St Marco Posted 25 October, 2009 Share Posted 25 October, 2009 I think we were discussing the situation a few weeks ago Ah right Norwich are a good team. They will be there or there abouts at the end of the season. If we continue our form over the last 6 or so we will be there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 25 October, 2009 Share Posted 25 October, 2009 Something that seems to have passed him by. not really...the player turn over for most teams in the lower leagues is pretty darn high...not just at saints... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 25 October, 2009 Share Posted 25 October, 2009 Ah right Norwich are a good team. They will be there or there abouts at the end of the season. If we continue our form over the last 6 or so we will be there too. so, wanting more than "just surviving" is no longer unrealistic..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulstersaint Posted 25 October, 2009 Share Posted 25 October, 2009 In previous seasons many complained there was no Plan B. Now Pardew has a Plan A and a Plan B and if we are winning and making progress most of us don't care whether he is using Plan A, B, C or Z. 4 wins in a row - it's a time for celebration not analysing formations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifford Nelson Posted 25 October, 2009 Share Posted 25 October, 2009 There is a lot of debate in football circles that 4-5-1 is not only too a defensive approach but also that teams playing it can get caught out. Pardew has been using it through the run of winning games, but thats no credit to the system as often it has only been when the system has been changed that the result has come. The game against MK Dons was a prime example, where 4-5-1 resulted in Saints being a goal down at half-time, but 4-4-2 brought 3 goals in the second half. Disapointing then to see Pards still saying the system will continue. In the last five league games, since we changed to a 4-3-3/4-5-1 we have scored 13 goals and won four. Before that we could neither score nor win. Two of those 13 goals has come from Connelly picking up two bad back passes. All the rest from playing this lousy, foreign system which we ought to get rid of as soon as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 25 October, 2009 Share Posted 25 October, 2009 so, wanting more than "just surviving" is no longer unrealistic..? The way i see it is as i said at the start of the season. My minimum expectations for Pardew and his players is to stop Southampton from falling into League Two this season. Before the first kick off this season we had a pretty dire squad, and it did not get better until a couple of games in. So the team before the arrival of Lambert etc i expected to battle relegation this year. However the team that we have now that was brought in after the season started in Harding,Lambert,Trotman,Waigo,Antonio,Hammond,Mellis,Jaidi,Connolly is a far far better team. With that team you would expect this club to be among the top teams in this league. And they clearly now are. Nobody even knows the last time we won 5 games in a row, that is indication of how crap we used to be. So my expectations of the old team were to battle relegation, the team we put out last season and into the start of this season will be the worst team we ever had in my book. Where as the new team i expect now to push on and comfortably finish in the top 10. I still do not expect promotion this year. We have the team to get there and if we continue in our current form we should at least get into 6th spot. But if we don't i wont act like it is the end of the world. Because next year im sure we will get promoted a lot easier then we will this year. So i think people who expected the team to be promoted based on the team prior to the Lambert arrivals is slightly mad. Where as those expecting it on the team after the lambert arrivals are obviously sane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowllyd Posted 25 October, 2009 Share Posted 25 October, 2009 In the last five league games, since we changed to a 4-3-3/4-5-1 we have scored 13 goals and won four. Before that we could neither score nor win. Two of those 13 goals has come from Connelly picking up two bad back passes. All the rest from playing this lousy, foreign system which we ought to get rid of as soon as possible. I agree entirely, except that you're actually understating your case. We've scored 13 goals in the last four league matches, 15 in the last five. We should have had a few in the first half yesterday, and had one disallowed. And we looked by far the better side all match. If we looked unlikely to score when playing 4-5-1/4-3-3 then I'd agree with the original poster, but that's hardly the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Mullet Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 As others say, its simplistic to call our formation 4-5-1. Quite apart from the fact that we've been playing a 4-3-3/4-1-2-2-1, the players matter most. For instance, supposed 4-5-1 with Wotton, Hammond and Schneiderlin in the middle is a fundamentally different proposition from a 4-5-1 with Mellis, Hammond and Schneiderlin there. The key decision yesterday was subbing Wotton once it was known that MK dons were happy to spoil the game. Yes we went 4-4-2 after Connolly came on but again the formation is less important than the players in the formation. Notably AP could have easily taken off Schneiderlin instead of Wotton in the belief that we needed a bit more steel to compensate for the second striker. But he stuck with players who were more capable of attacking and reaped