BNP on Question Time ......

[dune]

Walking back to Leyton tube station my attention was drawn to a group of Saints lads chanting EDL. Serious question to those on the left that have monopolised this thread - what would you have done if you'd been there and heard them?

[Wiltshire Saint]

Walking back to Leyton tube station my attention was drawn to a group of Saints lads chanting EDL. Serious question to those on the left that have monopolised this thread - what would you have done if you'd been there and heard them?

 

I would have approached them and pointed out that the world is one and we are one. I would have said "Hey lads, come on, don't be silly now, we are all citizens of the world and there's enough love here for everyone."

 

 

I would then have given them one of my cards for my website

[Mao Cap]

Walking back to Leyton tube station my attention was drawn to a group of Saints lads chanting EDL. Serious question to those on the left that have monopolised this thread - what would you have done if you'd been there and heard them?

 

Ooh, uber-macho hard-man implications of violence in response to reasoned argument...not fascistic at all, lol.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't have said anything because I was with my parents, brother and brother's girlfriend and didn't want any ensuing bullsh*t inflicted on them. Ironically, I'd be more likely to say something along the line of "you thick fash bastards" if I was on my own. Then probably backed down pretty darn quick, because I'm a limp-wristed commie fag (and, of course, I don't have a big group of like-minded meatheads to back me up)

[benjii]

To be honest, EDL's first album was pretty shallow and they've gone downhill from there.

[dune]

i didn't watch Question Time the other week, so i cannot comment on anything relating to it....what i DO want to say however is aimed at the chavvy little scrotes who were drinking outside the pub (i forget it's name now) in Bethnal Green today......(i am posting this on here as i didn't want to poison the feel-good factor of the Orient post-match thread.

 

i politely request that you f*ck right off away from decent Saints fans if you want to chant at the tops of your voices "B.N.P. , B.N.P".!!

WTF has THAT got to do with supporting OUR football team??

i don't want to hear that sh1t being bellowed out, like some kind of war-cry, so that passers-by then associate MY football team with being a racist bunch of seeyounexttuesdays!!........you just make yourselves look complete c8cks and embarrass the rest of us who actually HAVE more than 2 brain cells to rub together!....

if you think it's THAT clever and that you have every right to do it then stand up for your beliefs and all 15 of ya go and walk through the streets of Brixton and do it, rather than staying in the relative safety of fellow fans and numerous police officers......

 

Football supporters are generally young, white, and working class. It's this section of society that has suffered the most under the Socialists so it is hardly surprising that they feel angry. Blair deliberately opened up our borders to import fresh Socialist voters without any consideration for the native unskilled workers who have seen their standard of living drop as a direct result. Couple that with Prudence Browns mismanagement of the economy and we have rising unemployment and resentment. When we get a Conservative government back the damage can begin to be fixed, but 12 years of Socialism is not mended overnight and it'll take many years for this country to mend Broken Britain.

[miserableoldgit]

The problem is that if/when the Conservatives get in, it will make very little difference. This country swings between Red and Blue on a regular basis. Surely we all remember 1997 when people were sick to death of the Tories and New Labour were going to be the answer? The only difference is this time it`s Red to Blue when last time it was Blue to Red. Its a cycle that we can`t, for many reasons, get out of. All of the "major" parties are full of self seeking MP`s who only priorities are feathering their nests and doing and saying whatever they need to do to hold on to power. I am heartily sick to death of the "Yah-Boo" politics that we have to put up with in this country, where the well being of the ordinary people seems to be at the bottom of the list of priorities. Something needs to be done to break the mould. I don`t pretend to know how this is going to happen or who is going to do it. Turning to extremism, either left or right isn`t the answer (but could be a result) but a return to the values of common sense, coupled with fair-play for all may be a start. I won`t hold my breath waiting though.

Edited 2 November, 2009 by miserableoldgit

[Joensuu]

What is all this talk of Socialists? We have been governed for the past 12 years by a nasty conservative party dressed in red, and are about to be governed by another identical nasty party dressed in blue.

[greg_hill]

@Verbal

 

Are you a Muslim, Verbal? If not, you put yourself in a paradox because you state that the Koran is unintelligible then go on to tell me what it does or doesn't say. If you are a Muslim, you are spiritually trapped into denying the truth, if you're not, your argument is a non-sequitar.

 

I have read The Koran in its entirety once and also parts of some Sirahs, I am not an expert and I can't quote you verses from memorey but I have read and understood it and have notes on it. Feel free to ask sensible questions about that.

 

The idea that it is unintelligible, too spiritual, layden with hidden meaning, etc. is nonsense propagated by people who do not want to subject it to criticism because they fear doing so. You say only Muslims can understand it, how so? If I convert to Islam, do I gain some magical insight as I read the book? I would argue I can understand it better than most because I approached it with an open mind, not bound by faith.

 

It does not tell people to spread 'Sharia Law' but it does tell them to spread the word of Muhammed, which we now recognise as Islam, which, in turn, is now Sharia Law.

 

Verses 9:5 and 9:123 are the first two examples I can find.

