Alanh Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 LM was and always will be a hero to Saints fans everywhere for 1976, Keegan and the second place finish. After he left Saints he didn't have anywhere near that level of success so judging him on his career I would find it difficult to say he was in the top 20 managers in English football. Any manager who has won one or more cups is up there alongside him. Anyone who has won the First Division / Prem has to be up there as well. Anyone who has won a European competition or managed the England team successfully has to be above him so I make the top 20: Ramsey, Bobby Robson, Revie, Greenwood, Shankley, Paisley, Dalgiesh, Busby, Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, Benitez, Saunders, Kendall, Armfield, Mee, Venables, Burkinshaw, George Graham, Clough. I would say however that LM is currently one of the top 20 managers in English football who are plying their trade on the after dinner speaking circuit.
wightman35 Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 This thread makes an enjoyable read, but I am waiting for the day when we can add the name Pardew to the list of greatest. Within five years?
SaintDonkey Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 This thread makes an enjoyable read, but I am waiting for the day when we can add the name Pardew to the list of greatest. Within five years? He's already in the top 20 post-war Southampton managers (mind you so's Branfoot by my reckoning)
eurosaint Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 After Paisley, you begin to get a bit thin and don't think that I didn't notice that you have included Benitez twice. I didn't say that you busied yourself with my responses, I stated that you busied yourself with trying to bad-mouth Southampton heroes, in particular Le Tiss and McMenemy. Sadly, you have not given reasons as to why you consider those managers to be better than McMenemy, so your response lacks the substance that you accuse others of avoiding. Of course, what becomes crystal clear from viewing the list is that most of those managers managed the top three or four teams of their day. Take out any that managed ManUre, The Arse, Chelski, Liverpool and your list looks a lot thinner. I'm not saying that those people who managed those clubs were poor managers, but they weren't exactly strapped by a tight budget were they? Also, it was naturally far more difficult to attract players to a club like this than any of those four. But I doubt that you'll be able to think about that objectively, as it would mean giving McMenemy some credit and you couldn't do that, could you? Spot on Wes ! Without even mentioning people like Bertie Mee, it is easy to pluck out names from the top teams and say they were the best but that really only tells a small part of the story ! It is all very subjective and who is to say that Dave Bassett (having taken Wimbledon up through all the leagues) is not greater than Mourhinho who was allowed to buy the world ! LM is a part of Saints folklore and will be considered as our most successful manager based on achievements, though others may argue that Ted Bates made a bigger and more lasting commitment to the club, who knows ? What I do find sad is that 19C continues to denigrate those who made a major contribution in their day and whether or not they should be classified as 'top 20' is irrelevant !
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 There is no doubt that between 1976 & his departure for Sunderland, McMenemy was one of the top managers in British Football. Doing what he did at Southampton was worth a few trophies at Liverpool, Moan U etc etc. So, depending on your counting method, to be in the top 3 managers for a period of 8 years or so 'could' qualify him as a top 20 post war manager. We played some fast, exciting football during his time. My issues with McMenemy started some time after that! Yes, I can go along with this. At the time LM was responsible for establishing us as a top 6 club, playing quality football and punching above our weight in the transfer market. They were great days. But as Richard says as a character there are flaws.
trousers Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Who'd have thought this thread would get the reaction it did. That's what I love about the SWF - highly unpredictable. You're never quite sure what's coming next.... Strewth.
Micky Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Top 20, dunno (and don't care really). Just immensely grateful for what he gave us when he was manager. His achievements have been well documented here and so I won't bother repeating them, but suffice to say, he gave me some of my best ever footballing memories, and for that alone I will forever be indebted to him. Couldn't give a stuff about where he is in the Guinness top whatever - for me he's number one anyway.
Dellman Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Can anyone remind me how Lawrie got on when he deserted us for Sunderland?
eurosaint Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Yes, I can go along with this. At the time LM was responsible for establishing us as a top 6 club, playing quality football and punching above our weight in the transfer market. They were great days. But as Richard says as a character there are flaws. Playing devil's advocate, I guess you could say that about many of the so called greats as well ? Clough, Ferguson, Mourhino etc.. all have had their moments of aggression, arrogance, favouritism and bullying to mention just a few little 'character flaws' !!
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Playing devil's advocate, I guess you could say that about many of the so called greats as well ? Clough, Ferguson, Mourhino etc.. all have had their moments of aggression, arrogance, favouritism and bullying to mention just a few little 'character flaws' !! Indeed - and probably the "greater" the manager the more flaws. Clough anybody?