the rewards. I have no complaints that AP went with the same team that beat Oldham - of course, Oldham was an away game but its not as if we didn't create chances or score goals. Mostly credit to AP that he changed things after just 50 mins - he could have quite easily waited another 15 mins before taking action. This thread shows just how little some fans on this forum know about the game. Good job there are a few people like Shurlock on here. He's spot on with everything said above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 There is a lot of debate in football circles that 4-5-1 is not only too a defensive approach but also that teams playing it can get caught out. Pardew has been using it through the run of winning games, but thats no credit to the system as often it has only been when the system has been changed that the result has come. The game against MK Dons was a prime example, where 4-5-1 resulted in Saints being a goal down at half-time, but 4-4-2 brought 3 goals in the second half. Disapointing then to see Pards still saying the system will continue. Is this thread really criticising a manager for sticking with tactics that have just produced 4 straight wins? Bizarre to the extreme! Yes we were a goal down - but it was totally one sided in our favour against the inform team in the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 lambert at norwich boothroyd at colchester both spring to mind I guess you weren't on here throughout the closed season. That's fair enough, we can't all keep up-to-date with all things Saints all of the time. It's OK though I can fill you in. Well to cut a long story short we nearly went out of business, the club was sold from adminstration, we sacked our coach, sold a number of last season's regular starters, didn't have a pre-season and a large percentage of our first team including our manager - Alan Pardew - joined us with only weeks of pre-season left. We didn't have a proper back room staff and so this has been assembled as we've played matches. In fact in the last couple of weeks we've still been signing players on loans and frees. These players also featured in the match on Saturday suggesting we're still not quite the finished article. Of the team that finished the match on Saturday only Davis, James, Lallana and Schneiderlin were here last year. We're a work in progress having suffered massive disruption to our planning when other teams in our League were tuning their squad with minor additions here and there. Hope that brings you up-to-date. I'd give you Lambert at Norwich though as he certainly has hit the ground running with a squad that looked dreadful under Brian Gunn. But they have had nowhere near the level of disruption we faced. Boothroyd walked into Colchester with them 5th in the league - not sure there was too much to be turned around there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 I guess you weren't on here throughout the closed season. That's fair enough, we can't all keep up-to-date with all things Saints all of the time. It's OK though I can fill you in. Well to cut a long story short we nearly went out of business, the club was sold from adminstration, we sacked our coach, sold a number of last season's regular starters, didn't have a pre-season and a large percentage of our first team including our manager - Alan Pardew - joined us with only weeks of pre-season left. We didn't have a proper back room staff and so this has been assembled as we've played matches. In fact in the last couple of weeks we've still been signing players on loans and frees. These players also featured in the match on Saturday suggesting we're still not quite the finished article. Of the team that finished the match on Saturday only Davis, James, Lallana and Schneiderlin were here last year. We're a work in progress having suffered massive disruption to our planning when other teams in our League were tuning their squad with minor additions here and there. Hope that brings you up-to-date. I'd give you Lambert at Norwich though as he certainly has hit the ground running with a squad that looked dreadful under Brian Gunn. But they have had nowhere near the level of disruption we faced. Boothroyd walked into Colchester with them 5th in the league - not sure there was too much to be turned around there. Hallelujah... It was so obvious at the time Pardew arrived we were a cardiac patient fresh from yet another attack - almost fecking fatal. But no, some people expected us to leap off the operating table (before the surgeon had even taken a look) and into top gear there and then.. They refused to acknowledge that we needed MAJOR SURGERY. That surgery took time to effect and time to heal. It took about eight/ten games. We are now healed and in rehabilitation and guess what? The surgery is working. To talk of 'turnaround' is b u ll sh i t of the highest order. We turned nothing around. We were sick and we're getting better with the addition of a good manager and some terrific new players. Football really is very, very simple. Like some of the fans it seems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Hallelujah... It was so obvious at the time Pardew arrived we were a cardiac patient fresh from yet another attack - almost fecking fatal. But no, some people expected us to leap off the operating table (before the surgeon had even taken a look) and into top gear there and then.. They refused to acknowledge that we needed MAJOR SURGERY. That surgery took time to effect and time to heal. It took about eight/ten games. We are now healed and in rehabilitation and guess what? The surgery is