 

Regarding Indonesia, it is more open and tolerant than most Islamic countries, that is true. The law is not directly Sharia, it's true. However the fundamental laws and values spring from Sharia and Indonesia has been heading back towards fundamentalist Islamic law for some time. A poll of 8,000 randomly selected Indonesians found forty percent favoured chopping the hand off of a thief.

 

If you don't mind, I'd rather not get more in depth on the BNP debate because I may be perceived as defending them. I will then be dragged to Salem and dunked until I drown. If anyone cares, I support a small party called Popular Alliance that welcomes members of any ethnic type or nationality who support traditional, Peter Hitchens and Daily Mail type values :-)

 

 

Bear in mind I've only got three posts per day (I can't sign up from here in Asia) so my replies may be a little delayed.

[benjii]

If anyone cares, I support a small party called Popular Alliance that welcomes members of any ethnic type or nationality who support traditional, Peter Hitchens and Daily Mail type values :-)

 

So, sort of a common sense mandate but with the words, "evil", "despicable" and "wretched" preceding those with a different view?

 

Only joshing. Good post.

[JackFrost]

Sitting next to Nick Griffin on the show was Jack Straw. That would be Jack Straw from Labour, the party which actively pursued, created faked documents for, told lies in support of and signed off billions of pounds for a war in Iraq. A war that killed thousand of innocents including women and children, created misery nd pain, racial hatred, opportunities for western countries to commit economic rape, and destroyed liberty for thousands of Muslims. When one good man tried to tell the truth about it, they pressured him so much it drove him to suicide.

 

Yet here we are demonising the bloke sat next to him.

 

I have an Asian wife and mixed race kids, I don't support the BNP and I am well aware of the truths and lies about them, but I find it sad that we get things out of proportion simply by using tags such as 'racist' and 'fascist' (the latter is a term rarely understood or studied by those who use it) to demonise people. The show itself was a farce. The BBC obviously felt intimidated by the pressure groups who take it upon themselves to decide what the rest of us are allowed to see (all in the name of 'anti'-fascism, of course) but could not lose face by dropping Griffin altogether. So, they allowed the show to become a circus. At one point they asked Griffin three questions in a row then when he tried to answer one, Dimbley spoke over him and asked for the next question! What kind of 'Question Time' is that?!

 

 

Now onto Islam. Someone on here has written a piece basically equating Wahbisim with the 'down' side of Islam nd implying the rest is better. Well I've actually taken the time to read The Koran (so many apologists have not, they prefer to take a moral high ground rather than do the actual hard work) and I can't agree.

 

To be sure, most Muslims are good people. I work with Muslims and have Muslims friends. However, the religion per se is not good. Sharia Law is not good. The Koran has a whole lot of verses that should be massive cause for concern. These include anti-semitism, violence against those who leave Islam ,strong chavanisma nd numerous violent verses. Apologists will often point out that The Bible has similar problems. The reply is twofold: first, The Bible has a lot less, second, we live in a relatively secular west. We may derive our laws from Christianity but we have adapted and progressed them. Islamic societies treat the Koran as their constitution, it is, literally, the word of law. We should engage in a very careful discussion with Islamic groups in the west to ensure that Sharia Law is rejected and nobody seeks to impose out in the west. The Koran does tell its followers to spread Sharia Law.

 

A very accurate post.

 

Although strictly speaking unless you're a fluent Arabic speaker you haven't read the Koran.

 

As Muslims don't regard a translation of the Koran a Koran, because of the Arabic language complexity and sacredness, it shows how strict Islam is.

 

Besides, as someone pointed out on here, the biggest danger is the western world's ignorance of Islam. I'm sure for instance that a lot of people in this country will ignore the fact that the Muslim Council of Britain openly condemned the rally by that sect that was calling for Sharia Law to be enforced in this country.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Football supporters are generally young, white, and working class. It's this section of society that has suffered the most under the Socialists so it is hardly surprising that they feel angry. Blair deliberately opened up our borders to import fresh Socialist voters without any consideration for the native unskilled workers who have seen their standard of living drop as a direct result. Couple that with Prudence Browns mismanagement of the economy and we have rising unemployment and resentment. When we get a Conservative government back the damage can begin to be fixed, but 12 years of Socialism is not mended overnight and it'll take many years for this country to mend Broken Britain.

 

 

It always makes me laugh that 'New' Labour are referred to as Socialists. Dear o dear, anyway, the Tories will have a tough job on their hands from countless unions me thinks if reading the latest copy of my NASUWT/NUT newsletter is anything to go by.

[JackFrost]

It always makes me laugh that 'New' Labour are referred to as Socialists. Dear o dear, anyway, the Tories will have a tough job on their hands from countless unions me thinks if reading the latest copy of my NASUWT/NUT newsletter is anything to go by.

 

Exactly,

 

New Labour and the Conservatives are exactly the same. Only a party that favours the rich will get in because the rich own the media.

 

Cameron is Blair part 2, no policies and too good at the PR for his own good.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Exactly,

 

New Labour and the Conservatives are exactly the same. Only a party that favours the rich will get in because the rich own the media.

 

Cameron is Blair part 2, no policies and too good at the PR for his own good.

 

Which is why us 'Old Labour' voters are feeling so disenfranchised.

