LM and LC box has gone

[NickG]

fair points

[Frank's cousin]

Not quite true Frank but better than your lot continually picking the splinters from your sphincter.

 

Not quite sure who 'my lot' are, but one man's fence sitting is another's try to see the pro's and cons of both sides. We are afterall talking about football politics which in teh grand scheme of things is frankly irrelevant to life..its not some high moral judgement we are making, just discussion on the merits or lack of of the politicised windbags that used to at various satges run a football club... The previous post was meant in jest by the way... Although Alps it seems both you and Alps are taking all this so very seriously.

 

FYI, I have never met Lowe or Crouch (only Wilde) so am in no position to judge them as people. I can only make judgements on their actions and interpret these based on my own opinions on things such as financial risk, ego, communication etc. I would say from that its fine to put yourself in one camp or the other if you so chose, but not enough information really to act like zealots in an unwaivering support of either man... IMHO, acknowledging that all parties had Pros as well as the inevitable cons, seems more reasonable...

[Frank's cousin]

I just want the politics and point scoring out of Saints for good. if that can be achieved by all of the old protagonists going or none, I really do not care. But you used to get briefings and rumours every where about who had done what, with others trying to build scaffolding around the molehills to escalate things to K2 proportions.

 

But several in the Crouch group seem to have their noses out of joint, which may be down to the presence of Oldknow. I don't believe Oldknow did anything wrong, but in such a volatile and acrimonious atmosphere previously, he was the single catalyst to blow up in the Crouch gangs face and I believe that may be factored into the situation.

 

What Cortese and Liebherr have done is to take the politics completely out of Saints. No favourtism with anyone that wants to come along and pay given equal treatment. No heroes, no villans, just Saints supporters. Try going over old ground and they are not interested, just nowhere for the spite and bile to grow. Very clever move and evaporating at rate we would never have believed possible.

 

You could easily say Lowe and Wilde are sulking, hiding what ever. If they want to come back and support Saints, I think it's best they leave it until all the dust has settled. I don't believe anyone will be made to feel unwelcome in the future, unless you try to bring the politics back. And very soon with this sort of environment, we will be back to that family club that opposing and home fans felt comfortable in.

 

That's a great summary and I totally agree with what you say. I think though that poilitics will inevitably return to any club, if things dont go as planned on the pitch. After what we had been through as a club, it was natural that our reaction over the start of the season was simply glad to still have a club and add to this teh acknowledgement that AP had no real preseason and we understood it would take 10 games or so to get going - the only fear was would this be enough to ensure we avoided another drop. NOw that things have picked up we have again adjusted the goalposts with expectations moving from survival to 'can we make the playoffs?' - And although its great to be politically free right now, I wonder what would happen if we are stil in L1 in 2 years time?

[saint_mears]

traitor Rupert Lowe fans still around i see.

[alpine_saint]

traitor Rupert Lowe fans still around i see.

 

Indeed.

[NickG]

Lowe still goes - sits in row R Northam.

[Foxstone]

I just want the politics and point scoring out of Saints for good. if that can be achieved by all of the old protagonists going or none, I really do not care. But you used to get briefings and rumours every where about who had done what, with others trying to build scaffolding around the molehills to escalate things to K2 proportions.

 

But several in the Crouch group seem to have their noses out of joint, which may be down to the presence of Oldknow. I don't believe Oldknow did anything wrong, but in such a volatile and acrimonious atmosphere previously, he was the single catalyst to blow up in the Crouch gangs face and I believe that may be factored into the situation.

 

What Cortese and Liebherr have done is to take the politics completely out of Saints. No favourtism with anyone that wants to come along and pay given equal treatment. No heroes, no villans, just Saints supporters. Try going over old ground and they are not interested, just nowhere for the spite and bile to grow. Very clever move and evaporating at rate we would never have believed possible.

 

You could easily say Lowe and Wilde are sulking, hiding what ever. If they want to come back and support Saints, I think it's best they leave it until all the dust has settled. I don't believe anyone will be made to feel unwelcome in the future, unless you try to bring the politics back. And very soon with this sort of environment, we will be back to that family club that opposing and home fans felt comfortable in.

 

Amen to that brother !!

