Bailey Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Makes our recent attendances look all the more impressive! http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/preston/8342581.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Fan CaM Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Preston - small backwards town with backwards people. Saints - large, progressive, vibrant City with top citizens. Should have stuck around here Chaplow, you loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 I hate this excuse; "The bottom line is people just can't afford to come and if that's the case then who are we to say that they're wrong for doing that". We are f*cking managing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 (edited) Progressive vibrant city with Top citizens? LMAO More like a mediocre city with bags of potential continuously crippled by an inept & largely incompetent city council. A city waiting for something to happen but let down by useless town planners. A nightlife that has never rivalled major cities like London, Brighton, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Nottingham, Leeds, etc. but with a populous that think they're actually better! Don't get me wrong, I don't mind So'ton (I'm entitled to criticise having lived here & spent the last 16 years frequenting the pubs & clubs) but the new socialites seem to have some of the London attitude without the actual premise (or quality venues) to back it up. Saying that, Orange rooms & Revs, etc. are full of estate agents, recruitment consultants, property developers & hairdressers so it is hardly the top end of the city's spectrum of people...no offence to the more moral people on this forum that share the fore-metioned occupations!! ;o) Edited 4 November, 2009 by Gordon Mockles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Jazzbo Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Playing devils advocate. They do have a bit more competition up in the North West, with the likes of Man U, City, Bolton, Blackburn , Burnley, Wigan Blackpool etc within their catchment area Its only half the size of Southampton Having said that, the population density is greater up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dark Sotonic Mills Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Playing devils advocate. They do have a bit more competition up in the North West, with the likes of Man U, City, Bolton, Blackburn , Burnley, Wigan Blackpool etc within their catchment area Its only half the size of Southampton Having said that, the population density is greater up there. That's true; almost everyone I met up there was dense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Jonny Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Progressive vibrant city with Top citizens? LMAO More like a mediocre city with bags of potential continuously crippled by an inept & largely incompetent city council. A city waiting for something to happen but let down by useless town planners. A nightlife that has never rivalled major cities like London, Brighton, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Nottingham, Leeds, etc. but with a populous that think they're actually better! Don't get me wrong, I don't mind So'ton (I'm entitled to criticise having lived here & spent the last 16 years frequenting the pubs & clubs) but the new socialites seem to have some of the London attitude without the actual premise (or quality venues) to back it up. Saying that, Orange rooms & Revs, etc. are full of estate agents, recruitment consultants, property developers & hairdressers so it is hardly the top end of the city's spectrum of people...no offence to the more moral people on this forum that share the fore-metioned occupations!! ;o) what an arrogant w*anker you are.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 what an arrogant w*anker you are.. Now, now!! You don't want to get infractions eh!? Besides, having been born and bred here, that's a pretty accurate opinion to me. Just the fact you've drop kicked your dummy about it doesn't make it arrogant. Unless you think our nightlife and underground music scene rivals the mentioned cities and the council are the epitome of competence? Comparing how Gunwharf was developed and how our city council ruined Ocean Village illustrates a lot. Now go and have a relaxing cup of tea and calm down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Progressive vibrant city with Top citizens? LMAO More like a mediocre city with bags of potential continuously crippled by an inept & largely incompetent city council. A city waiting for something to happen but let down by useless town planners. A nightlife that has never rivalled major cities like London, Brighton, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Nottingham, Leeds, etc. but with a populous that think they're actually better! As a resident of Brighton for the last three years, I would have to agree with this. I can't see any reason to move back home. Soton is, frankly, boring. Take a look around at the identikit shops, pubs and nightlife next time you're in town. Not to mention the lack of anything to do that isn't the aforementioned activities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 what an arrogant w*anker you are.. Forgot to ask, are you an estate agent or recruitment consultant per chance? : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 As a resident of Brighton for the last three years, I would have to agree with this. I can't see any reason to move back home. Soton is, frankly, boring. Take a look around at the identikit shops, pubs and nightlife next time you're in town. Not to mention the lack of anything to do that isn't the aforementioned activities. Thank you! The closing of the Top Rank ice rink (I don't like ice skating but thousands did!) had been chastised for decades. The popular and slightly cosmopolitan vibe Ocean Village used to have thanks to Los Marinos (and the bar maids), Deep Water Quay, JFKs and the like was totally eradicated and replaced by....flats (ker, ching! council tax!). Furthermore, the removal of the OV arcade, Amusement arcade, Laser Quest, Oceans bar, shops and other amenities around Ocean