EEC referendums

[unionhotel]

An interesting point was raised in another thread about De Gaulle's initial refusal to allow Britain to join the EEC.

 

Given the years that we have now been in it, if there was a referendum to continue our membership or get out, how would you vote?

 

I'd like to answer myself but being an Isle of Man resident and outside the EEC it doesn't really affect me.

Edited 30 October, 2009 by unionhotel
Spelling

[bridge too far]

IF there was a referendum, I'd vote to stay in.

 

More than one referendum = referenda

[unionhotel]

IF there was a referendum, I'd vote to stay in.

 

More than one referendum = referendae

 

Yeah, you're right. Thanks for that

[Badger]

An interesting point was raised in another thread about De Gaulle's initial refusal to allow Britain to join the EEC.

 

 

I was the one to mention this.An interesting and important distinction is that in the 1960's and in our referendum in 1975 (?) it was to join/remain in the EEC and not the EU that we now talk of.

 

Several people I have spoken to on this subject admit to voting to remain within the European Economic Community,which was largely sold as a trading community at the time, rather than a federal European Union which has evolved.

 

My own vote would be to stay outside a federal Europe and if necessary withdraw from the EU.

[swannymere]

Stay in, it's a pain in the arse not having the € as our currency as well. And for all those who gripe on about losing our national identity, if the only thing that makes us British is our currency then our sense of identity wasn't that strong in the first place was it?

Edited 30 October, 2009 by swannymere

[greg_hill]

OUT

[Saint in Paradise]

If the UK left how would that affect the Immigration / work permit situation with regards to the EU ??

 

Surely it would make it very difficult to obtain "foreign" players even on loan ?

[unionhotel]

I was the one to mention this.An interesting and important distinction is that in the 1960's and in our referendum in 1975 (?) it was to join/remain in the EEC and not the EU that we now talk of.

 

Several people I have spoken to on this subject admit to voting to remain within the European Economic Community,which was largely sold as a trading community at the time, rather than a federal European Union which has evolved.

 

My own vote would be to stay outside a federal Europe and if necessary withdraw from the EU.

 

Thanks Badger. It was your post that prompted the question. I do remember that it was initially a trading bloc and can quite clearly voting against it as we appeared, at the time, that we were abandoning our Commonwealth which, I thought, was a real bad move. I've never believed that we historically have been a part of Europe other than geographically attached to it and the Federalist doctrine that has been tacitly agreed to by all member states doesn't exactly inspire confidence for our future.

 

The Isle of Man, for example, as an off-shore economy has thrived despite not being in the EEC and hasn't suffered as a result of non-participation, being able to make independent decisions as and when it needs to based on our own political needs and strategies. Self-indulgent perhaps, but never selfish because our own needs are put first.

[trousers]

 

More than one referendum = referenda

 

Incorrect (ref. Oxford English Dictionary) ;-)

[bridge too far]

Stay in, it's a pain in the arse not having the € as our currency as well. And for all those who gripe on about losing our national identity, if the only thing that makes us British is our currency then our sense of identity wasn't that strong in the first place was it?

 

I never have understood this. I don't see that the French, Germans, Italians etc. have lost their national identities.

[trousers]

Try folding up and rubbing a Euro note on a blank piece of paper. Then try doing the same with a sterling note.

[St Landrew]

IN.

[bridge too far]

Try folding up and rubbing a Euro note on a blank piece of paper. Then try doing the same with a sterling note.

 

Gosh! Blimey! I've changed my mind then :shock:

[trousers]

Gosh! Blimey! I've changed my mind then :shock:

 

The Eurozone countries had to reach agreement on what materials to use to produce the notes so that they were printed consistently across the EU. Hence they ended up with the only cotton based notes in the world printed with non-water proof delible ink! That's what happens when you rely on an oversized group of disparate nations to reach an agreement on something important. You end up with a massive compromse.

 

Best leave them to it I say. Rule Brittania.

[St Landrew]

The Eurozone countries had to reach agreement on what materials to use to produce the notes so that they were printed consistently across the EU. Hence they ended up with the only cotton based notes in the world printed with non-water proof delible ink! That's what happens when you rely on an oversized group of disparate nations to reach an agreement on something important. You end up with a massive compromse.

 

Best leave them to it I say. Rule Brittania.

 

Electronic money it is then..!

[bridge too far]

Electronic money it is then..!

 

Far too radical

[Thedelldays]

Rule Brittania.....

 

 

OUT

[hamster]

Electronic money it is then..!

 

The Euro Electron Card?

 

Aren't all bank accounts in effect multi-currency nowadays anyway? If I go to any cash machine in the World I think my balance can be shown in local currency. What with Globalisation too, we are basically just kidding ourselves that the we are seperate from others (in particualr Europe).

 

Billions is made from us somewhere along the line for the 'priviledge' of thinking we are special but imho we most definitely are noe, we're a cash-cow, and as we are bottom of the financial food-chain, we pay.

