Why a whipping boy?

[dune]

I think Waigo is doing his best to take this mantle from Wotton.

 

Agree with this. He gets fantastic supply and most of the time ****s it up. By far the weakest link in our team.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

it's pack mentality. The pack will always turn on the weakness, be it in the playground or on the pitch. Survival of the fittest and all that...

 

The latest in a long line of insults towards those who happen to think Paul Wotton is not a very good footballer . I note with interest Wotton's defenders are (in the main) resorting to abuse rather than putting any kind of cogent argument forward .

 

If there's anyone on here with a decent case as to why PW is such a good footballer I'd love to here it - something a bit more substantial than 'the manager keeps picking him' would be nice .

[dubai_phil]

The latest in a long line of insults towards those who happen to think Paul Wotton is not a very good footballer . I note with interest Wotton's defenders are (in the main) resorting to abuse rather than putting any kind of cogent argument forward .

 

If there's anyone on here with a decent case as to why PW is such a good footballer I'd love to here it - something a bit more substantial than 'the manager keeps picking him' would be nice .

 

I happen to think that Paul Wotton is not a very good footballer. IMHO he was brought in as PR in our crazy experiment on a long but not THAT cheap contract

 

However, he is OUR footballer and he is currently performing a role in the team which has led to us being unbeaten in 5 league games.

 

I think when Murty comes back it is likely we could see James moved into the role as none of our other midfielders are up to it, and Gillett somehow managed to get himself out of the picture.

 

Now that we have found 2 working formations, I expect we will see a DM targetted in January, and Wotton will revert to his role of cover. After all, we are a L1 team and having 2 world class DM's to cover each other may just be a tad ambitious.

 

So, while there is no other option in the squad, in the formation that our manager has chosen to play, anyone getting at him during a match or elsewhere is having a go at my team or our manager.

[aintforever]

I note with interest Wotton's defenders are (in the main) resorting to abuse rather than putting any kind of cogent argument forward .

 

If there's anyone on here with a decent case as to why PW is such a good footballer I'd love to here it - something a bit more substantial than 'the manager keeps picking him' would be nice .

 

To be fair, every game we have won this season has featured Wotton. And since his return to the starting line-up against Gillingham we have won 5 and drawn 1 so he must be doing something right.

[Gordon Mockles]

Hughie is the classic example of a player doing a job for the team which, because it isn't flashy, was derided by the ignorant. Never once could you say he hid, he ALWAYS made himself available to the player in trouble with the ball, the classic "be available, receive, pass, move, and be available again". He wasn't especially a ball-winner in the Brian O'Neil mould, as Hughie always wanted to stay on his feet. But when you play like that you are inevitably in possession an awful lot - and as a result you risk the crowd's ire for any misplaced pass, even if your % completion is good. In that respect he was very much like Alan Ball.

 

Good managers really don't need the advice of those fans who are incapable of watching anything other than the man with the ball, while players (like Fisher and Ball) don't play any better with morons getting on their backs at the drop of a hat.

 

Well said. The middle of the park is often congested & a sea of bodies & decent, ball playing midfielders often go un-noticed yet they are the lynch pin of the team. Ball was a dynamo in midfield, as was Marsden, Case, etc. Players like Carlton Palmer & Viafara broke up the play & often bulldozed the opposition but, like Wotton, their distribution was sometimes questionable. Players who I personally thought did a good job marshalling the midfield (Safri springs to mind as 1 particularly good example) often got chastised (Safri for passing backwards?! WTF?!)

 

It bemused me how narrow minded, fickle & short sighted fans can be. It seems some fans would rather players lose possession than pass sideways or backwards if no clear passing options were available. Funny, people don't moan at United or Arsenal for that yet Safri got slated by some on here.

 

I particularly liked the comment "Good managers really don't need the advice of those fans who are incapable of watching anything other than the man with the ball..."...don't really need to expand on that. Watching Lambert & Connolly for a match helps you realise.

