Lowe - one of the UK's worst ever chairmen?

[Dark Munster]

Welcome back Frank

 

As a renowned anti Lowe poster I will say one positive thing about him.

 

I think he actually cared about his shares in Southampton FC.

 

He just wasn't capable of thinking he was ever wrong.

 

A lot worse chairmen than him have graced football however - Wilde for one. Also football is littered with Chairmen in it for themselves with an eye to make money out of their clubs. For all his faults Lowe was not one of them.

 

I am still very grateful he is no longer involved however.

 

There, I've corrected it for you FF. :cool:

[fos1]

On 16th May 1999 Graham Souness was at the Everton game and was pleased to see that Rupurt Lowe had "changed.....He now understood what was at stake for Southampton. He has become a passionate football man...."

 

Ron, I bumped into Graham a few weeks ago in a Restaurant in Fordingbridge, his words "Lowe should stick to his first love pig farming and hockey " a few other choice words that cannot be repeated !!! from what he said to me his opinion of Lowe had not changed from the day he walked out of Lowes office !! He did say that he thought we had a very bright future with the new owners coming in like a breath of fresh air, now that Lowe had gone !!!

[Frank's cousin]

See, I actually am inclined to agree with this line. Although, he did take out £3million of course.

 

He probably did love Saints and he probably tried his best... I agree with that. But, goodness me it shows how poor he was if his best was relegation by 2 leagues and administration.

 

The only thing wrong with this statement is:

 

It fails to take into account the manager at the time - Lowe simply cant win with some folk - eg He brought in Redknap - and although we had kept wigley on way too long there was still plenty of time to get safe if 'arry was as good as teh media and 'arry thinks he is. He was utter ****e with us, coming out with all sorts of demotivating tripe publically. The players underperformed as well. Had redknapp kept us up, would you say that was a masterstroke by Lowe, or the brilliance of Harry? I know that with many fans all the credit would have gone to Harry, yet as he failed, it was not his failure, but Lowe's.

 

The popular misconception on here is that I somehow want to defend Lowe in some blinkered trance... I dont, I have no need to, he is history and we have a brighter future, and when he was here, I would readily acknowledge his failures and mistakes, but I just find the one sided view, the totally illogiocal blinkered perspective that anything bad at the club during Lowe's time was 100% directly attributed to him, and anything good that happened at the time was down to someone else and in no way down to anything Lowe did, so blatently ignorant, that it it winds me up no end. Its pure and utter ****** and I suspect you know it too.

 

Lowe fecked up, with a series of blunders and errors that CONTRIBUTED to our demise, but he did also try an run teh club within its means when in the prem, much to the annoyance of some managers such as Souness, possibly WGS as well, and at the time obviously fans. Fast forward and had In partricular Wilde and Crouch taken the same stance, we may still have been relegated again, but admin could have been avoided.

 

I know football fans in general are not renowned for their intelligence, but its this sort of stubborn refusal to look beyond the headlines that does nothing to dispel that myth...

[Foxstone]

Welcome back Frank

 

As a renowned anti Lowe poster I will say one positive thing about him.

 

I think he actually cared about Southampton FC.

 

He just wasn't capable of thinking he was ever wrong.

 

A lot worse chairmen than him have graced football however - Wilde for one. Also football is littered with Chairmen in it for themselves with an eye to make money out of their clubs. For all his faults Lowe was not one of them.

 

I am still very grateful he is no longer involved however.

 

Now I agree with that Duncan - Wilde for me was considerably worse than Rupert in terms of capability.

While Lowe had plans ( some of them hair brained I grant you) but he did have some..

 

Wilde was living in his fantasy world of being the populist chairman where in essence he had no clue at all!

[Frank's cousin]

There, I've corrected it for you FF. :cool:

 

I am sure he did care about his shares... as anyone would, probably alot more than some such as Lawrie who is believed to have sold his early doors.. but thats another debate.

 

I do however agree with you that the perception he gave in not renewing Pearson's contracts was one of petty sniping at Crouch (and possibly Lawrie Mac - whose agent son helped on the deal) -This wasa huge blunder by Lowe, because irrespective of his personal thoughts on teh merits of teh Dutch experiement, in one single stroke he alienated even the tiniest bit of good will he may have been able to build during a joint tenure with Wilde. The Pearson appointment and the subsequent relegation survival had given us some optimism, albeit against a backdrop of poor cost control during that season.

 

Crouch - being a fan - I suspect felt that avoiding relegation was most important thing, and I suspect was also not prepared to cull the squad to get us back on budget - I am sure it was well intentioned not wishing to be seen in interfering with the playing side of things, but after Wilde's wild spending, we needed a very firm hand to bring things back under control, and I dont think he wanted to be seen as the villian controlling the purse strings to the detriment of the team (that was how fans viewed Lowe)

 

As a result it opened the the share price was tumbling and Wilde could see the value of his investmnet ebbing away. Having fallen out with Crouch previously, CRouch left himself exposed on two fronts... the continued losses did not seem to be being stemed, and his 10% without Wilde's support made his position very weak... and we know what followed.