working. To talk of 'turnaround' is b u ll sh i t of the highest order. We turned nothing around. We were sick and we're getting better with the addition of a good manager and some terrific new players. Football really is very, very simple. Like some of the fans it seems... Ok then - that's your opinion . My opinion is that raising concerns regarding our poor start to the season should not be a matter for embarrassment to anybody - the record shows that after a significant proportion of the season had elapsed we were averaging only 1 point per game (relegation form) - it seems to me perfectly in order to raise that on a SFC football forum . Those asking questions in my opinion had a better grip on the realities of modern football than the 'give Alan Pardew two seasons regardless' faction , this is a results business after all . We're playing well now and (more importantly) getting good results and as long as that continues everyone will be happy , it was ever thus in football . I don't give managers unquestioning support - they have to earn it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Ok then - that's your opinion . My opinion is that raising concerns regarding our poor start to the season should not be a matter for embarrassment to anybody - the record shows that after a significant proportion of the season had elapsed we were averaging only 1 point per game (relegation form) - it seems to me perfectly in order to raise that on a SFC football forum . Those asking questions in my opinion had a better grip on the realities of modern football than the 'give Alan Pardew two seasons regardless' faction , this is a results business after all . We're playing well now and (more importantly) getting good results and as long as that continues everyone will be happy , it was ever thus in football . I don't give managers unquestioning support - they have to earn it . I don't recall anyone saying give him two seasons regardless of results. If people did, then they're bonkers - I agree with you 100%. However, calling into question the surgeon's results when he still has his gloves on and his hands massaging the patient's heart is also bonkers, in my opinion. It took two months (that being the missing pre-season) for our squad to come together. All the evidence was there that the new manager had a grip on the issues and was working hard to put them right. In my view (and yes that's the beauty of opinions!) it wasn't hard to see that results would come because of the actions the management team were taking. Fear is one thing, faith another but all we needed was a little patience and trust. You could employ someone today and call them into question over their results at 11am, but I wonder whether that would really be fair? Or productive? So, in the end it's your judgement about when you can start to question results. Is seven games sufficient to judge a manager? I don't believe it is, you may. You would agree (I hope) that results haven't turned around. We only lost three games despite playing top half sides, and the manager established during that period where the weaknesses were and worked quickly to address them. What we're seeing is wonderful because it is the result of hard work behind the scenes to get the right players, playing the right way. That cannot happen overnight. Tbh I'm surprised it came together as quickly as it did. And for the record I was not one of those 'survival' will be ok merchants. My money is at least where my mouth is having backed us for promotion and to win the league!! (Which I confess may also make me bonkers!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Except that they are! they are more like 4-1-2-3 and 4-4-2 The first looks like this: Wotton Hammond Morgan Waigo Lambert Lallana Waigo and lallana are playing as wingers that are required to get right up and down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 4-5-1 = Plan A 4-4-2 = Plan B Refreshing to have x2 plans for a change... especially when both bring you x3 3-1 wins on the bounce. Pardew is a better manager than the Professor methinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickfinks Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Don't care formation we play if we win. Couldn't give a toss +442 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopkins Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 I can't honestly think of a top team that are currently using 442. Its the most outdated system in football. Its bog standard, easy to break down and way to rigid and very rarely do teams play a straight forward 442 anymore. 451/433 is the best formation around at the moment. How anyone, especially Professor can claim that in football circles its being questioned is beyond me. Its the system every team is using at the moment if they can, and is the one that produces the best football and results. The holding midfielder has changed football massively and is probably one of the most important players in football now. The wingers go back and forth and the lone striker is going to become much more prominent in football over the next few years. When you think of good strikers now, you think of Torres, Zlaten etc, players who play upfront on there own and can lead a line by themselves. I challenge anyone to find me a team with a succesful bog standard 442 at the moment. 