70's Mike Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 i see Nineteen is running true to form knocking anything to do with Southampton Football Club which falls outside the years 1997 to 2004
alki_in_korea Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 (edited) I met Laurie a few years back when he did a radio show for John Inverdale at Hardley School. I was at sixth form there and got to serve them drinks. Spoke to him afterwards and he was a fountain of knowledge about fooball, you could really see he cared about saints aswell. I say fair play to him. Martin Peters charges a lot more for his speaches and he was boring as hell and kept saying his goal won the world cup not Geof Hurst's hatrick. His antoadotes were a bit lame and was a bot rubbish. Would much rather hear Laurie or Ruddock. Ruddocks speaches are awesome Edited 16 October, 2009 by alki_in_korea
thegaffer Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Well that is the headline statement if you would like to book Lawrie as your after dinner speaker for the evening at a reasonable £3k - £5k. Not bad work if you can get it and IMO it does make you wonder why he can't pay for his seat at SMS this season. http://www.gordonpoole.com/?ArtistID=1006 It's amazing the Guinness Book of Soccer facts rank's him among the top 20 most successful football managers in post war English football. Now I am no historian but since my first football memories from the early 1970's I think I can come up with a list of 20 more successful managers and if you read is football mangement CV it's not the most inspiring unless you are a Saints fan. Now I appreciate I will take a good kicking over this but putting their Saints sentiments to one side does anybody agree that Lawrie is one of the most successful UK manager's and that he is ranked in the top 20 Guinness book of Soccer facts as one of the most successful managers in post war English football. I accept that may have been the case if the edition of the book being quoted is 1985 but in 2009? Seems inaccurate IMO. Made me smile that he still had to get a dig in at our past chairman for leaving his position as Director of Football and yet didn't give any reason for leaving Northern Ireland or why he decided to have a break from football after a short period in charge of Sunderland. Oh, and not to mention the small matter of a nice windfall from share ownership. Perhaps, if McMenemy had stayed manager at Saints he may have merited his claim to fame and gone on to win more trophies and even improve on that 2nd place but that was very much the top of his manageral slide and it's difficult to agree with the Guinness book of facts. Does anyone agree or do they believe that based on achievements and trophies Lawrie deserves this accolade? Get a life
VectisSaint Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 As the Guinness Book of Soccer Facts was published in 1980, Lawrie would easily qualify. If it was published today, I suspect he wouldn't make the Top 100. Thats not to say that along with Ted, Lawrie wasn't the greatest thing (other than some players) ever to happen to Saints. It takes a particularly nasty type of so-called troll supporter to try to deny what anyone who has any feeling for the Club well knows. The Troll should just get over himself and go and live in the Cotswolds with the Dark Lord, his super hero.
Wes Tender Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Not 20, but I'll give you ten? Joe Mercer (Man City) Don Revie (Leeds Utd) Bill Shankly (Liverpool) Harry Catterick (Everton) Brian Clough (Derby/Notts Forrest) Bill Nicholson (Spurs) Bertie Mee (Arsenal) Tommy Docherty (Chelsea) Ron Greenwood (West Ham) Sir Bobby Robson (Ipswich) Ted Bates The thing is this is all subjective and whilst Laurie is undoubtedly a hero to many Saints fans there are other managers who he was not better than. If you go back into the late sixties you had Matt Busby even! I loved what Laurie did for Saints but I wasn't happy with him seemingly leaving us in the lurch either. However, do we know the full reasons he left us? This is exactly the point. You've come up with a decent list of 10 and Nineteen has come up with a list of 20 who in his opinion would push Lawrie out of the top 20, but many would dispute half the names on his list as not being superior managers. Sensibly, it also has to be taken into consideration the circumstances of the club, size of fan base, wealth of owners, etc. I notice you have the Doc on your list, who did well at Chelsea, but got Man Ure relegated the same season as us. Indeed, if I recall correctly from being at the match, if either of us won, we might have escaped, but we drew, I think and both went down.
SaintRobbie Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Well that is the headline statement if you would like to book Lawrie as your after dinner speaker for the evening at a reasonable £3k - £5k. Not bad work if you can get it and IMO it does make you wonder why he can't pay for his seat at SMS this season. http://www.gordonpoole.com/?ArtistID=1006 It's amazing the Guinness Book of Soccer facts rank's him among the top 20 most successful football managers in post war English football. Now I am no historian but since my first football memories from the early 1970's I think I can come up with a list of 20 more successful managers and if you read is football mangement CV it's not the most inspiring unless you are a Saints fan. Now I appreciate I will take a good kicking over this but putting their Saints sentiments to one side does anybody agree that Lawrie is one of the most successful UK manager's and that he is ranked in the top 20 Guinness book of Soccer facts as one of the most successful managers in post war English football. I accept that may have been the case if the edition of the book being quoted is 1985 but in 2009? Seems inaccurate IMO. Made me smile that he still had to get a dig in at our past chairman for leaving his position as Director of Football and yet didn't give any reason for leaving Northern Ireland or why he decided to have a break from football after a short period in charge of Sunderland. Oh, and not to mention the small matter of a nice windfall from share ownership. Perhaps, if McMenemy had stayed manager at Saints he may have merited his claim to fame and gone on to win more trophies and even improve on that 2nd place but that was very much the top of his manageral slide and it's difficult to agree with the Guinness book of facts. Does anyone agree or do they believe that based on achievements and trophies Lawrie deserves this accolade? LOL. You are just a complete prat 19 C. Why so vengeful? Did one of the greatest managers in Southampton's history - second only to Ted Bates - bully you at school? Or... are you such a divisive and self centred prat that you aren't actually a Saints fan? ... or perhaps you.... well.... have very few friends and need the release of this website to make up for your unpopularity by ****ing off every real fan in Southampton? Please ban this idiot mods. Please. He is right now the last bastion of Lowe's defeated regime. Future's much brighter now. ...lets move forward with our old greats and our fans. BAN THIS IDIOT.