[jam]

Well said. The middle of the park is often congested & a sea of bodies & decent, ball playing midfielders often go un-noticed yet they are the lynch pin of the team. Ball was a dynamo in midfield, as was Marsden, Case, etc. Players like Carlton Palmer & Viafara broke up the play & often bulldozed the opposition but, like Wotton, their distribution was sometimes questionable. Players who I personally thought did a good job marshalling the midfield (Safri springs to mind as 1 particularly good example) often got chastised (Safri for passing backwards?! WTF?!)

 

It bemused me how narrow minded, fickle & short sighted fans can be. It seems some fans would rather players lose possession than pass sideways or backwards if no clear passing options were available. Funny, people don't moan at United or Arsenal for that yet Safri got slated by some on here.

 

I particularly liked the comment "Good managers really don't need the advice of those fans who are incapable of watching anything other than the man with the ball..."...don't really need to expand on that. Watching Lambert & Connolly for a match helps you realise.

 

I thought Marsden was a really good player for us. I rated Oakley, Delap, Idiakez, Magilton and Safri; they all did a good job for us (when fit). Wotton is an honest but poor footballer and breaks up as much of our moves as he does our opponents. He demands the ball from less experienced players then wastes it.

 

Please don't reel out the patronising 'I don't like him because he plays the ball backwards' line.

Edited 3 November, 2009 by jam
grammenarr

[Gordon Mockles]

Exactly. However, many on this forum took the p*ss out of Safri for his passing yet when he was away from the squad for the African Nations, our squad was noticeably poorer with his absence.

 

Again, Idiakez was constantly berated but when he was fit, he was a quality passer of the ball & determined & professional. Players get injured & it does frustrates fans but that's life. Look at Le Tiss for that. Managers wanted him fitter due to his unquestionable quality on the ball yet when they pushed him, he got injured. Oakley another good passer & an excellent, Lampard like accurate shot from range. Often in training, often in matches, hard, accurate shooting. We could have done with some of that at Leyton...accurate finishing!

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

To be fair, every game we have won this season has featured Wotton. And since his return to the starting line-up against Gillingham we have won 5 and drawn 1 so he must be doing something right.

 

Top marks for not calling people who disagree with you an 'idiot' or 'moron' or digressing into irrelevant comparisons with past players as many have before you - a welcome development on this thread .

 

Your argument is fair enough as far as it goes but the uncharitable might say we've won in spite of him rather than because of Paul Wotton . I've seen this player perform as much as most have on here - I've watched him carefully - and I just can't see what PW offers our midfield other than a decent attitude and some experience . I'm still waiting for someone to make a specific case as to why they think he's such a good footballer .

 

I'm beginning to suspect this collective failure to argue the case properly is because there really isn't much of a case to argue .

[John B]

Top marks for not calling people who disagree with you an 'idiot' or 'moron' or digressing into irrelevant comparisons with past players as many have before you - a welcome development on this thread .

 

Your argument is fair enough as far as it goes but the uncharitable might say we've won in spite of him rather than because of Paul Wotton . I've seen this player perform as much as most have on here - I've watched him carefully - and I just can't see what PW offers our midfield other than a decent attitude and some experience . I'm still waiting for someone to make a specific case as to why they think he's such a good footballer .

 

I'm beginning to suspect this collective failure to argue the case properly is because there really isn't much of a case to argue .

 

 

Wotton does a job for us is not a talented footballer played 394 times for Plymouth and scored 54 goals which seems a reasonable record to me

[CB Saint]

The latest in a long line of insults towards those who happen to think Paul Wotton is not a very good footballer . I note with interest Wotton's defenders are (in the main) resorting to abuse rather than putting any kind of cogent argument forward .

 

If there's anyone on here with a decent case as to why PW is such a good footballer I'd love to here it - something a bit more substantial than 'the manager keeps picking him' would be nice .

 

It was not meant to insult anyone - just a statement of fact. The original poster asked why there was always a whipping boy in every side. The point I was making is that singling out scapegoats is human nature (like it or not) and it doesn't matter in what arena you are in, there will always be one.

 

With regards to Wotton, I am undecided. AP obviously rates him and Saints have played good football with him in the side. Time will tell.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

It was not meant to insult anyone - just a statement of fact. The original poster asked why there was always a whipping boy in every side. The point I was making is that singling out scapegoats is human nature (like it or not) and it doesn't matter in what arena you are in, there will always be one.