 

For me this was just as important as re-generating the team. The destructive politics displayed by all of Crouch/Wilde/Lowe over the past 3 years ( and add into that the Hone factor), did just as much to bugger up the club as people like Burley and Redknapp and their careless management of the team. Until the arrival of ML and NC we were absolutely appallingly led and governed by ALL of the shysters!

 

ML/NC have not only provided with an excellent managerial/coaching/playing set-up they have also shown how a football club should be led.

 

Now there is hope, excitement and vision where before there was nothing but division and inertia.

[Morph]

Out of interest only Morph, what about your contacts' old pal AS? He been back this season.

 

Yes he has. He renewed his season ticket in the Kingsland.

 

Also out of interested both Wiseman and Ian Gordon also attend. Saw them a couple of games back. They are both season ticket holders now.

 

Regards

 

 

Morph

[INFLUENCED.COM]

traitor Rupert Lowe fans still around i see.

 

Indeed.

 

Pathetics posts still around I see

 

Reading through most of the posts I didn't read anybody wholly supporting Lowe but posters simply being objective, you should try it.

[dubai_phil]

Yes he has. He renewed his season ticket in the Kingsland.

 

Also out of interested both Wiseman and Ian Gordon also attend. Saw them a couple of games back. They are both season ticket holders now.

 

Regards

 

 

Morph

 

Thanks Morph.

 

Which is how it should be, they clearly are fans and I am sure they are enjoying watching this year.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Not quite sure who 'my lot' are, but one man's fence sitting is another's try to see the pro's and cons of both sides. We are afterall talking about football politics which in teh grand scheme of things is frankly irrelevant to life..its not some high moral judgement we are making, just discussion on the merits or lack of of the politicised windbags that used to at various satges run a football club... The previous post was meant in jest by the way... Although Alps it seems both you and Alps are taking all this so very seriously.

 

FYI, I have never met Lowe or Crouch (only Wilde) so am in no position to judge them as people. I can only make judgements on their actions and interpret these based on my own opinions on things such as financial risk, ego, communication etc. I would say from that its fine to put yourself in one camp or the other if you so chose, but not enough information really to act like zealots in an unwaivering support of either man... IMHO, acknowledging that all parties had Pros as well as the inevitable cons, seems more reasonable...

 

Lot as in a person's destiny or condition as oppose to a number or large amount. Your stance is reasonable Frank until you decide to join the comedians and jump on the same stereotypical bandwagon as everyone else.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Lowe still goes - sits in row R Northam.

 

Frank - please note a fine example of generic humour.

[Frank's cousin]

Lot as in a person's destiny or condition as oppose to a number or large amount. Your stance is reasonable Frank until you decide to join the comedians and jump on the same stereotypical bandwagon as everyone else.

 

NC, I dont think a bit of humour does any harm surely? MOst have if anything taken the whole political sage of the last few years TOO seriously surely?

[Nineteen Canteen]

NC' date=' I dont think a bit of humour does any harm surely? MOst have if anything taken the whole political sage of the last few years TOO seriously surely?[/quote']

 

I agree Frank but considering how you have conducted yourself on this particular debate injecting humour at this stage is 'out of character'. Bit like hearing Gordon Brown suddenly start making quips about the recession. Your balanced and fair assessment has been clear from the start and as we enter the end game you start making unoriginal attempts at humour. A bit late in the day to change your posting style on this subject matter IMO and affects your credibility on this issue especially as you were one of the magnificent 6 and the one left holding the baby if I remember correctly.

[Frank's cousin]

Think you are letting this get out of hand - as to credibilty, well each poster can make their own judgement on that, I am comfortable with my own posts...actions, words...

 

...not really sure fan forums warrant 'end games' as if there is some cohesive strategy at work? I though this was all about opinion? As you know i do not advocate the blatent and rampant hatred towards any of the protagonists, and often get in conflict with a few of those who seem obsessed with the ones ide argument...

Edited 28 October, 2009 by Frank's cousin

[Wes Tender]

Think you are letting this get out of hand - as to credibilty, well each poster can make their own judgement on that, I am comfortable with my own posts...actions, words...

 

...not really sure fan forums warrant 'end games' as if there is some cohesive strategy at work? I though this was all about opinion? As you know i do not advocate the blatent and rampant hatred towards any of the protagonists, and often get in conflict with a few of those who seem obsessed with the ones ide argument...