Village . Working in engineering, I have seen some mighty f*ck ups as well as roaring successes, to the damned right questionably planned infrastructure like Liverpool (Paradise Street - pushing out locals to bring in the money via new developments) and Gateshead (where Waterside development bulldozes out the working classes who helped build the cities). However, I haven't in all my time seen a city with so much potential (maritime & medieval history, cruise ships, football fan base, beautifully maintained parks and much greenery from the common [plus events], sports centre, etc. large student numbers, marina, close & strong links to London, SW, SE & Midlands, Lively port, Large Shopping Centres, Boat Show, New Forest, Good musical heritage, etc. to name but a few) stifled by such a short sighted and hugely incompetent city council. How do we rival the Spinnaker Tower? Shoot laser across the city from the civic centre clock....says it all!! Having over-viewed the new Police Command Unit development at the top of West Quay Rd in Southampton, I'll be very keen to see how the area around the civic centre, the old civic centre and the "new arts quarter" (the square around the old 'Plummer's Building opposite the old Tyrells site) is developed. Please try not to f*ck this up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swannymere Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Mockles has hit the nail on the head, Southampton is crap for a night out. It's got no individuality whatsoever and the council has strangled the development of the city for the last 20 years. If you goto Portsmouth and have a look at how much investment has been made by the council and companies into the infrastructure and development like Gunwharf and you can see that this has had an affect all over the city, then look at Southampton and what happened to Ocean Village and what hasn't happened with the waterfront and its completely embarrassing. The council has alot to answer for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
so22saint Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 I've posted on this for years - I can't believe the council have spent so much time ruining the city really - it's a combination of ineptness, small mindedness and incompetence I'd say. I remember going to San Francisco, where they make use of their waterfront, and there was a 5 mile long path right next to the water that everybody can use, with individual shops, excellent bars and cafes and a great culture. When I returned to Southampton to watch the Saints 2 days later, I was stunned to see the new (then) useless lump of tin called Leisure World plonked next to the water, with aa high fence so you can't see anything. I'll always love the place, as I'm born and bred there, but having traveled around the world, I feel fairly qualified to say that it's a place with tonnes of natural potential and ****e implementation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Jonny Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Now, now!! You don't want to get infractions eh!? Besides, having been born and bred here, that's a pretty accurate opinion to me. Just the fact you've drop kicked your dummy about it doesn't make it arrogant. Unless you think our nightlife and underground music scene rivals the mentioned cities and the council are the epitome of competence? Comparing how Gunwharf was developed and how our city council ruined Ocean Village illustrates a lot. Now go and have a relaxing cup of tea and calm down! It was your generalisation of other people that annoyed me, not your opinion of Southampton. And no, im not in any of the aformentioned professions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogerfryisalegend Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Totaly off topic, but when i looked at that article i noticed this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/8342992.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismsaint Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 hi guys it was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 It was your generalisation of other people that annoyed me, not your opinion of Southampton. And no, im not in any of the aformentioned professions. I used to love Orange Rooms & The Lizard Lounge (Revs) & have met many friends there but that doesn't change the fact that a certain clique of chin stroking clientele frequent those venues?! (as well as over indulging footballers under past managers). Tongue in cheek mind. Trends are trends. Well founded generalisations. I'd like to think they're accurate in this case although I was never inferring the entire town. Just an element. Don't fret about it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint in winchester Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 This thread has gone off topic into cultural evaluation and town planning review! ----> LOUNGE! So, any comments on match day attendances? Pretty impressive for L1 generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Sorry for helping drift off topic. Back to the Preston link, I think it's a shame their attendance are dropping. Especially being 1 of the founder members of the football league! They're friendly up North. Wish people were as open & approachable down "saffff" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifford Nelson Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Progressive vibrant city with Top citizens? LMAO More like a mediocre city with bags of potential continuously crippled by an inept & largely incompetent city council. A city waiting for something to happen but let down by useless town planners. A nightlife that has never rivalled major cities like London, Brighton, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Nottingham, Leeds, etc. but with a populous that think they're actually better! Don't get me wrong, I don't mind So'ton (I'm entitled to criticise having lived here & spent the last 16 years frequenting the pubs & clubs) but the new socialites seem to have some of the London attitude without the actual premise (or quality venues) to back it up. Saying that, Orange rooms & Revs, etc. are full of estate agents, recruitment consultants, property developers & hairdressers so it is hardly the top end of the city's spectrum of people...no offence to the more moral people on this forum that share the fore-metioned occupations!! ;o) We are grateful for the help to get a location for SMS, but then the thoughts go to the various Southampton Vikings teams. There is no icerink for the icehockey club and no speedway track for the speedway club. Waiting for things to happen but doing little or nothing to make it happen seem to be the tune, and it doesn't matter what political party who is in power, it's just not happening. However, we have got a cracking football team! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Cracking attendances. Been saying all season, phenomenal support. Will now begin with my 'moved on' attitude & avoid the glaring opportunity to have another dig at the past chairman every other post! Oops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW11_Saint Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Progressive vibrant city with Top citizens? LMAO More like a mediocre city with bags of potential continuously crippled by an inept & largely incompetent city council. A city waiting for something to happen but let down by useless town planners. A nightlife that has never rivalled major cities like London, Brighton, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Nottingham, Leeds, etc. but with a populous that think they're actually better! Hardly think Brighton rates as a "major city" (!!) - they've only just become one for a start - but the nightlife is good there, but it has to be as the city finances are based around tourism, unlike other "working cities" which rely on other, more mundane, commercial activity. Blackpool is similar, although slightly more 'low rent'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Hardly think Brighton rates as a "major city" (!!) - they've only just become one for a start - but the nightlife is good there, but it has to be as the city finances are based around tourism, unlike other "working cities" which rely on other, more mundane, commercial activity. Blackpool is similar, although slightly more 'low rent'. It is in respect of nightlife! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Progressive vibrant city with Top citizens? LMAO More like a mediocre city with bags of potential continuously crippled by an inept & largely incompetent city council. A city waiting for something to happen but let down by useless town planners. A nightlife that has never rivalled major cities like London, Brighton, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Nottingham, Leeds, etc. but with a populous that think they're actually better! Don't get me wrong, I don't mind So'ton (I'm entitled to criticise having lived here & spent the last 16 years frequenting the pubs & clubs) but the new socialites seem to have some of the London attitude without the actual premise (or quality venues) to back it up. Saying that, Orange rooms & Revs, etc. are full of estate agents, recruitment consultants, property developers & hairdressers so it is hardly the top end of the city's spectrum of people...no offence to the more moral people on this forum that share the fore-metioned occupations!! ;o) This is a very accurate post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 I've lived in Cardiff, Nottingham and Bristol, as well as Soton in the last 10 years and Soton has the worse nightlife by far of all of them. That said, it also has less of the worse elements of those cities. If I was in my 40s and looking to settle down I would choose Soton over Cardiff or Nottingham. But I'm not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint-Reece Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Totaly off topic, but when i looked at that article i noticed this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/8342992.stm Hehe, Nice more troubles for them then! What a Shame.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 I've lived in Cardiff, Nottingham and Bristol, as well as Soton in the last 10 years and Soton has the worse nightlife by far of all of them. That said, it also has less of the worse elements of those cities. If I was in my 40s and looking to settle down I would choose Soton over Cardiff or Nottingham. But I'm not. In case my previous post gave the wrong impression, I'm born & bred in Soton (the 16 years was my main/prolific drinking duration up until now, not time in residence). I don't hate the city (I certainly love our football club). I have been loyal, patient & actually been part of the local music scene (as well as the building industry) & spent my entire youth (& a huge amount of energy & money) trying to make a difference. Sadly, I have given up & become disillusioned, despite some successes & a lot of fun & some great memories. Not angry, frustrated. Not just for the nightlife & tendency of the masses to favour cheesey theme bars & binge drinking chain pubs (& I love a drink) over quality venues hosting quality underground music talent, but for the sheer stupidity & ridiculous decisions made over a long period by the local council which has completely & utterly held our city back & the town planning dept. have so much to answer for (deliberately avoiding topics of traffic lights on round abouts & parking costs). They have largely ruined our city. I love Saints & I am grateful for our stadium, the location, the redevelopment of some of the inner city areas, the parks, the below bar market, Oxford St & the repaving & improvement of London Road area. However, I am not happy about much else. Too much to list but it starts with the art gallery curator, it ends with the marina, parking costs, cruise liners & infrastructure & complete imbalance of flats barricading the potential link from town centre shopping to maritime sites & waterfront (with the large void of local amenities serving said apartment zones). [Getting back in track]: It makes me think, if shrewd & intelligent people like Cortese & Liebherr can help implement the glaringly obvious & swiftly improve our fortunes as a football club with good results, happy fans & subsequent soaring attendances following a previous