades had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule. No academic historian would say anything other than that. Nowhere in the bible does it say that the crusades are moral and just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 I dislike how science is supposedly infallable' date=' when I blatantly showed in my uberlong post that it is based on faith in the exact same way that religion is.[/quote'] You clearly don't understand what the scientific method is. The whole point in science is that you develop a hypothesis and it is test and retesting to try and prove it wrong. It is also peer assessed with other academics to see if it stands up and gives evidence. Religion is the complete obvious as it has no evidence that can be tested or peer assessed and is based in blind pre historic myths and faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkiesaint Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 I dislike how science is supposedly infallable' date=' when I blatantly showed in my uberlong post that it is based on faith in the exact same way that religion is.[/quote'] Mr Orn, your faith in the ultimate fallibility of reason seems to be odds with your faith in the infallibility of your own reason... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Whilst I think he Bible is a load of made up fairytales and God obviously does not exist I do think religion has played an important role in our civilization. I've been reading alot of the People's War stories on the BBC and one thing that I noticed was how everyone was more religious back then. They also seemed to have a higher standard of morals than today, more respect for authority and others, better manners and just a more decent upstanding existence in general. Today we have allsorts or riches and comforts but the world we live in is materialistic, shallow and devoid of almost any decency and morals in comparison. It may be nothing to do with religion just the way the World has changed but I think Christianity played a big role in creating a decent world - especially in the days where "thou shall not kill" was a groundbreaking idea. Also to be fair, during the War millions of people were gassed to death in central Europe by a Christian country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Nowhere in the bible does it say that the crusades are moral and just. Well the Crusades happened after the Bible was written. But those taking part in the Crusades found justification in the scripture to go on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 You clearly don't understand what the scientific method is. The whole point in science is that you develop a hypothesis and it is test and retesting to try and prove it wrong. It is also peer assessed with other academics to see if it stands up and gives evidence. Religion is the complete obvious as it has no evidence that can be tested or peer assessed and is based in blind pre historic myths and faith. The scientific method is not absolute. Anything empirical is unverifiable, though it is obviously reasonable to place faith in that, as opposed to religion, but it's hypocritical to claim that science is right and religion is merely blind faith. The problem of induction is what means everything can reasonably be doubted. Science can never be shown to be 100% correct, unless we had infinite time to induct the 'facts' which arise from experimentation, which we obviously don't have. It's not that 'science is wrong', but philosophically, the scientific method is most definitely imperfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Whilst I think he Bible is a load of made up fairytales and God obviously does not exist I do think religion has played an important role in our civilization. I've been reading alot of the People's War stories on the BBC and one thing that I noticed was how everyone was more religious back then. They also seemed to have a higher standard of morals than today, more respect for authority and others, better manners and just a more decent upstanding existence in general. Today we have allsorts or riches and comforts but the world we live in is materialistic, shallow and devoid of almost any decency and morals in comparison. It may be nothing to do with religion just the way the World has changed but I think Christianity played a big role in creating a decent world - especially in the days where "thou shall not kill" was a groundbreaking idea. Can you name one moral action that a Christian can do that I as an atheist cannot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Mr Orn, your faith in the ultimate fallibility of reason seems to be odds with your faith in the infallibility of your own reason... Indeed, and I accept this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Religion is not the only reason given for war and thus religion is not wholly responsible for war. Well I never. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Can you name one moral action that a Christian can do that I as an atheist cannot? No, that's why I think Religion is now out-dated, advances in science mean most of us know that there isn't some god sat on a cloud judging us. It has performed a role though, and although many evils have been done in the name of religion I would bet that if it wasn't for it's moral guidance in the past there would have been a hell of alot more - humans can be pretty nasty animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 I dislike how science is supposedly infallable' date=' when I blatantly showed in my uberlong post that it is based on faith in the exact same way that religion is.[/quote'] You offered an opinion, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkiesaint Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Indeed' date=' and I accept this. [/quote'] As a remedy I suggest restoring your faith in scientific reasoning. As a scientist I find the big difference with religion is the lack of a standard protocol for turning water into wine. Or maybe its add grapes and yeast, wait 72 hours stirring occasionally... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 You offered an opinion, nothing more. It's not an opinion. You cannot induct anything, you cannot be certain of anything, everything can be looked upon with reasonable scepticism, to believe in anything requires FAITH in your senses, in your observations, in the testimony of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 As a remedy I suggest restoring your faith in scientific reasoning. As a scientist I find the big difference with religion is the lack of a standard protocol for turning water into wine. Or maybe its add grapes and yeast, wait 72 hours stirring occasionally... You misunderstand me, I have faith in scientific reasoning, but faith is 'a leap', accepting the axioms of mathematics is a 'leap of faith', as is belief in religion. One may have more evidence in its favour, but regardless, neither has absolute proof, and both require faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Throughout human history over the globe there have been approximately 10,000 "Gods" worshipped by man kind according to academic research. Every religious person doesn't believe in 9,999 of these Gods and believes in theirs. Why do they reject these other Gods when there is just as much evidence for the Judeo-CHristian God as there is for Thor the thunder God or an Aztec God or Ra the Egyptian Sun God. Religion throughout history is "largely" based on what religion you parents are and what country and year you were born. If any of the Christians or Muslim on this forum was born in Egypt in 1000BC their parents would have introduced them to the Egyptian Gods and not the Judeo-Christian God. Same goes if they were born in any other part of the world or time period. Makes a mockery of religious belief if your religion is based on geography and time period of your birth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S01pSB857Lc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 It's not an opinion. You cannot induct anything' date=' you cannot be certain of anything, everything can be looked upon with reasonable scepticism, to believe in anything requires FAITH in your senses, in your observations, in the testimony of others.[/quote'] In your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Whilst I think he Bible is a load of made up fairytales and God obviously does not exist I do think religion has played an important role in our civilization. I've been reading alot of the People's War stories on the BBC and one thing that I noticed was how everyone was more religious back then. They also seemed to have a higher standard of morals than today, more respect for authority and others, better manners and just a more decent upstanding existence in general. Today we have allsorts or riches and comforts but the world we live in is materialistic, shallow and devoid of almost any decency and morals in comparison. It may be nothing to do with religion just the way the World has changed but I think Christianity played a big role in creating a decent world - especially in the days where "thou shall not kill" was a groundbreaking idea. Also to be fair, during the War millions of people were gassed to death in central Europe by a Christian country. It's a point my dad makes very well. Look at the 19th century and early 20th and how big British businesses such as Cadburys looked after their workers and the local community. Look at what religion the owners were and how it shaped their behaviour. No matter what you think of religion, it's a shame that this was lost. And that's my final word on the matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Well, there either isn't a god or there is a god? One group is going to be wrong and one is going to be right... no arguments there. A christian might look at Hinduism for example and they can see that clearly it is 'wrong' and their religion is 'right'. In other words, they are an athiest to this religion. Why can't they see that this is how us athiests see their religion?! Along with every other one... There is no evidence for any of it at all, it's all based on faith. Religion is just a vehicle to control the masses and the source of much evil for millenia. I think we could all get on a lot better if we stopped messing about with it, and instead focused on joining together and other issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 In your opinion. No. The problem of induction is acknowledged by most of the great philosophers, including staunch empiricist rationalist Hume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Why do you need to be told what is moral by God? Why can't you deduce that for yourself? I have and I'm not a Christian and have led a live that would be considered good by most Christians yet I an atheist. You don't need the Bible or Koren for this and it isn't left open for interruption and issues arising from this. Why did God send his messenger to bronze age middle east to spread his word? A time when communication was poor and came 98,000 years after the first modern human. He left humans for 98,000 year and then decided to intervene in a way with Jesus that would take 1000 years to reach South East Asia and 1700 years to reach Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 The fact that lots of people believed in ridiculous notions of God in the distant past, obviously shows deficiency in their capacity for reason, indicating that perhaps deduction of 'right' morals would be 'beyond them' and thus they'd need religion to prescribe morality for them. That is why religion was needed to prescribe morality for the masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 No. The problem of induction is acknowledged by most of the great philosophers' date=' including staunch empiricist rationalist Hume. [/quote'] If, as you state, you cannot be certain of anything, then all you can offer is your opinion. Therefore you have only offered your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 The fact that lots of people believed in ridiculous notions of God in the distant past' date=' obviously shows deficiency in their capacity for reason, indicating that perhaps deduction of 'right' morals would be 'beyond them' and thus they'd need religion to prescribe morality for them. That is why religion was needed to prescribe morality for the masses.