 

With regards to Wotton, I am undecided. AP obviously rates him and Saints have played good football with him in the side. Time will tell.

 

Inferring that the Wotton skeptics 'hunt in packs' (like wild dogs) reads as a pretty clear insult to me I must say .

[CB Saint]

Inferring that the Wotton skeptics 'hunt in packs' (like wild dogs) reads as a pretty clear insult to me I must say .

 

In that case, my apologies for inferring that you are a dog, and a wild one at that. I will leave my reflections on human nature for another arena.

[david in sweden]

Jimmy Melia, the first of the midfield schemers.Underated by yer average bloke on the terraces.

 

With hindsight, Melia was not the bad player lots of people suggest.

He did lack pace, but had good vision for the game but much of his passing was on the mark,but people tend to remember the passes that went astray.

He tended to be a better player in away games (where home fans didn't jeer him so much and remembered his glory days at Liverpool ).

I saw the away game at Highbury (Easter 1968) where we unexpectedly won 3-0 (with Ron Davies injured) pint-sized Micky Judd scored on his debut and Joe Kirkup scored with a centre from the side-line, plus a Paine penalty.

Melia absolutely ran the midfield and was a class above everyone else on the pitch. Sadly he rarely got credit from fans in home games, and it eventually got to him. Sad that having invested money in a player and seeing him picked every week, fans don't do more to encourage players who are going through a tough patch, but ridicule them instead.

 

Unfortunately, players who are prematurely bald (Melia was at 25) and later David Armstrong (a much better player than JM) tended to look like someone's grandfather - and in consequence got rude comments all the time.

Likewise Chris Marsden (who may have shaved his head) didn't look like a film star either, and only some of his super performances saved his reputation.

[John B]

With hindsight, Melia was not the bad player lots of people suggest.

He did lack pace, but had good vision for the game but much of his passing was on the mark,but people tend to remember the passes that went astray.

He tended to be a better player in away games (where home fans didn't jeer him so much and remembered his glory days at Liverpool ).

I saw the away game at Highbury (Easter 1968) where we unexpectedly won 3-0 (with Ron Davies injured) pint-sized Micky Judd scored on his debut and Joe Kirkup scored with a centre from the side-line, plus a Paine penalty.

Melia absolutely ran the midfield and was a class above everyone else on the pitch. Sadly he rarely got credit from fans in home games, and it eventually got to him. Sad that having invested money in a player and seeing him picked every week, fans don't do more to encourage players who are going through a tough patch, but ridicule them instead.

 

Unfortunately, players who are prematurely bald (Melia was at 25) and later David Armstrong (a much better player than JM) tended to look like someone's grandfather - and in consequence got rude comments all the time.

Likewise Chris Marsden (who may have shaved his head) didn't look like a film star either, and only some of his super performances saved his reputation.

 

I thought Melia was excellent helped us get to Div 1

 

He was a little slow and bald which did not help

[Goodfellas Jay]

There was one player that I remember who was hounded out of the club by the supporters. Personally I think he suffered more abuse than the likes of J Wright, Delap, Wotton etc..

 

Step forward Graham Potter....

 

and then there was....

 

Lee Todd...

 

UTS

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Wotton does a job for us is not a talented footballer played 394 times for Plymouth and scored 54 goals which seems a reasonable record to me

 

John if "does a job" is the best we can say of him (that's called damning with faint praise) than that's not exactly a glowing testimonial is it ? . If that is truly his level now (I'd say it is) then the accusation that he is being unfairly singled out for criticism does not seem to hold much water .

 

There are any number of lower league players who could do a 'Wottonesque' midfield job for you , perhaps we should aim for better than that if we want to field the quality team this club ambitions require .

 

If I remember correctly his contract expires next summer , does anybody on here really think it should be renewed ?

[Fan The Flames]

There was one player that I remember who was hounded out of the club by the supporters. Personally I think he suffered more abuse than the likes of J Wright, Delap, Wotton etc..

 

Step forward Graham Potter....