 

Lowe's decison to cull teh squad and go with the kids was based on finance. But even with loaning out certain high earners, still paying a % of their wages and their overheads did nothing to stem the tide - we were fecked with teh contracts we had in place and when no one wanted some of these players the writing was on the wall. Lowe compounded this with getting rid of Pearson -probably his biggest blunder that season. I still maintain i can see the logic in trying a dutch academy transition system given our position, but it was naive to think it could be up and working in a tough devision such as the CCC quick enough to avoid the relegation Nightmare. Had He kept Pearson and played the high earners would we have survived? who knows but we probably would have done - we may have gone into admin, but been in a position to avoid the the drop even or even the additional income to come the following year may have given us more time with the banks... who knows. Yes admin has brought about a positive change but it did wipe ou those shareholders investments - woudl you or I not try and avoid that to, if it was our money?

 

Its all Ifs and Buts and Maybes and thankfully we now have a business that will be self sustaining and debt free - a new start, the irony is surely not lost that this was only possible because of those sequence of events ;-)

[John B]

Now I agree with that Duncan - Wilde for me was considerably worse than Rupert in terms of capability.

While Lowe had plans ( some of them hair brained I grant you) but he did have some..

 

Wilde was living in his fantasy world of being the populist chairman where in essence he had no clue at all!

 

I agree but I think he was right in that the club could not go forward in the way it was functioning under Lowe without a serious amount of investment.

 

Lots of fans said we should have invested after 2003 which was probably a correct call as the team especially the defence were ageing but that was not realistic as the club did not really have the neccessary financial clout

 

Wilde tried but failed to get the investment which contributed to us going into Adminisitration.

 

Now thanks to Administration we have a wealthy owner no mortgage on the stadium ( which could be said to be a £30 m investment in itself) and hopefully a bright future so despite all the frustration of the last few years he may have accidently caused the club to prosper again.

Edited 22 October, 2009 by John B

[Frank's cousin]

Now I agree with that Duncan - Wilde for me was considerably worse than Rupert in terms of capability.

While Lowe had plans ( some of them hair brained I grant you) but he did have some..

 

Wilde was living in his fantasy world of being the populist chairman where in essence he had no clue at all!

 

Its the difficulty of being a chairman and what I was alluding to in an earlier post:

 

If successful on the pitch - the chairman can be an ignorant, stupid, mindless, crazy fecker as he likes... we wont care. Its only when things dont work out that we start to analyse all those charater traits, many of which are irrelevent... secondly Ideas are always seen positively when they work, and negatively when they dont... the result is all that matters. BUt that should NOT distract from the quality or logic of an idea in the first place:

 

There is a sound and rational argument for involving other sports people with proven records in the game, developing a commercially viable academy to create a conveyor belt of talent for the first team AND as a revenue stream, or even employing a coaching set up that is in theory skilled in that system... but many rational ideas fail because of poor implementation, timing and just bad luck...

 

But I agree Wilde did seem to be more concerned about the image than anything else?

[Weston Saint]

That may have been true at some time, but I think it was no longer true when he came back the second time. Getting rid of Pearson showed that he cared more about getting back at his arch nemesis Crouch than he did about Saints. And I certainly don't buy the argument that he had no choice in the timing of administration. If he cared about Saints he would have clarified the situation with Barclays earlier (knowing we were on the brink), and then (knowing it was inevitable) ensured it happened a few days earlier. I have my theories why he let it happen after the deadline, but I don't want to be libelous.

 

In an interview afterward Saints came out of administration, Fry said that RL and MW wanted to stay on during administration, and he (Fry) had difficulties convincing them otherwise. I wonder how long that took, and if these discussions started before the 10 point carry-over deadline?

You are entitled to your opinion, I just think you are wide of the mark.

[Frank's cousin]

But I think he was right in that the club could not go forward in the way it was functioning under Lowe without a serious amount of investment.

 

Lots of fans said we should have invested after 2003 which was probably a correct call as the team especially the defence were ageing but that was not realistic as the club did not really have the neccessary financial clout

 

Wilde tried but failed to get the investment which contributed to us going into Adminisitration.

 

Now thanks to Administration we have a wealthy owner no mortgage on the stadium ( which could be said to be a £30 m investment in itself) and hopefully a bright future so despite all the frustration of the last few years he may have accidently caused the club to prosper again.