walking timebomb of a chairman & management team in such a short time period, imagine how amazing our little city could be with some wisely spent money - key sporting/leisure venues, some key entertainment venues, additional hotels (millenium hotel anyone?), fluid traffic calming, strong emphasis on redeveloping the cruise liner belt & cashing in on that gold mine, sorting out Ocean Village & some foresight & intelligent town planning! Rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimi_missel90 Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Gordon Mockles your right on the money. I'm born and bred here and have always seen potential. Why can't other people see it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimi_missel90 Posted 4 November, 2009 Share Posted 4 November, 2009 Gordon Mockles you're right on the money. I'm born and bred here and have always seen potential. Why can't other people see it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genghis78 Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 I too agree with everything. Am 31, Southampton born and bred, and am constantly thinking of how much potential we have here, but the seemingly obvious things to build, develop or provide don't get done. But its ok because we've got a communications director on £85k a year to tell us how great everything is in Southampton... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 I've lived in Cardiff, Nottingham and Bristol, as well as Soton in the last 10 years and Soton has the worse nightlife by far of all of them. That said, it also has less of the worse elements of those cities. If I was in my 40s and looking to settle down I would choose Soton over Cardiff or Nottingham. But I'm not. Look at the respective populations of them and you'll see why. Personally, it depends what music scene you're into, but if you're into house Southampton has a mix of the best house DJ's in Britain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disintegration87 Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Southamptons great, there is so much to do, you can get a train to London, or Bristol, or Cardiff, or Brighton its great! Nor can anyone argue with the musical talent that has emerged from Southampton in recent years, such as Craig David and The Delays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Look at the respective populations of them and you'll see why. Personally, it depends what music scene you're into, but if you're into house Southampton has a mix of the best house DJ's in Britain. Errrrr, house is my thing, having been part of the local DJ scene for a number of years. However, the scene isn't strong other than a select under-current who should be commended for their efforts. Yes, we have the Hightide boat parties (but that is not just a local crowd) and Junk (cr*p venue, poor crowd but playing the right music imho). Release @ The Rhino used to be one of the few successful (longest running) nights and that went t*ts up and gave way to cheese. We have produced some good talent - James Zabiela to name but one. Then we have bands like Delays, as well as Artful Dodger, Craig David, etc. Pete Devereux DJs locally and Orange and Mono get in some good DJs but the Southampton crowd are just not a house music crowd and I have seen some well intentioned ethusiasts trying to push a more regular event and it's fallen flat on it's a*se! It's easy to fill up a bar like Orange Rooms with a big name like Plump DJs or James Zabiela (the best names in the most popular bar in the city) but consistent crowds to a similar genre are the problem if wishing to replicate that success in other venues across the city. When you look at successful nights and crowds frequenting the Brighton or Manchester club scene, you'll see my point. Hats off to certain elements of the city for trying. I happen to know many of them and many have tried, some with relative success, but many giving up due to lack of interest (and we're talking some big names and great underground talent). The independent, decent promotions put on some good nights with great talent and make a LOT of effort yet cheesy, main stream music theme bars/clubs that promote the binge drinking/18-30,student crowd seem to achieve more success (90 Degrees, Flares, Reflex, Oceana, etc.) Sad but true. Sorry to drift off topic, yet again but threads lead a wobbly path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Fan CaM Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Progressive vibrant city with Top citizens? LMAO More like a mediocre city with bags of potential continuously crippled by an inept & largely incompetent city council. A city waiting for something to happen but let down by useless town planners. A nightlife that has never rivalled major cities like London, Brighton, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Nottingham, Leeds, etc. but with a populous that think they're actually better! Don't get me wrong, I don't mind So'ton (I'm entitled to criticise having lived here & spent the last 16 years frequenting the pubs & clubs) but the new socialites seem to have some of the London attitude without the actual premise (or quality venues) to back it up. Saying that, Orange rooms & Revs, etc. are full of estate agents, recruitment consultants, property developers & hairdressers so it is hardly the top end of the city's spectrum of people...no offence to the more moral people on this forum that share the fore-metioned occupations!! ;o) Dont' worry GordonM, as the winky thing indicated my post was somewhat tongue in cheek. I have read all your posts on this thread and have to say I completely agree with you. In terms of music, I play live in bands and the venue choices are poor to say the least. Having said that, it all comes down to the punters who cross the threshold and the price of drinks... i.e. prices are daft and punters put off and would rather sit in their comfy sofas in front of their 42" plasmas sipping beer or wine from Tesco that costs 1/3 of the price in a pub etc. Sometimes you can count the audience on one hand! In terms of general City amenities, I completely agree that there is massive potential for Southampton to raise its game. You