 

and then there was....

 

Lee Todd...

 

UTS

 

Lee Todd was out of his depth, run ragged away to Arsenal. To be fair I don't remember people getting on his back, he didn't play enough.

[aintforever]

Top marks for not calling people who disagree with you an 'idiot' or 'moron' or digressing into irrelevant comparisons with past players as many have before you - a welcome development on this thread .

 

Your argument is fair enough as far as it goes but the uncharitable might say we've won in spite of him rather than because of Paul Wotton . I've seen this player perform as much as most have on here - I've watched him carefully - and I just can't see what PW offers our midfield other than a decent attitude and some experience . I'm still waiting for someone to make a specific case as to why they think he's such a good footballer .

 

I'm beginning to suspect this collective failure to argue the case properly is because there really isn't much of a case to argue .

 

there's no case to argue but fact is we've played better since Wotton has started, he might not have Lallana's skills or Scheiderlin's passing ability but he is better defensively, he has better positional sense and as you say a better attitude and more experience.

 

it's all about having a good team, that doesn't mean dumping the most skillfull Xi on the pitch but putting the right blend of youth/experience, skill and attitude. As Big Mac said, violinists and road sweepers.

[Gordon Mockles]

It's nice to actually read some cogent debate as opposed to juvenile name calling and screaming from soap boxes (whilst drop kicking dummies and missing the target! Sound familiar? LOL)

[Charlie Wayman]

For years we have missed a midfielder who puts the boot in when needed.

We have had too many limp wristed midfielders in the past.We ... need someone who is not a pretty boy footballer but someone who can kick people ...

 

 

To say the least this is a very peculiar point of view as midfelders always operate in or around the 18 yard box; "putting the boot in" invariably leads to direct free kicks in front of goal and at just the right distance to get it up and over the wall and down again into the net. This is just what we don't need as we saw against KKD the other day.

 

This has been one of PAUL'S biggest problems and why he is regarded as a clunky tosser.

 

I cannot recommend you to the coaching staff either...

[RonManager]

With hindsight, Melia was not the bad player lots of people suggest.

He did lack pace, but had good vision for the game but much of his passing was on the mark,but people tend to remember the passes that went astray.

He tended to be a better player in away games (where home fans didn't jeer him so much and remembered his glory days at Liverpool ).

I saw the away game at Highbury (Easter 1968) where we unexpectedly won 3-0 (with Ron Davies injured) pint-sized Micky Judd scored on his debut and Joe Kirkup scored with a centre from the side-line, plus a Paine penalty.

Melia absolutely ran the midfield and was a class above everyone else on the pitch. Sadly he rarely got credit from fans in home games, and it eventually got to him. Sad that having invested money in a player and seeing him picked every week, fans don't do more to encourage players who are going through a tough patch, but ridicule them instead.

 

Unfortunately, players who are prematurely bald (Melia was at 25) and later David Armstrong (a much better player than JM) tended to look like someone's grandfather - and in consequence got rude comments all the time.

Likewise Chris Marsden (who may have shaved his head) didn't look like a film star either, and only some of his super performances saved his reputation.

 

Email to me from Southampton World website -

 

Hi,

 

I am delighted to tell you that our most recent new member is none less than Saints sixties star Jimmy Melia.

 

He has said he will look on the site every day this week and is happy to answer questions from our members. Please do not miss this fantastic opportunity!!

 

http://www.ohwhenthesaints.net/the-good-or-bad-old-days-f1/it-s-jimmy-melia-week-1st-to-7th-november-t1521.htm

 

Mike

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Top marks for not calling people who disagree with you an 'idiot' or 'moron' or digressing into irrelevant comparisons with past players as many have before you - a welcome development on this thread .

 

Irrelevant comparisons with past players?

 

There's me thinking the thread asked the question "Who has been a whipping boy and deserved it, and who was better than the fans thought?"

 

Note the past tense. Learn to read matey.

[John B]

John if "does a job" is the best we can say of him (that's called damning with faint praise) than that's not exactly a glowing testimonial is it ? . If that is truly his level now (I'd say it is) then the accusation that he is being unfairly singled out for criticism does not seem to hold much water .