 

Agreed.. This is part of the problem we were in. We had a successful season, a good manger who recognised we would not progress (or even maintain that level) without serious investment. I Think most would acknowledge that. Fans and Mangers sometimes think its just a simple case of teh board releasing funds for transfers and wages to attract the next level of player.... and if the money is there it is! Our problem is that we were running the club within its means so it was not without an almost equivilent level of player sales. Never going to go down well with managers or fans who see this simplistically as a lack of support for the man in charge of the team... which is wrongly endoresed when managers leave stating anger at not being able to take the team forward without said investment.

 

NO one has told me to date where that investment was going to come form in 2003... despite the repeated calls at the time to spend spend spend...

 

Wilde did just that... in a blatent attempt to win the propoganda battle - Lowe and his cronies had nolfolk 'n' chance - who was ging to listen to anyone who said teh best way to progress is developing our our talent as we cant afford to buy big names vs someone who says I have loads of guys waiting to pump money in as soon as I ma in charge and we will spend it on the first team...which he did, just did not bring in the 7 mil his manifesto promised... Crouch for me was almost too much of a fan, but also his ego would not have let him make tose decsions that would make him unpopular - sales and loans and cut backs - that was his contribution.

 

A sorry tale, ofmishaps, mistakes and and ego driven decision making. None of them evil, none of them without some degree of passion in what they were doing, but all ultimately contributing to the mess...

[Weston Saint]

Ron, I bumped into Graham a few weeks ago in a Restaurant in Fordingbridge, his words "Lowe should stick to his first love pig farming and hockey " a few other choice words that cannot be repeated !!! from what he said to me his opinion of Lowe had not changed from the day he walked out of Lowes office !! He did say that he thought we had a very bright future with the new owners coming in like a breath of fresh air, now that Lowe had gone !!!

Well he changed his mind again because the quote I put up was from "In That Number". Not suprised he has reverted to his original thoughts though and he is far from alone on changing his opinion back to his original thoughts. Hope all is well with you.

[Weston Saint]

Now I agree with that Duncan - Wilde for me was considerably worse than Rupert in terms of capability.

While Lowe had plans ( some of them hair brained I grant you) but he did have some..

 

Wilde was living in his fantasy world of being the populist chairman where in essence he had no clue at all!

Wilde fully accepted he did not have a clue when he came in. That is why he bought in what he was told by Vantis (sp) was an experienced football board. His gripe is they then shafted him although they will say he shafted them by not bringing in the promised investment.

 

I have to be careful believing what he says after he shafted the SOS group but he was sincere about his lack of experience (he wanted to learn the business) because it is evidenced by his dealings and actions!

[Foxstone]

Wilde fully accepted he did not have a clue when he came in. That is why he bought in what he was told by Vantis (sp) was an experienced football board. His gripe is they then shafted him although they will say he shafted them by not bringing in the promised investment.

 

I have to be careful believing what he says after he shafted the SOS group but he was sincere about his lack of experience (he wanted to learn the business) because it is evidenced by his dealings and actions!

 

And that was quickly displayed following his hasty arrival and subsequent hasty and unceremonious defenestration by Hone.

 

I remain convinced that all he wanted was glory and to put himself in the shop window as the " Dear Leader"!

 

But he could not and did not add anything to the club at a time when it needed an experienced and canny leader - And many of our problems between the summer of 2006 and Markus' takeover this summer were down to his ineptitude in that early spell.

[krissyboy31]

NO one has told me to date where that investment was going to come form in 2003... despite the repeated calls at the time to spend spend spend...

 

 

The trouble is Frank, I don't think we were actually looking for outside investment then. It would have been the easiest period to sell the idea to outside investors because of what we'd achieved to date, sold out stadium and the basis of a really good team. Rupert knew that anyone coming from outside, would mean the erosion of his power-base, if not the termination of it all together and AT THAT TIME a big-wig within the Premier League, he was never going to let that happen.

 

By the time even RL conceded that outside investment was not only desirable, but essential, our downward spiral had long since started going out of control and until we hit rock bottom anybody with the money to make a difference, weren't going to touch us with a barge pole.

[ottery st mary]

The trouble is Frank, I don't think we were actually looking for outside investment then. It would have been the easiest period to sell the idea to outside investors because of what we'd achieved to date, sold out stadium and the basis of a really good team. Rupert knew that anyone coming from outside, would mean the erosion of his power-base, if not the termination of it all together and AT THAT TIME a big-wig within the Premier League, he was never going to let that happen.

 

By the time even RL conceded that outside investment was not only desirable, but essential, our downward spiral had long since started going out of control and until we hit rock bottom anybody with the money to make a difference, weren't going to touch us with a barge pole.

 

 

Here you have it in the proverbial nutshell.

 

Erosion of his power base.

Belief that he was Billy Big Bollooox in Prem League and FA.

 

Add to that his EGO and NOT forgetting he was on MASSIVE wages and wot not.

 

Rupert first the Saints a poor second and well the fans......He didn't need us.