Thedelldays Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Kenny Dalglish won the league with two different clubs. That is better than anything Lawrie acheived. Ron Atkinson acheived significant success at West Brom, Villa, Sheff Weds and Man United. That is better than anything Lawrie acheived who had success at one club only and failed everywhere else. Ron Greenwood errr built the team with "the greatest English players ever" and got appointed Englan manager, not England assistant manager. That is better than anything Lawrie acheived. Mourinho not as good as Lawrie McMenemy. What "massive spend" did he have when Porto won the Champion's League then? Jimmy Armfield got to the final of the European Cup with Leeds.That is better than anything Lawrie acheived. Moyes is probably as close to a McMenemy level of achievement - ie solid league placings - but the style is different of course. Lawrie did well for us but no way in the top twenty of all time in England. Quick mention for two Villa managers - Ron Saunders who won the European Cup and Graham Taylor who achieved Lawrie-like success with Saints-like Watford but built on it at a big club with Villa and then appointed England manager, with Lawrie as assistant of course. And then made a comeback with Watford again. The big difference is the greatest managers have success at one club, but repeat it elsewhere. Lawrie was brilliant for us is a one club wonder in the great scheme of things. No it isn't. Lawrie frankly is good but not that good. Nineteen Canteen is a wind up merchant and you shouldn't raise to the bait but to say comparisons to fine, fine football men like Hodsgon and Jimmy Armfield as an "insult" to Lawrie is an "insult" to those men whose acheivements stand up against Lawrie any day of the week, if not better. Ron Atkinson's record at four clubs (not just one) blows Lawrie clean out of the water. Too many rose-tinted specs, I fear. these seems to be missed by everyone.
Katalinic Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Who cares if he is in the top 20 or not. All I know is that he put together one of the finest Saints teams of all time - the like of which we have not seen since. They were brilliant to watch.
VectisSaint Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 these seems to be missed by everyone. Just like it seems to have been missed by everyone that the book was published in 1980. Perhaps just coincidentally at the same time as Lawrie had signed the European Footballer of the Year, Keegan, and just after he had got us promoted, been runners up in the League Cup and soon after we won the FA Cuo while in the 2nd Division. No-one is seriously trying to say that Lawrie is one of the Top 20 managers of all time in England. But the Troll of course wants to carry on his perverse hatred of someone who is a major player in the history of Southampton FC.
Micky Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Just like it seems to have been missed by everyone that the book was published in 1980. Perhaps just coincidentally at the same time as Lawrie had signed the European Footballer of the Year, Keegan, and just after he had got us promoted, been runners up in the League Cup and soon after we won the FA Cuo while in the 2nd Division. No-one is seriously trying to say that Lawrie is one of the Top 20 managers of all time in England. But the Troll of course wants to carry on his perverse hatred of someone who is a major player in the history of Southampton FC. To be fair to NC though, the link that he provides states that Lawrie is listed in said publishing. Whether the list has been updated through re-issues is a point of conjucture, but clearly it's his PR team that are using this line to (perhaps) enhance his public CV. All of that said - couldn't give a toss either way - guy did good for us...!
Daren W Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 (edited) Will we ever get a thread on here discussing the many good things Lawrie McMenemy did for this club? Or will we forever drone on about his behaviour after quitting the game? I can understand people not liking his behaviour during the Lowe years and that's understandable. But quite how any Saints fan can come on this board and slag off McMenemy's abilities as a manager is beyond me. It's completely and utterly ridiculous. A cup final win, runners up to one of the best British sides ever, Europe and some of the best players ever to grace the dell..... What would the man have to do to merit being classified as one of the best English managers? From the second division to first division runners up? If that doesn't merit praise what does? And for 12 years? He quit after 12 years, how can anyone play the loyalty card there? How many managers have stuck around that long? How long will people carry that one around with them? Far too often we get the likes of the house troll on here bemoaning McMenemy, re-writing history and dwelling on the pleasing crowd antics of the last six odd years. Yes I'm not happy with the ticket for the gravy train but let's not forget several other far worse offenders who actually drove the gravy train and ran it off the rails. You may not like him, you don't have to but to re-write history and dismiss some of our greatest moments is just plain insulting. I'd have hoped that with the new regime that crap like this would have died a death, that we'd drawn a line, remembered Lawrie for all the many good things he'd done for the club and left it at that but it seems that the house troll is intent on smearing and ridiculing all of our Saints heroes. Dobby still seems to be obsessed with Lawrie and also Le Tissier's failings. That dead horse is still being well and truly flogged and it makes you wonder just what sort of pleasure can be gained by dragging people's names through the mud? So Le Tissier's human, why harp on about one small indiscretion and seemingly ignore a career of supreme distinction? Why remember all the good things McMenemy did when we can concentrate on a few freebies and over priced speaking fees? Makes you wonder why any of us bother watching Saints at all. Threads like this and the Soccer Saturday one almost make you feel slightly dirty.... Edited 16 October, 2009 by Daren W
EastleighSoulBoy Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 This is exactly the point. You've come up with a decent list of 10 and Nineteen has come up with a list of 20 who in his opinion would push Lawrie out of the top 20, but many would dispute half the names on his list as not being superior managers. Sensibly, it also has to be taken into consideration the circumstances of the club, size of fan base, wealth of owners, etc. I notice you have the Doc on your list, who did well at Chelsea, but got Man Ure relegated the same season as us. Indeed, if I recall correctly from being at the match, if either of us won, we might have escaped, but we drew, I think and both went down. That game you talk of, if memory serves right, actually relegated United. Our fate was sealed away at Everton (following week?) on the last game of the season. Although we beat them 3-1 (or maybe 3-0?) we were relying on Norwich and Birmingham coming up with the right ( for us ) result. Sadly they didn't. It was a sad trip home with a few 'old boys' (50 yrs) in tears.