 

There are any number of lower league players who could do a 'Wottonesque' midfield job for you , perhaps we should aim for better than that if we want to field the quality team this club ambitions require .

 

If I remember correctly his contract expires next summer , does anybody on here really think it should be renewed ?

 

Not saying his contract should be renewed but he has had a decent career in football in the lower divisions where we are at the moment.

Edited 3 November, 2009 by John B

[WestSaint]

Jimmy Melia, the first of the midfield schemers.Underated by yer average bloke on the terraces.

 

 

Absolutely but I think there was a quiet undercurrent of affection for him.

He did get a lot of stick - but I remember a goal he scored once - It was a header believe it or not and although I cannot remember the game he was over the moon with it and received a great cheer from the Crowd.

 

I liked him - he always gave 100% i felt but as a previous poster said he was bald!! and this contributed to a fair amount of stick he received. A real character though

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Absolutely but I think there was a quiet undercurrent of affection for him.

He did get a lot of stick - but I remember a goal he scored once - It was a header believe it or not and although I cannot remember the game he was over the moon with it and received a great cheer from the Crowd.

 

I liked him - he always gave 100% i felt but as a previous poster said he was bald!! and this contributed to a fair amount of stick he received. A real character though

 

Only time travellers can score a goal more than once.

 

Jimmy was possibly the most shot-shy player I've ever seen. I can recall a time when he was totally on his own just inside the penalty area with just the keeper to beat - and still passed it sideways away from goal.

It was such an obvious chicken-out that he was bound to get more stick from then on. He was well past his best when Ted Bates signed him for 30k, but he did bring some composure to midfield and contributed to getting us promoted to the top division for the first time.

 

He was a good example of why fans should save their criticism until after the game. Baracking your own players when they are on the pitch just makes them uncertain and hesitant. It just ain't supporting your team. Conversely baracking the opposition often makes them fight harder!

[CanadaSaint]

Jimmy was possibly the most shot-shy player I've ever seen.

 

I seem to remember being at Plymouth when he scored an absolutely vital goal from the edge of the box in the promotion run-in.

 

From what I remember, it bounced about ten times and trickled between the goalie's legs.

 

In that joyous moment most of us realized why he didn't shoot much.

[Aardvark]

I think Waigo is doing his best to take this mantle from Wotton.

 

Totally agree - headless chicken award goes to him. But I can remember Fuller and Jones fulfilling thatb description and look atthem now!

 

As for the rest of them the one that stands out for me is certainly Delap who was simply shocking at times and regularly hounded by the terraces (sounds painful):smt107

[Fan The Flames]

What let Delap down was his lack of fitness, he had no energy left in the last 15 mins. That has to be down to poor management.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

What let Delap down was his lack of fitness, he had no energy left in the last 15 mins. That has to be down to poor management.

 

That'll be fans favourite WGS will it?

Edited 3 November, 2009 by hughieslastminutegoal

[Lets B Avenue]

Absolutely but I think there was a quiet undercurrent of affection for him.

He did get a lot of stick - but I remember a goal he scored once - It was a header believe it or not and although I cannot remember the game he was over the moon with it and received a great cheer from the Crowd.

 

I liked him - he always gave 100% i felt but as a previous poster said he was bald!! and this contributed to a fair amount of stick he received. A real character though

 

I think you might be thinking about the Arsenal home game, Xmas 66. he scored at the Milton by beating the goalie, Jim Furnell, to the ball and it went in off his shoulder.

[Fan The Flames]

That'll be fans favourite WGS will it?

 

I suppose GS didn't get everything right. One example that sticks in my mind may have been under H&J, Arsenal at home and the ball rolled past his foot in the last ten minutes and he didn't have the legs to deal with it, it wasn't that he couldn't be bothered he just didn't have the energy left to lift his foot and move it 12 inches and deal with the football.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Irrelevant comparisons with past players?

 

There's me thinking the thread asked the question "Who has been a whipping boy and deserved it, and who was better than the fans thought?"

 

Note the past tense. Learn to read matey.