451 is the future. Its our best system and the best system in football at the moment. It suits us best and the introduction of Connelly gives us options. It doesn't mean we have to change a winning succesful system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 I challenge anyone to find me a team with a succesful bog standard 442 at the moment. Current Premiership Champions Man Utd? Leeds Utd 1st place in Southampton's league? What do I win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 All Pardew did was swop the defensive third midfielder for a striker. The swop of Antonio for Waigo wasn't positional it was a just a change of personnel at wide right. The two systems are just that, a holding midfielder and one striker or no holding midfielder and two strikers. Everything else stays the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 All Pardew did was swop the defensive third midfielder for a striker. The swop of Antonio for Waigo wasn't positional it was a just a change of personnel at wide right. The two systems are just that, a holding midfielder and one striker or no holding midfielder and two strikers. Everything else stays the same. No I disagree, the player roles change. The wide midfielders become more defensive and don't play as high up the pitch and also impacts on how the full backs play. In the 451 Lallana and Papa Waigo play as wingers. In the 442 Lallana and Antonio play further back as Lambert has support from Connolly. Without the Wotton as the holding midfielder it requires one of Hammond/Schneiderlin to cover the other. So quite different imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paris Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 "If it works don't fix it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 "If it works don't fix it" Which one are you saying worked? 451 was 1-0 to MK Dons (although got 3 wins before that) 442 scored Saints 3 goals against MK Dons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Porter Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 I can't honestly think of a top team that are currently using 442. Its the most outdated system in football. Its bog standard, easy to break down and way to rigid and very rarely do teams play a straight forward 442 anymore. 451/433 is the best formation around at the moment. Spain. I think five in midfield is the better formation but that doesn't mean it's the only option. If the players at your disposal are more suited to a 4-4-2 then it's going to be the better tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 No I disagree, the player roles change. The wide midfielders become more defensive and don't play as high up the pitch and also impacts on how the full backs play. In the 451 Lallana and Papa Waigo play as wingers. In the 442 Lallana and Antonio play further back as Lambert has support from Connolly. Without the Wotton as the holding midfielder it requires one of Hammond/Schneiderlin to cover the other. So quite different imo. I agree one of Schneiderlin/Hammond -arguably Schneiderlin- dropped slightly deeper after Wotton went off (recall Hammond's position for our first goal) but don't think the jobs or positions of Lallana or Antonio changed all that much. AP was looking to turn the screws on a team that was happy to put bodies behind the ball not perfectly balance one formation for another. On another day, playing another striker like Connolly might require the widefielders to stay further back; but not on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 You could employ someone today and call them into question over their results at 11am, but I wonder whether that would really be fair? Or productive? So, in the end it's your judgement about when you can start to question results. Is seven games sufficient to judge a manager? I don't believe it is, you may. Hang on a minute , calling for an improvement in the teams (poor) initial results and passing some final judgment on Alan Pardew as a utter failure are not the same thing at all . Who exactly were all these people on here calling for his immediate dismissal anyway ? - 2 or 3 at the very most if memory serves . I've accepted that our preseason was disrupted so many times that I'm not going to repeat myself on the subject , suffice it to say that this is obviously true . It seems to me however that it's equally true that many other teams in this division had (to a greater or lessor extent) their own problems to overcome - arguably some made a better job of it than we did over the first 10 or so fixtures . I have to say with all due respect to our opponent's that the standard in this division is not particularly high frankly , bearing that in mind perhaps there was an opportunity to climb the table at a somewhat quicker rate than we did despite of our difficulties . Fortunately we have just about enough games left to repair this damage to our season - I'm quite sure both of us and every other Saints fan on here for that matter hope that we do . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 No I disagree, the player roles change. The wide midfielders become more defensive and don't play as high up the pitch and also impacts on how the full backs play. In the 451 Lallana and Papa Waigo play as wingers. In the 442 Lallana and Antonio play further back as Lambert has support from Connolly. Without the Wotton as the holding midfielder it requires one of Hammond/Schneiderlin to cover the other. So quite different imo. Watch it next time it happens, Lallana played exactly the same half narrow way he played previously, neither played as wingers and Antonio was different to Waigo and stayed wider. Of course two midfielders play slightly differently but neither were attacking much with Wotton playing. Waigo caused the problem after 25 mins playing inside and taking away the width on the right, that's why he was offside all the time and