[Saint George]

heh ....love the irony of this lol.........http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224711/Muslim-racially-abused-Nick-Griffin-threatened-shoot-him.html

[EastleighSoulBoy]

heh ....love the irony of this lol.........http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224711/Muslim-racially-abused-Nick-Griffin-threatened-shoot-him.html

 

Quite a journalist,TBH. Managed to get BNP and 'peaceful demonstration' into the one sentence!

[greg_hill]

A very accurate post.

 

Although strictly speaking unless you're a fluent Arabic speaker you haven't read the Koran.

 

As Muslims don't regard a translation of the Koran a Koran, because of the Arabic language complexity and sacredness, it shows how strict Islam is.

 

Besides, as someone pointed out on here, the biggest danger is the western world's ignorance of Islam. I'm sure for instance that a lot of people in this country will ignore the fact that the Muslim Council of Britain openly condemned the rally by that sect that was calling for Sharia Law to be enforced in this country.

 

You're right of course, but this is another convenient twist for people who wish to defend Islam from a dishonest perspective. They do indeed use the argument that The Koran must be read in Paleo Arabic. This presents two main problems: first, that form of Arabic is no more contemporary than Shakespearean English. Secondly, so many Muslims now are not Arabic speakers, yet if we were to suggest they were not true Muslims because they haven't 'read' The Koran, we'd be demonised.

 

I said I would not discuss the BNP any more for fear of appearing to favour them but I must say this: their membership list apparently contained some 15,000 names. Now, given that the media love nothing more than a story of violence or wrongdoing by celebrities or politicians or especially BNP "supporters" I would think it would be easy to track down any scandals or episodes of violence involving them. Yet I'll bet that the ratio of BNP supporters found to commit some terrible act is no higher than any other group in society, including, say Chinese people (my wife is half Chinese) . Yet if we seized on a stabbing committed by a Chinese person and said: "Look, another Chinese person acting like a thug!" we'd quite rightly be accused of bigoted, narrow minded discrimination.

 

For some reason, it's OK to take a minority of BNP people and tarnish the rest of them as the same, but it's not OK to do that for gender types, racial types or religious types.

[Ponty]

For some reason, it's OK to take a minority of BNP people and tarnish the rest of them as the same, but it's not OK to do that for gender types, racial types or religious types.

 

Correct.

[Sheaf Saint]

For some reason, it's OK to take a minority of BNP people and tarnish the rest of them as the same, but it's not OK to do that for gender types, racial types or religious types.

 

I take your point, but I must disagree. The BNP was founded by a group of people with a history of violence and therefore anybody who joins the BNP, through choice, understands that they will inevitably be seen as guilty by association. You say your wife is Chinese? Well then she is so by an accident of birth, and it is something over which she had no control, therefore it would be completely wrong to tar her with the same brush as Chairman Mao for instance. But people can choose whether or not to associate themselves with political parties like the BNP, and they should therefore understand the consequences if they do.

 

In reality, your comparison cannot be drawn.

[Verbal]

Now, given that the media love nothing more than a story of violence or wrongdoing by celebrities or politicians or especially BNP "supporters" I would think it would be easy to track down any scandals or episodes of violence involving them. Yet I'll bet that the ratio of BNP supporters found to commit some terrible act is no higher than any other group in society, including, say Chinese people (my wife is half Chinese) . Yet if we seized on a stabbing committed by a Chinese person and said: "Look, another Chinese person acting like a thug!" we'd quite rightly be accused of bigoted, narrow minded discrimination.

 

For some reason, it's OK to take a minority of BNP people and tarnish the rest of them as the same, but it's not OK to do that for gender types, racial types or religious types.

 

Easy to track down? Well, yes actually.

 

David Enderby, BNP councillor in Redditch, West Midlands, was found guilty of three counts of assault in January 2007.

 

Kevin Hughes David Enderby's agent in the elections sentenced to three to months in prison for racially aggravated common assault in May 2006. 

·

 

Brian Wainwright The BNP Parliamentary candidate for Hull in the May 2005 General Election pleaded guilty in January 2007 after a campaign of hate mail against the local mosque, a Muslim councillor and a local anti-fascist activist. A letter in which he claimed, "Muslim blood will be spilt" included 'SS' skull and cross bones imagery.

 

Mark Bulman BNP activist in Swindon sentenced to five years in January 2007 after attempting to firebomb a local mosque using a BNP leaflet as a fuse. He also daubed swastikas and racist graffiti on local shops and businesses that he believed to be 'ethnic'.

 

Brian Turner Burnley BNP councillor In June 2006 he was found guilty of a racially aggravated public order offence. Turner had previous convictions of common assault and police assault after he was convicted of beating up his wife.

 

John Laidlaw In February 2007, he told police he was a BNP member and wanted to kill all black people, was convicted in February 2007 after terrorising London's tube network with a series of shootings. 


 

Nick Griffin (Party Chairman) Received a two-year suspended sentence in April 1998 for inciting racial hatred. His magazine The Rune carried obscene anti-Semitic and Holocaust denial material as well as crude racism.