 

There are many other sides to Rupert that I could mention but suffice to say

He made his own bed.

[Wes Tender]

The trouble is Frank, I don't think we were actually looking for outside investment then. It would have been the easiest period to sell the idea to outside investors because of what we'd achieved to date, sold out stadium and the basis of a really good team. Rupert knew that anyone coming from outside, would mean the erosion of his power-base, if not the termination of it all together and AT THAT TIME a big-wig within the Premier League, he was never going to let that happen.

 

By the time even RL conceded that outside investment was not only desirable, but essential, our downward spiral had long since started going out of control and until we hit rock bottom anybody with the money to make a difference, weren't going to touch us with a barge pole.

 

I agree entirely. I can recall no evidence at the time that Lowe was shouting from the rooftops that he wanted anybody to put investment into the club. If anybody knows any different, I'd be much obliged if they would post links to anything that disproves it. Therefore, on the face of it, our opinions that he didn't want any serious money invested into us because that would mean the erosion of his power base, has not been challenged by any credible source. Of course, anybody investing a sum larger than the shareholdings of the Lowe clique (about 25%) would not unreasonably want to be chairman himself. At that time, about £12/£13 million would have given a majority shareholding, but the stadium debt and other debt would still have been there. As an investment proposition though, we were well placed in the Premiership in 2003 so that can be balanced against buying us from the administrators without debt, but having to invest in returning us to the Premiership.

[alpine_saint]

Oh super. Frank and his cosy fence-sitting, bending-over-backwards-to-appear-balanced-for-the-sake-of-it-with-whatever-tedious-drivel-is-necessary is back...

 

Oh, well, At least he tries to make an argument, unlike SOGGY.

[John B]

I agree entirely. I can recall no evidence at the time that Lowe was shouting from the rooftops that he wanted anybody to put investment into the club. If anybody knows any different, I'd be much obliged if they would post links to anything that disproves it. Therefore, on the face of it, our opinions that he didn't want any serious money invested into us because that would mean the erosion of his power base, has not been challenged by any credible source. Of course, anybody investing a sum larger than the shareholdings of the Lowe clique (about 25%) would not unreasonably want to be chairman himself. At that time, about £12/£13 million would have given a majority shareholding, but the stadium debt and other debt would still have been there. As an investment proposition though, we were well placed in the Premiership in 2003 so that can be balanced against buying us from the administrators without debt, but having to invest in returning us to the Premiership.

 

 

I am not certain that you are right in your ascertain that Lowe and his mates are power crazy zealots holding on to power just for the sake of it but of course you maybe right although Lowe has lots of other business interests.

 

 

With regard to investment I would like to suggest that in 2003 the Premiership was changing with teams with financial clout being the only ones likely to succeed.

 

 

The only way clubs like us were going to prosper was for us to become a wealthy club by being taken over being a PLC an investor would have had to buy the shares something Lowe could have done nothing about which in fact is what happened with Wilde and Crouch.

 

 

But nobody wanted to do this not even when Lowe left .

 

 

Even when in administration quite by chance were luckily saved by an obscure European businessman.

 

 

Obviously Lowe gets all the blame for appointing suspect managers which obviously had an affect on our relegation but I feel the financial decline of the club was out of his control .

 

 

 

I am happy the way we are at the moment but still wonder how much Markus is prepared to put in of his own money to make SFC a successful Premiership club I think I saw Birmingham maybe getting £50m for transfers

[Wopper]

Here you have it in the proverbial nutshell.

 

Erosion of his power base.

Belief that he was Billy Big Bollooox in Prem League and FA.

 

Add to that his EGO and NOT forgetting he was on MASSIVE wages and wot not.

 

Rupert first the Saints a poor second and well the fans......He didn't need us.

 

There are many other sides to Rupert that I could mention but suffice to say

He made his own bed.

 

I blame his upbringing for his obnoxious personality

[Wes Tender]

I am not certain that you are right in your ascertain that Lowe and his mates are power crazy zealots holding on to power just for the sake of it but of course you maybe right although Lowe has lots of other business interests.

 

Yes, he has other business interests, but none of them had the same effect in raising his profile into the consciousness of the public domain like the Chairmanship of one of the just 20 Premiership clubs did. In fact it must also have assisted greatly his profile in his other business dealings to have his potential customers know that the person that headed those companies was that guy who ran Southampton Football club. The same applied to Askham, Wiseman, Gordon, etc. (as well as Crouch and Wilde)

 

With regard to investment I would like to suggest that in 2003 the Premiership was changing with teams with financial clout being the only ones likely to succeed.

 

The big 4 were almost bound to succeed, but no reason why a middle division club could also not be successful.

 

The only way clubs like us were going to prosper was for us to become a wealthy club by being taken over being a PLC an investor would have had to buy the shares something Lowe could have done nothing about which in fact is what happened with Wilde and Crouch.