would have thought that the development of West Quay would have seen further exciting attractions. There was talk of a large Spitfire tower - seems to be just talk. Years ago there was talk of a monorail system (I thought this was a fantastic idea that ticked lots of boxes), but nothing happened. The list goes on and on. Whoever is in charge of City development needs a rocket up their @rse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torbay Saint Posted 5 November, 2009 Share Posted 5 November, 2009 Thank you! The closing of the Top Rank ice rink (I don't like ice skating but thousands did!) had been chastised for decades. The popular and slightly cosmopolitan vibe Ocean Village used to have thanks to Los Marinos (and the bar maids), Deep Water Quay, JFKs and the like was totally eradicated and replaced by....flats (ker, ching! council tax!). Furthermore, the removal of the OV arcade, Amusement arcade, Laser Quest, Oceans bar, shops and other amenities around Ocean Village . Working in engineering, I have seen some mighty f*ck ups as well as roaring successes, to the damned right questionably planned infrastructure like Liverpool (Paradise Street - pushing out locals to bring in the money via new developments) and Gateshead (where Waterside development bulldozes out the working classes who helped build the cities). However, I haven't in all my time seen a city with so much potential (maritime & medieval history, cruise ships, football fan base, beautifully maintained parks and much greenery from the common [plus events], sports centre, etc. large student numbers, marina, close & strong links to London, SW, SE & Midlands, Lively port, Large Shopping Centres, Boat Show, New Forest, Good musical heritage, etc. to name but a few) stifled by such a short sighted and hugely incompetent city council. How do we rival the Spinnaker Tower? Shoot laser across the city from the civic centre clock....says it all!! Having over-viewed the new Police Command Unit development at the top of West Quay Rd in Southampton, I'll be very keen to see how the area around the civic centre, the old civic centre and the "new arts quarter" (the square around the old 'Plummer's Building opposite the old Tyrells site) is developed. Please try not to f*ck this up! I am not sure your analysis of Ocean Village is accurate. The loss of facilities at Ocean Village is market led - the Council has very little influence in making a facility stay or go. As for the ability of the Council's town planners - weren't they the same town planners who assisted the Club with the development of St. Mary's Stadium after the problems asociated with Eastleigh? As an engineer you wouldn't have contact through the development process so it is an unfair judgement call on your part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 6 November, 2009 Share Posted 6 November, 2009 I am not sure your analysis of Ocean Village is accurate. The loss of facilities at Ocean Village is market led - the Council has very little influence in making a facility stay or go. As for the ability of the Council's town planners - weren't they the same town planners who assisted the Club with the development of St. Mary's Stadium after the problems asociated with Eastleigh? As an engineer you wouldn't have contact through the development process so it is an unfair judgement call on your part. Yes, it's up to the purchaser/developer to buy the land/real estate but any design or proposals need approval via the planning dept. Developers don't often buy blindly, then take a wild punt at scraping it through planning. For instance, the town planners decide if Oxford St remains a drinking/eating zone. Obviously, there needs to be a market for restaurants & bars and licencing is also controlled by the council (& influenced by the Police). The same goes for Ocean Village - The apartments built by Wilson Bowden. The council could have pre-determined that only a percentage of the land was apartments & stipulate a requirement for stores, bars or whatever they deemed appropriate (likea coffee shop or chandlers for the yachties). The developers may have pulled out but don't make out the council are powerless. They hold all the cards! They rejected the initial proposals for the Millenium hotel & quayside development surrounding the quay infront of Harbour Lights. Furhermore, it will be interesting to see where Saints fans park if these plans do get the green light. The Wilson Bowden undeveloped site beside Banana Wharf now looks like it's being developed by Barratts *cough* but I am hopeful they do a better job than Oceana Boulevard. I believe some bars & hopefully shops (or something of some intrinsic leisure/entertainment value to the area) are planned but I won't hold my breath. As I previously commented in the positive praise, I noted my gratitude for the stadium (as well as other elements). The council aren't stupid. This brings large amounts of money to the area, as well as extra commerce. Regarding your comments on the development stage, you are wrong. I have every right to comment. I live here. I have also had to work with planning constraints & amend designs to get through planning. That it why some of the hypocrisy astounds me & hence why I don't mince my words. I look at the view from John Lewis restaurant - staring at the huge blue & yellow blot on the landscape & scratch my head, remembering a neighbour removing an entire roof & soffit because it was a couple of millimetres out! :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torbay Saint Posted 6 November, 2009 Share Posted 6 November, 2009 Yes, it's up to the purchaser/developer to buy the land/real estate but any design or proposals need approval via the planning dept. Developers don't often buy blindly, then take a wild punt at scraping it through planning. For instance, the town planners decide if Oxford St remains a drinking/eating zone. Obviously, there needs to be a market for restaurants & bars and licencing is also controlled by the council (& influenced by the Police). The same goes for Ocean Village - The apartments built by Wilson Bowden. The council could have pre-determined that only a percentage of the land was apartments & stipulate