 

Tony Lecomber (Group Development Officer). In 1985 he was convicted on five counts for offences under the Explosives Act, including possession of homemade hand-grenades and electronic timing devices. Sentenced to three-years imprisonment. 
In 1991 he was sentenced to another three years imprisonment for unlawful wounding for his part in an attack on a Jewish schoolteacher whom he caught trying to peel off a BNP sticker at an underground station. He has a total of 12 convictions.

 

Colin Smith (South East London organiser). Has amassed a total of 17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer.

 

John Tyndall (founder of the BNP). Six convictions. In 1962 he was jailed for organising a paramilitary organisation. Four years later, he was again sent to prison for possession of a loaded gun. In 1986, he was convicted for incitement to racial hatred under the Public Order Act and sentenced to 12 months imprisonment.

 

Warren Bennett (Chief Steward). Supposed to keep order in the party yet has convictions for football hooliganism. In 1998, he was deported from France with over 50 other Scottish hooligans, including several BNP members.

 

Steve Belshaw (East Midlands BNP organiser. Was convicted in 1994 for assaulting a lawyer in his home-town of Mansfield. At the time, Belshaw combined his BNP membership with Combat 18 activity.

 

Kevin Scott (North East Regional Organiser). Was convicted in 1993 for hurling a glass at a black customer in a pub.

 

Alan Gould (Waltham Forest Organiser). Was convicted in 2000 for racially abusing people in a local pub. He told the court that it was the drink getting the better of him.

 

Robert Bennett. A leading activist in Oldham BNP during the 2002 elections campaign, Bennett has served five years in prison for the gang rape of a woman. He has also served seven years for armed robbery and has over 30 convictions in total.

 

Mick Treacy. The Oldham organiser has five convictions for violence, theft, and handling stolen goods

 

Darren Dobson. Found guilty of racially aggravated assault at Oldham magistrates in November 2001. Fined £300. Connected to football hooligans in the Oldham area, and has links to the nazi terror group Combat 18

 

Darren Hoy. April 2002, the BNP supporter was sent to prison for 3 months for racially abusing people as they left an anti-fascist rally in Oldham.

 

Care to reconsider?

[JackFrost]

Easy to track down? Well, yes actually.

 

David Enderby, BNP councillor in Redditch, West Midlands, was found guilty of three counts of assault in January 2007.

 

Kevin Hughes David Enderby's agent in the elections sentenced to three to months in prison for racially aggravated common assault in May 2006. 

·

 

Brian Wainwright The BNP Parliamentary candidate for Hull in the May 2005 General Election pleaded guilty in January 2007 after a campaign of hate mail against the local mosque, a Muslim councillor and a local anti-fascist activist. A letter in which he claimed, "Muslim blood will be spilt" included 'SS' skull and cross bones imagery.

 

Mark Bulman BNP activist in Swindon sentenced to five years in January 2007 after attempting to firebomb a local mosque using a BNP leaflet as a fuse. He also daubed swastikas and racist graffiti on local shops and businesses that he believed to be 'ethnic'.

 

Brian Turner Burnley BNP councillor In June 2006 he was found guilty of a racially aggravated public order offence. Turner had previous convictions of common assault and police assault after he was convicted of beating up his wife.

 

John Laidlaw In February 2007, he told police he was a BNP member and wanted to kill all black people, was convicted in February 2007 after terrorising London's tube network with a series of shootings. 


 

Nick Griffin (Party Chairman) Received a two-year suspended sentence in April 1998 for inciting racial hatred. His magazine The Rune carried obscene anti-Semitic and Holocaust denial material as well as crude racism.

 

Tony Lecomber (Group Development Officer). In 1985 he was convicted on five counts for offences under the Explosives Act, including possession of homemade hand-grenades and electronic timing devices. Sentenced to three-years imprisonment. 
In 1991 he was sentenced to another three years imprisonment for unlawful wounding for his part in an attack on a Jewish schoolteacher whom he caught trying to peel off a BNP sticker at an underground station. He has a total of 12 convictions.

 

Colin Smith (South East London organiser). Has amassed a total of 17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer.

 

John Tyndall (founder of the BNP). Six convictions. In 1962 he was jailed for organising a paramilitary organisation. Four years later, he was again sent to prison for possession of a loaded gun. In 1986, he was convicted for incitement to racial hatred under the Public Order Act and sentenced to 12 months imprisonment.

 

Warren Bennett (Chief Steward). Supposed to keep order in the party yet has convictions for football hooliganism. In 1998, he was deported from France with over 50 other Scottish hooligans, including several BNP members.

 

Steve Belshaw (East Midlands BNP organiser. Was convicted in 1994 for assaulting a lawyer in his home-town of Mansfield. At the time, Belshaw combined his BNP membership with Combat 18 activity.

 

Kevin Scott (North East Regional Organiser). Was convicted in 1993 for hurling a glass at a black customer in a pub.

 

Alan Gould (Waltham Forest Organiser). Was convicted in 2000 for racially abusing people in a local pub. He told the court that it was the drink getting the better of him.

 

Robert Bennett. A leading activist in Oldham BNP during the 2002 elections campaign, Bennett has served five years in prison for the gang rape of a woman. He has also served seven years for armed robbery and has over 30 convictions in total.