 

As for the EU, I quite like the idea.

[rpb]

Rule Brittania.....

 

 

OUT

 

Rule Europa...

 

IN

[Saintandy666]

The only way we can hope to compete with China and U.S, and perhaps even be bigger and better is by joining the whole of europe together. This will make us stronger as the Lisbon Treaty will do(though that is just one step). IN.

[manji]

The real reason most anti-European types like UKIP want us out of the EEC is so this country succumbs even further to American style extreme free market capitalism. Most EEC regulations prevent us going too far that way.

Unfortunately your average ill informed anti-EEC bloke on the street cant understand that.

[solentstars]

I never have understood this. I don't see that the French, Germans, Italians etc. have lost their national identities.

 

me to, but you get some crap written by the pro and anti nutters,i am not bothered either way and like the fact we can have a say bybeing a member,if we are out we just become a small country outside the europeon union with little say and will have to follow alot of their rules anyway to have access to their market.

if we keep the pound fine ,if we went into euro fine its no big deal.

[greg_hill]

Why do so many people buy into the myth that we'll be thrown into some kind of economic hell if we leave the EU? Are Switzerland and Norway going down the pan?

Did our EU membership help us in this recession? Did the EU have any kind of coherent strategy for dealing with it whatsoever? No, each PM ran home and took acre of their own.

 

The EU is totally corrupt and undemocratic. There is only one directly elected chamber and they have **no** legislative initiative. The EU accounts have been refused a sign off by auditors for seven years in a row. MEPs are known to SISO (sign in and sod off) to claim their daily expenses. Yes I know we've had similar problems at home but two wrongs don't make a right. They frequently vote for less and less transparency and the 'Lisbon Treaty' is simply a constitution under a new name. Hardly any MEPs have read it in full.

 

Why would we want to sign away laws and protections that we have built up over hundred s of years for laws and courts chosen by unelected bureaucrats? Why would we want MPs from Greece and soon Turkey to tell us what we can and can't eat in a Southampton restaurant? Would we feel it is right to tell them what the speed limit is in their country?It's a total sham and the only response federalists have is the "Little Englander" insult, which is no different to calling a Greenpeace voter a 'hippy' or a Labour voter a 'Communist'.

 

Someone asked what would happen to the rules on signing foreign players if we left. The answer is - anything the government wish. There where plenty of foreign players in the Saints side before the EU took its current form, you know. We could either make bilateral work permit agreements with other nations or simply allow players to enter the country on a merit basis as we now do with non EU nationals.

In short, the rules would be decide by the UK, not Brussels.

[solentstars]

Why do so many people buy into the myth that we'll be thrown into some kind of economic hell if we leave the EU? Are Switzerland and Norway going down the pan?

Did our EU membership help us in this recession? Did the EU have any kind of coherent strategy for dealing with it whatsoever? No, each PM ran home and took acre of their own.

 

The EU is totally corrupt and undemocratic. There is only one directly elected chamber and they have **no** legislative initiative. The EU accounts have been refused a sign off by auditors for seven years in a row. MEPs are known to SISO (sign in and sod off) to claim their daily expenses. Yes I know we've had similar problems at home but two wrongs don't make a right. They frequently vote for less and less transparency and the 'Lisbon Treaty' is simply a constitution under a new name. Hardly any MEPs have read it in full.

 

Why would we want to sign away laws and protections that we have built up over hundred s of years for laws and courts chosen by unelected bureaucrats? Why would we want MPs from Greece and soon Turkey to tell us what we can and can't eat in a Southampton restaurant? Would we feel it is right to tell them what the speed limit is in their country?It's a total sham and the only response federalists have is the "Little Englander" insult, which is no different to calling a Greenpeace voter a 'hippy' or a Labour voter a 'Communist'.

 

Someone asked what would happen to the rules on signing foreign players if we left. The answer is - anything the government wish. There where plenty of foreign players in the Saints side before the EU took its current form, you know. We could either make bilateral work permit agreements with other nations or simply allow players to enter the country on a merit basis as we now do with non EU nationals.

In short, the rules would be decide by the UK, not Brussels.

 

unlike our unelected second chamber the house of lords:D ,i rather be a member of a premiership club rather then be in the conference.

i agree we can be outside and in charge of our own country and currency.

we have 2 choices in or out, but it will have little effect on most of us apart from being a small country outside of abig tradeing block if we left.

[View From The Top]

In.

 

I've no issue with the € either, which is a complete volte face from my position when it was 1st introduced.

[mack rill]

Rule Brittania.....

 

 

OUT

 

Agree! never wanted it to start with.

[Verbal]

What is the EEC?

[Lord Duckhunter]

The original EEC referendum was typical of the European project and the way the European elite have moved towards a federal Europe by stealth. To enter the EEC and then vote whether to stay in or come out, skewed the vote.Once people were in it is less likely that they'll vote to come out, rather than vote to go in.The British people voted on whether to stay in a Trading block, not a European Union. Had they realized what Europe was going to become, I believe there would have been a no back then.