dubai_phil Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Well that is the headline statement if you would like to book Lawrie as your after dinner speaker for the evening at a reasonable £3k - £5k. Not bad work if you can get it and IMO it does make you wonder why he can't pay for his seat at SMS this season. http://www.gordonpoole.com/?ArtistID=1006 It's amazing the Guinness Book of Soccer facts rank's him among the top 20 most successful football managers in post war English football. Now I am no historian but since my first football memories from the early 1970's I think I can come up with a list of 20 more successful managers and if you read is football mangement CV it's not the most inspiring unless you are a Saints fan. Now I appreciate I will take a good kicking over this but putting their Saints sentiments to one side does anybody agree that Lawrie is one of the most successful UK manager's and that he is ranked in the top 20 Guinness book of Soccer facts as one of the most successful managers in post war English football. I accept that may have been the case if the edition of the book being quoted is 1985 but in 2009? Seems inaccurate IMO. Made me smile that he still had to get a dig in at our past chairman for leaving his position as Director of Football and yet didn't give any reason for leaving Northern Ireland or why he decided to have a break from football after a short period in charge of Sunderland. Oh, and not to mention the small matter of a nice windfall from share ownership. Perhaps, if McMenemy had stayed manager at Saints he may have merited his claim to fame and gone on to win more trophies and even improve on that 2nd place but that was very much the top of his manageral slide and it's difficult to agree with the Guinness book of facts. Does anyone agree or do they believe that based on achievements and trophies Lawrie deserves this accolade? Wow, your own OP solves all your problems. You answered it yourself. Lawrie ONLY earns 3-5k as an after dinner speaker. Pretty poor effort that for a professional Motivational Speaker, heck, wouldn't even cover the airfare to the event. Whether HE merits the title is irrelevant, Marketing Bullsh!t requires such language to be used by the ORGANISERS of an event in order to attract the correct number of "Black Ties" Now, post one of his personal promotional adverts or personal leaflets saying this, well that's another issue, but for an orgainser trying to juggle a low cost name to attract people, marketing rules. Many on here have Great marketing tags Trousers - The Leading light in Internet Detection Skills Saint Stevo - Leader of the campaign to make Soccer stadiums Crutch Friendly Alpine - The voice of caution Master Bates - Without doubt the finest supporter of Bewbs in the land Nickh - The man who knows the true feeling of pain Minty - Probably the leading Sports Action photographer in the country Saint David - The man that all ITK'ers aspire to match Why even one of our local stars EricofArabia - The Man who makes sure it gets up safely Arizona - The Man who loves his football club SO much he must move house every week just so that they can win and so on and so on. All could be used as marketing bs to get punters to pay to sit around pretending to be Sean Connery in their Tux's and pretending the Chilean Cab Sav with the dry pan burnt Fillet is actually drinkable. Me, meh, They turn up to see Dubai Phil. The man who holds up the mirror. Must be some more (polite ones)
saint_mears Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 there must be medication for this guys problem.
hypochondriac Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Does it really matter where people put him? He was decent for us and that's all that really matters. There are too many factors to categorise managers in such a way anyway.
The boy done well Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 Our first few years in the old 1st division and the Lawrie years from the mid 70's onwards were FANTASTIC as was watching Matt le Tiss at his best. I wonder how old some of those are who can knock any of this. He may not be everyone's cup of tea today but Lawrie put us in the history books and gave us the kind of memories that fans of most clubs can only dream of. I rate being at Wembley behind Bobby Stokes goalbound shot as one of the greatest moments of my life-it was Lawrie's team that provided me with that moment and memory and it will live with me for the rest of my life.
Under Weststand Posted 16 October, 2009 Posted 16 October, 2009 What Lawrie Mac did for this club as a manager was nothing short of phenomenal. Is he in the top 20, well that is questionable, as is 19c's top 20, putting Moyes in there is pathetic what has he achieved at one of the supposed big clubs in the Premier league? Lawrie's agenda/agenda's in the last few years can be called into question, but that is another Issue. Not the point of the thread IMHO. As Saints fans, how anything he did as a manager for this football club can be called into question is beyond me. He gave us our best period of sustained success(cup win, promotion, so close to a glorious year in 1983 runners up cup semi finals league cup final many European places).These arguments are all subjective I know but if it doesn't put him in the top 20 then it must put him pretty close. It certainly puts him in front of David Moyes who has a 4th place finish & 1 fa cup final appearance plus a promotion from what is now our Division to his name. Different era but 19c is using these points for his arguments. I for one thank god I lived through Lawrie's era, lived & loved every minute of the ride & I thank him for the memories he helped to give me not only the success, limited that it was but the wonderful football I was lucky to witness, what would I give, & hope many young Saints fan can once again enjoy those day's again.