Agreed, but the fact that the shareholdings were so fragmented made it difficult and anyway there was no indication that the club was up for sale.

 

But nobody wanted to do this not even when Lowe left.

 

As Krissyboy pointed out, we were no longer such a saleable commodity when we had been relegated from the Premiership.

 

Even when in administration quite by chance were luckily saved by an obscure European businessman.

 

By which time we were a saleable commodity again, as we could be picked up as a bargain basement deal, ridded of all those shareholders, good newish stadium at a bargain price, good fan base potential, etc.

 

Obviously Lowe gets all the blame for appointing suspect managers which obviously had an affect on our relegation but I feel the financial decline of the club was out of his control.

 

The financial decline was exacerbated by the instability caused by the appointment of suspect managers and the alienation of the fan base. These were matters within his control, but he ****ed it up.

 

I am happy the way we are at the moment but still wonder how much Markus is prepared to put in of his own money to make SFC a successful Premiership club I think I saw Birmingham maybe getting £50m for transfers

 

Markus seems to be perfectly willing to invest the sums required to get us up into the division above to begin with. I'm sure that greater investment will be forthcoming when we have a chance of getting from the fizzy pop into the Premiership. Birmingham have the parachute payments, making it worthwhile to plough them into the equation. We blew our chances and wasted them.

[dune]

Rupert Lowe did so much to divide the fanbase of Saints that he should never be forgiven.

 

He was only ever interested in himself and what Rupert could get out of it.

 

His parting shot was to put us into administration just after the cut off point where we could have taken the 10 points on our relegation season. I truely believe this was deliberately done out of spite "it's my ball and if i can't play with it i'm taking it home".

 

A horrible, vile, smug, pompous, arrogant, bombastic, cunning, smarmy, repulsive creature.

[Wopper]

Rupert Lowe did so much to divide the fanbase of Saints that he should never be forgiven.

 

He was only ever interested in himself and what Rupert could get out of it.

 

His parting shot was to put us into administration just after the cut off point where we could have taken the 10 points on our relegation season. I truely believe this was deliberately done out of spite "it's my ball and if i can't play with it i'm taking it home".

 

A horrible, vile, smug, pompous, arrogant, bombastic, cunning, smarmy, repulsive creature.

 

You don't like him then ?

[John B]

Markus seems to be perfectly willing to invest the sums required to get us up into the division above to begin with. I'm sure that greater investment will be forthcoming when we have a chance of getting from the fizzy pop into the Premiership. Birmingham have the parachute payments, making it worthwhile to plough them into the equation. We blew our chances and wasted them.

 

Yes it will be interesting to see what happens when we get to the CCC as we will probably need a completely new team to get us to the Premiership what do you think?

 

The fact that the shareholdings were so fragmented made it difficult and anyway there was no indication that the club was up for sale totally agree the major stumbling block which probably made our demise enivitable.

Edited 22 October, 2009 by John B

[ottery st mary]

I blame his upbringing for his obnoxious personality

 

His Lordship made himself what he is today.......But blame....Down to John B and friends.:smt014

[John B]

His Lordship made himself what he is today.......But blame....Down to John B and friends.:smt014

 

Probably relatively successful compared with lots of posters on here

[ottery st mary]

Probably relatively successful compared with lots of posters on here

 

As Rupes agent....You are not actually the best......If I need an agent for my very sucessful appearances on this marvelous forum....You John will be my very last choice......Back to the pheasant shoot John Boy.

Edited 22 October, 2009 by ottery st mary
spellin as usual

[Gemmel]

Probably relatively successful compared with lots of posters on here

 

At the time of us (SFC) going into administration, one of his other companies R F Webb, wrote to all creditors begging them not to put the company into administration (18 months after they made big redundancies). Additionally his other chairmanship at WH Ireland was posting substantial (consecutive) loses, a massive drop in share price and a board room revolt........sound familiar:confused:

[John B]

At the time of us (SFC) going into administration, one of his other companies R F Webb, wrote to all creditors begging them not to put the company into administration (18 months after they made big redundancies). Additionally his other chairmanship at WH Ireland was posting substantial (consecutive) loses, a massive drop in share price and a board room revolt........sound familiar:confused:

 

That is really interesting but proves bugger all I would have thought

[John B]

As Rupes agent....You are not actually the best......If I need an agent for my very sucessful appearances on this marvelous forum....You John will be my very last choice......Back to the pheasant shoot John Boy.

 

Or trying to sell a few books:(

 

Postal Strike is not helping either

[Gemmel]

That is really interesting but proves bugger all I would have thought

 

Ha ha you'll need to scroll through a few thousand pages on this forum to find a post that does

[John B]

Ha ha you'll need to scroll through a few thousand pages on this forum to find a post that does

 

Yes that made me laugh

[ottery st mary]

Or trying to sell a few books:(

 

Postal Strike is not helping either

 

 

John B......If you were to come clean regarding your mate..Rupes.. All that insider knowledge...you could end up writting a book instead of selling them..