a requirement for stores, bars or whatever they deemed appropriate (likea coffee shop or chandlers for the yachties). The developers may have pulled out but don't make out the council are powerless. They hold all the cards! They rejected the initial proposals for the Millenium hotel & quayside development surrounding the quay infront of Harbour Lights. Furhermore, it will be interesting to see where Saints fans park if these plans do get the green light. The Wilson Bowden undeveloped site beside Banana Wharf now looks like it's being developed by Barratts *cough* but I am hopeful they do a better job than Oceana Boulevard. I believe some bars & hopefully shops (or something of some intrinsic leisure/entertainment value to the area) are planned but I won't hold my breath. As I previously commented in the positive praise, I noted my gratitude for the stadium (as well as other elements). The council aren't stupid. This brings large amounts of money to the area, as well as extra commerce. Regarding your comments on the development stage, you are wrong. I have every right to comment. I live here. I have also had to work with planning constraints & amend designs to get through planning. That it why some of the hypocrisy astounds me & hence why I don't mince my words. I look at the view from John Lewis restaurant - staring at the huge blue & yellow blot on the landscape & scratch my head, remembering a neighbour removing an entire roof & soffit because it was a couple of millimetres out! :confused: Again I think you being harsh on the Local Planning Authority. It you had read their Adopted Core Strategy or City Centre Action Plan you would have seen that Ocean Village is identified as a proposed development site. I believe there is even a section on the night time economy. Ocean Village is in private ownership. You are quite right that the LPA does hold all the cards. But aside from allocating and identifying sites for development as they have done, what more can they do? As for parking around the stadium, being involved in devleopment to the degree you claim, I am sure you are aware that the government agenda towards sustainability would encourgage the use of public transport!! In planning terms there are a lot of worse authorities than Southampton! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 6 November, 2009 Share Posted 6 November, 2009 You should try living in Colchester...I would kill for Southampton's night life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 6 November, 2009 Share Posted 6 November, 2009 I've posted on this for years - I can't believe the council have spent so much time ruining the city really - it's a combination of ineptness, small mindedness and incompetence I'd say. I remember going to San Francisco, where they make use of their waterfront, and there was a 5 mile long path right next to the water that everybody can use, with individual shops, excellent bars and cafes and a great culture. When I returned to Southampton to watch the Saints 2 days later, I was stunned to see the new (then) useless lump of tin called Leisure World plonked next to the water, with aa high fence so you can't see anything. I'll always love the place, as I'm born and bred there, but having traveled around the world, I feel fairly qualified to say that it's a place with tonnes of natural potential and ****e implementation Spot on - many cities would die to have the water frontage Southampton has but you only have to look at the state of the Town Quay to see the malaise, ineptitude and poor management of the City's politicians and planners over the years. It is a disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 6 November, 2009 Share Posted 6 November, 2009 I have to admit i do agree with you Mockles. There is so much potential around in the Southampton area especially with all of the cruise liners etc bringing in cash. But the council just don't seem to have any idea how to build on this, have you been down to the cruise liner dock ?? The first thing that the customers from the ships would see are massive piles of rubble from buildings that have been demolished and just left, the car park is almost always covered in a massive blanket of dust. Not really a great advertisement for southampton is it ??? As for redevelopment etc, there has just been nothing, now i agree times are difficult for developers to gain adequate funding etc due to the recession etc however when funding is found nothing seems to get the go ahead. As for the police headquarters site, i guess you work for Kiers then ?? How is it getting on ?? I work for SSE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 6 November, 2009 Share Posted 6 November, 2009 Spot on - many cities would die to have the water frontage Southampton has but you only have to look at the state of the Town Quay to see the malaise, ineptitude and poor management of the City's politicians and planners over the years. It is a disgrace. Totaly agree - I went to South St Seaport in NY last November and the potential Southampton has to do exactly what they have built there is criminal to ignore. As for Ocean Village I know for a fact that a lot of shops and businesses were driven out by the colossal rent that they were subjected to - there were severe financial penalties for shops not being open when they were commited to be. The football club has a lot to be thankful to the council for but its residents do not in the way the city planners have neglected and destroyed this once fine city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 6 November, 2009 Share Posted 6 November, 2009 I have to admit i do agree with you Mockles. There is so much potential around in the Southampton area especially with all of the cruise liners etc bringing in cash. But the council just don't seem to have any idea how to build on this, have you been down to the cruise liner dock ?? The first thing that the customers from the ships would see are massive piles of rubble from buildings that have been demolished and just left, the car park is almost always covered in a massive blanket of dust. Not really a great advertisement for Southampton is it ??? As for redevelopment etc, there has just been