Nineteen Canteen Posted 16 October, 2009 Author Posted 16 October, 2009 After Paisley, you begin to get a bit thin and don't think that I didn't notice that you have included Benitez twice. I didn't say that you busied yourself with my responses, I stated that you busied yourself with trying to bad-mouth Southampton heroes, in particular Le Tiss and McMenemy. Sadly, you have not given reasons as to why you consider those managers to be better than McMenemy, so your response lacks the substance that you accuse others of avoiding. Of course, what becomes crystal clear from viewing the list is that most of those managers managed the top three or four teams of their day. Take out any that managed ManUre, The Arse, Chelski, Liverpool and your list looks a lot thinner. I'm not saying that those people who managed those clubs were poor managers, but they weren't exactly strapped by a tight budget were they? Also, it was naturally far more difficult to attract players to a club like this than any of those four. But I doubt that you'll be able to think about that objectively, as it would mean giving McMenemy some credit and you couldn't do that, could you? The red font especially for you, as I know how much you like it. Apologies for my mistake on Rafa. So we shall replace him with Potts, manager of Burnley's League 1 champions in the 1960's or how about Stokoe? First names Wes? I'll give you a clue the first one is called Harry. BTW I don't dispute McMenemy was our greatest manager but I think he or his agent is using poetic licence IMO to sell him as one of the top 20 managers in the post war English Game and that's ignoring 25 years from 1945 to 1960. Does anyone have this Guinness Book of Soccer facts and the edition it was quoted in?
Nineteen Canteen Posted 16 October, 2009 Author Posted 16 October, 2009 You'd have to leave Ferguson in for his exploits with Aberdeen alone. Don't think Liverpool were that flush when Shankley took them over. Weren't they in league 2 at the time?
Nineteen Canteen Posted 17 October, 2009 Author Posted 17 October, 2009 I just love having 19 on my ignore list! Thanks for letting us know. In the meantime thanks everyone for a great response and as always a good debate builds your knowledge base and great to see all the other great managers offered up as top 20 candidates. There are some very well informed and balanced posters on this forum whom I always enjoy reading then there are the reactionaries who in their usual blinkered fashion could not read the comment in the OP that asked them to put their obvious love for McMenemy to one side for a moment and view the question objectively. Thanks to those who did. If Vectis is correct and that the Guinness book of facts was published in 1980then maybe at that time McMenemy would have made the list but to suggest in his marketing he is one of the top 20 managers in the past era as an indisputable fact today is wrong IMO. My other question I don't think was answered that Lawrie is potentially doing ok on the after dinner circuit and in that realm it is probably a modest fee but as a pension top up perhaps not too bad and it does beg the question why your hero doesn't want to buy a ticket to watch his beloved club anymore. I don't understand it, does anyone else? BTW, Gaffer , I have a life, not much of a life granted but a life nonetheless and one that I don't try to be somthing I am not. Thanks for your contribution or shall we start a thread on the top 20 post war comedians that have performed in England?
hypochondriac Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 Thanks for letting us know. In the meantime thanks everyone for a great response and as always a good debate builds your knowledge base and great to see all the other great managers offered up as top 20 candidates. There are some very well informed and balanced posters on this forum whom I always enjoy reading then there are the reactionaries who in their usual blinkered fashion could not read the comment in the OP that asked them to put their obvious love for McMenemy to one side for a moment and view the question objectively. Thanks to those who did. If Vectis is correct and that the Guinness book of facts was published in 1980then maybe at that time McMenemy would have made the list but to suggest in his marketing he is one of the top 20 managers in the past era as an indisputable fact today is wrong IMO. My other question I don't think was answered that Lawrie is potentially doing ok on the after dinner circuit and in that realm it is probably a modest fee but as a pension top up perhaps not too bad and it does beg the question why your hero doesn't want to buy a ticket to watch his beloved club anymore. I don't understand it, does anyone else? BTW, Gaffer , I have a life, not much of a life granted but a life nonetheless and one that I don't try to be somthing I am not. Thanks for your contribution or shall we start a thread on the top 20 post war comedians that have performed in England? See why with the continual sniping? Why Weston prefers your posts to others on here I will never know.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 Don Revie (Leeds) Bill Nicholson (Spurs) Sir Bobby (various) Rafa Benitez (Liverpool) Sir Alf Ramsey (England) Jose Mourinho (Chelsea) Jock Stein (Celtic) Arsene Wenger (Arsenal) Sir Matt Busby (United) Brian Clough (Derby/Forest) Bob Paisley (Liverpool) Bill Shankley (Liverpool) Sir Alex Ferguson (United) Ron Greenwood (West Ham/England) Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool) Martin O'Neill (Leicester/Celtic) Graham Taylor (various) Howard Kendall (various) Ron Atkinson (various) Sorry to say it but 'Arry Redknapp Howard Wilkinson (Leeds) George Graham (various) That's 22. I can continue if need be.