 

As we're talking about a chapter in our history that is now closed, you're right, there is no end game, or if there was, it has taken place. Also, contrary to Nineteen's comment, I do not see why there should not be any humour in your posts, Frank. It isn't as if the matter is serious any longer, is it.

 

I'm really past caring about the past myself and will only post on this topic if somebody is trying to rewrite history. All of the protagonists who caused the club's demise have gone and the new people really cannot be criticised so far, so what is the point of raking over old ground?

[Frank's cousin]

As we're talking about a chapter in our history that is now closed, you're right, there is no end game, or if there was, it has taken place. Also, contrary to Nineteen's comment, I do not see why there should not be any humour in your posts, Frank. It isn't as if the matter is serious any longer, is it.

 

I'm really past caring about the past myself and will only post on this topic if somebody is trying to rewrite history. All of the protagonists who caused the club's demise have gone and the new people really cannot be criticised so far, so what is the point of raking over old ground?

 

Fair point - as long as we learn from it - the best thing about the current ownership is how they have removed all traces of the political shenaigans... and we strated winning again, which is bonus! ;-)

[Wes Tender]

Fair point - as long as we learn from it - the best thing about the current ownership is how they have removed all traces of the political shenaigans... and we strated winning again' date=' which is bonus! ;-)[/quote']

 

Yes, it is great to be debt free, no egos on display, no internal politics, a team full of players who do appear to give a damn and as a result, a winning streak.

 

I am as optimistic as the next man regarding our future, but it seems as if we might be in danger of being too optimistic judging by some predictions of what we might achieve this season. I think that we need to keep our feet on the ground and if we manage a much higher place than mid-table, we really can be delighted. As we have some forward momentum with this winning streak, it has allowed some to dream, but I hope that we don't get too carried away.

[NickG]

if Leon, like the others, has moved on from saints - suggest we move on from tallking about them?!

[Nineteen Canteen]

As we're talking about a chapter in our history that is now closed, you're right, there is no end game, or if there was, it has taken place. Also, contrary to Nineteen's comment, I do not see why there should not be any humour in your posts, Frank. It isn't as if the matter is serious any longer, is it.

 

I'm really past caring about the past myself and will only post on this topic if somebody is trying to rewrite history. All of the protagonists who caused the club's demise have gone and the new people really cannot be criticised so far, so what is the point of raking over old ground?

 

Wes history only closes an event when all the facts are known or at least dscussed in their entirety. Even this morning I walk up to be told the Battle of Bosworth actually took place somewhere else according to the experts!

 

Frightening thought this goes on that long but by 'end game' I mean't or rather hoped that this issue is close to being discussed out but unfortunately probably only narrowing the divide.

[RonManager]

As we have some forward momentum with this winning streak, it has allowed some to dream, but I hope that we don't get too carried away.

 

It'll be the usual result, some will, some won't, some will say they did/didn't later on in the season, some will say they knew all along what would happen and TDD will say 'Where did I say that?'

[Wes Tender]

Wes history only closes an event when all the facts are known or at least dscussed in their entirety. Even this morning I walk up to be told the Battle of Bosworth actually took place somewhere else according to the experts!

 

Frightening thought this goes on that long but by 'end game' I mean't or rather hoped that this issue is close to being discussed out but unfortunately probably only narrowing the divide.

 

But will anything further emerge about it all? There have been numerous events during the past decade or so that have remained unanswered, or at least not to the satisfaction of most of us. The reverse takeover, why Gordon Strachan left, why the executive board under Hone and Dulieu got rid of Wilde, why Lowe didn't opt for administration before the points deduction deadline, whether there was collusion between Fry the administrator and Fry the Banker at Barclays who promptly left Barclays to work for the administrators, etc.

 

There will be gagging orders over much of it, or it is not in the interests of some of them to leak anything, as it might put them in a bad light or implicate them. Likewise, I suspect that nothing of the events of the past few months will become any clearer just because we are chewing over it on an internet forum. If any of the protagonists had been still connected to the club, then there would be every reason to keep digging until something is unearthed, but as nobody has any bad feelings about the current incumbents and the bad eggs are all gone, what's the point?

[INFLUENCED.COM]

I'm really past caring about the past myself and will only post on this topic if somebody is trying to rewrite history.

 

Noone attempting to rewrite history yet your posts continue !!

[INFLUENCED.COM]

what's the point?