nothing, now i agree times are difficult for developers to gain adequate funding etc due to the recession etc however when funding is found nothing seems to get the go ahead. As for the police headquarters site, i guess you work for Kiers then ?? How is it getting on ?? I work for SSE. I think the land by the Cruise Terminals probably belongs to ABP. Can anyone else confirm this?! However, the adjacent industrial estate land is not ABP (& used for Boat Show) so this could be made to doubly good use. I don't work for Kiers. We worked alongside them, being a sub contractor myself, for the duration it took to complete the initial design. We completed our work and I moved on. However, it looks an ok job and nice to be involved with local work that I'll see for years to come. Small site and very restricted and potential problems with the infrequent flood waters but, overall, it should serve the Police well. You should try living in Colchester...I would kill for Southampton's night life! Not meaning to sound rude but comparing the vacuous town of Colchester with Southampton is a bit of a no brainer and an extreme example. All I can think of in Colchester is a military prison and awful roads to gain access into the town. Again I think you being harsh on the Local Planning Authority. It you had read their Adopted Core Strategy or City Centre Action Plan you would have seen that Ocean Village is identified as a proposed development site. I believe there is even a section on the night time economy. Ocean Village is in private ownership. You are quite right that the LPA does hold all the cards. But aside from allocating and identifying sites for development as they have done, what more can they do? As for parking around the stadium, being involved in development to the degree you claim, I am sure you are aware that the government agenda towards sustainability would encourage the use of public transport!! In planning terms there are a lot of worse authorities than Southampton! I really can't understand how you can defend the local authorities and Council. How long have they had (and how much money coming in from selling off land during the boom period of the property market) to make Ocean Village and the Waterfront a spectacle to put Southampton on the map? As Smirking Saint so rightly states (and there are so many examples), just look at the Cruise terminals. People coming in from cruises and faced with old, derelict dock buildings and dilapidated warehouses. Being fair, this is probably ABP land and their responsibility but it is typical of many of the city's sights. Mayflower Park has plans - the Spitfire memorial- and MDL marinas have proposals so it will be interesting to see how well thought out the plans actually are. MDL marinas are now responsible for the Ocean Village territory so not all hope is lost. I don't think it's harsh to criticise the council and planners for holding Southampton back. As Duncan sensibly suggested, the Politicians don't escape the spotlight either. When you consider some of the key assets from which Southampton can benefit (as I have mentioned), it's scandalous how we've wasted such potential (not over-charging the residents for city centre parking for which they've now made a complete U-turn by slashing prices!) The council seem to have a fire fighting philosophy - implement an initial plan, realise it's stupid and doesn't work, then drill the press officer to make some inane newspaper headlines and implement plan b (as though plan b was the intention all along). Need an example of this: A few spring to mind. 1.) The parking debacle - up parking prices and extend chargeable hours, then realise motorist numbers visiting the city centre have dropped and parking costs may have contributed to the fall, blame it on the recession, implement parking price cuts and make out the Council have their finger on the pulse. 2.) Southampton need something to rival the Spinnaker Tower - Ridiculous plans to fire lasers across the city from the Civic Centre Clock. Widespread condemnation across the local press and public outcry. Plans shelved. New suggestions to create a Spitfire Memorial (much better idea imho.) 3.) Traffic congestion - Renown city for having congested roads and way too many traffic lights, bunging up the traffic flow (despite Romanse assistance from which should benefit). We must be bad or stupid motorists as we now need traffic lights on roundabouts which imho undoes the need for roundabouts in the first place. Gavin **** on the radio talking about easing congestion and removing traffic lights were necessary due to terrible congestion, even at quieter times, due to the lack of fluid road systems. (Foot note: Don't see much of this improvement but I have seen new traffic lights installed on Millbrook Roundabout which has made queues longer) Overall, I realise it's arrogant to imagine there's an easy answer to resolve any city centre's problems. However, I do think it's pertinent to highlight the sheer lack of foresight and initiative in both planning departments and council and authorities working with developers in many zones across the city. Actions speak louder than words. I won't argue a case. It's easier to give examples. As already stated - compare the more recent success (it pains me to admit) of Gunwharf Quay and compare it to Ocean Village or Town Quay. Only recently have plans been kicked into action to redevelop parts of Ocean Village and I can't help but think (maybe my cynical side) that's reactive to the egg on the face comparisons with Gunwharf and the distinct void (there's little to do!) in Southampton around the Cruise Liner terminals, Mayflower Park, Town Quay and Ocean Village (i.e. The Waterfront). You mention about me "claiming" to be involved to a certain degree with the developments - I merely work in the industry and I am aware of certain projects close to home and those on which I have worked. I'm not on an ego trip, trying to sound important if that's what you were intimating. I'm merely venting my frustration and giving my (all be it) strong opinions on matters locally. Nothing more, nothing less. I just feel passionate about it. The comment I made about Saints fans parking around