 

Oh I learned to read a long time ago , but thanks for the insult anyway . Along with learning to read I was also taught the value of good manners , what a pity your education never stretched that far .

 

If you must live in the past some of the departed players Paul Wotton has been compared to on here (such as Safri or Marsden for instance) were far superior footballers to Paul Wotton in every conceivable way I'd argue , indeed the comparison itself is yet another insult .

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

there's no case to argue but fact is we've played better since Wotton has started, he might not have Lallana's skills or Scheiderlin's passing ability but he is better defensively, he has better positional sense and as you say a better attitude and more experience.

 

it's all about having a good team, that doesn't mean dumping the most skillfull Xi on the pitch but putting the right blend of youth/experience, skill and attitude. As Big Mac said, violinists and road sweepers.

 

That's only true to a degree , for instance until recently is was common currency in international football that Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard (surely the two best English midfielders of their generation) could not play together effectivly in the same team - then Fabio Capello comes along and suddenly that seems to be no problem at all .

 

Good managers (within obvious limits) pick the best players available and adapt the system to make it work .

[aintforever]

That's only true to a degree , for instance until recently is was common currency in international football that Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard (surely the two best English midfielders of their generation) could not play together effectivly in the same team - then Fabio Capello comes along and suddenly that seems to be no problem at all .

 

Good managers (within obvious limits) pick the best players available and adapt the system to make it work .

 

What a load of rubbish, we won the World cup with our best striker (Jimmy Greaves) sat on the bench because he didn't fit into the system.

 

if you are using Fabio Capello as an example, why do you think he picks Heskey in his first eleven? Please don't tell me you think Heskey is our second best striker! He plays him because he compliments Rooney, he fits the system better than Crouch, Owen or Defoe who all **** over Heskey talent wise.

[up and away]

Exactly. However, many on this forum took the p*ss out of Safri for his passing yet when he was away from the squad for the African Nations, our squad was noticeably poorer with his absence.

 

Again, Idiakez was constantly berated but when he was fit, he was a quality passer of the ball & determined & professional. Players get injured & it does frustrates fans but that's life. Look at Le Tiss for that. Managers wanted him fitter due to his unquestionable quality on the ball yet when they pushed him, he got injured. Oakley another good passer & an excellent, Lampard like accurate shot from range. Often in training, often in matches, hard, accurate shooting. We could have done with some of that at Leyton...accurate finishing!

 

Idiakez is a perfect example. I remember travelling to the ground and hearing the team news that Idiakez would be playing in central midfield alongside Wright, Viafara, Skacel against Derby in a league match. That was near enough as close as I have come to turning the car around and going home. This was not a slight against Idiakez, but of a midfield that would be non existent against a strong Derby side.

 

Similar with Wooton, put him in in a 5 man midfield sat in front of the back four and he does a job for us under the protection of other players. Put him in that standard role in 442 and I really do not see the point. All players have good and bad points, but if you were to ask fans where the biggest improvement could come for the team with the smallest outlay, I can't see past Wooton.

 

Does this mean I boo Wooton, No. Does this mean I don't accept Pardew playing Wooton, No. There is no pack mentality here, just individuals with a common opinion upon what they see as the weakest link.

[John B]

What a load of rubbish, we won the World cup with our best striker (Jimmy Greaves) sat on the bench because he didn't fit into the system.

 

if you are using Fabio Capello as an example, why do you think he picks Heskey in his first eleven? Please don't tell me you think Heskey is our second best striker! He plays him because he compliments Rooney, he fits the system better than Crouch, Owen or Defoe who all **** over Heskey talent wise.

 

Jimmy Greaves had been injured in the tournament and Hunt took his place and played well so Alf did not want to change a winning team.

 

But Alf did use his best players letting Alan Ball into the team and leaving out any wingers.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

What a load of rubbish, we won the World cup with our best striker (Jimmy Greaves) sat on the bench because he didn't fit into the system.

 

if you are using Fabio Capello as an example, why do you think he picks Heskey in his first eleven? Please don't tell me you think Heskey is our second best striker! He plays him because he compliments Rooney, he fits the system better than Crouch, Owen or Defoe who all **** over Heskey talent wise.