 

You only have to look at the European Constitution/Lisbon Treaty to show the methods used by the pro European elite that govern our lives. The French and Dutch voted against it, so they amended the Constitution( by about 5%) and called it a Treaty. The Irish voted against the amended "Treaty", but were told to vote again.

 

The British were promised a referendum by Blair, but denied one.It now looks like the same Blair could end up being the EU President, not by a vote of the people, but as a result of back room deals between leaders of the EU countries.

 

The Pro Europeans are against any sort of referendum because the British people will always vote against further integration. Therefore to get their dream of a Federal Europe they move inch by inch, by stealth and the British people will never get a say.

[Wilko]

In and take the Euro. However, wait until it's at a more favourable rate.

[Trader]

Why do so many people buy into the myth that we'll be thrown into some kind of economic hell if we leave the EU? Are Switzerland and Norway going down the pan?

Did our EU membership help us in this recession? Did the EU have any kind of coherent strategy for dealing with it whatsoever? No, each PM ran home and took acre of their own.

 

The EU is totally corrupt and undemocratic. There is only one directly elected chamber and they have **no** legislative initiative. The EU accounts have been refused a sign off by auditors for seven years in a row. MEPs are known to SISO (sign in and sod off) to claim their daily expenses. Yes I know we've had similar problems at home but two wrongs don't make a right. They frequently vote for less and less transparency and the 'Lisbon Treaty' is simply a constitution under a new name. Hardly any MEPs have read it in full.

 

Why would we want to sign away laws and protections that we have built up over hundred s of years for laws and courts chosen by unelected bureaucrats? Why would we want MPs from Greece and soon Turkey to tell us what we can and can't eat in a Southampton restaurant? Would we feel it is right to tell them what the speed limit is in their country?It's a total sham and the only response federalists have is the "Little Englander" insult, which is no different to calling a Greenpeace voter a 'hippy' or a Labour voter a 'Communist'.

 

Someone asked what would happen to the rules on signing foreign players if we left. The answer is - anything the government wish. There where plenty of foreign players in the Saints side before the EU took its current form, you know. We could either make bilateral work permit agreements with other nations or simply allow players to enter the country on a merit basis as we now do with non EU nationals.

In short, the rules would be decide by the UK, not Brussels.

 

Spot on - agree entirely.

 

We should go cap in hand to the Commonwealth, you know Australia , New Zealand, Canada etc., and beg for their forgiveness for abandoning them.

 

This is now a global economy, should we feel any empathy with France, Germany etc just because they're geographically close?

 

The internet's changed all that - its easy to trade with anyone, anywhere now - and the rest of the world don't care if we're a member of this dubious club or not.

 

All the eastern european countries are joining for the free handouts - which we are paying for.

 

I voted in 1975 (or whenever it was) to stay out.

And would do so again - if given the chance!

[John B]

I voted not to join the EEC but would now want to remain in the EU.

 

 

I used to work for a Paris based company and used to go there regularly I felt that most French people were more pragmatic than us saying they were French first but wanted a strong Europe to keep the US in check something I could not disagree with.

[greg_hill]

unlike our unelected second chamber the house of lords:D ,i rather be a member of a premiership club rather then be in the conference.

i agree we can be outside and in charge of our own country and currency.

we have 2 choices in or out, but it will have little effect on most of us apart from being a small country outside of abig tradeing block if we left.

 

Understood, but there are several important differences.

 

1) The House of Lords is weak. The elected chamber can approve any bill and force through any legislation. The HOL can only delay legislation and on taxation issues, it can't do anything. The EUP's un(directly)elected chamber is its strongest, and its elected chamber is weakest. They have no legislative initiative.

 

2) The Lords are an upper house with historical roots. They represent the old gentry of the nation they serve and have a clear role.

 

3) The Lords provide balance to our constitution. If both chambers were elected, we'd elect the same idiots to both houses and Labour would control the HOL. ID cards would be in place by now.

 

In short, our system including our unelected Lords has come about by evolution. It gives most power to the elected and just enough to the Lords to stop the lower house running riot. By contrast, the EU is purposely designed to give the most power and secrecy to the Council and gives the lower house as little power as possible but just enough to pretend it's democratic.

 

If someone had said to us: "Right, we'll hand over our sovereignty to Europe and a bunch of politicians from other countries you've never heard of. Sorry, you won't be able to vote for them and the people you vote for will have no real power and the whole system will never be explained. No sorry, you can't vote in or out for this" we would never have gone for it. The politicos know this, so they've done things bit by bit and under secrecy. All the while they feed us nonsense about economic disaster and ostracisation if we don't play along. I don't buy it.

[TopGun]

Rule Brittania.....

 

 

OUT

 

On the basis TDD is highly predictable and always very simplistic when it comes to politics, I vote to stay IN.