[/quote'] Can I just add, religion is not needed to tell you what is right or wrong, but some find it helpful to use it as a moral compass. Personally I have seen how Christianity can affect the lives of others for the better and I've seen the changes it can bring about in people. It's clearly not everyone's cup off tea, but for many it can have a positive and lasting impact upon their lives. Nothing wrong with that IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Universe existed for 14 billion years The earth has existed for 6 billion of years. Life on this planet has existed for 600 million years Modern man for 100,000 years For 98,000 years god watched Human kind with arms folded whilst people died normally at 25 and yet he did nothing God sends Jesus 2,000 years ago to the largely illiterate middle East to spread his word and ignores all those in other parts of the world that are unaware of Jesus. Would take 1700 years for Jesus to reach Australia. In the history of the earth 98.9% of all species has become extinct - God is incompetent at his job if he has any power to influence things on the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 If, as you state, you cannot be certain of anything, then all you can offer is your opinion. Therefore you have only offered your opinion. The only thing, of which I can be certain, is that I am not certain. This presents a contradiction, but only as certainty in belief is in itself, generally, a contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Universe existed for 14 billion years The earth has existed for 6 billion of years. Life on this planet has existed for 600 million years Modern man for 100,000 years For 98,000 years god watched Human kind with arms folded whilst people died normally at 25 and yet he did nothing God sends Jesus 2,000 years ago to the largely illiterate middle East to spread his word and ignores all those in other parts of the world that are unaware of Jesus. Would take 1700 years for Jesus to reach Australia. In the history of the earth 98.9% of all species has become extinct - God is incompetent at his job if he has any power to influence things on the earth. The christian arguemnt you get to this is 'God moves in mysterious ways'. Now that is a joke argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 The arguments being put forward by the majority as 'Christian arguments' are a bit of a joke. I know it's unlikely the general populous will be versed in the writings of Aquinas (I can't say I am either), but he basically plagiarises Aristotle and applies it to Christian thought. It is rather good and almost reasonable, unlike the ridiculous stuff spouted by some claiming to be 'christian arguments'. They may be the arguments of the common Christian, but are not representative of the views of Christian scholars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 The christian arguemnt you get to this is 'God moves in mysterious ways'. Now that is a joke argument. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 If there IS a God, then on Judgement Day the faithful will gather round saying "See, I told you so". If there isn't all that happens is when you die the switch gets turned off and your chemical constituents get re-cycled, over and over again until, eventually, the Earth will disappear; first into a super-nova, and ultimately into a Black Hole. On that basis, you pay your money and you make your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 If there IS a God, then on Judgement Day the faithful will gather round saying "See, I told you so". If there isn't all that happens is when you die the switch gets turned off and your chemical constituents get re-cycled, over and over again until, eventually, the Earth will disappear; first into a super-nova, and ultimately into a Black Hole. On that basis, you pay your money and you make your choice. Not sure it happens quite like that but I take your point. There's a good series of fiction books actually called left behind. An atheist friend borrowed them and actually found them quite an interesting read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Christianity is a regime where you are judged and punished for your actions forever. It is wicked to teach this to children to make them behave. It is far easier to lead a good life if you know you have one life and that is it. As an atheist you can live to the full where as as a christian you either go to hell or to heaven where you have to worship forever which is a horrendous concept and there is no way you cannot opt out. It is a truly scary concept and one that deserves as much ridicule as that given to scientology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Sigh. Ok... the argument you get from those with religion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Christianity is a regime where you are judged and punished for your actions forever. It is wicked to teach this to children to make them behave. It is far easier to lead a good life if you know you have one life and that is it. As an atheist you can live to the full where as as a christian you either go to hell or to heaven where you have to worship forever which is a horrendous concept and there is no way you cannot opt out. It is a truly scary concept and one that deserves as much ridicule as that given to scientology. Catholicism doesn't require acceptance of Christianity to gain entry to heaven, merely good deeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 (edited) Any religious people here... Do you believe in the power of prayer? Edited 5 November, 2009 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Ok... the argument you get from those with religion... Is clearly varied depending upon who you speak to. There is not one group called "christians" just as there is not one group called "atheists". To group them all together and