why he was substituted after 54 mins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Saint Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 4-5-1 is not more 'defensive' than 4-4-2. Quite the opposite. Against a creaky old-fashioned 4-4-2, it allows you to dominate the game in the centre of your park, play more of a passing game and release men forward on the flanks where they will do more damage. If you do come under pressure early on, it also gives you the potential to block the ability of the opposition to get good ball forward to their forwards and often leads to them resorting to long-ball football - always easier to deal with particularly with our giant centre-halves. On the other hand teams tire; spaces open up and many teams who start out 4-5-1 will have the intelligence and nouse to know when switching tactical approaches may pay off and, despite its obvious limitations as a strategy from the start, 4-4-2 can work in this context. Full marks to AP for his tactical nouse and flexibility in thisi respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 (edited) Watch it next time it happens, Lallana played exactly the same half narrow way he played previously, neither played as wingers and Antonio was different to Waigo and stayed wider. Of course two midfielders play slightly differently but neither were attacking much with Wotton playing. Waigo caused the problem after 25 mins playing inside and taking away the width on the right, that's why he was offside all the time and why he was substituted after 54 mins. Lallana and Waigo are playing as wingers, they have done for a long time now. First you said Lallana was playing a second striker role and now you suggest he is just a midfielder. You seem to have a real blindspot with him. Is that phrase "same half narrow way" some sort of slight? You moaned about him and blamed him for our problems for yonks yet he has been absolutely fantastic in that role. Ever considered that you might just might be wrong from time to time, especially regarding Lallana? Wago didn't cause a problem by his lack of width, he caused a problem through his lack of penetration. Do any of you posts about our performance not refer to width? Don't get me wrong I think we have needed pace out wide and someone to cross from the byeline for a long time, but there are several ways to skin a cat as Lallana has shown. Check out Boyd at the Posh. Lallana plays exactly the same role as him. Wide left with liscence to roam. Both are top notch and hopefully Lallana can get us promoted like Boyd did. Edited 26 October, 2009 by Chez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 http://www.epltalk.com/tactics-and-the-modern-game-the-perils-of-overstating-the-case/4729 Shankly didn't do too badly did he ?? The essence of this article is that if you have good players and can motivate them, then the actual formation is secondary !!! Someone said previously that we are getting better results with a settled group of 11 players, plus a few subs surely that is more the key to success than systems etc... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifford Nelson Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 Lallana and Waigo are playing as wingers, they have done for a long time now. First you said Lallana was playing a second striker role and now you suggest he is just a midfielder. You seem to have a real blindspot with him. Is that phrase "same half narrow way" some sort of slight? You moaned about him and blamed him for our problems for yonks yet he has been absolutely fantastic in that role. Ever considered that you might just might be wrong from time to time, especially regarding Lallana? Wago didn't cause a problem by his lack of width, he caused a problem through his lack of penetration. Do any of you posts about our performance not refer to width? Don't get me wrong I think we have needed pace out wide and someone to cross from the byeline for a long time, but there are several ways to skin a cat as Lallana has shown. Check out Boyd at the Posh. Lallana plays exactly the same role as him. Wide left with liscence to roam. Both are top notch and hopefully Lallana can get us promoted like Boyd did. Can you tell any current wingers who cross from the byeline? I have started to question that they exist anymore, and that one of the reasons for that is that full backs these days have got more pace than they used to. Anyway I think that the call for width and wingers is a bit of a dream. If they are there, then well and good, otherwise we have to organise the team to suit the skills we have available. I rather think that AP has done a rather good job of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainchris Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 There is a lot of debate in football circles that 4-5-1 is not only too a defensive approach but also that teams playing it can get caught out. Pardew has been using it through the run of winning games, but thats no credit to the system as often it has only been when the system has been changed that the result has come. The game against MK Dons was a prime example, where 4-5-1 resulted in Saints being a goal down at half-time, but 4-4-2 brought 3 goals in the second half. Disapointing then to see Pards still saying the system will continue. It wasn't so much the system that turned the game Saturday as the personel change. If Antonio had been on the pitch instead of PW at the start we may well have won by a wider margin with the same 4-5-1 formation..