benjii Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 Don Revie (Leeds) Bill Nicholson (Spurs) Sir Bobby (various) Rafa Benitez (Liverpool) Sir Alf Ramsey (England) Jose Mourinho (Chelsea) Jock Stein (Celtic) Arsene Wenger (Arsenal) Sir Matt Busby (United) Brian Clough (Derby/Forest) Bob Paisley (Liverpool) Bill Shankley (Liverpool) Sir Alex Ferguson (United) Ron Greenwood (West Ham/England) Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool) Martin O'Neill (Leicester/Celtic) Graham Taylor (various) Howard Kendall (various) Ron Atkinson (various) Sorry to say it but 'Arry Redknapp Howard Wilkinson (Leeds) George Graham (various) That's 22. I can continue if need be. No, that's fine. How can Redknapp be judged better though? The way I see it their achievements are pretty much the same (although I don't recall Redknapp ever managing a club into second place in the top tier and Redknapp doesn't have the international career Lawrie had), however Redknapp's achievements are more dependent on throwing money all over the place.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 No, that's fine. How can Redknapp be judged better though? The way I see it their achievements are pretty much the same (although I don't recall Redknapp ever managing a club into second place in the top tier and Redknapp doesn't have the international career Lawrie had), however Redknapp's achievements are more dependent on throwing money all over the place. Redknapp is right on the cuff, I agree. I may remove that one actually. To be honest I think his record is very similar, but I'm happy to remove this pr!ck.
saintbletch Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 So it seems that due to a lack of thorough research on the OP's behalf this thread has descended into farce. In an effort to interpret the original question in light of the disclosures below it appears that we now have two questions. 1) Was Lawrie McMenemy one of the 20 best post-war managers in English football in 1980? 2) Should Lawrie McMenemy or his agent be more open in the way LM is promoted for after dinner speaking engagements? I'd answer 1) probably and 2) don't care.
Wes Tender Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 Apologies for my mistake on Rafa. So we shall replace him with Potts, manager of Burnley's League 1 champions in the 1960's or how about Stokoe? First names Wes? I'll give you a clue the first one is called Harry. BTW I don't dispute McMenemy was our greatest manager but I think he or his agent is using poetic licence IMO to sell him as one of the top 20 managers in the post war English Game and that's ignoring 25 years from 1945 to 1960. Does anyone have this Guinness Book of Soccer facts and the edition it was quoted in? I do believe that I am older than you and therefore as senility has not yet overtaken me, perfectly capable of remembering Harry Potts and Bobby Stokoe. Stokoe did manage to bring home the FA Cup to Sunderland when they were in the second division, a feat that McMenemy equalled. But apart from that, McMenemy's feats outweighed Stokoe's. Again, recalling Harry Pott's career at Burnley, they were a big name club at the time with a lot of history, but IMO although he was undoubtedly a very good manager, I still believe that when you factor in what was achieved in relation to where the individual clubs were at the time, McMenemy still manages his top 20 place. Other managers mentioned on other peoples' lists have the (various) against the clubs that they managed. When you delve deeper into their records, they are a mixed bag, where they did well at some clubs and not others. As a sweeping generality, if a manager is doing well at a club, they want to keep his services. Granted that if a manager does well at one club, he is head-hunted by another often bigger club, but then again often he doesn't do quite so well there. The classic example was Docherty who said that he had more clubs than Ballesteros(?) and his overall career results were like the proverbial curate's egg. As to whether his agent is using poetic licence to sell his standing in the game to encourage people to book him, does this come as any great surprise to you? Should his agent belittle the achievements of his commodity to please you? As the entire thread shows, it is something debateable, but not conclusively disproved. One thing is for certain though, his name is still well known in football circles and not just in the local area. The obvious thing to do if it bothers you that he does not buy his own matchday tickets, is ask him. It is not your prerogative to make assumptions as to why he might not attend matches nowadays and there could be many perfectly good reasons.
Toussaint Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 Well that is the headline statement if you would like to book Lawrie as your after dinner speaker for the evening at a reasonable £3k - £5k. Not bad work if you can get it and IMO it does make you wonder why he can't pay for his seat at SMS this season. http://www.gordonpoole.com/?ArtistID=1006 It's amazing the Guinness Book of Soccer facts rank's him among the top 20 most successful football managers in post war English football. Now I am no historian but since my first football memories from the early 1970's I think I can come up with a list of 20 more successful managers and if you read is football mangement CV it's not the most inspiring unless you are a Saints fan. Now I appreciate I will take a good kicking over this but putting their Saints sentiments to one side does anybody agree that Lawrie is one of the most successful UK manager's and that he is ranked in the top 20 Guinness book of Soccer facts as one of the most successful managers in post war English football. I accept that may have been the case if the edition of the book being quoted is 1985 but in 2009? Seems inaccurate IMO. Made me smile that he still had to get a dig in at our past chairman for leaving his position as Director of Football and yet didn't give any reason for leaving Northern Ireland or why he decided to have a break from football after a short period in charge of Sunderland. Oh, and not to mention the small matter of a nice windfall from share ownership. Perhaps, if McMenemy had stayed manager at Saints he may have merited his claim to fame and gone on to win more trophies and even improve on that 2nd place but that was very much the top of his manageral slide and it's difficult to agree with the Guinness book of facts. Does anyone agree or do they believe that based on achievements and trophies Lawrie deserves this accolade? go and **** yourself
sadoldgit Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 Has SOGGY not been along yet ??? LOL, and I am the stalker!!!!