 

That's a fair point but lets wait and see if Emil Heskey is still a first choice striker in the World Cup next summer - I doubt it somehow . I still stand by the broader point that as a rule of thumb you pick your best players for each position .

[aintforever]

Jimmy Greaves had been injured in the tournament and Hunt took his place and played well so Alf did not want to change a winning team.

 

But Alf did use his best players letting Alan Ball into the team and leaving out any wingers.

 

So you think Heskey is the second best striker in England then too?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

So you think Heskey is the second best striker in England then too?

 

Calm down a bit .

 

You seem to be putting arguments into peoples mouths they haven't actualy made . What next ? will you be telling me what political party I choose to vote for or which make of car I favour . :confused:

[John B]

So you think Heskey is the second best striker in England then too?

 

He is probably the best player to play up front in the formation employed by Capello he is strong in the air puts himself about is quick and tracks back.

 

 

But he is of course not the best out and out striker

[st alex]

I have no idea how Francis Benali became such a cult hero despite some absolutely hideous clangers.

 

 

He had a moustache.

[CanadaSaint]

He had a moustache.

 

That's where I've been going wrong.

 

I'll stop shaving right away.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Oh I learned to read a long time ago , but thanks for the insult anyway . Along with learning to read I was also taught the value of good manners , what a pity your education never stretched that far .

 

If you must live in the past some of the departed players Paul Wotton has been compared to on here (such as Safri or Marsden for instance) were far superior footballers to Paul Wotton in every conceivable way I'd argue , indeed the comparison itself is yet another insult .

 

I was answering the thread's question the way it was asked, which was very specifically about past players. My mistake for not changing it into something it wasn't.

 

You chose to attack people who were responding as invited, with the comment that they were "digressing into irrelevant comparisons with past players", patently absurd (and maybe even a tiny bit insulting?) in the context of the thread.

 

I apologise for suggesting you couldn't read, so I'll phrase it more accurately:

 

"Please re-read the thread initiator's question as I think you have completely misunderstood what it was about - which was about past players as well as Paul Wotton, more so really, - no insult intended."

 

Nowhere did I even attempt to make a comparison between Wotton and any past player, other than by accepting the initiator's opinion that PW might be the crowd's whipping boy, as some past players have been.

 

Now a person who did get the thread's question might have understood I was saying (as invited to do by the thread) that one particular past player (whom I actually respected a lot) was the undeserved whipping boy of some "fans", and that the crowd in my opinion was wrong. Other posters have supported different players picked on by sections of the crowd.

 

You seem to be implying that it is ok to pick on Wotton and that it is ok to make a player a whipping boy if you think he isn't very good. Nowadays you have an internet forum on which to criticise a player, which is fine. My view is that it doesn't help, and it is unnecessary, to vent your spleen against one of your own players during the match itself, especially when you just might be wrong.

[Aardvark]

Much as I like the guy, I have no idea how Francis Benali became such a cult hero despite some absolutely hideous clangers.

 

Perhaps the misunderstanding came about by "cult" being a misspelling??:confused:

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I was answering the thread's question the way it was asked, which was very specifically about past players. My mistake for not changing it into something it wasn't.

 

You chose to attack people who were responding as invited, with the comment that they were "digressing into irrelevant comparisons with past players", patently absurd (and maybe even a tiny bit insulting?) in the context of the thread.

 

I apologise for suggesting you couldn't read, so I'll phrase it more accurately:

 

"Please re-read the thread initiator's question as I think you have completely misunderstood what it was about - which was about past players as well as Paul Wotton, more so really, - no insult intended."

 

Nowhere did I even attempt to make a comparison between Wotton and any past player, other than by accepting the initiator's opinion that PW might be the crowd's whipping boy, as some past players have been.

 

Now a person who did get the thread's question might have understood I was saying (as invited to do by the thread) that one particular past player (whom I actually respected a lot) was the undeserved whipping boy of some "fans", and that the crowd in my opinion was wrong. Other posters have supported different players picked on by sections of the crowd.