 

Because it creates debate, of those mentioned many other matters that are still out there continue to be regurgitated, I would think that is part and parcel of a club forum.

Those characters mentioned in this thread created emotive discussions due to mostly polarised opinions of them, I say expect topics on them for a few years yet but do not expect them to be discussed in decades to come

[Wes Tender]

Noone attempting to rewrite history yet your posts continue !!

 

Thinks...should I respond to Influenced's post and thus further continue posting on this thread?

 

No, I don't think I will.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

Thinks...should I respond to Influenced's post and thus further continue posting on this thread?

 

No, I don't think I will.

 

Good man.

[saint_mears]

Ive heard LC and LM are both BNP nazis, so there.............

[solentstars]

Pathetics posts still around I see

 

Reading through most of the posts I didn't read anybody wholly supporting Lowe but posters simply being objective, you should try it.

agree but let them live in their own saddo world.

[OldNick]

Ive heard LC and LM are both BNP nazis, so there.............

I dont think either are thought of in that way by anyone on here.

I myself see some good and some bad in them and dont put them on a pedestal any higher than anyone else.

I will accept and believe LM though, was the finest manager we ever had, and still marvel at what he brought the club in his years.After his departure to 'better things' I found his actions not so great

[Nineteen Canteen]

I dont think either are thought of in that way by anyone on here.

I myself see some good and some bad in them and dont put them on a pedestal any higher than anyone else.

I will accept and believe LM though, was the finest manager we ever had, and still marvel at what he brought the club in his years.After his departure to 'better things' I found his actions not so great

 

Until now Nick? Well we can hope but if AP can deliver us back to the Premiership then it will be an added bonus to have the McMenemy monkey off our backs. It's been to long and AP certainly seems to be going about things in a very measured and professional way, certainly more than we have been use to in any of our past managers in my memory which basically takes us back to McMenemy.

[OldNick]

Until now Nick? Well we can hope but if AP can deliver us back to the Premiership then it will be an added bonus to have the McMenemy monkey off our backs. It's been to long and AP certainly seems to be going about things in a very measured and professional way, certainly more than we have been use to in any of our past managers in my memory which basically takes us back to McMenemy.

If AP achieves 70% of what LM did as manager he will be a legend. As a manager it will take a lot to knock LM off his perch as an all time great in that respect

[dubai_phil]

If AP achieves 70% of what LM did as manager he will be a legend. As a manager it will take a lot to knock LM off his perch as an all time great in that respect

 

Agreed.

 

But to add some fuel to the debate....

 

LM was an outstanding success with us.

 

He was not such a success elsewhere.

 

When he was here he had a #2, who went on to have a successful if not outstanding career. He then returned and served the club quietly away from the limelight for many more years.

 

So, how important, or how much was LM's success attributable to his work with John Mortimer?

 

And is it not a shame that he has been largely forgotten in the greats debate?

[krissyboy31]

Agreed.

 

But to add some fuel to the debate....

 

LM was an outstanding success with us.

 

He was not such a success elsewhere.

 

When he was here he had a #2, who went on to have a successful if not outstanding career. He then returned and served the club quietly away from the limelight for many more years.

 

So, how important, or how much was LM's success attributable to his work with John Mortimer?

 

And is it not a shame that he has been largely forgotten in the greats debate?

 

I don't think that "assistant" managers and coaching staff had that much influence back then. The manager was the chief coach, the team manager and the director of football all rolled into one.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Nobody will ever be able to match what Lawrie did for us. We will never sign the quality of player he did ,bring on youngsters like he did, will never finish so high in the league again, and it's doubtful whether we'll see that style of football again. We were like Keegan's Newcastle, but for 10 years, rather than 2.

 

I couldn't care less what he's become or what he's done since, I'm just grateful for the years he gave us, and thankful I was of a generation that saw it.

 

Just because Paul Macartney's become a bit of a *** and hasn't made a decent record for 35 years, doesn't diminish what he acheived previously.

 

The word legend is used too much nowadays, but he is and will remain one at our Club. It's unfortunate that some will have to wait until he's gone before acknowledging it.

[dubai_phil]

I don't think that "assistant" managers and coaching staff had that much influence back then. The manager was the chief coach, the team manager and the director of football all rolled into one.