 

Mick Treacy. The Oldham organiser has five convictions for violence, theft, and handling stolen goods

 

Darren Dobson. Found guilty of racially aggravated assault at Oldham magistrates in November 2001. Fined £300. Connected to football hooligans in the Oldham area, and has links to the nazi terror group Combat 18

 

Darren Hoy. April 2002, the BNP supporter was sent to prison for 3 months for racially abusing people as they left an anti-fascist rally in Oldham.

 

Care to reconsider?

 

One story that made me laugh was the one about Richard Barnbrook, who stood for London Mayor recently.

 

It was reported he had an affair with a Finnish immigrant

[View From The Top]

Easy to track down? Well, yes actually.

 

David Enderby, BNP councillor in Redditch, West Midlands, was found guilty of three counts of assault in January 2007.

 

Kevin Hughes David Enderby's agent in the elections sentenced to three to months in prison for racially aggravated common assault in May 2006. 

·

 

Brian Wainwright The BNP Parliamentary candidate for Hull in the May 2005 General Election pleaded guilty in January 2007 after a campaign of hate mail against the local mosque, a Muslim councillor and a local anti-fascist activist. A letter in which he claimed, "Muslim blood will be spilt" included 'SS' skull and cross bones imagery.

 

Mark Bulman BNP activist in Swindon sentenced to five years in January 2007 after attempting to firebomb a local mosque using a BNP leaflet as a fuse. He also daubed swastikas and racist graffiti on local shops and businesses that he believed to be 'ethnic'.

 

Brian Turner Burnley BNP councillor In June 2006 he was found guilty of a racially aggravated public order offence. Turner had previous convictions of common assault and police assault after he was convicted of beating up his wife.

 

John Laidlaw In February 2007, he told police he was a BNP member and wanted to kill all black people, was convicted in February 2007 after terrorising London's tube network with a series of shootings. 


 

Nick Griffin (Party Chairman) Received a two-year suspended sentence in April 1998 for inciting racial hatred. His magazine The Rune carried obscene anti-Semitic and Holocaust denial material as well as crude racism.

 

Tony Lecomber (Group Development Officer). In 1985 he was convicted on five counts for offences under the Explosives Act, including possession of homemade hand-grenades and electronic timing devices. Sentenced to three-years imprisonment. 
In 1991 he was sentenced to another three years imprisonment for unlawful wounding for his part in an attack on a Jewish schoolteacher whom he caught trying to peel off a BNP sticker at an underground station. He has a total of 12 convictions.

 

Colin Smith (South East London organiser). Has amassed a total of 17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer.

 

John Tyndall (founder of the BNP). Six convictions. In 1962 he was jailed for organising a paramilitary organisation. Four years later, he was again sent to prison for possession of a loaded gun. In 1986, he was convicted for incitement to racial hatred under the Public Order Act and sentenced to 12 months imprisonment.

 

Warren Bennett (Chief Steward). Supposed to keep order in the party yet has convictions for football hooliganism. In 1998, he was deported from France with over 50 other Scottish hooligans, including several BNP members.

 

Steve Belshaw (East Midlands BNP organiser. Was convicted in 1994 for assaulting a lawyer in his home-town of Mansfield. At the time, Belshaw combined his BNP membership with Combat 18 activity.

 

Kevin Scott (North East Regional Organiser). Was convicted in 1993 for hurling a glass at a black customer in a pub.

 

Alan Gould (Waltham Forest Organiser). Was convicted in 2000 for racially abusing people in a local pub. He told the court that it was the drink getting the better of him.

 

Robert Bennett. A leading activist in Oldham BNP during the 2002 elections campaign, Bennett has served five years in prison for the gang rape of a woman. He has also served seven years for armed robbery and has over 30 convictions in total.

 

Mick Treacy. The Oldham organiser has five convictions for violence, theft, and handling stolen goods

 

Darren Dobson. Found guilty of racially aggravated assault at Oldham magistrates in November 2001. Fined £300. Connected to football hooligans in the Oldham area, and has links to the nazi terror group Combat 18

 

Darren Hoy. April 2002, the BNP supporter was sent to prison for 3 months for racially abusing people as they left an anti-fascist rally in Oldham.

 

Care to reconsider?

 

Doesn't really change what he said though if you actually read what he's written.

 

That really is an odious bunch on that list though.

[Verbal]

Doesn't really change what he said though if you actually read what he's written.

 

That really is an odious bunch on that list though.

 

Well, it does I think. Can you think of any other party or organisation that is made up of such a bunch of violent, no-brows? It's that 'branding' that attracts a very good number of BNP supporters, as EDL demos and BNP rallies have all well illustrated.

 

In any case, I saw that first membership list, and discovered that there was a BNP member three doors from us. Once he'd left, our house and those of other families in the street stopped being targets of racist vandalism. Coincidence? Probably not. I also found that he'd written violently racist posts on extremist websites. He, by the way, was a 'typical member' - not a BNP apparatchik.

