tpbury Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 (edited) I've started this topic in the past, as have many others. It's not about pedantry, it's not about trying to be superior, it's not about everyone using perfect grammar and spelling. I don't even care about short cuts,abbreviations and typos. Please, everyone, let's not get definatley in the dictionary - think finite, infinite. There is a house on the hill. Two children live there, their dog is called Charlie. They go to school with their mummy and their dog Charlie. They're happy children. Again, I'm happy to understand what you are saying, regardless of the way that you have said it. 15 years ago I worked at a teacher training college (nowadays 'University of Winchester'). I witnessed appalling grammar (though good self expression) in the application forms I processed. Question: Is it ok to use written communication on the assumption that your reader will understand what you mean? Or is it better to conform to a standard, requiring a level of commitment to understand that standard (ie grammar), such that you can be sure users of that standard understand what you mean? Boll ix Edited 26 October, 2009 by tpbury I don't care about typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 I like spelling and grammar to be correct, in my posts and in other people's. This is because I went to school and made the effort to learn the correct use of apostrophes and commas, how to spell and where to differentiate between their, there and they're. I now want to protect spelling and grammar qualities otherwise it devalues the efforts I made to get it right. So yes, it's selfish. Of course I can understand posts where the spelling and grammar are terrible but because I made, and make, the effort to get it right, I don't see why anyone else should be able to be lazy about it. *Note: Not proof read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 There should be a comma after 'grammar' and a full stop after 'right'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Who, me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al de Man Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 It's easier to read and make sense of a post when correct grammer and speeling are used. Don't deny you didn't hover over those two deliberate mistakes slightly longer than the rest of the sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Who, me? Yes, you. You have officially failed the pedantry test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Point them out for me, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Point them out for me, please. Please see post no.3. I'm shocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Please see post no.3. I'm shocked. No offence, but you're wrong. I can't see the need for a comma after any of the instances of the word, "Grammar", in my post, and there's definitely no need for a full stop after, "Right" (except the one that's there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 It's just courtesy really, particularly punctuation, which is there to help people take meaning from what would otherwise be a string of words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 There should be a comma after 'grammar' and a full stop after 'right'. I thought there should have been a full stop after "comma". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 26 October, 2009 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2009 There should be a comma after 'grammar' and a full stop after 'right'. Thank you for replying. I differntiate between pedantry and correctness however, and that's the whole point. By writing 'definately', 'stationary', ' confectionary', 'there' instead of 'their', we expose ourselves as ignorant. We may have got our message across, but I think it could have become garbled or lessened. So, let's not worry about commas and w@nky grammar, just let us express ourselves in a way that other people can understand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustMike Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 I've started this topic in the past, as have many others. It's not about pedantry, it's not about trying to be superior, it's not about everyone using perfect grammar and spelling. I don't even care about short cuts,abbreviations and typos. Please, everyone, let's not get definatley in the dictionary - think finite, infinite. There is a house on the hill. Two children live there, their dog is called Charlie. They go to school with their mummy and their dog Charlie. They're happy children. Again, I'm happy to understand what you are saying, regardless of the way that you have said it. 15 years ago I worked at a teacher training college (nowadays 'University of Winchester'). I witnessed appalling grammar (though good self expression) in the application forms I processed. Question: Is it ok to use written communication on the assumption that your reader will understand what you mean? Or is it better to conform to a standard, requiring a level of commitment to understand that standard (ie grammar), such that you can be sure users of that standard understand what you mean? Boll ix can't believe you wasted minutes of your life moaning about spelling and grammer on a football message board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dark Sotonic Mills Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Thank you for replying. I differntiate between pedantry and correctness however, and that's the whole point. By writing 'stationary', we expose ourselves as ignorant. Perhaps not your best choice of example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 26 October, 2009 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2009 While I'm at it, please can anyone who writes 'definately' or 'there' instead of 'their' please tell me why you do this and if you can change. I promise not to be an arrogant tw a t about it as I am a tree hugger at heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 26 October, 2009 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2009 can't believe you wasted minutes of your life moaning about spelling and grammer on a football message board! Don't regard it as wasted. I care about SFC, and about the people who who post here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draino76 Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 I like spelling and grammar to be correct, in my posts and in other people's. This is because I went to school and made the effort to learn the correct use of apostrophes and commas, how to spell and where to differentiate between their, there and they're. I now want to protect spelling and grammar qualities otherwise it devalues the efforts I made to get it right. So yes, it's selfish. Of course I can understand posts where the spelling and grammar are terrible but because I made, and make, the effort to get it right, I don't see why anyone else should be able to be lazy about it. *Note: Not proof read. Yeah whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 26 October, 2009 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Perhaps not your best choice of example. The typo? I'm ok with that, it's only a manual thing and I'm not presenting a thesis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Yeah whatever. It's called, "Thinking ahead". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 While I'm at it, please can anyone who writes 'definately' or 'there' instead of 'their' please tell me why you do this and if you can change. I promise not to be an arrogant tw a t about it as I am a tree hugger at heart. I do believe that the 'you's should be 'they's. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 No offence, but you're wrong. I can't see the need for a comma after any of the instances of the word, "Grammar", in my post, and there's definitely no need for a full stop after, "Right" (except the one that's there). No offence, but you should re-read what you've read very carefully - and then admit the calamitous error of your ways. Don't make me quote chapter and grammatical verse at you. It could be the worst bloodbath over a comma you've ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 FFS. Surely the title should be "Dunn 2 Deff"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 or at the very least Dunn Too Deff... Very poor show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for_heaven's_Saint Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 While I'm at it, please can anyone who writes 'definately' or 'there' instead of 'their' please tell me why you do this and if you can change. I promise not to be an arrogant tw a t about it as I am a tree hugger at heart. As someone who's currently studying for an English Literature degree, I always try to write correctly, in terms of both grammar and spelling. However, I have never been an amazing speller, and there are certain words that I often make mistakes with. Not the examples you use above, I don't struggle with homophones, but other fairly common words that you may expect an educated person to be able to spell. These are not deliberate mistakes, it's just for some reason a select few words get me every time. I don't think that bad spelling or punctuation is a sign of ignorance or even that it can be used as any sort of indicator of a person's intelligence. I'm no scientist but I'd suggest, at least in my own case, it's about the way the writer's thought processes work and how their brain does certain stuff. I feel that I am perfectly capable of writing so that people can understand me, it's just that I can't for the life of me spell certain words. Saying this though, I do usually look the spelling of a word up before I use it if I'm not sure, but this is so as not to embarrass myself, not for anyone else's benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 No offence, but you should re-read what you've read very carefully - and then admit the calamitous error of your ways. Don't make me quote chapter and grammatical verse at you. It could be the worst bloodbath over a comma you've ever seen. I'm with Ponty on this. But I'd like to see a fight, if there's one in the offing..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 As someone who's currently studying for an English Literature degree' date=' I always try to write correctly, in terms of both grammar and spelling. However, I have never been an amazing speller, and there are certain words that I often make mistakes with. Not the examples you use above, I don't struggle with homophones, but other fairly common words that you may expect an educated person to be able to spell. These are not deliberate mistakes, it's just for some reason a select few words get me every time. [b']I don't think that bad spelling or punctuation is a sign of ignorance or even that it can be used as any sort of indicator of a person's intelligence. I'm no scientist but I'd suggest, at least in my own case, it's about the way the writer's thought processes work and how their brain does certain stuff.[/b] I feel that I am perfectly capable of writing so that people can understand me, it's just that I can't for the life of me spell certain words. Saying this though, I do usually look the spelling of a word up before I use it if I'm not sure, but this is so as not to embarrass myself, not for anyone else's benefit. Using the example of 'definite', I know how to spell it because I think about where the word came from and what it means, what 'finite' means, how the word is made up. For a lot of people, particularly those who take the meaning of words more completely from usage, spelling is much more a matter of just remembering the order of the letters that have been chosen to represent that word. To a large extent for them each word stands alone as an arbitrary spelling, rather than a sensible (if complicated) set of rules and roots. I would say that this isn't a measure of intelligence but a gauge of how a person understands the workings and function of language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 I'm with Ponty on this. But I'd like to see a fight, if there's one in the offing..? I'm just being uncharacteristically obnoxious. (I'm right though. Please see Michael Dummet, 'Style and Grammar' - the best and most entertaining book I know on the subject. It's pedant's heaven.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for_heaven's_Saint Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 I'm just being uncharacteristically obnoxious. (I'm right though. Please see Michael Dummet, 'Style and Grammar' - the best and most entertaining book I know on the subject. It's pedant's heaven.) Ever come accross David Crystal? He is highly critical of prescriptivist linguists- those who feel that every rule should be followed to the letter. Bit of a nutter but I like the cut of his Jib. http://www.1066andallthat.com/english_modern/crystal_interview.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Ever come accross David Crystal? He is highly critical of prescriptivist linguists- those who feel that every rule should be followed to the letter. Bit of a nutter but I like the cut of his Jib. http://www.1066andallthat.com/english_modern/crystal_interview.asp I hadn't heard of him but I'm not surprised he exists. But for the avoidance of doubt, as lawyers say, I'm not being entirely serious. Dummett's book is interesting because he felt he needed to take time out from his day job as one of the world's outstanding philosophical minds to write a book that might help his students write a decipherable sentence. Along the way, it's very funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Every time I go past Rotten Ronnie's burger shack, I wince at the lack of capitalisation in "i'm lovin' it". There's no excuse for laziness, nor for promoting poor grammar or punctuation in advertising, particularly with spell-checking and automatic grammar correction, ( provided, of course, that you ensure you are using 'International English', whatever that is - colour has a 'u' and grey has an 'e', aluminium is not 'aluminum', and nuclear is not pronounce 'nucl-err'; why can't the Yanks refer to their dialect as 'Americanese' ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 (edited) Every time I go past Rotten Ronnie's burger shack, I wince at the lack of capitalisation in "i'm lovin' it". There's no excuse for laziness, nor for promoting poor grammar or punctuation in advertising, particularly with spell-checking and automatic grammar correction, ( provided, of course, that you ensure you are using 'International English', whatever that is - colour has a 'u' and grey has an 'e', aluminium is not 'aluminum', and nuclear is not pronounce 'nucl-err'; why can't the Yanks refer to their dialect as 'Americanese' ). Some of what now passes for Americanese is Irish in origin. George Bernard Shaw was the loudest advocate for simplifying spelling and punctuation. Read any of his plays and you'll see what I mean. Of course, he delighted in suggesting that to insist on good spelling - in all its convoluted Englishness - was to act as a British imperialist lackey. So colour became color, judgement became judgment, and commas went the way of T Rex. Arguably, without it, you couldn't have had Ernest Hemingway. Or Jeffrey Archer. Edited 26 October, 2009 by Verbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deppo Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Don't regard it as wasted. I care about SFC, and about the people who who post here. Is this a trap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 26 October, 2009 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Well, no, coz I'm not looking for perfect writing on a message board, and I don't care about the precise locations of commas. I agree with Stain that perhaps some people see words as a jumble and don't understand the background of what 'their' (IT'S THEY'RE FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE - SHORT FOR THEY ARE - SIMPLE RULE) doing. I used to really struggle between 'eat' and 'ate', and all the 'theirs', but then, as a result of primary education in basic spelling, I found I understood most of it by the age of 9 and that's why I get depressed when grown men and women can't do it. Never mind, I feel better for having got it off my chest again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 I think that when you know the rules of grammar, you can be creative. For example, I will often start a sentence with... And, then go on to continue with my subject. It's rhythm, it's pace. I don't pretend to get it across to everybody, and lots of the time I can't even be bothered. But I do try to respect the reader who takes the trouble to read my posts to give them a moment when.., they can breathe. I've just broken loads of rules that my grammar teacher would have taught me. But [there I go again], I don't care. I know the correct, everyday usage, and I'm happy that, in this situation, this is suitable text. I feel that it's an extremely good idea to have the basic knowledge of how to convey meaning as, not only does it get the message across, but it does so without confusion. It also helps the understanding of, when reading other people's posts. Notice how many people get confused or misinterpret the views of others, for example, on the main forum, and also get quite angry, when all they are actually disagreeing on is the syntax. But it's not the misplaced commas, or the would of's intead of would haves, that ultimately really p!ss me [people..?] off. It's the lazy inability to convey the message. It's also when people appear to write authoritatively, and yet they have no more idea than the man-in-the-moon. If people aren't particularly sure what they are writing, because the idea is ill-founded or ill-conceived, then my advice is, either admit it, or don't write it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 tpbury is the Kitten Shooting Champion.... I think I knows wear he get's his motivation from, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 I am fiercely patriotic and the English language is the greatest success of the British people. The way in which we have lastingly conquered the world is through language and we should be proud of it. It's strange then that so many "proud to be British" posters who come to this forum haven't bothered to learn it properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonjoe Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 I think that when you know the rules of grammar, you can be creative. For example, I will often start a sentence with... And, then go on to continue with my subject. It's rhythm, it's pace. I don't pretend to get it across to everybody, and lots of the time I can't even be bothered. But I do try to respect the reader who takes the trouble to read my posts to give them a moment when.., they can breathe. I've just broken loads of rules that my grammar teacher would have taught me. But [there I go again], I don't care. I know the correct, everyday usage, and I'm happy that, in this situation, this is suitable text. I feel that it's an extremely good idea to have the basic knowledge of how to convey meaning as, not only does it get the message across, but it does so without confusion. It also helps the understanding of, when reading other people's posts. Notice how many people get confused or misinterpret the views of others, for example, on the main forum, and also get quite angry, when all they are actually disagreeing on is the syntax. But it's not the misplaced commas, or the would of's intead of would haves, that ultimately really p!ss me [people..?] off. It's the lazy inability to convey the message. It's also when people appear to write authoritatively, and yet they have no more idea than the man-in-the-moon. If people aren't particularly sure what they are writing, because the idea is ill-founded or ill-conceived, then my advice is, either admit it, or don't write it. You use far too many commas. HTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 (edited) You use far too many commas. HTH. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, . Edited 27 October, 2009 by Verbal forgot the full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustMike Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 Don't regard it as wasted. I care about SFC, and about the people who who post here. the term "get out more" springs to mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 29 October, 2009 Author Share Posted 29 October, 2009 tpbury is the Kitten Shooting Champion.... I think I knows wear he get's his motivation from, I am delighted you noticed. This is an incredibly boring, simple and time consuming game, and fits my personality perfectly. I'm trusting those errors in your post are deliberate and you are thus 'being creative' with language whilst knowing how to express yourself as per StLandrew. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 29 October, 2009 Author Share Posted 29 October, 2009 the term "get out more" springs to mind Currently unemployed in Oz where it is very hot. I take your point, but getting out more seems like too much effort right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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