say "this is what christians believe" is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Will Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 (edited) Any religious people here... Do you believe in the power of prayer? I've read a load of books that encourage the power of prayer (The Power of The Subconscious Mind, The Four Agreements, etc etc) and the conclusion I made was that prayer has nothing to do with religion. Religion uses prayer, but ultimately, the power of prayer is a way of programming your own thoughts, rather than communicating to a god. Edited 5 November, 2009 by St Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Is clearly varied depending upon who you speak to. There is not one group called "christians" just as there is not one group called "atheists". To group them all together and say "this is what christians believe" is absurd. Why hasn't God made himself known in the same way to everyone? Why has he allowed there to be 10,000 gods throughout human history? Why do you believe in the Judeo-christian god and not Thor the Norse Thunder God? Same amount of evidence for both, yet you reject the 9,999 other gods because im guesing you were born into a western family between 1900-2010. Any other parentage throughout history and the globe and you would view the judeo-christian god in the same way you think of the 9,999. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Look, if your just going to go through a list of beliefs and ridicule them then there really is no point in this thread. The very nature of faith means that there are many things which cannot be proven and never will be. Many people do believe in things such as the power of prayer and whilst I personally cannot say that this works, I am not an omnipresent being who can be everywhere at once so I can never definitively say that there is nothing in it. It's like when I say "there's no such thing as ghosts." I can't prove it, it's just what I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Nothing can be absolutely proven, though, as I feel I've shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Why hasn't God made himself known in the same way to everyone? Not sure what you mean there Why has he allowed there to be 10,000 gods throughout human history? He never allowed anything other than giving humans the freedom to make their own choices. Read the bits in the bible relating to false prophets and idols. Why do you believe in the Judeo-christian god and not Thor the Norse Thunder God? Same amount of evidence for both, yet you reject the 9,999 other gods because im guesing you were born into a western family between 1900-2010. Any other parentage throughout history and the globe and you would view the judeo-christian god in the same way you think of the 9,999. See above. As I have said it is a question of faith and what you believe. Can I also just point out now that this is my interpretation of the bible, I haven't actually stated what I personally believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Nothing can be absolutely proven' date=' though, as I feel I've shown.[/quote'] Yeah as you said. Faith is an interesting thing. Many will dismiss it as rubbish but it's interesting all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Is clearly varied depending upon who you speak to. There is not one group called "christians" just as there is not one group called "atheists". To group them all together and say "this is what christians believe" is absurd. To be honest, I was just stating one of the more common absurd answers they give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 (edited) Look, if your just going to go through a list of beliefs and ridicule them then there really is no point in this thread. The very nature of faith means that there are many things which cannot be proven and never will be. Many people do believe in things such as the power of prayer and whilst I personally cannot say that this works, I am not an omnipresent being who can be everywhere at once so I can never definitively say that there is nothing in it. It's like when I say "there's no such thing as ghosts." I can't prove it, it's just what I believe. It is not the role of the person that believes something doesn't exist to proof their point. Its the role of the believer to prove the existence. Otherwise you could believe in a celestial teapot orbiting the sun or a flying spaghetti monster God. Answer my question. Why don't you believe in Thor the thunder god or the 9,999 other gods throughout human history? Why is Thor less believable than the Judeo-CHristian God? You only believe in the Judeo-Christian God I guess because your parents were christian. In a way you are an atheist to those 9,999 Gods, I have just gone one God more. Why have you rejected these 9,999 Gods? I bet you wouldn't have rejected Thor if you were born in 955 AD and into a Viking family. Edited 5 November, 2009 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 It is not the role of the person that believes something doesn't exist to proof their point. Its the role of the believer to prove the existed and with no evidence they can't. Otherwise you could believe in a celestial teapot orbiting the sun or a flying spaghetti monster. Answer my question. Why don't you believe in Thor the thunder god or the 9,999 other gods throughout human history? Why is Thor less believable than the Judeo-CHristian God? You only believe in the Judeo-Christian God I guess because your parents were christian. In a way you are an atheist to those 9,999 Gods, I have just gone one God more. Why have you rejected these 9,999 Gods? I bet you wouldn't have rejected Thor if you were born in 955 AD and into a Viking family. Of course I cannot prove that God existed. If I could then this thread would not exist. That is what faith is, the belief in something which cannot be proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 I'm officially leaving this thread. Phew I hear some of you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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