 

'Greg Hill' is making a 'bet', based on sweet f**k all.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I take your point, but I must disagree. The BNP was founded by a group of people with a history of violence and therefore anybody who joins the BNP, through choice, understands that they will inevitably be seen as guilty by association. You say your wife is Chinese? Well then she is so by an accident of birth, and it is something over which she had no control, therefore it would be completely wrong to tar her with the same brush as Chairman Mao for instance. But people can choose whether or not to associate themselves with political parties like the BNP, and they should therefore understand the consequences if they do.

 

In reality, your comparison cannot be drawn.

 

Astute and correct.

[View From The Top]

Well, it does I think. Can you think of any other party or organisation that is made up of such a bunch of violent, no-brows?

 

Animal Liberation Front.

[greg_hill]

Well, it does I think. Can you think of any other party or organisation that is made up of such a bunch of violent, no-brows? It's that 'branding' that attracts a very good number of BNP supporters, as EDL demos and BNP rallies have all well illustrated.

 

In any case, I saw that first membership list, and discovered that there was a BNP member three doors from us. Once he'd left, our house and those of other families in the street stopped being targets of racist vandalism. Coincidence? Probably not. I also found that he'd written violently racist posts on extremist websites. He, by the way, was a 'typical member' - not a BNP apparatchik.

 

'Greg Hill' is making a 'bet', based on sweet f**k all.

 

 

Actually the last sentence applies to yourself. With regards to your neighbour, that is a complete non issue since you are basing it on assumption. As a civilised country, we do not convict people based on prejudice.

 

Your list was eighteen people, and you tracked it down from a list compiled by people witha political agenda, in other words it is their best effort. Now the BNP leaked list was some fifteen thousand people, right? Let's take a frugal estimate that half of those people joined the BNP.

Therefore the people (by your own admission, easy to track down) known to be very nasty are eighteen.

 

Eighteen from seven thousand five hundred gives us 0.24%.

 

I dare say that is close to the typical rate for crime amongst Chinese communities, Sikh Communities, taxi drivers, people who post on here or any other group you can care to imagine.

 

Do you think members of Labour or Lib Dem or Tory or Greenpeace have not committed crimes in the same time frame (some of those convictions go back fifteen years)?

 

I think you have really proven my point, even articulate people like you can become unreasonable and fail to analyse things critically when emotions are high.

 

To add, I don't support the BNP because Griffin has made some very nasty comments about the Holocaust, and to judge people purely by their ethnicity is stupid. Being British isn't just about race. I'm sure we all know people of non-white ethnic groups who are afr more English or British than, say, Margaret Hodge.

[greg_hill]

I take your point, but I must disagree. The BNP was founded by a group of people with a history of violence and therefore anybody who joins the BNP, through choice, understands that they will inevitably be seen as guilty by association. You say your wife is Chinese? Well then she is so by an accident of birth, and it is something over which she had no control, therefore it would be completely wrong to tar her with the same brush as Chairman Mao for instance. But people can choose whether or not to associate themselves with political parties like the BNP, and they should therefore understand the consequences if they do.

 

In reality, your comparison cannot be drawn.

 

Actually she's half Chinese and if we lived in the UK (we don't) then it would be by choice or at least family choice, since ethnic Chinese people do not originate from the British Isles. The point I was making is that I doubt the crime rate amongst BNPers is a lot higher than any other random group. You could include, teachers, Man Utd Fans or any other group that involves choice in that analyses.

 

It's interesting that Verbal did not actually respond to my argument. I made the point about ratios, but he totally ignored that and simply pasted some list he found on the internet, which is a total non-argument when you think about it.

 

Anyway I hope people will understand if I discontinue the BNP arguments now. I don't wish to appear to defend them anymore.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Actually she's half Chinese and if we lived in the UK (we don't) then it would be by choice or at least family choice, since ethnic Chinese people do not originate from the British Isles. The point I was making is that I doubt the crime rate amongst BNPers is a lot higher than any other random group. You could include, teachers, Man Utd Fans or any other group that involves choice in that analyses.

 

It's interesting that Verbal did not actually respond to my argument. I made the point about ratios, but he totally ignored that and simply pasted some list he found on the internet, which is a total non-argument when you think about it.

 

Anyway I hope people will understand if I discontinue the BNP arguments now. I don't wish to appear to defend them anymore.

 

God forbid that we would think you are defending them!

[dune]

Astute and correct.

 

And unfortunate, but the BNP remains the only credible far right party to vote for. If an alternative pops up in the future then of course it'd be preferable.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

And unfortunate, but the BNP remains the only credible far right party to vote for. If an alternative pops up in the future then of course it'd be preferable.

 

I do think that some of the BNP policies carry some weight. However while, in my opinion, 'credibility' and BNP don't sit well together I shall not be placing any of my trust in their abilities.

 

Despite their apparent lack of credibility I shall continue to support the Labour and anti Racist/anti Fascist movements.

[rpb]

And unfortunate, but the BNP remains the only credible far right party to vote for.

 

'Credible' and 'far right' seems a contradiction in terms to me.

[rallyboy]

Dune is correct, if you wish to vote for holocaust-denial, racism and ill-thought out immigration policies based on selective history, they are indeed the boys for you.

 

On this section of the forum, football meets politics, so it is relevant to say that I am happy to support Saints players of any colour or creed if they wear the shirt proudly, I have no wish to campaign against 'people who are different' as the BNP very clearly do.