 

It would be a best seller.....'Everything you want to know about Flucking a football club and its fans'.....:smt014.....I know you are very close to Rupes. Will you tell us why you are such a great supporter of the great man and your connection.

 

 

By the way my good lady.....The managing Director of my little old house on the prairie..... sells many books on Amazon and the like.......Makes a tidy profit but will also be struggling for a while..due to this postal strike.

[dune]

I was listening to 5 live this morning and tax evaders who hide their money offshore have 10 days to take up the amnesty and pay up what they owe to HMRC. Failure to pay up will mean greater financial penalties and prosecutions. I wonder if this will affect anyone we know?

[Frank's cousin]

Oh super. Frank and his cosy fence-sitting, bending-over-backwards-to-appear-balanced-for-the-sake-of-it-with-whatever-tedious-drivel-is-necessary is back...

 

Oh, well, At least he tries to make an argument, unlike SOGGY.

 

Now there's a surprize....

[Frank's cousin]

The 'seeking' or not seeking' investment during 2003 is an interesting debate. All hinges on whether the majority of shareholders at the time would have been willing to dilute their equity for the 'good of the club' by making a sizable chunk available to an outsider in exchange for investment - the issue really was the share price and therefore the 'value' of the club at the club at the time. The Price was actually quite low at around 27p, a reflection of the lack of fluidity in trading the shares and because despite have our greatest turnover that year, the dividends were low (only 800k amongst some 27,000,000 shares) - it woudl have meant that realistically we would have only been able to raise about 10 mil for giving away over 50% of the club... and that woudl not even have covered the Saha and Malbranque transfer fees let alone teh impact on wages their their demands would have brought.

 

This is not about defending Lowe (Alps again wont let thsi go, but until he brings something to the discussion, he is best ignored ;-)) but about the realism that goes with trying to raise capital. The best way would have been to try and sell the club to a wealthy type, but on the open market any takeover would pushed our price up to about 80p a share and so someone would have been looking at about 50 mil to by teh club and clear the loans before investing in playing staff. Were we worth that much and would anyone have been interested we will never know, but remember it was not quite as busy a market as it is today. Also if anyone was serious they could have bought shares and made a bid irrespective of Lowe and his cronies desire to hold on to a 'powerbas' or not.

 

I wont deny that I also think lowe enjoyed his position, the ego massaged by the glamour of the game and the FA position, but to think this is what stopped any inward investment is churlih and naive IMHO. I dont recall fans clamouring for teh club to be sold at the time, just desperate to see WGS be given more cash - yet no one was offering where that would come from.

 

Opinions on this really depend less on your dislike for Lowe or his clan, but more on what you believe a club should be doing with respect to financial management - should a clud or all clubs be forced to live within their means or should debt be accaptable?

 

Personally, I felt and still do that all clubs should be living within their revenue streams. BOrrowing on infrastructure such as new Stadia and training facilties should be done on the understanding that the loans are sustainable if relegation occured. In our case they were, had we adjusted the player costs more quickly and not heightened the problem with new contracts under Wilde.

 

I totally appreciate the perception it gave especially when you consider that around us clubs were happily upping the transfer stakes, but either fuelled by borrowings or sugar Daddies... How you rate Lowe on that will depend on your attitude to debt. Given the state of the country now and teh debt we have as individuals its not surprizing that teh majority view him as tight fecker who should have taken more 'risk' to progress...

[dune]

The 'seeking' or not seeking' investment during 2003 is an interesting debate.

 

Oh no it isn't.

 

What is the point. Lowe is dead long live Mr Liebherr.

[Frank's cousin]

Oh no it isn't.

 

What is the point. Lowe is dead long live Mr Liebherr.

 

:-) True, but as it was brought up....it would have been negligent of me to remain quiet ;-)

[Weston Saint]

As the 2002/3 season is the one mentioned a lot here I thought I wold look at that end of season table where, I am sure you will remember, we finished 8th and cup final.

 

Others in that division that season who have fallen and not yet fully recovered:

 

Leeds & Charlton both now in League 1.

 

WBA, Newcastle (3rd) & Middlesbrough now in the Championship.

 

We are not alone but it does not make it any easier to accept, I know.

[Whitey Grandad]

As the 2002/3 season is the one mentioned a lot here I thought I wold look at that end of season table where, I am sure you will remember, we finished 8th and cup final.

 

Others in that division that season who have fallen and not yet fully recovered:

 

Leeds & Charlton both now in League 1.

 

WBA, Newcastle (3rd) & Middlesbrough now in the Championship.