Ocean Village was a bit pointless but I was trying to bring back some relevance to the football fans and the club as I'm sure many won't care about the local infrastructure. They just want to read about football. However, they can easily skip the thread. Totaly agree - I went to South St Seaport in NY last November and the potential Southampton has to do exactly what they have built there is criminal to ignore. As for Ocean Village I know for a fact that a lot of shops and businesses were driven out by the colossal rent that they were subjected to - there were severe financial penalties for shops not being open when they were committed to be. The football club has a lot to be thankful to the council for but its residents do not in the way the city planners have neglected and destroyed this once fine city. Whilst I had heard about the rent issues, I wasn't aware of the severe financial penalties for shops being closed in business hours. This certainly brings up some valid questions - was extortionate rent appropriated to facilitate removing businesses with a longer term view to selling off their land to the highest bidder? It would be foolish to not consider that. It begs similar questions to Ikea and how that got planning permission. However, this is purely theoretical and I digress. Overall, we have a great football club and exciting times ahead. I just really wish we had a bit more to do around the city and we really improved the city's appearance/facilities so our future generations enjoy the city to it's full potential! After all, we have massive potential as a city and it only takes a persuasive councillor or politician to make a difference with some foresight and logic (not some Post Grad with a brain wave for firing a light from a town clock!!). If some Swiss guys can arrive and make such a difference to our club's fortunes, imagine the feel good factor across town if we had people of a similar ilk making key decisions to Southampton's future prosperity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torbay Saint Posted 7 November, 2009 Share Posted 7 November, 2009 Like I said - you need to read around the subject and I pointed you in the direction of the correct reports. You are criticising people without a full appreciation of what is happening. There are plans for the areas you highlighted. Ocean Village is in private ownership (but not the company you referred to). A site can only be allocated if there is reasonable prospect of it being delivered. If it can't (as a private company has different or even no interests in developing the site) then the wider land use planning document will be found unsound at enquiry - no doubt you would heavily criticise the Council then??! You and others made reference to regeneration of other cities including Portsmouth. It is easy to see its legacy, but the waterfront development mentioned are still in their infancy. Lets see what they are like in 10 years or so. For someone who works in the development industry I am surprised that you have such a view on the planning process. As a planning consultant I can promise there are worse LPA's in the country! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Mockles Posted 11 November, 2009 Share Posted 11 November, 2009 Like I said - you need to read around the subject and I pointed you in the direction of the correct reports. You are criticising people without a full appreciation of what is happening. I think having lived in Southampton my entire life, realising the great potential of the city, followed by partaking in a career in the building/engineering sector and patiently waiting for something exciting to happen, I have every appreciation and many ideas on how a town could be sensibly developed. Sadly, the planning department that shape the future for the quarter of a million residents in Southampton have other ideas. You and others made reference to regeneration of other cities including Portsmouth. It is easy to see its legacy, but the waterfront development mentioned are still in their infancy. Lets see what they are like in 10 years or so. Yes, but stating that "Gunwharf is in its infancy" is hardly a great defence. All developments have to start somewhere. Judge by popularity. Despite the delays and the fundamentally flawed design of the lift on Spinnaker, Gunwharf has been a great success and has rejuvenated the area. The layout and design is sound, flats nearby but with a well thought out shopping zone (outlets) and separate food/drinking zones. A strategy Southampton planners seem to have struggled to comprehend. For someone who works in the development industry I am surprised that you have such a view on the planning process. As a planning consultant I can promise there are worse LPA's in the country! That explains your defence. However, I am sure many cities have poor planning departments. That factor doesn't mean that our standards are acceptable. Just driving around Southampton alone is enough to make even the most patient driver cry (re: the ridiculous mantra to stick traffic lights in just about every traffic hot spot possible). Praising the LPA is Certainly not a view shared by me and many of my peers. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 11 November, 2009 Share Posted 11 November, 2009 Love the comments from the players. OK so Deepdale is half full (as has a 23,400 capacity). If these prima donas know that there is a crisis, why don't they volunteer a wage cut in order to subsidise the ticket prices? Their wage bill for this financial year for players and football staff (not admin) will be in excess of £11m for players and staff. Take £1m away and this would mean that every ticket could be subsidised by £2. Cut the wages a bit more, then the tickets get even cheaper. Players know this. They know that it is not good playing in half empty stadia. They know that they could subsidise ticket prices, via a wage cut. While in most cases no one is going to volunteer a wage cut, football is different as these guys are excessively well paid at the expense of the customer. If the customer isn't coming........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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