 

Surely a vote for the BNP is a vote against that foreigner Le Tissier, and of course we would rather go out of business than accept foreign money to save the club....

The lines are very clear.

 

IMO you can't support both the BNP and Saints (or any club) as there are far too many conflicts to sit comfortably, unless you ignore the facts and just go for the convenient policies.

[Verbal]

Dune is correct, if you wish to vote for holocaust-denial, racism and ill-thought out immigration policies based on selective history, they are indeed the boys for you.

 

On this section of the forum, football meets politics, so it is relevant to say that I am happy to support Saints players of any colour or creed if they wear the shirt proudly, I have no wish to campaign against 'people who are different' as the BNP very clearly do.

 

Surely a vote for the BNP is a vote against that foreigner Le Tissier, and of course we would rather go out of business than accept foreign money to save the club....

The lines are very clear.

 

IMO you can't support both the BNP and Saints (or any club) as there are far too many conflicts to sit comfortably, unless you ignore the facts and just go for the convenient policies.

 

(A non-religious) Amen to that.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Dune is correct, if you wish to vote for holocaust-denial, racism and ill-thought out immigration policies based on selective history, they are indeed the boys for you.

 

On this section of the forum, football meets politics, so it is relevant to say that I am happy to support Saints players of any colour or creed if they wear the shirt proudly, I have no wish to campaign against 'people who are different' as the BNP very clearly do.

 

Surely a vote for the BNP is a vote against that foreigner Le Tissier, and of course we would rather go out of business than accept foreign money to save the club....

The lines are very clear.

 

IMO you can't support both the BNP and Saints (or any club) as there are far too many conflicts to sit comfortably, unless you ignore the facts and just go for the convenient policies.

 

Indeed! You can't support a political party because 'some of it's policies are OK'. In supporting any party you, voluntarily or not, embrace all it's dogma.

 

Which, maybe, I should have been more clear about in my previous comment!

[aintforever]

Indeed! You can't support a political party because 'some of it's policies are OK'. In supporting any party you, voluntarily or not, embrace all it's dogma.

 

Which, maybe, I should have been more clear about in my previous comment!

 

To be fair I doubt all Labour voters agree with warmongering in the Middle East.

 

I generally vote Lib Dem because they are the only main party serious about the environment, most of their other policies I am dead against.

 

Likewise I expect 90% of BNP voters are not racist but just voted for them because no other party are tough enough on immigration. In fact if that is your main concern then a vote for BNP gets your point across much better than a vote for any of the other parties. Just like if the Greens get shed loads of votes the main parties will shift their policies in that direction to get more votes.

Edited 4 November, 2009 by aintforever

[EastleighSoulBoy]

To be fair I doubt all Labour voters agree with warmongering in the Middle East.

 

I generally vote Lib Dem because they are the only main party serious about the environment, most of their other policies I am dead against.

 

Likewise I expect 90% of BNP voters are not racist but just voted for them because no other party are tough enough on immigration. In fact if that is your main concern then a vote for BNP gets your point across much better than a vote for any of the other parties. Just like if the Greens get shed loads of votes the main parties will shift their policies in that direction to get more votes.

 

A fair point, which I had expected to be made (prior to your edit). As a Labour supporter I don't find much about my party that currently fills me with pride but at least i can fight for change from within. something which I fear I'd not be able to do from within the BNP!

[View From The Top]

Indeed! You can't support a political party because 'some of it's policies are OK'. In supporting any party you, voluntarily or not, embrace all it's dogma.

 

I don't agree with that.

 

I'm red, in tooth and claw, like you but that doesn't mean I supported the war in Iraq nor many other of the current/recent policies.

 

There are people, without a doubt, who have voted BNP as they have issues with current immigration policy, not because thay actually agree with BNP policies. It's a protest vote aimed at giving the mainstream parties a kick up the backside.

 

I voted Liberal at the Euro elections, not because I wanted them to win but because I wanted the Labour party to understand that I/we were unhappy with the direction they've taken.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I don't agree with that.

 

I'm red, in tooth and claw, like you but that doesn't mean I supported the war in Iraq nor many other of the current/recent policies.

 

There are people, without a doubt, who have voted BNP as they have issues with current immigration policy, not because thay actually agree with BNP policies. It's a protest vote aimed at giving the mainstream parties a kick up the backside.

 

I voted Liberal at the Euro elections, not because I wanted them to win but because I wanted the Labour party to understand that I/we were unhappy with the direction they've taken.

 

My point is that when I vote to get Labour into power I get all the bits I don't agree with about Labour into the bargain. So while I support most of the social care policies of Labour I don't like the idea of them going into what I feel was an unjust war.

 

Now, I cannot go into a polling booth and start listing what I'm for or against. I get just one mark to make so I have to 'embrace' that party's policies as one.

 

It doesn't mean I have to like them! I actually do have issues with current immigration policy but I am sure as hell not going to vote BNP purely because of that!

[View From The Top]

My point is that when I vote to get Labour into power I get all the bits I don't agree with about Labour into the bargain. So while I support most of the social care policies of Labour I don't like the idea of them going into what I feel was an unjust war.