 

We are not alone but it does not make it any easier to accept, I know.

The relevant question is whether we would now be in a better situation if we had been under a different chairman.

 

We shall never know.

[John B]

The relevant question is whether we would now be in a better situation if we had been under a different chairman.

 

 

It depends whether you like our current situation.

 

 

Although we are in Div 1 I think our future is brighter now than if we were still struggling under the PLC in either the Premiership or CCC

[Weston Saint]

The relevant question is whether we would now be in a better situation if we had been under a different chairman.

 

We shall never know.

OK I accept that but let us look at it from a slightly different prospective.

 

We were riding high and WGS wanted to go to the next level (or at least the supporters did). Where was that money coming from? No investors lining up then. So it would have been borrowing and put our whole future financed in doubt (I know we went that way anyway but that was because we borrowed from the bank under the "Wilde" period and lost the gamble. We failed in the playoffs.)

 

Many say WGS felt he had taken us as far as we could go on the finances available and he left us, although he says his promised time was up and the need for an operation hastened that!

 

That is when it went wrong. Lowe took a gamble. He tried to go for a manager from the lower divisions, admittedly with success but untried at Premier level. It failed.

 

Then he made an unforgiveable mistake. He did not learn from his own history. He appointed within for the second time. It failed miserably but at the same time we did have an horrendous injury period with many of the players who had got us to the previous high level unavailable for periods. He quite rightly stood him down.

 

He then employed a Manager who had been and is still a successfull manager but with one flaw. He could only do that with money. Beattie money was given to him but it would appear from what has been said since, he was not fully supported by Lowe who was suspicious of him and his spending reputation. Why employ him then? If you cannot give overwealming support to a manager you have no chance!

 

So, I do not see it as investment or innovation failure. We went down because Lowe chose the wrong people and had to keep changing them. Three Managers in one season all with different ideas on how a team should be, wanting to impose their own ideas simply lead to confusion on the pitch and off it.

 

Would we have recovered and been "repromoted" as Lowe called it. I doubt it for the same reasons as before. We did not have the money or outside investment to make us more than an average Championship team. Lowe would have been careful with the parachute payments. He would have never gambled. It was not in his nature.

 

Would we have suffered Administration anyway? In my opinion, no but we would have had the mortgage on the stadium ever round our neck to prevent improving the team.

 

 

We had a different Chairman after Lowe, several in fact, but no one could rescue the folly spending of the regime who took the reigns from Lowe.

[Whitey Grandad]

OK I accept that but let us look at it from a slightly different prospective.

 

We were riding high and WGS wanted to go to the next level (or at least the supporters did). Where was that money coming from? No investors lining up then. So it would have been borrowing and put our whole future financed in doubt (I know we went that way anyway but that was because we borrowed from the bank under the "Wilde" period and lost the gamble. We failed in the playoffs.)

 

Many say WGS felt he had taken us as far as we could go on the finances available and he left us, although he says his promised time was up and the need for an operation hastened that!

 

That is when it went wrong. Lowe took a gamble. He tried to go for a manager from the lower divisions, admittedly with success but untried at Premier level. It failed.

 

Then he made an unforgiveable mistake. He did not learn from his own history. He appointed within for the second time. It failed miserably but at the same time we did have an horrendous injury period with many of the players who had got us to the previous high level unavailable for periods. He quite rightly stood him down.

 

He then employed a Manager who had been and is still a successfull manager but with one flaw. He could only do that with money. Beattie money was given to him but it would appear from what has been said since, he was not fully supported by Lowe who was suspicious of him and his spending reputation. Why employ him then? If you cannot give overwealming support to a manager you have no chance!

 

So, I do not see it as investment or innovation failure. We went down because Lowe chose the wrong people and had to keep changing them. Three Managers in one season all with different ideas on how a team should be, wanting to impose their own ideas simply lead to confusion on the pitch and off it.

 

Would we have recovered and been "repromoted" as Lowe called it. I doubt it for the same reasons as before. We did not have the money or outside investment to make us more than an average Championship team. Lowe would have been careful with the parachute payments. He would have never gambled. It was not in his nature.

 

Would we have suffered Administration anyway? In my opinion, no but we would have had the mortgage on the stadium ever round our neck to prevent improving the team.

 

 

We had a different Chairman after Lowe, several in fact, but no one could rescue the folly spending of the regime who took the reigns from Lowe.

I can't argue with any of that. Once the mistakes had been made and the parachutes had gone then nothing other than sizeable outside investment could have saved us. I still think that the Dutch gamble was an unnecessary roll of the dice though.

[Whitey Grandad]

It depends whether you like our current situation.

 

 

Although we are in Div 1 I think our future is brighter now than if we were still struggling under the PLC in either the Premiership or CCC

I'm with you on this one. I like real football that I can relate to, with proper football grounds to visit and sensible ticket prices.