Weston Saint Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 See why with the continual sniping? Why Weston prefers your posts to others on here I will never know.That is not strictly correct but I have explained myself in a PM to you.
sadoldgit Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 Hmmm, top 20? How do define a succesful manager? For us certainly the most successful in my lifetime, carrying on form the excellent work of Ted Bates and taking us to a higher level. People like to put our "demise" down t Lowe but I think it started before that. When Lawrie Mac left we were never te same club again. I thought at the time that Nicholl was not the right person to tae us on and I still think that - but that is for another thread.. Whilst his achievements for us put him in a "great" bracket for us - he never repeated any real level of success elsewhere. When I think of great managers I think of people like Robson, Shankley, Paisley, Nicholson, Ramsey, Clough, Revie (although he didn't do himself any favours managing England)...people with big characters who delivered on certain levels year after year. I think people like Redknapp have a long way to go before they could be considered great, as much as he did a great job at Pompey. Still, whatever, Lawrie put Southampton on the map as a real footballing force for a period of time and gave us, possibly, our best ever team. For that he deserves his after dinner speaking fee and his place as a "great" Southampton manager.
VectisSaint Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 To be fair to NC though, the link that he provides states that Lawrie is listed in said publishing. Whether the list has been updated through re-issues is a point of conjucture, but clearly it's his PR team that are using this line to (perhaps) enhance his public CV. Quite true, but of course factually correct as anyone who would take 5 minutes to research would confirm. In 1980 Lawrie was listed in the Top 20 Most Successful managers in England. The book has never been republished as far as I can ascertain. Unfortunately PR Companies do not always publish the full facts, but there is nothing incorrect in what they have written. They are a PR company and wish to promote their clients in the best way possible. As long as they do not lie there is nothing wrong with that, Max Clifford does it all the time. May not be completely ethical but to slag off Lawrie because of this is patently ridiculous. In 1980 he was for sure one of the Top 20 successful managers, probably actually more likely Top 10 or even Top 5. All the arguments on this thread about Benitez or Wenger or Joe Bloggs being better managers were completely irrelevant, because they were not even known in 1980. Of course our resident troll did not think to look into this before he carried on his ridiculous personal anti-McMenemy crusade. As you say who cares really, it just gets people's backs up when the troll is allowed to carry on with these personal insults about one of the most respected characters in the history of our Club, when others who spouted as much personally vindictive stuff as the troll are banned. He is entitled to his opinion, but this is not just opinion it is vindictive, untrue stuff based on his worship of Lowe.
VectisSaint Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 Apologies for my mistake on Rafa. So we shall replace him with Potts, manager of Burnley's League 1 champions in the 1960's or how about Stokoe? First names Wes? I'll give you a clue the first one is called Harry. BTW I don't dispute McMenemy was our greatest manager but I think he or his agent is using poetic licence IMO to sell him as one of the top 20 managers in the post war English Game and that's ignoring 25 years from 1945 to 1960. Does anyone have this Guinness Book of Soccer facts and the edition it was quoted in? There is only one edition, 1980 as far as I can tell. Hence factually correct. I agree his agent is maybe using a little licence, thats what agents do, and why they are often the scum of the earth. I guess Lowe's agent, if he had one, would suggest he was a successful business man, whereas we all know nothing could be further from the truth. Similarly Anthony Pulis#s agent probably suggests he is a professioinal footballer. Do you honestly think everything that Max Clifford says is whiter than white. Of course not, but of course this is not about truth this is about your personal vendetta against Lawrie Mac. By the way 1945-1960 is 15 years, not 25. I don't know if you were around at that time, but quite frankly there was hardly any such thing as a manager, most teams were run by a Secretary or a Committee, and the manager was primarily a trainer. The era of well known managers did not really start until the 1960s. Perhaps you could try listing successful Managers of the era 1945-1960 (without recourse to a reference book or the interweb).