 

Now, I cannot go into a polling booth and start listing what I'm for or against. I get just one mark to make so I have to 'embrace' that party's policies as one.

 

It doesn't mean I have to like them! I actually do have issues with current immigration policy but I am sure as hell not going to vote BNP purely because of that!

 

I liken the BNP to the NF in France.

 

The NF were a protest party under Le Pen and when they actually looked like getting true power the electorate destroyed them.

 

There is no chance of the BNP gaining a seat in Westminster, let alone power, but many disenfranchised voters want to register a protest and the BNP currently offers them that choice.

[Wiltshire Saint]

I generally vote Lib Dem because they are the only main party serious about the environment, most of their other policies I am dead against.

 

Indeed, an excellent point. I voted for the BNP last election because I found their stance on welfare impressive. I am dead against all the other stuff, like the racism and whatnot, but what the hell, you can't have it all can you?

[dune]

I vote BNP because i support their stance on immigration. As for their other policies then who cares? Essentially all the BNP are is a focus group much like the Green Party party is a focus group. Neither party will ever gain power, but events such as the election of Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons brings the issue of immigration into the spotlight. Politicians from all the main parties, but more so the Socialists, are outraged that the electorate dare to vote for the BNP and this attitude also hardens my resolve to continue to vote for them.

[bungle]

I vote BNP because i support their stance on immigration. As for their other policies then who cares? Essentially all the BNP are is a focus group much like the Green Party party is a focus group. Neither party will ever gain power, but events such as the election of Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons brings the issue of immigration into the spotlight. Politicians from all the main parties, but more so the Socialists, are outraged that the electorate dare to vote for the BNP and this attitude also hardens my resolve to continue to vote for them.

 

You have a point, I don't care about their other policies either. That is because they are a vile, racist party who preach hatred and violence. If you vote for them, you support hatred, violence and racism. There are no two ways about it. They are disgusting people.

[Thedelldays]

You have a point, I don't care about their other policies either. That is because they are a vile, racist party who preach hatred and violence. If you vote for them, you support hatred, violence and racism. There are no two ways about it. They are disgusting people.

 

 

just like saying if you vote labour you vote for death and destruction of iraq

[Sheaf Saint]

just like saying if you vote labour you vote for death and destruction of iraq

 

Stupid comparison really, seeing as the planned invasion of Iraq was not part of their election manifesto. I'm sure if it had been in there then a lot of people would have chosen not to vote for them.

[TopGun]

just like saying if you vote labour you vote for death and destruction of iraq

 

Ridiculous analogy from TDD.

[miserableoldgit]

So to sum up.

 

Most people don't like the BNP and a few people do.

 

Can this be closed now?

Have you ever thought about joining a Debating Society??

[dune]

You have a point, I don't care about their other policies either. That is because they are a vile, racist party who preach hatred and violence. If you vote for them, you support hatred, violence and racism. There are no two ways about it. They are disgusting people.

 

As oposed to the Labour lot that put feathering their own nests before any principles.

 

Take John Denham, the "comunities secretary". This is the man that attacks the BNP at every opportunity yet had no quarms about handing in an expenses claim totalling £87,729 between 2004/5 and 2007/8 – including£1,590 for two armchairs, £475 for an “Alana” rug and £474 for six kitchen chairs.

 

As far as i'm concerned Denham and his Ilk are in no position to lecture the electorate.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

As oposed to the Labour lot that put feathering their own nests before any principles.

 

Take John Denham, the "comunities secretary". This is the man that attacks the BNP at every opportunity yet had no quarms about handing in an expenses claim totalling £87,729 between 2004/5 and 2007/8 – including£1,590 for two armchairs, £475 for an “Alana” rug and £474 for six kitchen chairs.

 

As far as i'm concerned Denham and his Ilk are in no position to lecture the electorate.

 

You seem to have conveniently omitted the Tories?

 

As yet, though, I can't find much about any of their (Tory or Labour) MPs and party hierarchy being involved in or promoting racial hatred or violence based on that type of idealogy.

 

Something the BNP seem quite adept at, in fact at times excelling at it!

[View From The Top]

You have a point, I don't care about their other policies either. That is because they are a vile, racist party who preach hatred and violence. If you vote for them, you support hatred, violence and racism. There are no two ways about it. They are disgusting people.

 

Which doesn't alter the fact that a large number of people vote for them as a form of protest against the mainstream parties.

[View From The Top]

I've been reading a report today that in Stoke-On-Trent the BNP is expected to increase its support by 50%, up to 18% of the electorate.

 

The reasons for the increase is stated as:

 

1) The BNP councilors have done as they have said they would in certain neighbourhoods in terms on ensuring extra police, rubbish removal etc.

 

2) It is a direct reponse to more radical Muslim groups attempting to recruit in and around the Shelton area.

 

Their heartland is in "traditional" working class, Labour, neighbourhoods.

[aintforever]

Stupid comparison really, seeing as the planned invasion of Iraq was not part of their election manifesto. I'm sure if it had been in there then a lot of people would have chosen not to vote for them.

 

Wrong, Labour have been voted in since the start of the Iraq war so their policy of butchering thousands of innocents for more oil was well known to the electorate.