[saintwarwick]

Ok all, here goes.

 

Stop confusing what Lowe did. He did not gamble our future in the Premiership by paying stupid wages and transfer fees. He also had big wage reductions for after relegation (as someone on here said he didn't??!!). He got us St Mary's (to a degree). He delivered us Wembley and 8th place.

 

However...

 

He also got us relegated, and partook is some money saving schemes that just didn't work. He was arrogant and obnoxious (but most chairman are).

 

But...

 

As far as I'm concerned this club was spoilt by Wilde and his cowboys.

 

This is just about the best post on this subject. Perhaps we can now close the subject, he is gone and imo forgotten, I'm looking forward to the future.

[saintwarwick]

As the 2002/3 season is the one mentioned a lot here I thought I wold look at that end of season table where, I am sure you will remember, we finished 8th and cup final.

 

Others in that division that season who have fallen and not yet fully recovered:

 

Leeds & Charlton both now in League 1.

 

WBA, Newcastle (3rd) & Middlesbrough now in the Championship.

 

We are not alone but it does not make it any easier to accept, I know.

 

The relevant question is whether we would now be in a better situation if we had been under a different chairman.

 

We shall never know.

 

The same could be said about the above clubs

[Whitey Grandad]

The same could be said about the above clubs

That's the beauty of speculation. Nobody can prove that you are wrong

[Dark Munster]

.

 

I wont deny that I also think lowe enjoyed his position, the ego massaged by the glamour of the game and the FA position, but to think this is what stopped any inward investment is churlih and naive IMHO. I dont recall fans clamouring for teh club to be sold at the time, just desperate to see WGS be given more cash - yet no one was offering where that would come from.

 

 

But selling the club to a wealthy investor is just what was needed to give WGS the cash he needed.

 

Anyway, I don't think many fans were clamouring for the club to be sold because they knew that they would be just pissing in the wind.

[Nineteen Canteen]

As the 2002/3 season is the one mentioned a lot here I thought I wold look at that end of season table where, I am sure you will remember, we finished 8th and cup final.

 

Others in that division that season who have fallen and not yet fully recovered:

 

Leeds & Charlton both now in League 1.

 

WBA, Newcastle (3rd) & Middlesbrough now in the Championship.

 

We are not alone but it does not make it any easier to accept, I know.

 

I have been saying it for a while but relegation from the Permier League is an occupational hazard for all but a handful of clubs. Like it or not this is not the level playing field of the late 20th C and it was a tremendous achievement to finish 8th but not a feat as easily repeated as the many repeated battles to avoid relegation in times when it was arguably easier to compete at the top before 'wealth gap' really took hold.

 

It was a miracle we avoided relegation in at least 4 of our 25 years before 2003 and to finish 8th was a feat on par (all things being relative) with our 2nd place in the league in the 80's.

 

Nobody at Newcastle can complain about the lack of money only how it was spent and the Boro's chairman seems one of the good guys and very different in his approach to Lowe but neither offer a blueprint to success.

 

It seems to me fans are quick to withdraw their support or rock the boat during a bad run as laughably Liverpool fans are now doing after 4 straight defeats and god knows how many straight top 4 finishes in previous seasons?! Fans and their unrealistic levels of expectation bring down clubs and exacerbate what usually is an already poor situation and there seems little else in terms of a common denominator that can be added to that fact.

[Saint Fan CaM]

I am astounded that Lowe is still getting airplay on this forum frankly. He has been banished from the club we all love to the wilderness and that's how it should be on here. He never represented the football of this club IMO and so if anyone feels the need to talk about him, can this not be done in another forum slot? I just don't want to see his name or anything about him posted on the main board - it just lowers the whole tone and positivity by several notches.

[Nineteen Canteen]

I am astounded that Lowe is still getting airplay on this forum frankly. He has been banished from the club we all love to the wilderness and that's how it should be on here. He never represented the football of this club IMO and so if anyone feels the need to talk about him, can this not be done in another forum slot? I just don't want to see his name or anything about him posted on the main board - it just lowers the whole tone and positivity by several notches.

 

Get over yourself - are you suggesting a separate forum for all Lowe related threads. 'The Lowe Breakfast Bar' perhaps? This thread has actually come up with the more sensible debate and time like everything else will dictate when his name barely creates a ripple in our consciousness but that doesn't appear to be yet but time is producing a more balanced debate or is that what you are scared of?

[SaintRobbie]

Get over yourself - are you suggesting a separate forum for all Lowe related threads. 'The Lowe Breakfast Bar' perhaps? This thread has actually come up with the more sensible debate and time like everything else will dictate when his name barely creates a ripple in our consciousness but that doesn't appear to be yet but time is producing a more balanced debate or is that what you are scared of?

 

Sounds like a quote from Nick Griffin.