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 26 October, 2009 Share Posted 26 October, 2009 (edited) Hang on a minute , calling for an improvement in the teams (poor) initial results and passing some final judgment on Alan Pardew as a utter failure are not the same thing at all . Who exactly were all these people on here calling for his immediate dismissal anyway ? - 2 or 3 at the very most if memory serves . I've accepted that our preseason was disrupted so many times that I'm not going to repeat myself on the subject , suffice it to say that this is obviously true . It seems to me however that it's equally true that many other teams in this division had (to a greater or lessor extent) their own problems to overcome - arguably some made a better job of it than we did over the first 10 or so fixtures . I have to say with all due respect to our opponent's that the standard in this division is not particularly high frankly , bearing that in mind perhaps there was an opportunity to climb the table at a somewhat quicker rate than we did despite of our difficulties . Fortunately we have just about enough games left to repair this damage to our season - I'm quite sure both of us and every other Saints fan on here for that matter hope that we do . This is a nonsense. You start an argument I didn't make. You then say we wasted the start of the season. Repair the damage??? Sorry mate, you've lost me. The start of the season was not damage in my view. It was the manager doing what he should have been able to do in pre-season. Therefore you judged that he was failing to deliver. In my view he wasn't. He was simply working out who could play, who couldn't, what he needed, where and to do what. All things he put right in six weeks, while still maintaing decent results. What was he supposed to do, make those assessments by commentating on United v Chelsea for FiveLive?? When you can name the other managers who started work a week before the season started managing a team that were a fortnight from going bust and have now won four on the spin, lost only three games and are the third highest scorers in their league, let me know... Edited 26 October, 2009 by Legod Third Coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 .... When you can name the other managers who started work a week before the season started managing a team that were a fortnight from going bust and have now won four on the spin, lost only three games and are the third highest scorers in their league, let me know... To be fair I never claimed other clubs had exactly the same problems as us did I ? I do say many other clubs have their own problems to overcome and may have made a rather better job of it than we did initially - 3 quick examples : AFC Bournemouth - Young inexperienced manager running a pitifully small squad with no money to spend even if the FA lifted their crippling transfer embargo = top of L2 Newcastle Utd - Their owner has been trying to offload the club for months , managerial situation in chaos all summer and one of our academy boys playing as a regular 1st team striker = Top of the CCC . Colchester Utd - The chairman let both their well respected manager and team captain leave after the season had started = 3rd in L1 scoring at a rate of 2 points per game (we are on 1.5 points per game btw) In addition there are countless examples of managers arriving at clubs mid-season and instantly improving their results - I'm sure you can see the obvious truth in that . The point I must continue to make is that 9 points after 9 games was a pretty damaging start in all honesty and that any number of excuses will count for nothing next May - you just have to make the best of it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 To be fair I never claimed other clubs had exactly the same problems as us did I ? I do say many other clubs have their own problems to overcome and may have made a rather better job of it than we did initially - 3 quick examples : AFC Bournemouth - Young inexperienced manager running a pitifully small squad with no money to spend even if the FA lifted their crippling transfer embargo = top of L2 Newcastle Utd - Their owner has been trying to offload the club for months , managerial situation in chaos all summer and one of our academy boys playing as a regular 1st team striker = Top of the CCC . Colchester Utd - The chairman let both their well respected manager and team captain leave after the season had started = 3rd in L1 scoring at a rate of 2 points per game (we are on 1.5 points per game btw) In addition there are countless examples of managers arriving at clubs mid-season and instantly improving their results - I'm sure you can see the obvious truth in that . The point I must continue to make is that 9 points after 9 games was a pretty damaging start in all honesty and that any number of excuses will count for nothing next May - you just have to make the best of it . is that the Bournemouth who finished last season with 3 straight wins, kept their manager and team together, had preseason build up and started well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 is that the Bournemouth who finished last season with 3 straight wins, kept their manager and team together, had preseason build up and started well? Yes that's the one , you know that little club in Dorset that are so skint that they have to have 16 year old school boys on the bench just to make the numbers up . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 hardly backs up point about slow starts new managers etc! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 The formation should not matter, its whether the players can adapt to it so that we have several plans A,B and C ot outwit the oppostion which although early days seems to be working... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 27 October, 2009 Author Share Posted 27 October, 2009 Is this thread really criticising a manager for sticking with tactics that have just produced 4 straight wins? Bizarre to the extreme! Yes we were a goal down - but it was totally one sided in our favour against the inform team in the division. But it also a fact that the win only came after changing the system. How is that to the credit of 4-5-1? It is to Pards credit that he is willing to change tactics during the game, but there is no getting away from the fact that this is a defensive formation, that has more of a place in away games, less so at home. If the opinion is extremely bizarre, its strange that there are many respected football people with reservations about 4-5-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 (edited) To be fair I never claimed other clubs had exactly the same problems as us did I ? I do say many other clubs have their own problems to overcome and may have made a rather better job of it than we did initially - 3 quick examples : AFC Bournemouth - Young inexperienced manager running a pitifully small squad with no money to spend even if the FA lifted their crippling transfer embargo = top of L2 Newcastle Utd - Their owner has been trying to offload the club for months , managerial situation in chaos all summer and one of our academy boys playing as a regular 1st team striker = Top of the CCC . Colchester Utd - The chairman let both their well respected manager and team captain leave after the season had started = 3rd in L1 scoring at a rate of 2 points per game (we are on 1.5 points per game btw) In addition there are countless examples of managers arriving at clubs mid-season and instantly improving their results - I'm sure you can see the obvious truth in that . The point I must continue to make is that 9 points after 9 games was a pretty damaging start in all honesty and that any number of excuses will count for nothing next May - you just have to make the best of it . There are countless examples of managers arriving at clubs, seeing an instant impact on results, and then that impact tailing off over time and results reverting to type. You cannot say that 9 points in 9 games was damaging unless Pardew started the season with the current team in place. He didn't, he had to assmble that team. Therefore your only criticism must be that he did not assemble the players quickly enough. Well, my view is this: how was he supposed to know what to assemble without evidence?? For years we built up a bloated squad (about 13 midfielders under Burley) fixing things that weren't broke, breaking things that were fixed, because managers had not taken (were not given) sufficient time or resources to put together the right squad. Your assertion that this should have happened sooner is fine, that's your view. Personally, I would rather Pardew took the requisite amount of time and got it right. It looks to me like he's got it right. If we go the rest of the season unbeaten and are promoted, those 9 games are the price you had to pay to get it right. You can't have success without putting in the effort. I think you seriously underestimate the amount of work Pardew had to do with our team. Don't believe me,? Check the opening day line-up and the one that actually won the last four games... Edited 27 October, 2009 by Legod Third Coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Will Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 There are countless examples of managers arriving at clubs, seeing an instant impact on results, and then that impact tailing off over time and results reverting to type. You cannot say that 9 points in 9 games was damaging unless Pardew started the season with the current team in place. He didn't, he had to assmble that team. Therefore your only criticism must be that he did not assemble the players quickly enough. Well, my view is this: how was he supposed to know what to assemble without evidence?? For years we built up a bloated squad (about 13 midfielders under Burley) fixing things that weren't broke, breaking things that were fixed, because managers had not taken (were not given) sufficient time or resources to put together the right squad. Your assertion that this should have happened sooner is fine, that's your view. Personally, I would rather Pardew took the requisite amount of time and got it right. It looks to me like he's got it right. If we go the rest of the season unbeaten and are promoted, those 9 games are the price you had to pay to get it right. You can't have success without putting in the effort. I think you seriously underestimate the amount of work Pardew had to do with our team. Don't believe me,? Check the opening day line-up and the one that actually won the last four games... Absolutely right. You obviously had the patience and intelligence to know that to be true, it's just a shame so many didn't! Anyway, it's all good now, let's focus on getting promoted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 27 October, 2009 Share Posted 27 October, 2009 But it also a fact that the win only came after changing the system. How is that to the credit of 4-5-1? It is to Pards credit that he is willing to change tactics during the game, but there is no getting away from the fact that this is a defensive formation, that has more of a place in away games, less so at home. If the opinion is extremely bizarre, its strange that there are many respected football people with reservations about 4-5-1. the win did