 

Without a doubt, but even back then I would guess they needed a buddy/partner or somebody to bounce ideas off. I recall that even in the days of Shankly they still had their bootroom.

 

I was just wondering, seemed like an area to debate, I suppose I could also have asked how important was having Ted Bates on hand to the success Lawrie had?

 

I think in the early days when the fans didn't believe in Lawire, Ted must have been a huge rock helping and supporting him and making sure he kept believing in himself when idiots under the west stand were spitting at him as he walked to the dugout.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Nobody will ever be able to match what Lawrie did for us. We will never sign the quality of player he did ,bring on youngsters like he did, will never finish so high in the league again, and it's doubtful whether we'll see that style of football again. We were like Keegan's Newcastle, but for 10 years, rather than 2.

 

I couldn't care less what he's become or what he's done since, I'm just grateful for the years he gave us, and thankful I was of a generation that saw it.

 

Just because Paul Macartney's become a bit of a *** and hasn't made a decent record for 35 years, doesn't diminish what he acheived previously.

 

The word legend is used too much nowadays, but he is and will remain one at our Club. It's unfortunate that some will have to wait until he's gone before acknowledging it.

 

Great memories doesn't automatically mean the title of legend is bestowed on the person giving those memories.

[Saint_clark]

Great memories doesn't automatically mean the title of legend is bestowed on the person giving those memories.

 

Of course it does. He led us to an FA cup win and many years in Europe. He is a Southampton legend.

What's debatable about it?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Great memories doesn't automatically mean the title of legend is bestowed on the person giving those memories.

 

That is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read.

[Nineteen Canteen]

If AP achieves 70% of what LM did as manager he will be a legend. As a manager it will take a lot to knock LM off his perch as an all time great in that respect

 

I disgaree Nick. I think if AP achieves promotion to the Premier Leaque I think that will be on a par with anything McMenemy has acheived and many of his peers. Without huge financial backing it will be impossible for Saints to achieve a 2nd place in the league and even WGS's achievement of finishing 8th in 2003 is probably a greater achievement than McMenemy who achieved his goal on a much more level playing field where money wasn't the only motivator. There is an irony in there if you look for it.

 

Great memories don't necessarily make legends and McMenemy's record of achievement relative to todays world is actually unspectacular and if Pardew continues as we hope then he will easily usurp McMenemy as the club's greatest manager and LM can jump on the next gravy train probably destined for Grimsby as that is who our 'legend' would prefer to watch for the sake of a free lunch and the price of a Saints ticket. Shame on you McMenemy - you don't deserve the reverence of this club's fanbase.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Of course it does. He led us to an FA cup win and many years in Europe. He is a Southampton legend.

What's debatable about it?

 

One trophy? Is Redknapp a legend at Portsmouth or Ramos a legend at Spurs?

 

What actually constitutes a managerial legend? Clough, Ferguson, Busby, Shankley, Paisley, Revie, Stein.

 

McMenemy may have been our best manager but that doesn't make him a legend because he didn't achieve anywhere near the level of his peers. He was just our best manager - legend is far to often used out of context and IMO is an over used superlative to describe McMenemy.

[beatlesaint]

That is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read.

 

He's good isn't he ?

[Nineteen Canteen]

That is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read.

 

You may not agree with it, but ridiculous? A legend for winning an FA Cup that seems ridiculous and then deserting us just when it starts to get interesting?

[INFLUENCED.COM]

That is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read.

 

He's good isn't he ?

 

How do you feel about McMenemy refusing to attend any Saints game now that he has to pay ? not baiting just a question, you see, although I do not agree entirely with NC, certain points are valid imo

[Wes Tender]

I disgaree Nick. I think if AP achieves promotion to the Premier Leaque I think that will be on a par with anything McMenemy has acheived and many of his peers. Without huge financial backing it will be impossible for Saints to achieve a 2nd place in the league and even WGS's achievement of finishing 8th in 2003 is probably a greater achievement than McMenemy who achieved his goal on a much more level playing field where money wasn't the only motivator. There is an irony in there if you look for it.

 

Great memories don't necessarily make legends and McMenemy's record of achievement relative to todays world is actually unspectacular and if Pardew continues as we hope then he will easily usurp McMenemy as the club's greatest manager and LM can jump on the next gravy train probably destined for Grimsby as that is who our 'legend' would prefer to watch for the sake of a free lunch and the price of a Saints ticket. Shame on you McMenemy - you don't deserve the reverence of this club's fanbase.