luvaduck Posted 17 October, 2009 Posted 17 October, 2009 Perhaps after a successful couple of weeks on the field we should be magnanimous and accept the pedantry of Nineteen Canteen (and the other Lawrie Mac detractors) It is obvious that the agent is hyping him up – the book quoted is almost thirty years old – surely only semi-blind Saints Fans wearing red and white tinted spectacles could possibly think that he should be considered one of the best UK football managers .- nobody else could possibly agree with us could they? But before we close this thread just check out this list from March 2009 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1158937/THE-LIST-Sportsmails-30-21-greatest-managers-British-football.html Number 27 Good Night
Nineteen Canteen Posted 18 October, 2009 Author Posted 18 October, 2009 Perhaps after a successful couple of weeks on the field we should be magnanimous and accept the pedantry of Nineteen Canteen (and the other Lawrie Mac detractors) It is obvious that the agent is hyping him up – the book quoted is almost thirty years old – surely only semi-blind Saints Fans wearing red and white tinted spectacles could possibly think that he should be considered one of the best UK football managers .- nobody else could possibly agree with us could they? But before we close this thread just check out this list from March 2009 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1158937/THE-LIST-Sportsmails-30-21-greatest-managers-British-football.html Number 27 Good Night Interesting source - The Daily Mail who not only ran a top 50 manager in the British game but felt the need to differentiate top 50 English internationals and have a category for the top 50 black internationals. IMO I would hate to use the Daily Mail and their right wing holier than thou agenda as source for the definitive statement on any subject. Hardly surprising given Lawrie's MBE and military background he should figure so highly despite Southampton being the pinnacle of his career. As an assistant to Taylor for England can anyone remember the footage of that game against Holland. Taylor lost the plot and bent Lawrie's ear and do you remember the sage words of advice Taylor's assistant game him? Any manager who is given the greatest honour in any capacity to manage their country should be above an assistant manager of their country or failed manager of a small footballing nation such as Northern Ireland. Not sure what the Daily Mail's criteria was but is McMenemy better than Graham, Hodgson, Mercer, Saunders and even Venables? I don't think so and to try and justify otherwise is simply thinly disguised prejudiced. Talking of which did the Daily Mail run a top 50 for black goalkeepers? Colour or race should be irrelevant just like their oddly biased and unbalanced polls. Perhaps, Lawrie has a subscription? Might explain his, IMO, spolit I use to be somebody at this club act so why should I pay. A tad self-centred and ignorant to the many Saints fans who have been buying season tickets for decades without the luxury of living off one trophy and the highest finish the club had achieved and then leaving us with the job half done and ruining his own career in the process IMO. A great pity, if only he had emulated Bob Stokoe and won a trophy for Sunderland, he may have made the top 30 and we wouldn't have the need for this thread. Funny old game.
hamster Posted 18 October, 2009 Posted 18 October, 2009 This goes to show how the press can get it wrong too: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1156662/THE-LIST-Sportsmails-footballs-biggest-traitors.html Anyway, I haven't seen reference to the great Bertie Mee here yet, what a top bloke. Also, if we were talking about the top 20 English managers I am pretty sure LM would be in there regardless of our biases.
luvaduck Posted 18 October, 2009 Posted 18 October, 2009 It certainly is a funny old game I am sorry I did not read this message-board’s small print about choice of source material – which makes it very difficult because most of this country’s national and local press have owners of a right-wing persuasion Also makes it difficult to watch matches on the television which are hosted by Sky – so presumably we should not watch Sky Sports News or Soccer Saturday – and indirectly we should not actually go to the games because the whole system is underpinned by Sky’s money And while we are talking about being whiter than white – George Graham and Terry Venables anyone??
SaintRobbie Posted 18 October, 2009 Posted 18 October, 2009 Redknapp is right on the cuff, I agree. I may remove that one actually. To be honest I think his record is very similar, but I'm happy to remove this pr!ck. Although Arry's best ever season may still be about to come.
eurosaint Posted 18 October, 2009 Posted 18 October, 2009 Interesting source - The Daily Mail who not only ran a top 50 manager in the British game but felt the need to differentiate top 50 English internationals and have a category for the top 50 black internationals. IMO I would hate to use the Daily Mail and their right wing holier than thou agenda as source for the definitive statement on any subject. Hardly surprising given Lawrie's MBE and military background he should figure so highly despite Southampton being the pinnacle of his career. As an assistant to Taylor for England can anyone remember the footage of that game against Holland. Taylor lost the plot and bent Lawrie's ear and do you remember the sage words of advice Taylor's assistant game him? Any manager who is given the greatest honour in any capacity to manage their country should be above an assistant manager of their country or failed manager of a small footballing nation such as Northern Ireland. Not sure what the Daily Mail's criteria was but is McMenemy better than Graham, Hodgson, Mercer, Saunders and even Venables? I don't think so and to try and justify otherwise is simply thinly disguised prejudiced. Talking of which did the Daily Mail run a top 50 for black goalkeepers? Colour or race should be irrelevant just like their oddly biased and unbalanced polls. Perhaps, Lawrie has a subscription? Might explain his, IMO, spolit I use to be somebody at this club act so why should I pay. A tad self-centred and ignorant to the many Saints fans who have been buying season tickets for decades without the luxury of living off one trophy and the highest finish the club had achieved and then leaving us with the job half done and ruining his own career in the process IMO. A great pity, if only he had emulated Bob Stokoe and won a trophy for Sunderland, he may have made the top 30 and we wouldn't have the need for this thread. Funny old game. On what factual basis do you make this statement, may I ask ???
eurosaint Posted 18 October, 2009 Posted 18 October, 2009 This goes to show how the press can get it wrong too: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1156662/THE-LIST-Sportsmails-footballs-biggest-traitors.html Anyway, I haven't seen reference to the great Bertie Mee here yet, what a top bloke. Also, if we were talking about the top 20 English managers I am pretty sure LM would be in there regardless of our biases. Check out post #54 where the highly knowledgable Eurosaint gave him a mention !!
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