only come after the change of system. the previous games were won with the system the first 30 mins of MK game was with 4-5-1 (4-3-3) and was one of the most one sided starts to a game (against the in-form team in the league) that I have seen. Its bizarre as our manager changed tactics a few games ago, since then we have played well and won our games - and yet some are still seeking to criticise him for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 28 October, 2009 Share Posted 28 October, 2009 There are countless examples of managers arriving at clubs, seeing an instant impact on results, and then that impact tailing off over time and results reverting to type. You cannot say that 9 points in 9 games was damaging unless Pardew started the season with the current team in place. He didn't, he had to assmble that team. Therefore your only criticism must be that he did not assemble the players quickly enough. Well, my view is this: how was he supposed to know what to assemble without evidence?? For years we built up a bloated squad (about 13 midfielders under Burley) fixing things that weren't broke, breaking things that were fixed, because managers had not taken (were not given) sufficient time or resources to put together the right squad. Your assertion that this should have happened sooner is fine, that's your view. Personally, I would rather Pardew took the requisite amount of time and got it right. It looks to me like he's got it right. If we go the rest of the season unbeaten and are promoted, those 9 games are the price you had to pay to get it right. You can't have success without putting in the effort. I think you seriously underestimate the amount of work Pardew had to do with our team. Don't believe me,? Check the opening day line-up and the one that actually won the last four games... Every point dropped must be damaging to some extent - I can't for the life of me understand why that simple truth annoys you so . I'm sure you want us to make the play-offs this season (so do I) so the 15 or 20 dropped points at the start of the season may well be a deciding factor on whether we achieve that laudable objective . Time will tell of course . As for any criticism from myself regarding Alan Pardew's alacrity in assemble the current squad that is most definitely not an argument I've ever made or will make . For the record I think the management team (backed by the owners money) have done very well in signing players this season , I trust we our both clear on that point . The 'no preseason' argument I find not entirely convincing , if memory serves AP had 3 or 4 games to work on the team (new managers are often thrown straight into the action) and the majority of our players most certainly did undergo a full preseason training routine either here or at their previous clubs . We did IMO have a respectable enough squad for this division ready for game one against Millwall , a squad that perhaps could have done rather better than it did . I have accepted ad infinitum that AP's late arrival here has presented us with a problem - almost every team has problems and their managers are paid a lot of money to overcome these problems , that is their job is it not ? I note with interest that Alan Pardew seldom if ever uses any of the numerous excuses I read on here all the time to explain our poor start to the season , perhaps some on here would do well to follow his (admirable) example . ....................................................................................... I think I'll leave this here as we seem to be going around in circles , what's past is past and lets concentrate on what looks like a very bright future . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 28 October, 2009 Share Posted 28 October, 2009 he has not made any excuses as no right minded person criticised his performance, and luckily he probably wasn't aware of the minority on here who were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 28 October, 2009 Share Posted 28 October, 2009 The good thing about our squad now is that we have the capability to change formation effectively during the game, plus a manager who's not scared to do so. At the start of the season the squad did not really allow this. Also, our formation depends on how the opposition approach the game. So sometimes 4-5-1 will work, in other games it'll be 4-4-2. Unless you are a top Premiership team with an abundance of star players it's nigh on impossible to play the same formation week in week out for 90 mins and expect to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 28 October, 2009 Share Posted 28 October, 2009 (edited) We did IMO have a respectable enough squad for this division ready for game one against Millwall , a squad that perhaps could have done rather better than it did . Totally disagree with that. If you saw Thomas, Perry and then Lancashire all getting the run around by Huddersfield you'd have to conclude that we were absolutely woeful at the back. That same game would have also told you how weak we were at right midfield and how little pace we had up front. The total turnaround can be pointed completely to the Trottman/Jardi partnership who have put a stop to set peice goals conceded, prevented big number 9s from dominating games, and all but stopped teams from hurting us when they play up front for the last 10 minutes and hoof it forward. Better player in, better results produced. If AP had come in earlier he may have got these players earlier. Edited 28 October, 2009 by Chez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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