 

You are entitled to your opinion and I know how much you get your jollies by being the only one who holds that opinion. In this particular case, I don't think that Pardew is going to replace LM as the greatest manager in the Club's history merely by getting us back to the Premiership. As usual, you're talking complete bunk, just to get a rise out of other posters. You might as well say that Pardew will overtake Shankly, Busby, Nicholson, Robson ,etc as by your contention, it was a more level playing field then, where money wan't the main motivator.

[Nineteen Canteen]

He's good isn't he ?

 

At not getting wrapped up in over hyping the level of praise heaped on one individual. Last Saturday your legend preferred to watch Grimsby than Saints.

[Lord Duckhunter]

One trophy? Is Redknapp a legend at Portsmouth or Ramos a legend at Spurs?

 

What actually constitutes a managerial legend? Clough, Ferguson, Busby, Shankley, Paisley, Revie, Stein.

 

McMenemy may have been our best manager but that doesn't make him a legend because he didn't achieve anywhere near the level of his peers. He was just our best manager - legend is far to often used out of context and IMO is an over used superlative to describe McMenemy.

 

To us (well the normal ones amongst us) Ted's a legend as well. Although by the 19C definition, rebuilding the Club serving it for many years and gaining us our first top flight season and European games, doesn't qualify.

[Nineteen Canteen]

You are entitled to your opinion and I know how much you get your jollies by being the only one who holds that opinion. In this particular case, I don't think that Pardew is going to replace LM as the greatest manager in the Club's history merely by getting us back to the Premiership. As usual, you're talking complete bunk, just to get a rise out of other posters. You might as well say that Pardew will overtake Shankly, Busby, Nicholson, Robson ,etc as by your contention, it was a more level playing field then, where money wan't the main motivator.

 

NO Pardew won't overtake those greats because of their achievement's at the time. Nicholson won the double at Spurs at a time when the feat was almost unheard of and spoken of in hushed tones. Robson nearly won us a World Cup, Busby this country's first European cup and Shankley was a football god and you miss out Clough.

 

Everything is relative and based on what McMenemy achieved and the platform he started with Pardew will pass him and not look back if he gets us into the Premier League. It's dificult to compare achievements in two eras that have seen such a sea change and all you can do is judge each performance in its on time and assess which is the greater acheivement. Time will tell.

[Weston Saint]

Perhaps legend is the wrong word.

 

Main Entry: leg·end

Pronunciation: \ˈle-jənd\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English legende, from Anglo-French & Medieval Latin; Anglo-French legende, from Medieval Latin legenda, from Latin, feminine of legendus, gerundive of legere to gather, select, read; akin to Greek legein to gather, say, logos speech, word, reason

Date: 14th century

 

1 a : a story coming down from the past; especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable

 

b : a body of such stories

 

c : a popular myth of recent origin

 

d : a person or thing that inspires legends

 

e : the subject of a legend

 

2 a : an inscription or title on an object (as a coin)

 

b : caption

 

c : an explanatory list of the symbols on a map or chart

 

Perhaps most memorable Saints Manager might be a better qualification

[krissyboy31]

At not getting wrapped up in over hyping the level of praise heaped on one individual. Last Saturday your legend preferred to watch Grimsby than Saints.

 

He is held in very high esteem at Grimsby for what he achieved there before he moved to the Dell.

[dubai_phil]

A final input.

 

19C is making a fair point that LM may not be a first name that springs to mind when a neutral is asked to name their 5 legendary football managers of all time.

 

But, when asked in the context of Southampton Football Club's 100 year + history, when asked to name the top 3 managers to have graced the club and given service or success then he falls down badly.

 

We had the arguments about what constitutes "a Saints Legend" months ago. Franny is a legend - he scored a headed goal that is the stuff of legends. LM led us to Wembley and brought the European Player of the Year to Saints, stories that when told today to youngsters sound like the old Homeric Legends as they are so unbelievable.

 

So what the context is different, I agree 19C's point with regard to the whole after dinner speaking circuit stuff, but LM & TB are without a doubt OUR best ever managers.

 

Ignoring that simple fact and defending the argument with references to "other Club's" managers is actually not good debating tactics. We aren't Liverpool so comparing his recird to them is just well, not wise.