 

You seem to be implying that it is ok to pick on Wotton and that it is ok to make a player a whipping boy if you think he isn't very good. Nowadays you have an internet forum on which to criticise a player, which is fine. My view is that it doesn't help, and it is unnecessary, to vent your spleen against one of your own players during the match itself, especially when you just might be wrong.

 

You must have noticed that it's common practice (and quite accepted) for a thread on this site to evolve from it's author's original intention into something slightly different as people concentrate on the aspects that interest them . To be fair the Professor did specifically mention Paul Wotton in the OP and suggested he was being criticised unfairly - that element is what interests me in this particular debate . Reminiscing on players I've all but forgotten about (while harmless) furthers the debate on Wotton's abilities very little but does fall within the (strictly interpreted) remit of the OP I will concede .

 

If fans want to discuss players who retired years or decades ago then they're free to do so of course but personally I must say I find that not a particularly interesting topic as I'm in the clear majority on here that are more concerned with contemporary team/club affairs .

 

As for 'picking on' or 'venting my spleen' on Paul Wotton that is an accusation I reject entirely - I have nothing personal against the man I just don't happen to think he's a very good footballer in all honesty . That's just a fans opinion based on observation of the player in question and a desire to see the team prosper rather than some hate filled crusade against him .

[team-saint]

People go on about the difference that Antonio made against MK Dons but really I think taking off Wotton made the biggest difference. When on the pitch his hoofing meant that Hammond and Morgan barely touched the ball and it is no coincidence that as soon as he came off they both became much more influential. He has helped bring some stability and strength to the team as it develops over the last few games but now I think we are strong enough in midfield to manage a proper 4-4-2 with Connolly up front.

[CanadaSaint]

Reminiscing on players I've all but forgotten about (while harmless) furthers the debate on Wotton's abilities very little but does fall within the (strictly interpreted) remit of the OP I will concede.

 

Sorry to say it CEC, because I'd normally refrain from comments like this, but your post comes across as a rather pompous put-down of people sharing their memories.

 

Those reminiscences don't just "fall within the (strictly interpreted) remit of the OP". In my view they WERE the focus of the OP. Why else would he ask "Who has been a whipping boy and deserved it, and who was better than the fans thought?"?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Sorry to say it CEC, because I'd normally refrain from comments like this, but your post comes across as a rather pompous put-down of people sharing their memories.

 

Those reminiscences don't just "fall within the (strictly interpreted) remit of the OP". In my view they WERE the focus of the OP. Why else would he ask "Who has been a whipping boy and deserved it, and who was better than the fans thought?"?

 

We're talking about different things , I'm talking about Paul Wotton not old players . Threads do develop a life of their own on here you know - like children you just can't control them !

 

Reminiscing is really not my thing but I've no objection to others indulging if they so choose , I will say however that living in the past is probably among old age's worst habits but 'each to his own' I suspose . Before you ask I am old enough to remember 1970's football and with the excepton of a very good Cup Final in 1976 it's overrated .

[saint1977]

Perhaps I'm missing something at games but I don't think we really have an unpopular player with the fans this season. I mean Waigo being offside gets frustrating but he is still backed by the fans although Antonio has put him in the shade slightly and Wotton has found a better role in the side and has been tidy of late. Lloyd James frustrated me earlier in the season but is improving at last. Harding, Hammond and Lambert have settled wonderfully, Jaidi has improved us no end and we'd sign Trotman like a shot if Irvine would sell. Kelvin is the best keeper in L1 and Connolly is a firm favourite already.

 

In fact Saganowski would probably be the whipping boy but he's not close to first team contention at present it seems.

[sotonian]

been watching saints since 67, saints always have had a whipping boy, i do wonder about some saints fans, just think they like moaning

the first one i was aware of was melia, then there was a certain mick channon, when he first got in the side a lot of saints fans hated him, when they realised he was good, they then picked on terry paine, he left then it was hugh fisher, he lost his place so the next one was jim McCalliog, this has carried on through the years,

 

before the mk dons game, a group of fans in the farmhouse were saying "Schneiderlin is crap" maybe they were lining up a replacement for wotton in the whipping boy stakes, as i said i do wonder about some of our fans